Watercolor

[Franny]

Very true, weren't these the last of Joe built homes?

Yes.

[scooterbug44]

If I had a choice between a Joe built home and a dumpster as a hurricane refuge, I'd choose the dumpster! There were several experienced & good contractors working, but the rest of them.........

[SHELLY]

Very true, weren't these the last of Joe built homes?

The quarter closes out next Monday (March 31)...JOE is looking for any source of revenue to offset its quarterly losses.


.

[fisher]

I believe the most per square foot ever obtained in Watercolor was in Phase II. Once you get outside of a view corridor and/or walking distance, price per square foot deviations are driven by the size of the house and quality of design and construction. Distressed sales are impacting the entire 30-A market by driving down the average price of a home. Phase I is not somehow insulated from that impact anymore than Phase II and Phase III will bear the brunt of it.

Phase II has never commanded as much as Phase I and the highest prices paid in WC have all been in Phase I (several $3 million plus sales, non beach front and several more above $2.5 million, non beach front). Phase I prices are holding much better than Phase II or Phase III. No sales below roughly $500 per square foot in Phase I. Many, many below $400 per square foot in Phases II and III. Seaside, comparable to Phase I in terms of location, is also holding up very nicely in terms of price. Sure prices are down, but the farther you get from the beach, the bigger the drop seems to be. Location, location, location.

[heathernken]

Closing just happened on a nice over 3K sq ft home, asking 1.5 sold for 1.050 about 305 per foot. Phase 3.

[fisher]

Closing just happened on a nice over 3K sq ft home, asking 1.5 sold for 1.050 about 305 per foot. Phase 3.

That was one very different floorplan--too unusual for many folks and lots of unusable square feet. Also, about as far from the beach as you can get in Watercolor. Again, way too much at risk inventory in Phase II and III. Way too many empty lots where you could build cheaper than you could buy many of the existing homes. This will keep prices down in these phases.

Phase I has only a few undeveloped lots and not many at risk homes as many were purchased before the boom. Also, great close to the beach location in Phase I. That'w why prices haven't dropped as precipitously as in the rest of WC.

[DuneLaker]

There were some exceptionally good builders for the spec Joe homes. You just have to know who built what. Some lucky people will end up with a very well built home at a great price

[SWGB]

Fisher I have to disagree with you on the fact that Phase II and III of WC are somehow undervalued. Although further from the beach some lots hold incredible value. Such as cross lake gulf views and sides that share the State Forrest border. Given the right buyer that is a much greater value than 30A frontage with a slight gulf view.

[fisher]

Fisher I have to disagree with you on the fact that Phase II and III of WC are somehow undervalued. Although further from the beach some lots hold incredible value. Such as cross lake gulf views and sides that share the State Forrest border. Given the right buyer that is a much greater value than 30A frontage with a slight gulf view.

Average price paid for a home in Phase I over the past year was over $600 (excluding Park Row and Beachfront) per square foot with the lowest being around $500. In Phase II and III the average price has been under $450 (with some at $300) or about 30% to 40% below Phase I.

I don't believe Phase II and Phase III are undervalued. I believe they are worth much less than Phase I due to location and the prices people are paying now and have paid in the past prove back up this point. It only make sense that a house within walking distance from the beach will be worth more than a comparable house a bike or car ride away.

[fisher]

The third highest price per square ever paid in Watercolor was in Phase II and the sale occurred less than a year ago. The big sales you refer to are almost all in Park Row on the south side or lake front on Western Lake in Phase I. Similar high price sales have or will occur on the park in Phase II and the lake in Phase III. Everything else is going to look the same with deviations for quality. When you're north of 30-A, a block or three really means little.

One house in Phase II sold for over $700 per square foot (over 50% above the Phase II average) about one year ago. But, the average price was below $450. Not one other house in Phase II has sold for over $550 since then. In the meantime, several houses in Phase I sold for over $700 per square (20% above the average) foot last year with the average being over $600.

There is also a much bigger difference in distance to the beach than a "block or three". Some parts of Phase II are over a mile to the beach via the streets of WC versus and easy walk from most of Phase I.

Prices in all of Watercolor and all along 30A are likely to continue to soften until the inventory problem and the mortgage/banking mess get sorted out.

[Watersound]

I understand the importance of proximity to the beach, but does "feet above sea level" have a place in the decision to purchase beach property...whether it be a lot or a home? Most of Watercolor and Seaside are north of 30a, but does surge still factor in?

In my mind an elevated property with a slight gulf view would be a better investment than a gulf front at 3x the money.

Just curious if realtors discuss sea level with prospective buyers...

[scooterbug44]

Sea level isn't so much as issue as flood zones & wetland designations.

[fisher]

Over $700.00 ....... it was over $900.00. A lot of what you are looking at is the spec inventory and there just happens to be more of it in Phase II and Phase III so better deals can be had. In the long run, things will start to even out as the other houses accumulate some rental history.

You might want to check the MLS again. 359 Spartina Circle--3317 square feet sold for $2.60 million. Equates to under $800 per square foot. Besides this isolated sale, only a couple of other properties in Phase II sold for over $500 per square foot over the past year and the majority closed near or below $400 per square foot. On the other hand, I could find no sales in Phase I below $500 per square and numerous above $700 per square foot.

Please direct me to any house in Watercolor outside of gulf front or park row that sold for $900 per square foot. I don't believe any house outside of Park Row or gulf front has sold for much over $800 per square foot and there were only a few of those that occurred during the bubble days in 2005.

[George]

I believe Phases II and III are attracting the value buyers who are looking for a great deal. Considering you can easily buy a lot for $250,000 in Phases II and III and build a house for ~$250 per square foot, you could build 3,000 square feet for under $1,000,000. The sellers in those phases have to compete with that issue because the lot inventory is so high. Sellers in phase I do not have that concern and many of the non-value purchasers with lots of cash will be attracted to the proximity of Phase I to the beach and the complete, built out feeling Phase I has.

[Santiago]

You might want to check the MLS again. 359 Spartina Circle--3317 square feet sold for $2.60 million. Equates to under $800 per square foot. Besides this isolated sale, only a couple of other properties in Phase II sold for over $500 per square foot over the past year and the majority closed near or below $400 per square foot. On the other hand, I could find no sales in Phase I below $500 per square and numerous above $700 per square foot.

Please direct me to any house in Watercolor outside of gulf front or park row that sold for $900 per square foot. I don't believe any house outside of Park Row or gulf front has sold for much over $800 per square foot and there were only a few of those that occurred during the bubble days in 2005.

FYI. Fulltime is not giving you his opinion, it is a fact that the house in question was 2800 sf, not 3317 as you stated. No need to look at tax rolls to try and figure it out, it is a fact. I know the house, the builder, the floor plan, etc. It was 2800 sf.

[fisher]

FYI. Fulltime is not giving you his opinion, it is a fact that the house in question was 2800 sf, not 3317 as you stated. No need to look at tax rolls to try and figure it out, it is a fact. I know the house, the builder, the floor plan, etc. It was 2800 sf.

Got it. County records are wrong which is not surprising.

So, the actual data shows the sale to be even more out of range than the county records show. $900 per square foot in Phase II or a 100% premium over the average price per square foot. Regardless of quality, finishes, etc, that price seems a tad high. Good news for the seller for sure. Probably not so good for the buyer from an investment perspective.

[DuneLaker]

Answering WaterSounds question. IMO, height above sea level is a value item as is distance to Gulf. WaterColor and WaterSound, along with a number of properties along 30A, have an advantage of being above sea level and are built back behind primary dunes, in the transitional coastal zone or maritime forest. This property might indeed turn out to be a good investment as it will probably be high and dry for years to come. The only view isn't the beach. Many enjoy leaving the beach crowds at the end of the day and can still hear the waves lapping on the shore from the comfort of their porch swing nestled among the native landscape.

[Watersound]

I appreciate that input Dunelaker. South of 30A but behind the dunes is a nice comfort zone. Gulfviews would be fantastic, but bought too soon!

Thanks

[SWGB]

I appreciate that input Dunelaker. South of 30A but behind the dunes is a nice comfort zone. Gulfviews would be fantastic, but bought too soon!

Thanks

Give it time, eventually everyone's got water front property.

[DuneLaker]

well, maybe not

[traderx]

Wow, I feel like I just fell off the turnip truck.

We live in Atlanta and thought prices were getting out of hand here but what is going on in the Florida panhandle is amazing. I had posted about building costs in Destiny and based on what I have read, we will not be building in Destiny. We will try to find a resale and rehab and see how those costs look. If the costs don't work, we will find another spot to retire to, simple as that. We don't have any choice really. I keep reading that the market is dropping in Florida but apparent the SoWal MSA is immune.

[SHELLY]

I keep reading that the market is dropping in Florida but apparent the SoWal MSA is immune.

You just need to keep checking back for the "one week only" price drops.

.

[Chip and Dale]

Quote [I understand the importance of proximity to the beach, but does "feet above sea level" have a place in the decision to purchase beach property...]

When we looked for property in WaterColor back in 2003, >20 ft above sea level was a requirement.

[Shnicklefritz]

I'm trying to post a new thread and I keep getting a fatal error. Anyway, looking for a 2 bedroom/2 bath cottage - simple and not expensive. Vacation home. Anywhere in sowal but must be close to beach. Can anyone point me to a website where I can begin searching and looking at prices. Thanks.

[Carol G]

I'm trying to post a new thread and I keep getting a fatal error. Anyway, looking for a 2 bedroom/2 bath cottage - simple and not expensive. Vacation home. Anywhere in sowal but must be close to beach. Can anyone point me to a website where I can begin searching and looking at prices. Thanks.

www.emeraldcoasthomesonline.com

[Shnicklefritz]

Do I select the east and west walton county choices to cover all of sowal? I'm not that familiar with the area. Have driven through and have gotten confused where I was. Is Santa Rosa nice? Seacrest?

[2bohemians]

Do I select the east and west walton county choices to cover all of sowal? I'm not that familiar with the area. Have driven through and have gotten confused where I was. Is Santa Rosa nice? Seacrest?

Try selecting South Santa Rosa Beach and South Walton East ... that should pretty much cover the 30A .... if you are interested in Miramar Beach or Sandestin, you can select South Walton West ....

Yes Santa Rosa Beach is nice and so is Seacrest .... it all depends on what you seek in a beach community ... each one along the 30A has a different energy and vibe .....

[Carol G]

Do I select the east and west walton county choices to cover all of sowal? I'm not that familiar with the area. Have driven through and have gotten confused where I was. Is Santa Rosa nice? Seacrest?

If you are looking for something on or near Hwy 30A, select South Walton East and Santa Rosa Beach. South Walton West is (obviously) still part of Walton County, but it covers the Sandestin/Miramar Beach area, which is not on Hwy 30A. Santa Rosa Beach is the "official" town name for most of the communities along 30A, as well as north of 30A to the bay.

If I were you I would spend some time looking at a map to determine locations, but I can't really help you decide if something is "nice", it's just too subjective. What's nice to me might be nasty to you... The only way to really know which areas you'll like is to spend some time here first; the communities all have unique qualities and individual character.

Sowal.com is also a fantastic way to learn about the area, it was a huge help to me in deciding where I wanted to live. Go back to the home page and check out all of the tabs on the left side, especially the "tourism" and "links" tabs, that will be a good start for you...

[Carol G]

Their website frustrates the $#@!#$ out of me, but this map is pretty good:

http://www.beachesofsouthwalton.com/...sofsouthwalton

[Shnicklefritz]

Thanks for the info - will browse...

[tsutcli]

Got it. County records are wrong which is not surprising.

So, the actual data shows the sale to be even more out of range than the county records show. $900 per square foot in Phase II or a 100% premium over the average price per square foot. Regardless of quality, finishes, etc, that price seems a tad high. Good news for the seller for sure. Probably not so good for the buyer from an investment perspective.

Current closed house sales data for 2008 in Watercolor:
Phase 1 - $619/sq ft - 3 closed sales/5 sales not closed yet
Phase 2 - $399/sq ft - 5 closed/4 not closed
Phase 3 - $416/sq ft - 7 closed/2 not closed
Phase 4 - No sales in 08
Sq. Ft. is based on only heated/AC space.

[fisher]

Current closed house sales data for 2008 in Watercolor:
Phase 1 - $619/sq ft - 3 closed sales/5 sales not closed yet
Phase 2 - $399/sq ft - 5 closed/4 not closed
Phase 3 - $416/sq ft - 7 closed/2 not closed
Phase 4 - No sales in 08
Sq. Ft. is based on only heated/AC space.

Are your price per square foot nimbers based on the actual closed sales noted above or do they include the pending sales too?

[tsutcli]

Are your price per square foot nimbers based on the actual closed sales noted above or do they include the pending sales too?

On closed sales only as final selling price not available until after close.

[AAbsolute]

For the record: If your in the market for a good Watercolor Lot check out fellow Sowal'r TSUTCLI 's Lot in Watercolor. Lot 8, Mere Ridge. I think this one is a great one. If you can check out the aerial view on the Property Appraiser site you will probably agree.

[LoveSOS]

If TSUTCLI came off of the price about 20% I would buy it from her/him.

[AAbsolute]

If TSUTCLI came off of the price about 20% I would buy it from her/him.

Who wouldn't?

[fisher]

Who wouldn't?

Lots of people that have the wherewithal and are interested in WC would not jump on a price 20% lower for that particular lot. There are many Ph II and PH III lots in WC that are headed to the mid $100's over the next two years as the market continues to shake out.

[tsutcli]

2008 home sales ytd - ph # closed ave. Sold price ave. $/sq. Ft. ( COOLED AND HEATED SPACE )
1 12 1.927 625
2 14 1.046 439
3 18 1.208 418
4 0

2008 LOT SALES YTD
1 2 1 M
2 4 263,000
3 14 457,000
4 1 172,000



MULTI-FAMILY NORTHSIDE 4 742,000 538
MULTI-FAMILY SOUTHSIDE ( ? ) 0
PRC 7 137,000 98

[tsutcli]

Sorry about the above post. Can't seem to edit this so it makes more sense. Numbers won't move over under appopriate heading and stay after I edit and save. Hope you can desipher For info. onl.

[AAbsolute]

Lots of people that have the wherewithal and are interested in WC would not jump on a price 20% lower for that particular lot. There are many Ph II and PH III lots in WC that are headed to the mid $100's over the next two years as the market continues to shake out.

Are you sure you know the lot we are talking about on Thicket?

I don't have a thing to gain by seeing it sold or remain unsold. I have to say that this lot appears to be priced right. If someone paid 10% below asking they would be getting a great deal. I must be out of the loop.

Respectfully, JC

[fisher]

Are you sure you know the lot we are talking about on Thicket?

I don't have a thing to gain by seeing it sold or remain unsold. I have to say that this lot appears to be priced right. If someone paid 10% below asking they would be getting a great deal. I must be out of the loop.

Respectfully, JC

AA--everyone is entitled to their own opinion and based on your comments, it appears you believe that prices have bottomed or come close to bottoming.

As you have stated previously, Joe still has lots of inventory and they will be dropping prices in order to keep the revenue flowing. There will likely be continued downward pressure on prices. I wouldn't be surprised to see lot prices drop below original Joe asking prices from 2001.

In my opinion, we have a ways to go before we hit bottom. Especially for raw lots. That's why some people would need to see lot prices on Thicket (one mile from the beach club via car or bike) come way down before jumping in. For others, the price could never get low enough to buy that far from the beach in WC. That's my opinion, but it's not even worth the paper it's written on. Time will tell.

[AAbsolute]

I was figuring the lot at 5% or so below asking would be 254,600. Put a 2,400 sq. ft., 4 bed, 4 bath, Beach Casual Cottage on it for 355,000. You're in a high visibility property with a traffic speed buffer being on 80 Thicket Circle for 610,000 brand new. That just seems to be a good, solid and fair transaction for both sides of the deal.

On another******

I was watching a Watercolor Park Row property called #1 that went into foreclosure and the bank moved it to an LLC the past week for somewhere in the 500,000's. With a house on it for 400'ish that was a true steal. I do wonder what happens to Jan W. in that deal as the previous owner. Does the bank now come after him for the difference? Shouldn't the bank have asked 700 and got it?

[fisher]

I was figuring the lot at 5% or so below asking would be 254,600. Put a 2,400 sq. ft., 4 bed, 4 bath, Beach Casual Cottage on it for 355,000. You're in a high visibility property with a traffic speed buffer being on 80 Thicket Circle for 610,000 brand new. That just seems to be a good, solid and fair transaction for both sides of the deal.

On another******

I was watching a Watercolor Park Row property called #1 that went into foreclosure and the bank moved it to an LLC the past week for somewhere in the 500,000's. With a house on it for 400'ish that was a true steal. I do wonder what happens to Jan W. in that deal as the previous owner. Does the bank now come after him for the difference? Shouldn't the bank have asked 700 and got it?

I know of no builder (except maybe you) that will build a WC quality house with all the fixin's for $120 per square foot. But, if you could find one to do it, and you don't mind being 1 mile from the beach, it's not a bad price.

[Miss Kitty]

I was figuring the lot at 5% or so below asking would be 254,600. Put a 2,400 sq. ft., 4 bed, 4 bath, Beach Casual Cottage on it for 355,000. You're in a high visibility property with a traffic speed buffer being on 80 Thicket Circle for 610,000 brand new. That just seems to be a good, solid and fair transaction for both sides of the deal.

On another******

I was watching a Watercolor Park Row property called #1 that went into foreclosure and the bank moved it to an LLC the past week for somewhere in the 500,000's. With a house on it for 400'ish that was a true steal. I do wonder what happens to Jan W. in that deal as the previous owner. Does the bank now come after him for the difference? Shouldn't the bank have asked 700 and got it?

What is up with all those empty lots, anyway?

[AAbsolute]

I know of no builder (except maybe you) that will build a WC quality house with all the fixin's for $120 per square foot. But, if you could find one to do it, and you don't mind being 1 mile from the beach, it's not a bad price.

355,000 for a 2,400 sq. ft. home is $148 per square foot. I'm sure there are builders in Watercolor who build for that at this time. Didn't Geoff Chick and Chris Clark just put together a successful project in Watercolor for that price point?

Anyway, I am pretty sure that that lot with the proper home would cash flow off rental or provide a great long term residence. Again, it's not my property and I'm not a realtor. That's probably real close to a bottom if it's not a bottom for Thicket Circle near Camp Watercolor.

[AAbsolute]

What is up with all those empty lots, anyway?

Are you talking about the lots on Park Row? {South of 30A in Watercolor} I don't think there are many empty lots over there. I know of 1, 2, 3 and maybe #4. I was watching #1 and I can't believe I missed the public auction by 1 day. That was a deal for Arnold Family Investments.

[SHELLY]

St. Joe Co. Offers Homesite-Buyer Incentives

Buyers can take advantage of perks while their houses are being built
September 8, 2008 - 5:43PM
Kimberly White
Northwest Florida Daily News

SANTA ROSA BEACH - As real estate sales continue to sag, The St. Joe Co., one of Florida's largest developers, is pulling out all the stops to up their property sales.

Like many companies, St. Joe is loading up on the perks and has announced three incentive programs for prospective home buyers along the Gulf Coast.

The WaterSound Living and SummerSweet Living programs in WaterSound and WaterColor, respectively, allow home buyers - for a nominal fee - to purchase extended stays at luxury residences in their chosen communities while their homes are being built. A similar program also has been launched at Windmark Beach in Port St. Joe in Gulf County.

Tom Dodson, vice president of sales for West Florida, said St. Joe got out of the homebuilding business during a restructuring two years ago and is now focused primarily on real estate development and sales. Although the company did relinquish some of its inventory last year, many of the developed lots are ready for home buyers to build on, he said.

The idea behind the new incentive programs is to generate more sales.

While a home site is a great asset to own, Dodson said, buyers do not get anything out of the associated fees they still must pay even though their homes are not built.

"We tried to position it where, yes, you'll own the lot, you'll pay these (fees), but you'll have a place to stay while you're here," he said. "Say you bought a $100,000 lot in SummerSweet. Well, for the next two years until you build your house, you have the use of a cottage right there for a very minimal fee."

Buyers can stay in the furnished cottages for up to a week and have access to amenities such as a beach club, boat house, tennis center, golf club and fitness center. Likewise, those who participate in the WaterSound Living program will pay a minimal fee for up to a week-long stay in a one-bedroom condominium at the WaterSound Beach GateHouse.

In addition, a recently launched Discovery Stay geared toward top real estate prospects allows them to stay at the WaterSound Beach GateHouse, or at the village center at Windmark Beach in Port St. Joe, to experience life there.

"There's no better way to promote the communities and the projects you have within the communities than for someone to stay and experience what it is," said Dodson, who added that the best way to sell a property is to have a face-to-face meeting with prospective buyers.

All three incentive programs will run through December 2010. St. Joe expects the real estate industry to rebound by that time.

Company officials expect the international airport being built in Bay County to open up the Emerald Coast to a larger national and international audience - and potential customers.

The Gulf Coast has been in a real estate slump since the last quarter of 2005, largely because of the numerous tropical storms and hurricanes that have hit the region, Dodson said.

[AAbsolute]

That press release was loaded with good news:

The real estate slump should rebound in 27 months.

The new airport will bring International buyers to Watercolor.

The real estate slump began in 2005 and was due largely to hurricanes.

JOE has the financial wherewithal, and is willing, to drop its lot prices 60% below the price it sold its previous customers.

[Miss Kitty]

Are you talking about the lots on Park Row? {South of 30A in Watercolor} I don't think there are many empty lots over there. I know of 1, 2, 3 and maybe #4. I was watching #1 and I can't believe I missed the public auction by 1 day. That was a deal for Arnold Family Investments.

Yes, those lots. I am talking about the lots closest to 30-A. Being a "rule follower", I could never understand how they stayed empty for so long, as they were released very early on in the frenzy. If Lot #1 is the one closet to 30A, that would be the least desirable lot.

[AAbsolute]

Yes, those lots. I am talking about the lots closest to 30-A. Being a "rule follower", I could never understand how they stayed empty for so long, as they were released very early on in the frenzy. If Lot #1 is the one closet to 30A, that would be the least desirable lot.

I was in a preliminary agreement to buy Lot 3 which is the 3rd from 30A in a trade/sale for one of my Watersound homes. That Seller showed his build out as 2010. For some reason the Property Appraiser online site shows those 3 parcels as 1. I'm sure it is in need of computer updating.

I find any of those 3 lots more desireable than any lot North of 30A in Watercolor. IMO those lots are worth 1,000,000 each.