Double Red Flag Violators

[enfuego]

From WJHG... KUDOS to Sheriff McKeithen

It is my understanding that you can be fined or arrested.

The Bay County Commission this morning, at the urging of Sheriff Frank McKeithen, adopted an emergency ordinance allowing violators of the double red flags to be arrested.
There have been several hundred rescues and 10 drownings at Panama City Beach this year, many of them while double red flags are flying indicating the beaches are closed to swimmers.
Life Guards, Police and Rescue workers say many swimmers went right back in the water after being instructed to get out.
The County commission adopted the emergency ordinance by unanimous 4 to 0 vote. Commission Jerry Girvin was absent because of a broken leg.
The Ordinance took affect when it was adopted shortly after nine this morning.

[scooterbug44]

Jurisdiction issues aside, I am QUITE happy they are doing something to punish those idiots!

[Smiling JOe]

Bay County = up to 60 days in the slammer, and up to $500 fine per occurrence.

GRS, I don't think it applies to surfers on tethered boards.

[jodiFL]

I personally think that the last thing we need is yet another ordinance to deal with this. I think the "Baker Act" ( There must be evidence that the person a) has a mental illness (as defined in the Baker Act) and b) is a harm to self, harm to others, or self neglectful (as defined in the Baker Act). Examinations may last up to 72 hours) could be used for this just as easily. But with revenues down state wide this is just another way to pad the coffers at the expense of visitors.

[dogflyguy]

Hey scooter bug

not all of them are Idiots, sure the ones that go back in after being dragged out or told by authorities it's unsafe should be baker acted or jailed for their own safety but. Even i a very good swimmer and long time resident went Boogie boarding with some family at mexico bch which is part of bay county and their were no red flags to be seen on that day (the same day 2 people drowned on pc beach)and i saw and helped out several tourist and local people get back in and i personally went around to families with small children and elderly to warn them there was a strong undertow and educate them about it. As Floridians i think more of us that go to the beach alot should do this as well. sure you will get some peolple who still don't care. but just think we may save a life of a non informed A.K.A Idiot oneday!!!. case in point read this Editorial. thank you Tim O




VIEWPOINTS: Red-flag warnings don’t reach everyone

Comments 0 | Recommend 7
August 14, 2008 08:00:00 AM
My brother-in-law was one of those who drowned recently. All last week, we read comment after comment about how stupid he and the others who drowned or nearly drowned were to go into the water when the double-red flags were posted. How easy it is to be smug and self-righteous - until it is your loved one who is pulled lifeless out of the surf.
I assure you my brother-in-law was neither reckless nor stupid. The truth is that none of us saw those flags. They are so far back up onto the beach that they cannot be seen from the deck of our rental house or even from the dunes. They can only be seen from the beach itself, and not by looking straight down the beach but by turning around and looking back at an angle. My sister and brother-in-law looked for the flags as they were walking down to the water and didn't see them. So, thinking that perhaps this area of the beach had no flags, and seeing several people including children in the water, they proceeded with their swim. If either had seen the flags, they would not have gone in and our family tragedy would have been avoided.
I realize that there are many people who deliberately ignore the warnings, and it is impossible to save everyone from their own stupidity. But you must also realize that the warnings are not getting to everyone on the beach. Yes, the public accesses have a list of the flag colors and what they mean, but that is not good enough. Every beachfront rental property should be required to have the same signs posted on their private beach access as well, plus an arrow pointing in the direction of the nearest flag. It shouldn't be that expensive or difficult to implement, and it could save lives.
Loa Sweat, Houston

[scooterbug44]

Sorry, I stand by my statement that they are idiots.

Part of the reason that the Sheriff wanted the ordinance is because people WHO ARE FULLY AWARE OF THE FLAG CONDITIONS go right back in the water after being personally informed of the danger and that they shouldn't be in there by lifeguards, police, etc.

I do not personally know how pervasive the flag poles and warnings are on the Panama City beaches, but it takes a special kind of oblivious to miss them on the Sowal beaches. After the Seagrove drowning reports and subsequent discussion I specifically checked flag visibility and could easily see 5 flags (3 to the west, 2 to the east).

IMO people are either idiots because they knowingly ignore the warnings or because they are so unconcerned about their safety and their family's safety that they don't bother to find out basic safety info.

[Smiling JOe]

One shouldn't need a flag to tell them that big@ss waves could be deadly.

Here is the Walton County Code of Ordinances:

ARTICLE IV. REGULATION OF RECREATIONAL BEACH AND WATER ACTIVITIES*
Sec. 22-54. Regulation of use and conduct on the beach and water bodies.
(h) Swimming and surfing.

(1) Authority to close or restrict use of beach and water bodies.

(2) The director of emergency operations, or the Walton County Sheriff's Department shall have the authority to declare that an emergency exists and temporarily close or restrict the use of the beach and adjacent waters for use by the public when conditions endangering the safety of the public are present.

(3) It shall be a violation of this article for any person, having been given actual or constructive notice such as by the posting of signs or the making of public announcements, to violate any restriction or order given under the terms of this section. Those persons surfing as defined herein with a surfboard attached to the surfer by a leash are exempt from this section.



*************
Surfing means the riding or paddling of a surfboard within the waters of the Gulf of Mexico abutting or adjacent to the beach.

*************
Sec. 22-61. Penalty. (a) Any person found in violation of the above provisions shall face the following civil penalties. Any person to whom a citation is issued shall pay the fine by the designated date or appear in county court at the time, date, and location designated in the citation.

(b) Minimum civil penalties for violations of this section not otherwise listed below are as follows:

(1) First violation--$100.00.

(2) Second violation--$200.00.

(3) Third and subsequent violations--Fine up to $500.00 and/or up to 60 days in jail.

[seagrovegirl]

According to Shallowsnole, the Clerk of Court office was inundated with people po'd about getting a $100. ticket at the beach. Finally, there are teeth behind the warnings.

[ckhagen]

One shouldn't need a flag to tell them that big@ss waves could be deadly.

I would have thought the same thing, but on a trip to another beach last year, I was shocked at the size of the waves and the resulting strength. However, on that particular beach, it was considered only a yellow flag situation and not unsafe to swim in. I could only imagine that people who have been to beaches such as that one, would look at the physical appearance of our red flag conditions and think it looked very mild in comparison. It's the unseen conditions that are the problem.

Now, if someone actually has an officer walk up to them and tell them the conditions are deadly and they get back in... well... that's just beyond stupid.

[Smiling JOe]

Somewhere in my files of pics, I have photos of Walton County's Finest, issuing tickets to people who were swimming at Blue Mtn Beach when the waters were closed, after a big storm passed through in 2005. Other people who were nearby, went right back in the water after the Deputy passed by.

[beachmouse]

One shouldn't need a flag to tell them that big@ss waves could be deadly.

Problem isn't so much the waves- people see the big ones and either stay out or see it as perfect surfing weather. What gets people down here are the rip currents, which take a fairly experienced eye to pick out from shore if you can see them at all.

[dogflyguy]

Well scooter i guess it's good you are so smart and perfect that you would never make such a stupid mistake. but as i said an agree the INFORMED ones should be hauled off for endangering other people's lives. Also joe the waves were not very big on the day i was out there and i have seen it with much smaller waves and still a stong undertow and i have seen it change from yellow to red very quickly. but i guess the elderly person standing in knee high water (at yellow flag) who losses balance from the undertow and is suddenly swept out should have had the smarts to know it was getting more dangerous and was soon to be changed from yellow to red and then be hit with jail time and a big fine. you say that don't happen. It does at our state park alot . ive seen it where it may be 2 or 3 hours before it's changed to red and the park people notify you of it

[Smiling JOe]

Let's not confuse people by mentioning "undertoe." What we have here are "rip-currents" Undertow pulls you under. Rip currents pull you seaward.

Jail time up to 60 days can come only on or after the third offense. I believe the idea of the rule is to keep people from drowning, and keep Emergency Responders from risking their own lives. The penalties are there only to help out the people who don't think that warnings apply.

[scooterbug44]

I am not perfect, but I AM tired of us spending millions to coddle people when a little common sense and responsibility would decimate or eliminate the problem.

You are assuming that the officials issuing these tickets have no discretion or brain cells - realistically, just as they can issue a ticket or a warning for a traffic violation, they can do the same for red flag violators.

All this does is add a little emphasis to what people should already know - in life and at the beach there are consequences for your actions, especially when those actions are in direct violation of rules and warnings.

Any swimmer should be aware of both their abilities/limitations and the current conditions/hazards.

[Smiling JOe]

The jurisdiction issue certainly is interesting to think about.

[scooterbug44]

They don't address the jurisdiction issue by declaring they have the power in "emergency conditions"?

[Smiling JOe]

GRS, you bring up jurisdiction. I guess you think that no County representative, such as EMS crews and lifeguards, should cross the line and enter the water to attempt rescues? Does this also mean that the Sheriff's Dept shouldn't have jet skis to use in the Gulf?

[seagrovegirl]

Good question???

[SoWalProfire]

I have been a firefighter in SoWal for over 7 years. In that time I have personally been involved in many water rescues. A successful rescue IMO is one that ends with the rescuee and the rescuer safely on the beach and no one dies. Unfortunately, not all rescues end this way.

Rescuees have died or been transported to the hospital in critical condition. These are typically folks who are here on vacation (but, not always); Joe, Mary and the kids freshly arrived from Kentucky to have a little fun on our beautiful beaches. Joe and Mary saved for six months to take this family vacation and if their kids want to swim, then "By God! I am gonna let 'em!" (I have heard this direct quote from a father angry with a firefighter for telling Joe that the water was closed due to the rough surf conditions. Even after the firefighter pointed out that on that same day 6 people had drowned, so far). June 8th, Black Sunday, Bad day.


Rescuers have nearly drowned attempting to save someone. A number of Firefighters, Paramedics, EMTs and Sheriffs Officers have been transported to the hospital. Nearly drowned while risking their lives to save others. MOST of whom knew full well what the flags meant. People who ignore the flags and get into trouble because of it, are a danger to themselves and every member of this community. While we are all on the beach performing water rescues or trying to revive the rescuees brought out by the lifeguards, who is responding to traffic accidents, medical emergencies and fires. This type of lunacy strains our resources.

Whether the problem is jurisdictional or educational, I am glad someone is doing something about it. The BCBCC actions will no doubt save lives. The lives of both the public and the emergency personnel responsible for maintaining their safety. And I gotta tell ya, that makes me smile.

[SoWalProfire]

I personally think that the last thing we need is yet another ordinance to deal with this. I think the "Baker Act" ( There must be evidence that the person a) has a mental illness (as defined in the Baker Act) and b) is a harm to self, harm to others, or self neglectful (as defined in the Baker Act). Examinations may last up to 72 hours) could be used for this just as easily. But with revenues down state wide this is just another way to pad the coffers at the expense of visitors.

I am against using the Baker Act for this purpose. If these law breakers are Baker Acted in SoWal, SWFD ambulances will be required to transport them to out of county facilities like Bridgeway (FWB), Baptist behavioral (Pensacola), or Bay Medical (Bay County). On a typical double red day this would mean there would be NO ambulances available for SoWal residents or visitors who REALLY need our services. Not to mention, who would provide EMS care to the rest of the drowning masses?

Just arrest their butts and keep 'em in the clink till the seas are calm.

[SWGB]

GRS, I understand the point of arresting over comittal. The baker act is for people who are a danger to themselves and others due to mental issues and does not include stubborness. It also requires a 72 hour hold in a mental facility. I think over night in the Defuniak Inn would do much better. They can also arrest them take them to the 331 annex and wait until enough idiots are ready to go north.

There's clearly some other issue involved here and I'm not gonna touch that with a 10 foot stick.

[enfuego]

Really, Is how our narrow minded Fire Department thinks? Obviously you don't know the first thing about water safety and rescue. Throw em jail? I'll remember this when you people call me to rescue people out of the water. Why because your egos got in the way. Remember that most if any have zero water rescue training and you have been given those cool jet ski's with absolutely no training in big surf conditions. I have several years life guard experience and 6 years as a rough water coxswain and as a rescue swimmer in the Coast Guard and 35 years of surfing experience all over the world including Mavericks and wiamea Bay Hawaii. My point is this, if your gonna shoot your mouth of on this site ya damn well better know what the hell your talking about. Remember the life you save may be your own!

I agree with SWGB, there is more to this than meets the eye (post). Who are "you people" ? And does the SWFD/Lifeguards "call on" others to rescue people out of the water???

[SoWalProfire]

Really, Is how our narrow minded Fire Department thinks? Obviously you don't know the first thing about water safety and rescue. Throw em jail? I'll remember this when you people call me to rescue people out of the water. Why because your egos got in the way. Remember that most if any have zero water rescue training and you have been given those cool jet ski's with absolutely no training in big surf conditions. I have several years life guard experience and 6 years as a rough water coxswain and as a rescue swimmer in the Coast Guard and 35 years of surfing experience all over the world including Mavericks and wiamea Bay Hawaii. My point is this, if your gonna shoot your mouth of on this site ya damn well better know what the hell your talking about. Remember the life you save may be your own!

Wow! You seem a little tense. Try a little yoga. Some daily exercise. Maybe a significant other. Xanax. Something...

I am so relieved to hear that god asks you for advice about water rescue! Wish you could have been there helping us on June 8th 2003. I'm sure no one would have drowned. And at a time when we didn't have lifeguards, when firefighters with very little or no training in high surf rescue were left with the choice of letting people die or swim, I am sure that you, single handedly, would have prevented our firefighters from entering the water. Whatever...

I believe the grudge you bare is because you believe I am talking about surfers when I say law breakers. If you read the previously posted BCBCC enacted ordnance, you will see that it exempts surfers. As do I. I am Sorry I wasn't more clear.

As a northern Gulf coastal resident of Florida for over 40 years, I have been fortunate enough to enjoy all water sports; swimming, diving, skiing, skimming, snorkeling, canoing, fishing, kayaking and yes, even surfing. From the time I was 16 till I was about 24 or so, I lost more part and full time jobs than I care to admit because I checked the surf on the way to work. Surfers rarely drown and I don't think I have ever responded to a surfer in trouble during double red flag conditions.

As to why our folks got into trouble while risking their lives to rescue others:
As I stated above, we had little to no experience or education in high surf rescue but were still expected to enter the water and attempt a rescue. I assure you that our egos had nothing to do with the matter. And though I can only speak for me, I am reasonably sure that implication will piss off many of the guys who risked their lives to save others on that particular day and others.

You also imply that I spoke out of school. That I didn't know what I was talking about. Because I was there, I can assure that I DO know what I was talking about. But I am less sure of these two things. 1) That you know what I was talking about. and 2) That you know what you are talking about.

Oh yeah, and I won't be calling you to rescue anyone out of the water. I don't even know who you are.

What are we talking about?

Lemme guess; You've got world records, mate. (infer an Australian accent)

[SoWalProfire]

GRS, I understand the point of arresting over comittal. The baker act is for people who are a danger to themselves and others due to mental issues and does not include stubborness. It also requires a 72 hour hold in a mental facility. I think over night in the Defuniak Inn would do much better. They can also arrest them take them to the 331 annex and wait until enough idiots are ready to go north.

There's clearly some other issue involved here and I'm not gonna touch that with a 10 foot stick.

Amen, GB

I believe the other issue may be a personal thing. (that's why I added the last sentence to my post. pretty sure I know who GRS is)

[SoWalProfire]

Amen, GB

I believe the other issue may be a personal thing. (that's why I added the last sentence to my post. pretty sure I know who GRS is)

I stand corrected. GRS is not who I thought he was. And my apologies go out to the falsely accused party(Confirmed by phone call)(infer a confused accent)

Whatever his issues are, he seems keen on taking shots at our firefighters (vicariously though it may be) through me.

[Jdarg]

I stand corrected. GRS is not who I thought he was. (Confirmed by phone call)(infer a confused accent)

Whatever his issues are, he seems keen on taking shots at our firefighters (vicariously though it may be) through me.

Please know that many of us on this board think that you and your department do an excellent job on our beaches. Thanks for the info and I hope y'all don't have to put yourselves in too much danger this weekend- stay safe!

[beachwanabe]

We were just at Seacrest Beach August 2nd to 16th, when there were drownings, double red flags, etc.... One thing that would help would be a telephone number listed in the rentals to get up to date beach flag/beach conditions before you decide to go to the beach. Not sure if this info is even available but I would use it before I went to the beach with my family. The info could also stress the importance of NOT GOING IN THE WATER.

[SoWalProfire]

We were just at Seacrest Beach August 2nd to 16th, when there were drownings, double red flags, etc.... One thing that would help would be a telephone number listed in the rentals to get up to date beach flag/beach conditions before you decide to go to the beach. Not sure if this info is even available but I would use it before I went to the beach with my family. The info could also stress the importance of NOT GOING IN THE WATER.

For current surf conditions in SoWal visit http://www.swfd.org. There is also important information on the "water safety" page (link on the left of the home page).

Be safe.

[SWGB]

Those flags on the beach aren't for decoration or seasonal.

[seagrovegirl]

Really, Is how our narrow minded Fire Department thinks? Obviously you don't know the first thing about water safety and rescue. Throw em jail? I'll remember this when you people call me to rescue people out of the water. Why because your egos got in the way. Remember that most if any have zero water rescue training and you have been given those cool jet ski's with absolutely no training in big surf conditions. I have several years life guard experience and 6 years as a rough water coxswain and as a rescue swimmer in the Coast Guard and 35 years of surfing experience all over the world including Mavericks and wiamea Bay Hawaii. My point is this, if your gonna shoot your mouth of on this site ya damn well better know what the hell your talking about. Remember the life you save may be your own!

The whole point of throwing them in jail, or fining them is to keep them from drowning, or a rescuer drowning to save some idiot that didn't head warnings.

GRS...I would like to see you get involved with SWFD water rescue, it seems you have a lot to say and perhaps a lot to offer.

[SoWalProfire]

The whole point of throwing them in jail, or fining them is to keep them from drowning, or a rescuer drowning to save some idiot that didn't head warnings.

GRS...I would like to see you get involved with SWFD water rescue, it seems you have a lot to say and perhaps a lot to offer.

Thank you SeagroveGirl. I can always count on you to nudge me back to the path.

You are right. A person with this much experience and education would be a marvelous addition to our beach safety program.

GRS you should apply to the SWFD Beach Safety Division. If you visit the SWFD Central Station at (oddly enough) 911 N. Co. Hwy. 393 you can pick up an application.

Good luck! Hope to see you on the beach!

[SWGB]

Oops I did that twice...

Is there an echo in here?

You can click edit and then delete on the second post.

[John R]

if someone does into the water on a double red flag day wouldn't that be viewed as 'assumption of the risk'?

And to Ms. Sweat who lost her BIL, it seems she knows exactly where to look to see the flags. if one is at the beach and must do a 360 degree turn to find out what's happening in one's surroundings, that doesn't seem to too much of an exercise.

ymmv

[ASH]

[quote=SoWalProfire;455258]Thank you SeagroveGirl. I can always count on you to nudge me back to the path.

You are right. A person with this much experience and education would be a marvelous addition to our beach safety program.

GRS you should apply to the SWFD Beach Safety Division. If you visit the SWFD Central Station at (oddly enough) 911 N. Co. Hwy. 393 you can pick up an application.

Did you folks ever fix that piece of metal trim on the roofline to the South? It always looks like rain must run right down the inside wall. Must have blown loose during a storm at one point.

[DannyMarg]

Really, Is how our narrow minded Fire Department thinks? Obviously you don't know the first thing about water safety and rescue. Throw em jail? I'll remember this when you people call me to rescue people out of the water. Why because your egos got in the way. Remember that most if any have zero water rescue training and you have been given those cool jet ski's with absolutely no training in big surf conditions. I have several years life guard experience and 6 years as a rough water coxswain and as a rescue swimmer in the Coast Guard and 35 years of surfing experience all over the world including Mavericks and wiamea Bay Hawaii. My point is this, if your gonna shoot your mouth of on this site ya damn well better know what the hell your talking about. Remember the life you save may be your own!

GRS,
You should maybe stop shooting your mouth and thank those who are here for no other reason but to help others. If you are the self-proclaimed hero you say you are then takes some advise, be a little more humble and support those who have common goals. And by the way I work for SWFD and guarantee I have better water knowledge, better quality experience in the water and especially surf way better than you will ever dream up. And oh yeah, since you are disrespecting noble professions like EMS, Firefighters, Police and lifeguards what exactly are you doing to better this community, do you even work?

[seagrovegirl]

[quote=ASH;455670]

Thank you SeagroveGirl. I can always count on you to nudge me back to the path.

You are right. A person with this much experience and education would be a marvelous addition to our beach safety program.

GRS you should apply to the SWFD Beach Safety Division. If you visit the SWFD Central Station at (oddly enough) 911 N. Co. Hwy. 393 you can pick up an application.

Did you folks ever fix that piece of metal trim on the roofline to the South? It always looks like rain must run right down the inside wall. Must have blown loose during a storm at one point.

Which building are you referring to????

[grumpyfish]

Wow! You seem a little tense. Try a little yoga. Some daily exercise. Maybe a significant other. Xanax. Something...

I am so relieved to hear that god asks you for advice about water rescue! Wish you could have been there helping us on June 8th 2003. I'm sure no one would have drowned. And at a time when we didn't have lifeguards, when firefighters with very little or no training in high surf rescue were left with the choice of letting people die or swim, I am sure that you, single handedly, would have prevented our firefighters from entering the water. Whatever...

I believe the grudge you bare is because you believe I am talking about surfers when I say law breakers. If you read the previously posted BCBCC enacted ordnance, you will see that it exempts surfers. As do I. I am Sorry I wasn't more clear.

As a northern Gulf coastal resident of Florida for over 40 years, I have been fortunate enough to enjoy all water sports; swimming, diving, skiing, skimming, snorkeling, canoing, fishing, kayaking and yes, even surfing. From the time I was 16 till I was about 24 or so, I lost more part and full time jobs than I care to admit because I checked the surf on the way to work. Surfers rarely drown and I don't think I have ever responded to a surfer in trouble during double red flag conditions.

As to why our folks got into trouble while risking their lives to rescue others:
As I stated above, we had little to no experience or education in high surf rescue but were still expected to enter the water and attempt a rescue. I assure you that our egos had nothing to do with the matter. And though I can only speak for me, I am reasonably sure that implication will piss off many of the guys who risked their lives to save others on that particular day and others.

You also imply that I spoke out of school. That I didn't know what I was talking about. Because I was there, I can assure that I DO know what I was talking about. But I am less sure of these two things. 1) That you know what I was talking about. and 2) That you know what you are talking about.

Oh yeah, and I won't be calling you to rescue anyone out of the water. I don't even know who you are.

What are we talking about?

Lemme guess; You've got world records, mate. (infer an Australian accent)

I have one thing to say about all that...HERRRUMPH! Looks like ole greenroomsurfer should snack on his own words..."if your gonna shoot your mouth of on this site ya damn well better know what the hell your talking about." In the meantime, the adults are talking.

[grumpyfish]

From WJHG... KUDOS to Sheriff McKeithen

It is my understanding that you can be fined or arrested.

The Bay County Commission this morning, at the urging of Sheriff Frank McKeithen, adopted an emergency ordinance allowing violators of the double red flags to be arrested.
There have been several hundred rescues and 10 drownings at Panama City Beach this year, many of them while double red flags are flying indicating the beaches are closed to swimmers.
Life Guards, Police and Rescue workers say many swimmers went right back in the water after being instructed to get out.
The County commission adopted the emergency ordinance by unanimous 4 to 0 vote. Commission Jerry Girvin was absent because of a broken leg.
The Ordinance took affect when it was adopted shortly after nine this morning.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but here is another point of view on the issue: Don't mess with natural selection. Putting local resources in harms way to save the lives of those who are just "thinning the herd" compounds problems. It's called "a little chlorine in the gene pool."

[Little Fish]

Ticketing folks for ignoring double red flags is not the answer. Charging folks for being pulled from the water and receiving life saving services sounds more reasonable to me.

Little Fish

[seagrovegirl]

Grumpyfish and littlefish....sounds like your pool has too much chlorine in it...............

[SWGB]

Ticketing folks for ignoring double red flags is not the answer. Charging folks for being pulled from the water and receiving life saving services sounds more reasonable to me.

Little Fish

I can guarantee the first idiot to get out of the hospital and be presented with a nice 5 digit bill for his/her rescue would make national news and might actually have people looking at the flags. Why do you think speeding tickets keep going up?