Time to buy JOE

**robertsondavies** · 11-05-2010, 08:04 AM

back in 2006 I suggested to folks to short JOE, if they couldn't sell there home in South Walton, as a proxy for doing the same. I think the pendulum has swung ridiculously far to the negative side, and that the Short Joe trade is cooked, done. I think it's time to buy JOE, and lock the shares away for 50 years.

good luck to all.

**30ashopper** · 11-05-2010, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

back in 2006 I suggested to folks to short JOE, if they couldn't sell there home in South Walton, as a proxy for doing the same. I think the pendulum has swung ridiculously far to the negative side, and that the Short Joe trade is cooked, done. I think it's time to buy JOE, and lock the shares away for 50 years.

good luck to all.

Negative cash flow, negative earnings, zero dividend.. plus, Joe's trading in the range it spent most of 1996-2003 in. I don't see it climbing out of that range any day soon.

IMHO there are far better investments out there that offer more immediate returns.

**Koa** · 11-05-2010, 09:50 AM

"immediate returns" or 50 year term, are two very different things.

**seagroovys** · 11-05-2010, 09:50 AM

joe is at 20.00 today, and I think it is a good buy also!

**30ashopper** · 11-05-2010, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Koa

"immediate returns" or 50 year term, are two very different things.

I'll be dead in fifty years.

That's too long of a wait.

**SWGB** · 11-05-2010, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by 30ashopper

I'll be dead in fifty years.

That's too long of a wait.

What about your children or your children's children? It could help them, after all they'll be too busy paying back our debt.

**scooterbug44** · 11-05-2010, 11:56 AM

Far better stocks to buy IMO. Nothing about Joe's recent actions make me think it's a good buy.

**austin101** · 11-05-2010, 06:21 PM

JOE was sued TODAY for securites fraud...story below:

Brower Piven Encourages Investors Who Have Losses in Excess of $100,000 From Investment in The St. Joe Company to Inquire About the Lead Plaintiff Position in Securities Fraud Class Action Lawsuit Before the January 3, 2011 Lead Plaintiff Deadline

STEVENSON, MD -- (Marketwire) -- 11/05/10 -- Brower Piven, A Professional Corporation announces that a class action lawsuit has been commenced in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Florida on behalf of purchasers of the securities of The St. Joe Company ("St. Joe" or the "Company") (NYSE: JOE) during the period between February 19, 2008 and October 12, 2010, inclusive (the "Class Period"), including purchasers of the Company's securities pursuant and/or traceable to the Company's public offering of common stock on or about February 27, 2008.

No class has yet been certified in the above action. Members of the Class will be represented by the lead plaintiff and counsel chosen by the lead plaintiff. If you wish to choose counsel to represent you and the Class, you must apply to be appointed lead plaintiff no later than January 3, 2011 and be selected by the Court. The lead plaintiff will direct the litigation and participate in important decisions including whether to accept a settlement and how much of a settlement to accept for the Class in the action. The lead plaintiff will be selected from among applicants claiming the largest loss from investment in the Company during the Class Period. You are not required to have sold your shares to seek damages or to serve as a Lead Plaintiff.

The complaint accuses the defendants of violations of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 by virtue of the Company's failure to disclose during the Class Period that as the Florida real estate market was in decline, St. Joe was failing to take adequate and required impairments and accounting writedowns on many of its Florida based property developments and that, as a result, St. Joe's financial statements materially overvalued the Company's Florida based property developments and the Company's financial statements were not prepared in accordance with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. According to the complaint, St. Joe's investors were shocked as Greenlight Capital's David Einhorn detailed, on October 13, 2010, at the Value Investing Congress how St. Joe needed to take "substantial impairments" and accounting writedowns on many of its properties, and that further building by the Company "will drive the stock price to zero." The complaint alleges that as a result of the information disclosed by Mr. Einhorn, the value of St. Joe stock declined significantly.

If you have suffered a net loss for all transactions in The St. Joe Company securities during the Class Period, you may obtain additional information about this lawsuit and your ability to become a lead plaintiff by contacting Brower Piven at Brower Piven, A Professional Corporation Home, by email at hoffman@browerpiven.com, by calling 410/415-6616, or at Brower Piven, A Professional Corporation, 1925 Old Valley Road, Stevenson, Maryland 21153. Attorneys at Brower Piven have combined experience litigating securities and class action cases of over 50 years. If you choose to retain counsel, you may retain Brower Piven without financial obligation or cost to you, or you may retain other counsel of your choice. You need take no action at this time to be a member of the class.

CONTACT:
Charles J. Piven
Brower Piven, A Professional Corporation
Stevenson, Maryland
410/415-6616
Email Contact

� 2008 SYS-CON Media Inc.

**SHELLY** · 11-05-2010, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

I think it's time to buy JOE, and lock the shares away for 50 years.

...and what's your second best investment idea?

.

**SHELLY** · 11-05-2010, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by seagroovys

joe is at 20.00 today, and I think it is a good buy also!

JOE just don't make any sense to me as an investment--even at $20 a share, it's still too much to pay for a company that is losing money.

For example...you can pick up a share of Intel (a company that IS making money) for roughly the same price as JOE and get a 2.97% dividend to boot!

(DISCLAIMER: Under no circumstances does the information above represent a recommendation to buy, sell or hold any security.)

**robertsondavies** · 11-06-2010, 12:01 AM

I'll bet a new pair of branded CROX, and a domestic (only) beer at Bud & Alleys in June 2011, that JOE will work out better from November 4th, until May 15, 2011than either the entire index as measured by SPY, or.. or either any ONE of the following:
GLD
CMG
SPG
OPEN

but Shelly won't put his money where his ass

**SWGB** · 11-06-2010, 01:50 AM

I remember when SHELLY pooed all over CROX, which at the time was at 60, crashed when everything else did, but ironically has steadily climbed ever since. Yes, the folks that bought at 60 are still in the red, but the folks that bought at 5 are either rich from when they sold at over 50 or are happy that there investment is still ahead.

The point is that you can look at anything in it's current context and find something negative, but depending on where you are looking there is probably a positive before or after.

**SHELLY** · 11-06-2010, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

I'll bet a new pair of branded CROX, and a domestic (only) beer at Bud & Alleys in June 2011, that JOE will work out better from November 4th, until May 15, 2011than either the entire index as measured by SPY, or.. or either any ONE of the following:
GLD
CMG
SPG
OPEN

but Shelly won't put his money where his ass

Get serious. Why did you pick those stocks over stocks that are equivalent to JOE's PE?

It's a sucker's bet to predict that momentum stocks in the $100+ per share range may not fare as well percentage-wise as a stock that's currently the darling of short-sellers all over Wall Street.

Maybe you can find a player who currently owns 5 PCB condoz he bought for $525K a copy.

I'll ignore the "ass" comment--I've got a snappy comeback, but I'll take the highroad on that one.

(Can I assume making a bet for a cheap beer and a pair of rubber shoes your second best investment idea?)

**SHELLY** · 11-06-2010, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by SWGB

I remember when SHELLY pooed all over CROX, which at the time was at 60, crashed when everything else did, but ironically has steadily climbed ever since.

I did pretty good on CROX (it actually crashed about a year before the big bang)...paid for a nice overseas vacation.

.

**SWGB** · 11-06-2010, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

I did pretty good on CROX (it actually crashed about a year before the big bang)...paid for a nice overseas vacation.

.

At what point did you buy in, the point is would it still be a positive gain for you at this point?

Still watching my Sirius investment at .96 gain.

**SHELLY** · 11-06-2010, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by SWGB

At what point did you buy in, the point is would it still be a positive gain for you at this point?

Still watching my Sirius investment at .96 gain.

Here's a vintage thread from Summer 2007 that will give you some insight to my CROX era....ironically it was titled "Is JOE worth buying?"

http://www.sowal.com/bb/real-estate-...th-buying.html

Doesn't anyone on here have some "new" investment ideas other than gold, real estate, JOE and MLMs? (Scratch that, I really don't want to know.)

.

.

**SWGB** · 11-06-2010, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

Here's a vintage thread from Summer 2007 that will give you some insight to my CROX era....ironically it was titled "Is JOE worth buying?"

http://www.sowal.com/bb/real-estate-...th-buying.html

Doesn't anyone on here have some "new" investment ideas other than gold, real estate, JOE and MLMs? (Scratch that, I really don't want to know.)

.

.

Not really up to picking apart someone's dreams?

**SHELLY** · 11-06-2010, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by SWGB

Not really up to picking apart someone's dreams?

And what "dreams" would they be?

.

**robertsondavies** · 11-08-2010, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

I'll ignore the "ass" comment--I've got a snappy comeback, but I'll take the highroad on that one.

Asking you to put your ass on the line on a wager, and calling you an ass, are quite different to me. So by taking the high road, does that mean you wont' take the wager. If you don't like the yardstick options provided, then let's just measure it against the entire S&P 500.

**30ashopper** · 11-08-2010, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

Here's a vintage thread from Summer 2007 that will give you some insight to my CROX era....ironically it was titled "Is JOE worth buying?"

http://www.sowal.com/bb/real-estate-...th-buying.html

Doesn't anyone on here have some "new" investment ideas other than gold, real estate, JOE and MLMs? (Scratch that, I really don't want to know.)

.

.

Until we see some signs of inflation, how about investing in cash?

**SHELLY** · 11-08-2010, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

Asking you to put your ass on the line on a wager, and calling you an ass, are quite different to me. So by taking the high road, does that mean you wont' take the wager. If you don't like the yardstick options provided, then let's just measure it against the entire S&P 500.

There's no pricing action in the S&P...how about JOE vs. INTC?

And I'll not meet you for a cheap beer & Crocs, but how about a bet that will do some good....say $50 to the other's favorite charity?

Speaking of CROX--up 9% today...yikes!

**robertsondavies** · 11-08-2010, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

There's no pricing action in the S&P...how about JOE vs. INTC?

And I'll not meet you for a cheap beer & Crocs, but how about a bet that will do some good....say $50 to the other's favorite charity?

Speaking of CROX--up 9% today...yikes!

I like your charity idea for a wager that will do good. I do not like betting against INTC. Cash Flow multiple represents real value on INTC, especially when the 10 year treasury note is trading at 38 X 2020 earnings (aka yield).

The bet really is about JOE, so i'd prefer to find some neutral barometer, against which to measure my original volley, that JOE is valuable. Like the S&P or the Dow Jones if you prefer. true there isn't much Pricing Action in those indexes, that's the point I think. If you'd prefer a real estate sub-index or ETF, like IYR for instance, I'd go for that too instead of S&P.

**SHELLY** · 11-08-2010, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

I like your charity idea for a wager that will do good. I do not like betting against INTC. Cash Flow multiple represents real value on INTC, especially when the 10 year treasury note is trading at 38 X 2020 earnings (aka yield).

The bet really is about JOE, so i'd prefer to find some neutral barometer, against which to measure my original volley, that JOE is valuable. Like the S&P or the Dow Jones if you prefer. true there isn't much Pricing Action in those indexes, that's the point I think. If you'd prefer a real estate sub-index or ETF, like IYR for instance, I'd go for that too instead of S&P.

Of course INTC has value--I put that up against the recommendation of JOE in the beginning. I'm neither a speculator, nor an investulator.

I'll take my money, and my ass, off the line then.

Thanks for playing the home game.

.

**robertsondavies** · 11-08-2010, 07:47 PM

Shelly upgrades JOE ??

Now don't get me wrong, it appears Shelly is still not afraid to utter that JOE is screwed, but at the same time, is unwilling to now say/bet that JOE will fare worse than the average stock in the S&P 500 or the DOW.

In wall street talk, Shelly just raised JOE to an "Outperformer" Too bad analyst ratings changes are typically wrong... I think this one is a timely upgrade - reminds me of Meredith Whitney's downgrade/dividend cut call on Citigroup.

UPGRADE baby !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**SHELLY** · 11-08-2010, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

Shelly upgrades JOE ??

Now don't get me wrong, it appears Shelly is still not afraid to utter that JOE is screwed, but at the same time, is unwilling to now say/bet that JOE will fare worse than the average stock in the S&P 500 or the DOW.

In wall street talk, Shelly just raised JOE to an "Outperformer" Too bad analyst ratings changes are typically wrong... I think this one is a timely upgrade - reminds me of Meredith Whitney's downgrade/dividend cut call on Citigroup.

UPGRADE baby !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...are you off your meds again Bob?

.

**robertsondavies** · 11-09-2010, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

...are you off your meds again Bob?

.

I knew the logical deduction above, about you 'upgrading' JOE, would get your little ascerbic mind in insult mode (ala off your meds), instead of dealing with the argument mode.

Thanks for playing, I'll go talk to some adults about this upgrade now.

**Bob** · 11-09-2010, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

...are you off your meds again Bob?

.

my meds are citigroup @ 3.65

**SHELLY** · 11-26-2010, 05:56 PM

Fantasy Portfolio Results (as of market close Nov 26):

STOCK/VALUE/GAIN-LOSS

INTC/$2,035.28/+1.76%

SPY/$1,943.40/-2.83%

JOE/$1,710.46/-14.48%

($2,000 put in each stock effective on market close Nov 4th)

WARNING: Kids, don't try this at home!!!

**homeboy** · 11-27-2010, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

back in 2006 I suggested to folks to short JOE, if they couldn't sell there home in South Walton, as a proxy for doing the same. I think the pendulum has swung ridiculously far to the negative side, and that the Short Joe trade is cooked, done. I think it's time to buy JOE, and lock the shares away for 50 years.

good luck to all.

Most of JOE's holdings are worthless swampland (think of Rivercamps that is a total bust), not prime beachfront like Watersound or Watercolor. Not worth $5 bucks a share.

**robertsondavies** · 11-30-2010, 09:02 AM

[QUOTE=homeboy;710375]Most of JOE's holdings are worthless swampland (think of Rivercamps that is a total bust), not prime beachfront like Watersound or Watercolor. Not worth $5 bucks a share.[/QUOTE

homeboy, sounds like you've done a deep dive analysis on this on a per share/per acre basis. could you please share any details of that analysis... your thoughts on JOE's balance sheet, and on some comparable price per acre sales of acreages bth near the beach, near swamp or pine forest??

**robertsondavies** · 11-30-2010, 09:05 AM

Shelly,

Please keep the portfolio updates coming over the coming months, as the bet unfolds.

You're off to a great start, taking the S&P against JOE. ON a sidenote, I'm not sure who is betting against INTC, but that's fun to watch it go up too, as it should.

**SHELLY** · 11-30-2010, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

Shelly,

Please keep the portfolio updates coming over the coming months, as the bet unfolds.

You're off to a great start, taking the S&P against JOE. ON a sidenote, I'm not sure who is betting against INTC, but that's fun to watch it go up too, as it should.

Welcome back, Matey! How was the cruise?

.

**robertsondavies** · 11-30-2010, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

Welcome back, Matey! How was the cruise?

.

splendid, Roatan has some good snorkeling...

reminded me why Florida is valuable though.... on the way to the beach, everyone in Roatan we saw walking, carried a Mashedi (sic)... since South Walton is now priced like 3rd world Caribbean, there may be some value here afterall.

**SHELLY** · 11-30-2010, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

reminded me why Florida is valuable though.... on the way to the beach, everyone in Roatan we saw walking, carried a Mashedi (sic)... since South Walton is now priced like 3rd world Caribbean, there may be some value here afterall.

...the value takes a bit of a hit when you factor out the opportunity to swim just about year-round and the 24-7 AYCE food fests available on the cruise ships.

Then there's this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc"]YouTube - Indiana Jones : Sword vs. Gun[/ame]

.

**homeboy** · 12-01-2010, 04:17 PM

[quote=robertsondavies;710790]

Originally Posted by homeboy

Most of JOE's holdings are worthless swampland (think of Rivercamps that is a total bust), not prime beachfront like Watersound or Watercolor. Not worth $5 bucks a share.[/QUOTE

homeboy, sounds like you've done a deep dive analysis on this on a per share/per acre basis. could you please share any details of that analysis... your thoughts on JOE's balance sheet, and on some comparable price per acre sales of acreages bth near the beach, near swamp or pine forest??

Sure.

balance sheet looks reasonably healthy, BUT a good chunk of the cash was generated from tax refunds over the past couple of years. Outside these refunds, they are BLEEDING cash. At current burn rate, they will be out of cash in a couple of years with little capacity to borrow due to negative ebitda.

Pull out your excel spreadsheets and do a DCF analysis like I did. Assume they sell all 577,000 acres at 20k acres per year for the next 29 years (only sold about 1k this year). Assume a 10k per acre sales price (way too high, given that the bulk sales have been going in the range of 2-4k recently), 50% ebitda margin (again way too high historically), 39% tax rate, and a 10% discount rate. With these aggressive assumptions, the business isn't even worth $10 per share.

Was that enough detail, or do you need more?

**homeboy** · 12-02-2010, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

back in 2006 I suggested to folks to short JOE, if they couldn't sell there home in South Walton, as a proxy for doing the same. I think the pendulum has swung ridiculously far to the negative side, and that the Short Joe trade is cooked, done. I think it's time to buy JOE, and lock the shares away for 50 years.

good luck to all.

That is absolutely the WORST piece of investment advice EVER. 50 Years? Do you understand JOES business model. They don't sell widgets or services. They have a limited inventory of land. In 50 years, JOE will be out of business. If successful, all land will be sold and remaining cash will be paid out to shareholders (with a terrible return after considering ongoing operating costs, corporate income taxes and personal taxes on the dividend to shareholders upon dissolution) or they will have gone bankrupt long before due to inability to cover operating costs.

At least CROX, INTEL, etc make products and do not have a finite supply of inventory from which to produce revenues and profits.

50 years-you lost that bet the minute you made it.

**Smiling JOe** · 12-02-2010, 05:34 PM

in 50 years, I bet CROX is out of business due to changing trend or lead found in the shoes.

**SWGB** · 12-02-2010, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Smiling JOe

in 50 years, I bet CROX is out of business due to changing trend or lead found in the shoes.

or lack of petroleum.

**SHELLY** · 12-02-2010, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Smiling JOe

in 50 years, I bet CROX is out of business due to changing trend or lead found in the shoes.

The buzz on the Street sez CROX has their R&D teams working on Jetson cars and cryogenic cylinders--I wouldn't count them out yet.

Purchase now and lock away for 50 years.

.

**SHELLY** · 12-03-2010, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

Fantasy Portfolio Results (as of market close Nov 26):

STOCK/VALUE/GAIN-LOSS

INTC/$2,035.28/+1.76%

SPY/$1,943.40/-2.83%

JOE/$1,710.46/-14.48%

($2,000 put in each stock effective on market close Nov 4th)

WARNING: Kids, don't try this at home!!!

Fantasy Portfolio Results (as of market close Dec 3):

STOCK/VALUE/GAIN-LOSS

INTC/$2,068.66/+3.43%

SPY/$2,010.31/+0.52%

JOE/$1,847.29/-7.64%

($2,000 put in each stock effective on market close Nov 4th)

**robertsondavies** · 12-03-2010, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by homeboy

That is absolutely the WORST piece of investment advice EVER. 50 Years? Do you understand JOES business model. They don't sell widgets or services. They have a limited inventory of land. In 50 years, JOE will be out of business. If successful, all land will be sold and remaining cash will be paid out to shareholders (with a terrible return after considering ongoing operating costs, corporate income taxes and personal taxes on the dividend to shareholders upon dissolution) or they will have gone bankrupt long before due to inability to cover operating costs.

At least CROX, INTEL, etc make products and do not have a finite supply of inventory from which to produce revenues and profits.

50 years-you lost that bet the minute you made it.

So you think CROX or INTEL have more longevity and lasting ability to innovate, than a company that is a Land Trust? Thanks for your opinions though, appreciate that you think its a slam dunk that Intel will not be usurped or surpassed, yet Real Estate in Florida to hold for the next 50 years is a guaranteed loser now??? Dude where were you in 2005?

**robertsondavies** · 12-03-2010, 06:35 PM

[quote=homeboy;711288]

Originally Posted by robertsondavies

Sure.

balance sheet looks reasonably healthy, BUT a good chunk of the cash was generated from tax refunds over the past couple of years. Outside these refunds, they are BLEEDING cash. At current burn rate, they will be out of cash in a couple of years with little capacity to borrow due to negative ebitda.

Pull out your excel spreadsheets and do a DCF analysis like I did. Assume they sell all 577,000 acres at 20k acres per year for the next 29 years (only sold about 1k this year). Assume a 10k per acre sales price (way too high, given that the bulk sales have been going in the range of 2-4k recently), 50% ebitda margin (again way too high historically), 39% tax rate, and a 10% discount rate. With these aggressive assumptions, the business isn't even worth $10 per share.

Was that enough detail, or do you need more?

Dude, you don't use DCF's on unpredictable, cyclical businesses. second, a 10% discount rate is laughable. Third, Einhorn had a price target of $20 when the stock was much higher, and recently updated that to low teens, so he could cover his short more profitability. Fourth, Einhorn's next 13-F report will show he coverd a bunch, if not all of his bet over the last 4 weeks. Will your 13-F show something different? Did you get short recently?

**Smiling JOe** · 12-03-2010, 07:25 PM

Wow, JOE is up 8% in one week.
INTC up 1.6% in same week.

Am I reading that right? Surely it must be a flaw.

**SHELLY** · 12-03-2010, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Smiling JOe

Wow, JOE is up 8% in one week.
INTC up 1.6% in same week.

Am I reading that right? Surely it must be a flaw.

SJ..."you are starting to sound like people who looked at their home value every day. I thought it was supposed to be about time in the market, not timing the market."

It's really not "up"...it's just less negative--not unusual for a stock that's getting jerked around by 2 huge hedge funds.

(And INTC did pay out their quarterly dividend on Wednesday too...)

.

**Smiling JOe** · 12-04-2010, 10:25 AM

Nice quote, but you said it was a game and you wanted to regularly monitor it, didn't you? JOE beat INTC for the week by more than 3 times, right?

**SHELLY** · 12-04-2010, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Smiling JOe

Nice quote, but you said it was a game and you wanted to regularly monitor it, didn't you? JOE beat INTC for the week by more than 3 times, right?

Week-over-week if JOE "beat" anything, it was its own previous week's performance...it's still in 3rd place anyway you look at it.

If it makes you feel any better, I will actually write the statement "JOE beat INTC this week!!" when it happens--trust me on this. It very well might happen before the game is over.

.

**SWGB** · 12-04-2010, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by SHELLY

SJ..."you are starting to sound like people who looked at their home value every day. I thought it was supposed to be about time in the market, not timing the market."

It's really not "up"...it's just less negative--not unusual for a stock that's getting jerked around by 2 huge hedge funds.

(And INTC did pay out their quarterly dividend on Wednesday too...)

.

That's only true if you bought higher than the current price.

**SHELLY** · 12-04-2010, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by SWGB

That's only true if you bought higher than the current price.

It was "bought" higher than the current price--all were "bought" at the market close price on Nov 4, $2000 worth per stock:

INTC: $20.97 (Current share price: $21.69)
SPY: $122.26 (Current share price: $122.89)
JOE: $20.17 (Current share price: $18.63)

.

**incredible1** · 12-07-2010, 12:03 AM

I think it was Warren Buffett who suggested
If you use a product or service, and like it, and you can own a piece of it via direct ownership or on the market, buy it.

he also has the buy and hold philosophy.

a personal fav right now is logmein -- fighting it out with Citrix (gotomypc)

Logme in is suprior, faster and more mobile oriented.
LogMeIn Taunts Cisco and Citrix With Free Web Meeting App - NYTimes.com

How about that netflix since Jan last year, $50 to almost $200
wow.