Wonderful family vacation...discouraged by beach issues

Beach Problem two words Beach Vendors

Beach Problem two words Beach Vendors

I don't disagree. And it's quite naive for anyone to think that there will be beach vendors as they operate today if customary use is passed, and it's highly unlikely that it will be passed. But if a judicial ruling granting the public right to all the dry sand, the county will lose it's ability to contradict that ruling. There will not be any reservation of sand to prevent use by the public. Those days will be over.

Shannon

I don't disagree. And it's quite naive for anyone to think that there will be beach vendors as they operate today if customary use is passed, and it's highly unlikely that it will be passed. But if a judicial ruling granting the public right to all the dry sand, the county will lose it's ability to contradict that ruling. There will not be any reservation of sand to prevent use by the public. Those days will be over. Steel1man, I already know your opinion. How do others feel?

Shannon

We are visiting Seagrove at the end of the month, so if we rent chairs and an umbrella then we become a part of the problem. Is this correct? It doesn’t matter why we need to rent, correct. The only problem only 30As beaches are the vendors ... correct?

We are visiting Seagrove at the end of the month, so if we rent chairs and an umbrella then we become a part of the problem. Is this correct? It doesn’t matter why we need to rent, correct. The only problem only 30As beaches are the vendors ... correct?

I'm not sure I said any of that. What I said was, if customary use is declared by the court, then the beach vendor situation will change dramatically.

We are visiting Seagrove at the end of the month, so if we rent chairs and an umbrella then we become a part of the problem. Is this correct? It doesn’t matter why we need to rent, correct. The only problem only 30As beaches are the vendors ... correct?

There is nothing wrong with our visitors renting chairs and umbrellas. What IS a problem is when those chairs sit empty for hours and sometimes whole days with no one using them, particularly if they are on public beach. There are ways of handling this that don't reserve space without the customer actually enjoying the beach. This is a problem that vendors need to help solve, not an onus for our visiting guests to solve.

I don't disagree. And it's quite naive for anyone to think that there will be beach vendors as they operate today if customary use is passed, and it's highly unlikely that it will be passed. But if a judicial ruling granting the public right to all the dry sand, the county will lose it's ability to contradict that ruling. There will not be any reservation of sand to prevent use by the public. Those days will be over.

Shannon

huh??

Your argument against customary use is that vendors will be excluded? I don't follow.

There is nothing wrong with our visitors renting chairs and umbrellas. What IS a problem is when those chairs sit empty for hours and sometimes whole days with no one using them, particularly if they are on public beach. There are ways of handling this that don't reserve space without the customer actually enjoying the beach. This is a problem that vendors need to help solve, not an onus for our visiting guests to solve.

Thank you! We used to haul chairs and an umbrella from STL but we drive a Honda Civic (great gas mileage but not a ton of room). Also, carrying them from the condo to the beach is not the best thing to do when you have artificial joints. We do use our chairs, unless it rains or we’re making a run to the condo for whatever. We agree that the vendors should be strictly regulated. We would be fine paying on a daily basis when we arrive at the beach, but the vendors don’t seem to operate that way, and they give discounts if you rent for the week. My husband and I want to be the best visitors to 30A as possible because we love it there.

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Thank you! We used to haul chairs and an umbrella from STL but we drive a Honda Civic (great gas mileage but not a ton of room). Also, carrying them from the condo to the beach is not the best thing to do when you have artificial joints. We do use our chairs, unless it rains or we’re making a run to the condo for whatever. We agree that the vendors should be strictly regulated. We would be fine paying on a daily basis when we arrive at the beach, but the vendors don’t seem to operate that way, and they give discounts if you rent for the week. My husband and I want to be the best visitors to 30A as possible because we love it there.

We bring down everything we need and use for the day for our group of 15, 7 adults & 8 children, in a small collapsible wagon that we also use when we take chairs and a cooler to outdoor concerts, etc. at home. I am trying to repost the picture I posted in the original post that shows our experience this past August with the wall of beach chairs and unbrellas that were set up by 6:00 AM. Getting a spot meant my husband had to be down on the beach by 5:30 AM...he is also 63 and it was not really what you want to do while on vacation. We have been vacationing in sowal since 1991. We are saddened by the state of things and feel especially sorry for the local's that have lost the use of their beaches if they aren't beachfront...it really is a great loss for the average visitor and citizens of South Walton County. I read that the meeting to discuss customary use has been postponed until November. It is such a shame that the root of the problem isn't reasonably addressed...uncontrolled beach vendors. Renting a couple of chairs and umbrella has been the norm as long as we have been going to the beaches Wuchie, but the last few years it has become unreasonable and out of control. FactorFiction is right and exactly what we witnessed throughout the week, many chairs were unoccupied and never occupied throughout the day.

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We bring down everything we need and use for the day for our group of 15, 7 adults & 8 children, in a small collapsible wagon that we also use when we take chairs and a cooler to outdoor concerts, etc. at home. I am trying to repost the picture I posted in the original post that shows our experience this past August with the wall of beach chairs and unbrellas that were set up by 6:00 AM. Getting a spot meant my husband had to be down on the beach by 5:30 AM...he is also 63 and it was not really what you want to do while on vacation. We have been vacationing in sowal since 1991. We are saddened by the state of things and feel especially sorry for the local's that have lost the use of their beaches if they aren't beachfront...it really is a great loss for the average visitor and citizens of South Walton County. I read that the meeting to discuss customary use has been postponed until November. It is such a shame that the root of the problem isn't reasonably addressed...uncontrolled beach vendors. Renting a couple of chairs and umbrella has been the norm as long as we have been going to the beaches Wuchie, but the last few years it has become unreasonable and out of control. FactorFiction is right and exactly what we witnessed throughout the week, many chairs were unoccupied and never occupied throughout the day.

This is typical Public Beach Access....Not my definition of Public !!!

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We bring down everything we need and use for the day for our group of 15, 7 adults & 8 children, in a small collapsible wagon that we also use when we take chairs and a cooler to outdoor concerts, etc. at home. I am trying to repost the picture I posted in the original post that shows our experience this past August with the wall of beach chairs and unbrellas that were set up by 6:00 AM. Getting a spot meant my husband had to be down on the beach by 5:30 AM...he is also 63 and it was not really what you want to do while on vacation. We have been vacationing in sowal since 1991. We are saddened by the state of things and feel especially sorry for the local's that have lost the use of their beaches if they aren't beachfront...it really is a great loss for the average visitor and citizens of South Walton County. I read that the meeting to discuss customary use has been postponed until November. It is such a shame that the root of the problem isn't reasonably addressed...uncontrolled beach vendors. Renting a couple of chairs and umbrella has been the norm as long as we have been going to the beaches Wuchie, but the last few years it has become unreasonable and out of control. FactorFiction is right and exactly what we witnessed throughout the week, many chairs were unoccupied and never occupied throughout the day.

I agree that it’s a problem, but are there other beaches in the US that have figured out a solution so that the beaches along 30A could model that. ( I did see your original photos.) We stayed near Miramar last summer, and it was incredibly crowded on the beach.

This is typical Public Beach Access....Not my definition of Public !!!

It is fairly crowded, but perhaps it’s simply because the beaches and the water are so gorgeous. Aren’t “people” the public?

This is typical Public Beach Access....Not my definition of Public !!!

Is it possible to limit the number of beach set ups that the vendors may use per day at any given access?

Wuchie - FWIW we just returned from Seagrove. Our house was sandwiched in between two public beach walkovers and there was absolutely NO space issue or beach drama whatsoever. There were about 6 beach vendor chairs/umbrella set-ups each day and the majority (gasp!) was non-beach vendor set-ups. Everyone spread out with ample space - one row deep with some gaps - and everyone seemed to be having a good time. You won't have any issues - go have fun!

But I know - I too had the audacity to suggest beach vendors were a nice service for those of us who are visiting and don't / can't bring our own beach set-up (had a few dislikes from this crowd for saying such a thing and suggesting from a visual standpoint they look nice - it is the photographer in me, what can I say).

Personally we always avoid high-season and try to avoid crowds at all costs. We'll never stay in any place with huge condos or during peak weeks, etc. I'm there for the beach, not to be annoyed by other people - I get enough of that at my day job.

It has been a few years since we were there as we can't afford to go every year. It was nice but busier than expected. I'd likely not go again in September. Also a bit sad to see such huge houses taking over everything (We stayed in a 1950's 1200 sq. foot house). I get it, it is all about the $$$ - everything is, especially in a tourist town.

I don't disagree. And it's quite naive for anyone to think that there will be beach vendors as they operate today if customary use is passed, and it's highly unlikely that it will be passed. But if a judicial ruling granting the public right to all the dry sand, the county will lose it's ability to contradict that ruling. There will not be any reservation of sand to prevent use by the public. Those days will be over.

Shannon

No. If we are labelling and judging, then you are quite naive. Not mutually exclusive. Seperate issuse even if they intersect.

Mutual exclusivity.

"In logic and probability theory, two events are mutually exclusive or disjoint if they cannot both occur. A clear example is the set of outcomes of a single coin toss, which can result in either heads or tails, but not both."

Wuchie - FWIW we just returned from Seagrove. Our house was sandwiched in between two public beach walkovers and there was absolutely NO space issue or beach drama whatsoever. There were about 6 beach vendor chairs/umbrella set-ups each day and the majority (gasp!) was non-beach vendor set-ups. Everyone spread out with ample space - one row deep with some gaps - and everyone seemed to be having a good time. You won't have any issues - go have fun!

But I know - I too had the audacity to suggest beach vendors were a nice service for those of us who are visiting and don't / can't bring our own beach set-up (had a few dislikes from this crowd for saying such a thing and suggesting from a visual standpoint they look nice - it is the photographer in me, what can I say).

Personally we always avoid high-season and try to avoid crowds at all costs. We'll never stay in any place with huge condos or during peak weeks, etc. I'm there for the beach, not to be annoyed by other people - I get enough of that at my day job.

It has been a few years since we were there as we can't afford to go every year. It was nice but busier than expected. I'd likely not go again in September. Also a bit sad to see such huge houses taking over everything (We stayed in a 1950's 1200 sq. foot house). I get it, it is all about the $$$ - everything is, especially in a tourist town.

Thank you for the update! We are looking forward to visiting Seagrove during the first week of October. We will be renting a beach set up. Hopefully, the red tide won’t create a problem.

No. If we are labelling and judging, then you are quite naive. Not mutually exclusive. Seperate issuse even if they intersect.

"Mutual exclusivity.

In logic and probability theory, two events are mutually exclusive or disjoint if they cannot both occur. A clear example is the set of outcomes of a single coin toss, which can result in either heads or tails, but not both."

1. Can a fee simple owner either directly or indirectly block or interfere with a public access and use easement?

2. Does a set (or several sets) of unoccupied beach chairs on the dry sand have a superior right to a public right of use?

3. Can an owner or agent of owner block a public use easement by demanding payment to use the easement property?

Same questions apply to the county - are the county's rights of use (not including police powers) superior to the public right of use once the public right is affirmed by a court? Do you think the court will grant the ancient custom to the public, limited to space that is not used by beach vendor setups? If so why?

• 1. Can a fee simple owner either directly or indirectly block or interfere with a public access and use easement? No they shouldn't, in regards to customary use, they do. If look at the county website, Gulf Place for example has 2 tiny access points. Do you think they thought their guests and owners were/are resticted to those narrow areas for use of the beach?

2. Does a set (or several sets) of unoccupied beach chairs on the dry sand have a superior right to a public right of use? Currently that is the case but should not be

3. Can an owner or agent of owner block a public use easement by demanding payment to use the easement property? No. But obstructionism does exist.

Same questions apply to the county - are the county's rights of use (not including police powers) superior to the public right of use once the public right is affirmed by a court? No Do you think the court will grant the ancient custom to the public Yes, limited to space that is not used by beach vendor setups? This part does not make sense If so why?

My answers to your question of what I think are in bold above.

Are you equating public use to business use? In your opinion, of course, does public use extend to business use? I don't believe so. Are you asking me to cite court judgements? If so, I'm not a lawyer. I just rely on common sense. Do your own homework. I'm not going to play your game.

We can agree to disagree and CU will not be settled doing news interviews or on a forum but in court. Where I do believe we agree is in limiting the beach vendors.

My answers to your question of what I think are in bold above.

Are you equating public use to business use? In your opinion, of course, does public use extend to business use? I don't believe so. Are you asking me to cite court judgements? If so, I'm not a lawyer. I just rely on common sense. Do your own homework. I'm not going to play your game.

We can agree to disagree and CU will not be settled doing news interviews or on a forum but in court. Where I do believe we agree is in limiting the beach vendors.

Right now there is no court ordered public right to the dry sandy beach. There is no customary use until it is ordered by a court. So the county under home rule has made up it's level of superior rights, businesses (such as beach vendors) have superior rights to public rights per the ordinance. Would you agree with that generally? A beach vendor zone would be a superior right that vendors currently enjoy.

If you think once customary use is ordered that business use will continue to hold a superior right to public use then we disagree. Customary use provides every member of the public with a right to use all of the dry sand without interference and a court order to enforce that right. Do you agree with that? In my opinion, businesses will not be granted that right and will be constrained from any action that interferes with the public's right. This is my basis for my opinion that beach vendor operations will be forced to change.

Can't we all just get along?