Voting in a church or religious facility

[Smiling JOe]

It's true, churches (or houses of worship, et al) do want people to visit, share fellowship, learn, & even join. They honestly want to help. But it's also supposed to be a safe haven. Especially if there is a M-F school attached. Then there's Sunday school, evening activities. The list goes on.

At our church it's the same as others have mentioned here. EVERY volunteer (& they are church members) are fingerprinted, background checked, etc. This is now standard in our annual budget. The safety of our congregations children (& this includes teens) is of the utmost importance. It has taken a priority over the last 4 - 5 years.

Gone are the days of people in need walking in off the street to quietly pray in the sanctuary. It hurts to turn them away when they are in pain - it's in total conflict of what a church stands for in the community.

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The thought just occurred to me -- In Jesus' eyes, we are all sinners, so the Churches are always filled with sinners. What's the big deal if one or two sinners decide to conduct their sins in Church? Wouldn't they just be one step closer to getting help?

(Removing tongue from cheek, now.)

[Johnrudy]

The thought just occurred to me -- In Jesus' eyes, we are all sinners, so the Churches are always filled with sinners. What's the big deal if one or two sinners decide to conduct their sins in Church? Wouldn't they just be one step closer to getting help?

(Removing tongue from cheek, now.)

yeah, but some are VERRRRY scary and most get reallllly po'd (& loud!!) when we explain that they have to leave because of the preschool. Fortunately, I work from home 90% of the time.

Yes, we are all heathens together.

[User 3]

I understand that there is a seperation of Church and State, but why am I forced to cast my vote in a church merely because it will facilitate the masses?

I find it to be insulting and against the basic foundation of seperation of Church and State.

Am I wrong? What do you think?

Personally, I don't believe the church building causes any disruption to the voting process. Also, I do not believe the persons in charge of or who own the church who files a 501 c with the IRS would ever risk losing their tax-exempt status by advocating one candidate over another. The 501 c tax-exemption restricts what the church can and cannot say. So in a way doesn't the government own the church, which makes the separation of church and state impossible in these church polling places?

[Smiling JOe]

Personally, I don't believe the church building causes any disruption to the voting process. Also, I do not believe the persons in charge of or who own the church who files a 501 c with the IRS would ever risk losing their tax-exempt status by advocating one candidate over another. The 501 c tax-exemption restricts what the church can and cannot say. So in a way doesn't the government own the church, which makes the separation of church and state impossible in these church polling places?

Interesting thought, but I'd say that it is more like the Govt licensing the church, not owning it. The wall isn't as tall as Jefferson suggested to the Baptists. The gov't mandates building and safety codes, AHA compliance, Equal Opportunity Employment, etc. That doesn't mean that gov't is controlling religion, and is still Constitutional in my mind.

[Ocean Lover]

The thought just occurred to me -- In Jesus' eyes, we are all sinners, so the Churches are always filled with sinners. What's the big deal if one or two sinners decide to conduct their sins in Church? Wouldn't they just be one step closer to getting help?

(Removing tongue from cheek, now.)

Ya gotta keep up with the times......if people are in need they need to come on Sunday morning or during office hours. Otherwise the doors are locked. I love the way our church handles benevolence issues..always caring and compassionate and tough when they need to be. And yes, a few sinners decide to help themselves to A/V equipment every now and then. We're an independant church, we support ourselves so it really hurts when that happens. Three years ago my office and several others were broken into during a busy Saturday when our basketball program was going on. Laptops, cameras and cash were stolen. Come to find out it was a "gang" of women breaking into churches. We were obviously cased and I had to have been followed or they never would have known I was taking back concession money to my office.( I thought I was being discreet) It was the worst feeling ever.

[Smiling JOe]

I recently saw a story of a troubled youth who broke into a church and stole some things out of the Reverend's office. The guy started to feel guilt. The Reverend had put word out that he wouldn't prosecute if the items were returned. He felt that the theft was the thief's way of reaching out for help. The young guy returned the items, and confessed before the congregation and they all forgave him of his sins, and welcomed him into the church. Now that is my idea of goodness.

[Johnrudy]

I recently saw a story of a troubled youth who broke into a church and stole some things out of the Reverend's office. The guy started to feel guilt. The Reverend had put word out that he wouldn't prosecute if the items were returned. He felt that the theft was the thief's way of reaching out for help. The young guy returned the items, and confessed before the congregation and they all forgave him of his sins, and welcomed him into the church. Now that is my idea of goodness.

If only it always worked out so perfectly. But it's still a great story, SJ.

[Smiling JOe]

One cannot have expectations of how things work out. I understand the want to lock the doors to keep the people out, but one has to ask, how many people are pushed away from needed prayer when the doors are locked. Only an open door can receive.

[User 3]

That doesn't mean that gov't is controlling religion, and is still Constitutional in my mind.

Isn't free speech being violated if the pastors of these churches cannot endorse a candidate without violating their tax exempt status.

[Smiling JOe]

Sorry, I meant to say that it doesn't mean that gov't OWNS the church, as you stated. I'm no lawyer, but I'd guess that the churches are allowed to endorse a candidate. They just aren't exempt from taxes (which is a privilege), if they do so.

[Johnrudy]

One cannot have expectations of how things work out. I understand the want to lock the doors to keep the people out, but one has to ask, how many people are pushed away from needed prayer when the doors are locked. Only an open door can receive.

The United Methodist's slogan is, "Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors."

We could hire an armed guard (like all of our high schools) but we've decided against this as a solution (at least for now). It is about the staff & children's safety during the day, during the week, when the church has very few people (you know, "safety in numbers"). So, no, people can no longer come in to pray. We do however, make every effort to help redirect them to the village programs that offer support - we help in those funds. We've given $$ out of our own pockets at times when some have refused to leave.

We are located in an upscale neighborhood in a middle class suburb of Chicago, which of course has nothing to do with safety, but I want to be very clear that this is not an inner city church.

Our church is very large. It's unsettling to walk thru another part of the building and be confronted by several men asking for money, or find a man sleeping in a pew, or hide until after the doors are locked at the end of the work day. Use your imagination of what happens then. This has happened regularly. We HATE having to work behind locked doors. It goes against everything we stand for. But I also want my child and others to feel safe in their church home.

All over the country churches struggle with the dilemma of helping others at the risk of the safety of the staff and children.

"Only an open door can receive." You are so correct, SJ. And yes, we are a religion of inclusion - there are no barriers between the different faiths. Everyone is accepted.

But this is 2008. We can no longer remain naive.


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[Smiling JOe]

How do the Catholic Churches I've entered in NYC and Italy handle it? Never saw an armed guard, and the churches had open doors, and welcomed people every day. People were actually praying in the churches. What about hiring a guard, armed with the Word of God?

[Johnrudy]

How do the Catholic Churches I've entered in NYC and Italy handle it? Never saw an armed guard, and the churches had open doors, and welcomed people every day. People were actually praying in the churches. What about hiring a guard, armed with the Word of God?

I can't argue with your observations SJ & I don't have an answer. I would imagine the wealthier Catholic churches in NYC would logically have a high tech security system behind their centuries old facade. Quieter suburban locations are different than busy, crowded city streets w/ lots of people in and out.

This is not a win-win solution for us by any means. All I know is what I've posted above. We care about the safety of everyone while at the same time, try to pastor those in need, somehow.

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[Smiling JOe]

not picking on you, just posing thoughts. Here is another. What if the churches were stripped of material possessions? Would one still be able to present the message of God? Valuing the material things in the Church is something with which Jesus wouldn't likely agree, would it? It is interesting to witness how much we have strayed from ministering in today's churches. Safety of children seems to be an entirely different issue, and perhaps good reason for security measures. However, it seems that sometimes we are imprisoning ourselves with our fortress walls.

[scooterbug44]

Sadly, most churches (worldwide) are now only open certain hours and have a staff member present/monitoring the sanctuary during those hours to deal with the security issues mentioned.

The only church I've ever been to w/ visible armed guards is St. Peter's, but I've seen many security systems and personnel at other churches.

The church's wealth/potential portables are not the reason for the security - vandalism and the safety of their congregation are.

[Johnrudy]

not picking on you, just posing thoughts. Here is another. What if the churches were stripped of material possessions? Would one still be able to present the message of God? Valuing the material things in the Church is something with which Jesus wouldn't likely agree, would it? It is interesting to witness how much we have strayed from ministering in today's churches. Safety of children seems to be an entirely different issue, and perhaps good reason for security measures. However, it seems that sometimes we are imprisoning ourselves with our fortress walls.

I know you're just posting thought provoking issues. But It really is a NEW dilemma, one that clergy and the board are tired of addressing instead of pastoring and doing what they do best. They would love to use their time to administer to world missions instead. (BTW, I am not particularly religious, my position in the church fits an altogether different need.)

Material possessions? Most are not like Jim Bakker's church. Other than our pittance of a salary (& many times I'm asked to donate my time in lieu of a check), utilities, general upkeep, material possessions are at a minimum. SJ, I'm speaking only for the Methodist church. There are many other churches/religions that are quite wealthy.

You know, it is what it is. I personally don't see any change in what's currently a huge problem. One that I'm sure was never taught in seminary. And praying for an answer is not a viable solution. Being proactive is.

[Smiling JOe]

I bet most large churches have at least $10K+ in audio/electronics. The larger churches I've seen, have much more than that. I can understand not wanting vandals wrecking the place, and I'd be pissed if someone walked onto my porch and stole an extension cord. What if churches were just outdoor amphitheaters? Focus would be on preaching, being surrounded by God's building, Mother Nature. Not much to vandalize and not much to steal.

[Teresa]

How do the Catholic Churches I've entered in NYC and Italy handle it? Never saw an armed guard, and the churches had open doors, and welcomed people every day. People were actually praying in the churches. What about hiring a guard, armed with the Word of God?

hey sj. not all catholic churches keep their doors open these days, even in europe. the main cathedrals with lots of visitors remain open. but smaller ones do not - mass is typically each morning, and some evenings. plus, the priest and/or staff keeps office hours at the church throughout the week. with set times for church doors to be open for parishioners and visitors. in other words, the church has set hours to be open, probably morning, with office hours in the office or rector.

in italy, it seemed that the bigger cities had the churches with locked doors (only the smaller ones); the smaller towns - the churches seemed to be mostly open - though I didn't try all the doors!

[Johnrudy]

I bet most large churches have at least $10K+ in audio/electronics. The larger churches I've seen, have much more than that. I can understand not wanting vandals wrecking the place, and I'd be pissed if someone walked onto my porch and stole an extension cord. What if churches were just outdoor amphitheaters? Focus would be on preaching, being surrounded by God's building, Mother Nature. Not much to vandalize and not much to steal.

It hilarious that you mention this, the 10K in electronic media. We would love it someone came in and stole our crappy stuff. New equipment has been on our wish list for years now. The Willow Creeks of the world have all that you mention and more so they can "entertain" their congregation. But I can almost guarantee you, they do not leave their doors open for people to wander in and pray during the day. You would need an appointment to see a pastor if it's not during worship.

SJ, large churches like ours are suffering. Recession hits churches too. The congregation goes thru layoffs and the families have to cut back in their giving, the church budget gets cut, church employees are laid off. It's like any other business or school. Curriculum needs to be purchased, music, instruments, food to feed the needy, mission trips.

Not everybody wants an amphitheater setting, at least not up here. (SJ, I rarely even attend church but I totally get what you mean. I find faith in other ways than inside a church.)

I apologize if I made it appear that we keep our doors locked because of vandals. Ours is much more about safety.

[Johnrudy]

hey sj. not all catholic churches keep their doors open these days, even in europe. the main cathedrals with lots of visitors remain open. but smaller ones do not - mass is typically each morning, and some evenings. plus, the priest and/or staff keeps office hours at the church throughout the week. with set times for church doors to be open for parishioners and visitors. in other words, the church has set hours to be open, probably morning, with office hours in the office or rector.

in italy, it seemed that the bigger cities had the churches with locked doors (only the smaller ones); the smaller towns - the churches seemed to be mostly open - though I didn't try all the doors!

Amen. That's what I'm talking about.

[scooterbug44]

What if churches were just outdoor amphitheaters? Focus would be on preaching, being surrounded by God's building, Mother Nature. Not much to vandalize and not much to steal.

Nice idea, but it only works in some climates and even then only on certain days at certain times.

One of my favorite churches is the Pinewoods Chapel - located out in the middle of a woods w/ plank benches on supports made of local rocks. No electronics, no built structure, only the programs, musical instruments, and Bible aren't exposed to the elements 24/7. A lot of services get rained out during the few months it can be used due to its northern location.

[User 3]

Nice idea, but it only works in some climates and even then only on certain days at certain times.

One of my favorite churches is the Pinewoods Chapel - located out in the middle of a woods w/ plank benches on supports made of local rocks. No electronics, no built structure, only the programs, musical instruments, and Bible aren't exposed to the elements 24/7. A lot of services get rained out during the few months it can be used due to its northern location.

I think we may have lost sight to what the church really is. The "church" buildings we attend are nothing more than buildings. The people are the church because without the people the building is just a building. The people are the body of Christ who come together in assembly halls, houses, parks, and beaches to praise, worship, etc. The people are the church, which allows "church" to happen anywhere.