Panama City Airport on hold

SJ:

I can see your point regarding beach space, traffic congestion, and crap food franchises. I agree 100%. All of the above will probably get much worse over time and it can't be stopped. I avoid the peak season partly because of beach space, lack of privacy, traffic, and mainly... the unbearable heat.

Little Fish

SJ:

I can see your point regarding beach space, traffic congestion, and crap food franchises. I agree 100%. All of the above will probably get much worse over time and it can't be stopped. I avoid the peak season partly because of beach space, lack of privacy, traffic, and mainly... the unbearable heat.

Little Fish

Well, we are getting a bit off topic, but what do you think is so great about Destin?

SJ:

I'll try and make this brief...

I like the architectural design of newer properties, which has enhanced the image of the town. I like the fact that much of Destin is surrounded by golf courses. I like the upscale restaurants such as Flemings, Tommy Bahama's, Elephant Walk, Seagar's, Chop's, Beachwalk Cafe etc. I enjoy the down home Southern breakfasts at the Donut Hole, and when I'm in the mood for something different, I pop on into Another Broken Egg for their delicious Salmon Benny.

My wife enjoys the shopping facilities, such as Grand Boulevard and the Silver Sands Outlet Mall. Additionally, I believe Baytown Wharf was a positive addition to the area as it's a nice place to catch free concerts under the stars. In general, I enjoy the upscale feel that is coming to the region. I hope this also happens in PCB and suspect it will.

Little Fish

Destin also has no tatoo parlors and "blue haze" smoke shops. Hurricane Opel took care of a lot of Destin crap and it had to be rebuilt new. I spend a lot of time in Destin and PC Beach, theres no comparison, Destin is much more
attractive but is crowded; have you ever been to PC in the summer, its kind of crowded too. I like the beaches in PC better because they are so available not like in Destin. The signage and general architectural ambiance in PC is rude and crude but with the new condos this is improving.

PCB has the most potential because Destin is pretty much done.

Let's get back to the whole airport discussion and try to add some perspective. I urge all of you to read the project description, first, which is located here...http://pcairport.pbsjis.com/. Go to the Documents and Presentations link. Click on Basis of Design Report. Click on the project desciption folder and, then, the project descriptin .pdf file.

Now, any of the pilots on the board will back me up on this, but the word "international in the name only means that customs will be available on site which means any high roller can fly into PC from outside the country and clear customs. It's a "point of entry" into the USA.

Regarding the A-380 / 747 fantacies...
The longest planned runway is only 8400 feet long. The following is copied directly from the project description.

1.1.1 Main Runway System
Runway 16-34 will serve as the primary runway for the airport. It will initially be designed for a category (CAT) I precision instrument approach with visibility minimums of greater than or equal to 2,400 feet Runway Visible Range (RVR). At a length of 8,400 feet and a width of 150 feet, this runway will be able to accommodate typical operations by narrow-body jet aircraft such as the Airbus 320-200 (A320-200).
A full-length parallel taxiway will be constructed along the west side of the runway. Connecting the parallel taxiway to Runway 16-34, right-angle exit taxiways and high-speed exit taxiways will be properly located to enhance operational capacity. The parallel taxiway will be offset 600 feet from the runway (centerline-to-centerline) to provide the necessary space for high-speed exit taxiways. All taxiways serving Runway 16-34 will be nominally 75 feet wide.
The pavement for the runway and taxiways will consist of a grooved asphalt surface course and will be designed to accommodate narrow-body aircraft such as the A320-200 (greater than 150,000-pound dual wheel loading). The pavement strength will be designed to accommodate the following gross weights:
? Single-Wheel Gear: 100,000 pounds
? Dual-Wheel Gear: 174,000 pounds
? Dual-Tandem: 300,000 pounds

Bottom line is that the new airport will not accomodate (at the time they open) any aircraft larger than what the current airport can already handle. Somewhere down the road, maybe, but way way down that road...

I'd like to see it happen someday, but it won't be for a while. The site can handle the expansion with no issues...

SJ:

I'll try and make this brief...

I like the architectural design of newer properties, which has enhanced the image of the town. I like the fact that much of Destin is surrounded by golf courses. I like the upscale restaurants such as Flemings, Tommy Bahama's, Elephant Walk, Seagar's, Chop's, Beachwalk Cafe etc. I enjoy the down home Southern breakfasts at the Donut Hole, and when I'm in the mood for something different, I pop on into Another Broken Egg for their delicious Salmon Benny.

My wife enjoys the shopping facilities, such as Grand Boulevard and the Silver Sands Outlet Mall. Additionally, I believe Baytown Wharf was a positive addition to the area as it's a nice place to catch free concerts under the stars. In general, I enjoy the upscale feel that is coming to the region. I hope this also happens in PCB and suspect it will.

Little Fish

Actually, all of the things you listed are located in SoWal, not Destin. Destin in a different beast.

SJ:

Ok, your point is well taken. I just looked at a map of the area and never realized that Walton County extended beyond Miramar Beach going West. Most of the positive things I discussed are indeed located in Walton County. Nevertheless, I would like to see changes in PCB that reflect changes that have occurred in the Western Walton/ Eastern Okaloosa area.

And just to ensure our posts don't get moved to some obscure location... for the record, I'm excited about the prospects of the new airport.

Little Fish

Egg-zachery, Uncle Timmy. St Joe could go in there and harvest the 50,000 acres of Pine Trees, then these people wouldn't be crying as loudly about the airport.

Your right. I say forget the new airport and cut the trees. I say we need the wood for hurricane shutters!

Let's get back to the whole airport discussion and try to add some perspective. I urge all of you to read the project description, first, which is located here...http://pcairport.pbsjis.com/. Go to the Documents and Presentations link. Click on Basis of Design Report. Click on the project desciption folder and, then, the project descriptin .pdf file.

Now, any of the pilots on the board will back me up on this, but the word "international in the name only means that customs will be available on site which means any high roller can fly into PC from outside the country and clear customs. It's a "point of entry" into the USA.

Regarding the A-380 / 747 fantacies...
The longest planned runway is only 8400 feet long. The following is copied directly from the project description.

1.1.1 Main Runway System
Runway 16-34 will serve as the primary runway for the airport. It will initially be designed for a category (CAT) I precision instrument approach with visibility minimums of greater than or equal to 2,400 feet Runway Visible Range (RVR). At a length of 8,400 feet and a width of 150 feet, this runway will be able to accommodate typical operations by narrow-body jet aircraft such as the Airbus 320-200 (A320-200).
A full-length parallel taxiway will be constructed along the west side of the runway. Connecting the parallel taxiway to Runway 16-34, right-angle exit taxiways and high-speed exit taxiways will be properly located to enhance operational capacity. The parallel taxiway will be offset 600 feet from the runway (centerline-to-centerline) to provide the necessary space for high-speed exit taxiways. All taxiways serving Runway 16-34 will be nominally 75 feet wide.
The pavement for the runway and taxiways will consist of a grooved asphalt surface course and will be designed to accommodate narrow-body aircraft such as the A320-200 (greater than 150,000-pound dual wheel loading). The pavement strength will be designed to accommodate the following gross weights:
? Single-Wheel Gear: 100,000 pounds
? Dual-Wheel Gear: 174,000 pounds
? Dual-Tandem: 300,000 pounds

Bottom line is that the new airport will not accommodate (at the time they open) any aircraft larger than what the current airport can already handle. Somewhere down the road, maybe, but way way down that road...

I'd like to see it happen someday, but it won't be for a while. The site can handle the expansion with no issues...

I am a pilot and work with a land use planner in the area. Long runways are coming to accommodate the A-380.

I am a pilot and work with a land use planner in the area. Long runways are coming to accommodate the A-380.

Assuming the taxiways and runways as currently planned are stressed for the weights specified. And they later want to accomodate an A380, a longer runway is not the only thing required.


They will also have to completly remove all the concrete/asphalt from the runways and taxiways and repour them much thicker to accomodate the A380 weight. The A380 is not only the largest commercial aircraft, it is also the heaviest and would literally break apart the taxiways if they are stressed according to the info posted above.

JMHO,
Flyguy

Assuming the taxiways and runways as currently planned are stressed for the weights specified. And they later want to accomodate an A380, a longer runway is not the only thing required.


They will also have to completly remove all the concrete/asphalt from the runways and taxiways and repour them much thicker to accomodate the A380 weight. The A380 is not only the largest commercial aircraft, it is also the heaviest and would literally break apart the taxiways if they are stressed according to the info posted above.

JMHO,
Flyguy

The concrete will be poured for future flights.

After closer examination of the weight bearing and runway length. I don't think the airport will be able to handle any commercial aircraft with the range to fly from Europe. The smallest international aircraft (ex. Boeing 757) won't have the range to go from Europe to PCB. And the next step up (ex. Boeing 767) is too heavy.

I have to agree that for now the international part of the name will apply to small business jets.

JMHO,
Flyguy

I don't believe the intention has ever been to have international commerical flights....perhaps some of the hype implied that, but I don't believe any of the plans actually call for it....just my cynical opinion!

After closer examination of the weight bearing and runway length. I don't think the airport will be able to handle any commercial aircraft with the range to fly from Europe. The smallest international aircraft (ex. Boeing 757) won't have the range to go from Europe to PCB. And the next step up (ex. Boeing 767) is too heavy.

I have to agree that for now the international part of the name will apply to small business jets.

JMHO,
Flyguy

How about cargo? If you have cargo jets going outside of the US, your airport can be an International Airport.

How about cargo? If you have cargo jets going outside of the US, your airport can be an International Airport.

International means nothing more than Customs services are available which applies to pax and freight. Based on the initial build, though, cargo ops out of there are a future endeavor. In order to have international freight, there will have to be bonded and secure areas at the airport for international freight. I don't recall seeing that but may have missed it.

I don't dispute that the airport will be able to handle huge birds at some point, but based on the proposal for the initial build it's not happening for a while and will require extensive taxiway and runway rework based on what they are currently spec-ed for.

Minimum FAA requirements to handle something the size of an A-380...weight not withstanding...

200 foot wide runways and 100 foot wide taxiways. The new airport is not being built to handle them in any manner. My belief is that it is a rumor run wild...

After closer examination of the weight bearing and runway length. I don't think the airport will be able to handle any commercial aircraft with the range to fly from Europe. The smallest international aircraft (ex. Boeing 757) won't have the range to go from Europe to PCB. And the next step up (ex. Boeing 767) is too heavy.

I have to agree that for now the international part of the name will apply to small business jets.

JMHO,
Flyguy

What about South America?

What about South America?

The large southern cities like Rio, Santiago, Buenos Aires are too far. But I would think anything north of the Equator would be in range. And all of Central America and the Caribbean would be accessible to the airport as currently designed.

JMHO,
Flyguy

International cargo ops are certainly possible. But I think any type of a hub is very unlikely. No cargo carrier could run a hub of any size if their heavy lift aircraft could not use the airport.

I suppose I find this topic interesting because I am actively shopping property in PCB and I constantly hear all of these opinions from the realtors of thousands of visitors a day arriving from all over the world at the new airport.

And of course they say that now is the best time to buy before everyone else figures out the wave of buyers will soon be flying in.

I will probably buy but the airport is not a factor, just trying to figure how low that market will go before I jump in.

JMHO,
Flyguy

U.S. Court of Appeals Rules Decisively Against Legal Challenge from Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) and Florida Sierra Club


Jacksonville, Florida - (December 10, 2007) - The St. Joe Company (NYSE: JOE) today announced that the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit has affirmed a U.S. District Court ruling in favor of a Regional General Permit (RGP) issued by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) in 2004. The court in its ruling rejected an appeal by the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) and the Florida Sierra Club of an earlier U.S. District Court decision that had also validated the permit. JOE intervened in the case.
As a result of the court's ruling, 33,000 acres of environmentally-special lands in south Bay and Walton Counties will be permanently protected at no expense to the public.

The appeals court affirmed the lower court's decision that allows a watershed approach to USACE environmental permitting as an alternative to individual Section 404 "dredge and fill" permits which tend to promote piecemeal environmental protection with significantly less connectivity between protected parcels.



The permitting process upheld by the court allows JOE, as the landowner and permit applicant, to implement a large-scale environmental and development plan for 48,150 acres in Walton and Bay Counties contiguous to the West Bay Sector, the 75,000-acre master planned project in Bay County to be anchored by a new site for the Panama City - Bay County International Airport and the 41,000-acre West Bay Preservation Area. JOE, along with environmental groups and the community, also employed a watershed-level environmental planning process for the West Bay Sector.
"We are very pleased the appeals court upheld the district court's decision and reasoning," said Peter S. Rummell, chairman and CEO of JOE. "JOE joined with a coalition of local and national environmental groups, governmental agencies and environmental science experts in an effort to create a model for large-scale ecological protection across an entire region at the watershed level. It is unfortunate that the NRDC did not join in the cooperative process that put environmental planning ahead of development, and instead, chose confrontational litigation. We believe that when the parties involved have similar objectives, a collaborative approach, as this ruling affirms, can produce a far better environmental result."
"Protecting the best of Florida while at the same time planning for the future is going to require new and innovative approaches to land planning," said Rummell. "But most important, it's going to require cooperation and collaboration from companies and organizations that have been opponents in the past. With this ruling we have an opportunity to establish a new paradigm, one in which tens of thousands of environmentally special acres can be preserved for our children and grandchildren at no cost to the taxpayer."



More than 70 percent of the land covered by the RGP, approximately 33,000 acres that includes significant high-quality wetlands, will be permanently protected. Development is allowed on only 30 percent of the land, or approximately 15,000 acres. "Protection of water resources is critical to ensure the high-quality of the surface water for the residents of the region," said Rummell. "The plan implemented by this RGP also creates a wildlife corridor extending from Choctawhatchee Bay to St. Andrews Bay to protect and preserve forever the ecological integrity and biological diversity of one of Northwest Florida's most important watersheds."
"Environmental planning should extend beyond the lifespan of one landowner, one company or one group," said Rummell. "We believe the planning framework implemented with this permit, which goes well beyond customary regulatory requirements, provides permanent protection for some of the most environmentally sensitive areas in Northwest Florida, safeguards important water resources and protects the beauty and environmental integrity of the region for generations to come."

I hear that the buyers of the current airport site plopped down $56 million deposit into an escrow account today which will apply toward the purchase.

http://www.wjhg.com/home/headlines/12341171.html

The Panama City Airport relocation project is facing more legal trouble. One of the groups opposing it has asked for an emergency motion to stay it's appeal of the F-A-A's decision to build the new airport in West Bay.
The hearing on the appeal was supposed to take place next week on December 18th. But, based on the motion to stay, filed by the group "Friends of P-F-N, the U-S Court of Appeals' Second Circuit in New York has tentatively set a January 8th hearing date.
Friends of P-F-N joined the Natural Resources Defense Council, and Defenders of Wildlife in appealing the F-A-A's decision to allow the airport relocation. They're challenging the West Bay site, saying, among many other reasons, the airport and the construction project itself will damage the wetlands and the environment.
The Second Circuit Court of Appeals approved a procedural pause 2-weeks ago, to allow all of the groups to present their arguments. Friends of P-F-N is the only one of the 3-groups asking for the stay. The group claims it must have the stay or it's case will be irreparably harmed.
But the F-A-A's attorneys, filed an emergency motion late Monday afternoon, saying that's not the case.
The attorneys say the Friends of P-F-N have not demonstrated any likelihood of winning the case, and therefore should not be granted the delay. The F-A-A is asking the court to schedule an emergency hearing on the motion for a stay.
The Panama City ? Bay County Airport Authority also filed an emergency motion late Monday afternoon, asking the court to vacate the stay, and schedule arguments as soon as possible. It's attorneys' claim the appeals court did not consider the airports arguments, and rubber-stamped the appeal.
To the average person, a 3-week delay might not seem like a long time. But the Airport Authority says timing is crucial right now. Board members have 90-days to ratify it's contract with Phoenix Construction for the first phase of the airport construction.
That 90-day window runs out on January 16th, about a week after the new proposed hearing date.
Also, the F-A--A is not allowing the local airport officials to draw on any of the 26-million dollars it allocated for the new airport. That money comes from the passenger facility charge tacked-onto all airline tickets.
Airport Authority board members say the delay could severely hurt the chances of getting a new airport.
There?s no word yet as to when the court will rule on ant of these motions.
Meanwhile, the Airport Authority did get some good news Monday.
The company buying the old airport property has plunked down it's deposit.
Community Airport Redevelopment deposited 56-and-a-half million dollars Monday in an escrow account. This deposit was part of the contract between "C-A-R" and the airport authority.
The developers, led by former actor Wayne Rogers, cannot take possession of the airport property until the relocation to West Bay is complete.
The overall deal is expected to bring the airport authority approximately 90-million dollars.

and another article ...

http://newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=4798

Today the court has partially reversed the stay and limited construction can now proceed.

Court Order Here

Petitioner Friends of PFN moves this Court for a stay
of the Federal Aviation Administration?s approval of airport
construction pending appeal. The intervenor has moved to
vacate an interim stay granted by this Court. Upon due
consideration, it is ORDERED that the interim stay be
modified to allow for the following work:

? Initial site surveying, including surveying along
existing logging roads, and setting points;
? Surveying and setting perimeter boundaries of the
jurisdictional wetlands, which will flag where the
jurisdictional wetlands are located;
? Silt fencing;
? Positioning of trailers and equipment (the Airport
Sponsor will not install any temporary utilities
until after the Hearing Date);
? Clearing, grubbing, and grading in non-
jurisdictional wetland areas, which includes
removing trees, stumps, and roots and stripping a
layer of topsoil; and
? Grading and stabilizing existing haul roads.​

Wetlands get reprieve


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By CRAIG PITTMAN, Times Staff Writer
Published December 19, 2007



The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has taken the rare step of suspending a permit allowing destruction of 2,000 acres of wetlands in the Florida Panhandle to make way for a new Panama City airport.

The corps, which regulates the destruction of wetlands nationwide, suspended the permit this month after learning that a federal judge had issued a temporary injunction against building the $330-million project. The injunction was against the Federal Aviation Administration for approving the airport, the first to be built in the United States since Sept. 11.

"We're just trying to be cautious," David Hobbie, the head of the corps' regulatory division in Florida, said Tuesday.

A coalition of environmental groups have joined with fans of Panama City's current airport to sue the FAA. They say federal law on airport sites requires picking the least environmentally damaging alternative.

In this case, that would mean leaving the airport at its current site, said Linda Young of the Clean Water Network.

A federal judge granted their request for a temporary injunction, an indication that their case has at least some merit. The case is set to go to trial next month.

The new airport is supposed to be built on 4,000 acres of land about 20 miles north of Panama City, next door to Pine Log State Forest. The land was donated by the state's biggest private landowner, the St. Joe Co., which has plans for developing the 78,000 acres around the new airport.

Supporters say the new airport would help generate growth in a sparsely settled, economically challenged section of the Panhandle.

Opponents such as the Clean Water Network and the Natural Resources Defense Council dislike it for the same reason, contending it's a taxpayer-funded boondoggle that benefits no one but a big developer.

Airport authority vice chairman Bill Cramer complained that the court-ordered delay "is like grounding the space shuttle at T minus five seconds." St. Joe officials did not respond to a request for comment on the suspension of the wetlands permit Tuesday.

In 2002, St. Joe CEO Peter Rummell said the airport is key to the company's plans for the surrounding countryside: homes, stores, offices, hotels, bars, schools, even a barge port. With no airport, he said, those plans would not come to fruition. However, in recent interviews, St. Joe officials have insisted the airport is not a factor in their development plans.

Construction was just about to begin, said airport executive director Randy Curtis. He said work will continue in the non-wetland areas while awaiting the judge's decision.

The court cleared the airport to begin limited construction in those areas after the airport's attorneys argued that halting the project completely would cost the taxpayers more than $1-million a month and might jeopardize its future.

While the permit is suspended, the Army Corps will also investigate new information regarding plans to create about half of the 7-million cubic yards of fill needed for the airport site by pumping all the water out of the dirt. The corps had approved "de-watering" a minor amount of fill. Environmental groups contend using the process on such a large amount of fill could pollute nearby waterways.

The current Panama City airport has a picturesque setting on the city's waterfront convenient to local pilots. But city, county and state officials say the airport on St. Andrews Bay is vulnerable to hurricane storm surge and the runways are too short to handle big jetliners.

However, critics point out that in a county of 161,000 residents, the current airport is so quiet that the control tower shuts down every night at 10. It offers a dozen daily commercial flights - half the number it had five years ago - which they say make the need for a new airport questionable, especially one that at buildout would be bigger than Tampa International.

In a nonbinding referendum in 2004, Bay County voters rejected the airport relocation proposal 54 percent to 46 percent.

But in September, backers of the new airport got clearance from the FAA to use federal money for the new site, and then the corps issued a permit for destroying the wetlands. Officials broke ground on the project Nov. 1.

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