Multi-Use Path (bike path)

[Terp22]

The Friends of Timpoochee Trail is a local group of cyclists who have safety in mind and are continuously working with Walton County to try and make thing happen-it's not easy and we could use as much help as possible. If you see things wrong like a golf cart using the path or a car or truck parked on the path call or email Commissioner Meadows office, meacindy@co.walton.fl.us , 622-3059. New signage is to be installed this month(hopefully) which will be great in terms of Warnings, identifying areas, park trails, mile markers, stop signs, trail crossing road, towns, etc.

Meanwhile we continuously fight developers and utilities companies cutting the path and not repairing in a timely manner or just not repairing He's the latest example-sorry for the email trail (no pun)but you can see this goes back to July;

Oh my, now what a mess-they just piled sand on top of the pavers! It's an obstacle course for anyone using the path and very dangerous-what is the county going to do to get this corrected today, this week? Please let me know.
This calls for action-we are talking three months since the path was destroyed-does anyone care?


Jim-I understand what happened-thanks for the explanation. Hopefully the developer will be "good guys" to the neighborhood/tourists and all users of the multi-use path and allow these pavers to be replaced with a smooth asphalt surface (the county should be willing to fund part or all cost as it wasn't the developers fault). I feel that whomever purchases this home won't want to everyone who users the path to "despise" this area and look at the owners as "unfriendly to local citizens as well as tourists.
Thank You,

Mr. Betz,

It does appear that the open faced pavers were approved as a component
of the stormwater exfiltration system. This project was submitted,
reviewed and approved in 2004, long before the county began reviewing
with the new typical design for multi-purpose path surfaces. Thanks to
yours and Mr. McClary's efforts, this issue has brought to light. I am
working with the developer, his agent and other county departments to
find a quick solution that will benefit all.

Thank you again for your diligence.

Jim Harman

Jim Harman
Walton County Development Order Inspector
850-622-1457
850-267-1827 fax

-----Original Message-----
From: Betz, Fred [mailto:FBetz@combe.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:20 PM
To: Jim Harman; danmcclary
Cc: Cindy Meadows
Subject: RE: Rosa Dunes aka Oasis
Importance: High

I just received the plans from the Commissioner's office where County
Engineering apparently approved "open" pavers-obviously a big mistake.
What's the next step as this is unacceptable for the path? I suggest
some negotiating be done with the developer to make this "right"-do
whatever it takes to correct this error on WC's part.
Thanks,

Fred Betz


45 Beach Walk Lane

Santa Rosa Beach, Florida 32459

850-267-2256

Fax 914-697-7948


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Harman [mailto:harjim@co.walton.fl.us]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:58 AM
To: danmcclary
Cc: Betz, Fred; Cindy Meadows
Subject: RE: Rosa Dunes aka Oasis

Mr. McClary,

I will find out what I can about the Sand Cliffs project. As to Alys
Beach, I did not ask them to change the lights. They may have done that
on their own.

Jim Harman

-----Original Message-----
From: danmcclary [mailto:danmcclary@mchsi.com]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:54 AM
To: Jim Harman
Cc: 'Betz, Fred'
Subject: FW: Rosa Dunes aka Oasis

Jim -

Sand Cliffs on the Gulf, located just west of Alys Beach, is re-building
their entrance. The new pavers were delivered Friday. The path runs
through the entrance. I asked the County many months ago (October 2006)
if
the Sand Cliffs design included pavers rather then pavement for the
path. I
didn't receive a response from Lyle's group.

Can you or someone check the Sand Cliffs plan/building permit before
work
starts and prevent a similar situation from arising as the one described
below?

Thanks. Also, looks like Alys Beach replaced the unsafe light fixtures
near
the east buttery with lights flush with the ground - I don't know
whether
they did it because we asked or not, but at least this hazard is
eliminated
- thanks.

Dan McClary
850-217-3894



-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Harman
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:59 AM
To: 'Darrell Barnhill'; 'Darrell Barnhill'
Cc: Tommy Hinote; Cindy Meadows
Subject: Rosa Dunes aka Oasis

Darrell,

A further inspection of the Rosa Dunes site showed the work has begun
for the installation of the paver system. However, the developer has
chosen to use an open face paver system. This is not an acceptable
surface for use within the bike path. They meet neither ADA standards or
the county typical for the path. Please have your client remove the open
faced pavers an install a suitable product. This needs to be done ASAP!

Thank you,

Jim Harman

Jim Harman
Walton County Development Order Inspector
850-622-1457
850-267-1827 fax

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Harman
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:54 AM
To: 'Darrell Barnhill'
Cc: Tommy Hinote
Subject: RE: Rosa Dunes aka Oasis

Darrell,

An inspection of this site yesterday showed that the work scheduled to
start on Friday July 20th has not commenced. Please inform your client
that one can not demolish a county amenity such as the multi-purpose
path and leave it in an unfinished state for an extended period of time.
This has been in it's current condition for at least one month. We have
received several complaints from users of the path.

This will be turned to Code Enforcement if not corrected immediately.
Monetary fines and stop work orders may be levied.

Please respond in writing with your proposed plan to rectify this
situation.

Thank you,

Jim Harman
Walton County Development Order Inspector
850-622-1457
850-267-1827 fax

-----Original Message-----
From: Darrell Barnhill [mailto:darrell@waltoncountyfl.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:01 PM
To: Jim Harman
Subject: Re: Rosa Dunes aka Oasis

Works is expected to start on July 20.
Thank you
Darrell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Harman" <harjim@co.walton.fl.us>
To: "Darrell Barnhill" <darrell@waltoncountyfl.com>
Cc: "Darrell Barnhill" <dudson@prodigy.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 5:44 AM
Subject: Rosa Dunes aka Oasis


Darrell,

Just a reminder to check on the schedule for completion of the road at
Rosa Dunes.

Thanks,

Jim

[seacrestkristi]

Terp22

Thanks for the 411! Glad to hear signage is going up along the path again. I can't believe how many people I've seen people parked all over the path, and the construction where we've had to ride on 30-A with the traffic going by. Very skeery.
I hope the signage also explains for bikers to PLEASE say, 'Passing on the L or R' loudly as not to surprise/run over walkers. I remember when we first visited sowal those signs helped us to know the rules. We just needed the education was all. Signs are grayt things for sowal.

[Smiling JOe]

Construction nightmares continue to cause problems along the bikepath and I don't know why the County allows it to be done. It is a huge safety issue. On Friday, I had bikers coming at me in my driving lane. They were avoiding the "Bike Path Detour." Location -- north side of 30A, between WaterColor and Seaside, where they are constructing the public parking lot. That gravel they laid down may be passible for good mountain biker, but not for the average user of the path in that area, who happen to be people who don't ride bikes often and are on beach cruisers with children in tow or on their own bikes. Sure, the construction company placed a detour sign at each end of the construction along the bike path, but they never warned the motorists that due to the crappy detour surface, that inexperience bikers would be traveling in the opposite direction from the cars, in the same 10ft width of heavily traveled road.

I will also note that when the construction guys put up the detour signs or path closed signs, they typically do so right at the place of construction and that makes most bikers have to go across loose sand, grass, or gravel to make alternate routes, and if you are on a road bike, you get screwed.

[kurt]

I vote for FEWER signs in SoWal (excepting temporary safety signs).

The arguments for permanent signs are usually increased safety, and increased useability and recognition of tourism. I believe more signs accomplish neither. They are not a sign (pun intended) of progress but rather, pollution.

[Smiling JOe]

...and I vote for fewer SOWAL stickers that seem to be stuck everywhere on public property. Talk about visual pollution...

I'm almost positive your boys would never stick one on a piece of gov't property. You don't seriously think that Kurt is encouraging people to stick the SoWal stickers onto public property, do you?

Personally, I don't think that installing signs will work at getting drivers to stop prior to the multi-use path. I see signs everywhere, and most are ignored. Yesterday, I noticed for the first time a sign on the window at Publix in WaterColor, warning would be thieves that the manager doesn't know have access to the safe when he or she is not on duty. Come on, give me a break. How many criminals take time to read signs like that? I've been shopping there since they opened, and I just now saw that sign. I had also driven along hwy 98 for a long time before I ever noticed the sign stating that a particular stretch of the highway was kept clean thanks to John R and friends.

[TNJed]

"Signs Signs everywhere a sign,
Blocking out the scenery breakin' my mind.
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?"

[Terp22]

Just so you know these sign will replace the old worn useless ones and have a common theme and were done with citizen input and discussion (many volunteer hours) -I think you will change your mind once you see them. You can see a booklet at Big Daddy's bike shop with all them in living color. These are not regular highway signs but are done by a professional company and actually look good besides being functional

[seacrestkristi]

If it'll help educate people to keep more people safe I think it's grayt. Thanks to the volunteers. I'm sure they'll be professional cuz of all the restrictions. They'll have to be low profile anyhow.

[kurt]

Just so you know these sign will replace the old worn useless ones and have a common theme and were done with citizen input and discussion (many volunteer hours) -I think you will change your mind once you see them. You can see a booklet at Big Daddy's bike shop with all them in living color. These are not regular highway signs but are done by a professional company and actually look good besides being functional

Thanks for posting. I do not mean to disrespect anyone's work. Signs are a sign of progress. I love our bike path.

Maybe I am already worried about all the political signs getting ready to appear everywhere again.

[seacrestkristi]

That was ridunkulous!!!

[scooterbug44]

I don't think there are too few signs, I think they are too few people who READ and OBEY the signs!

All places where the path "crosses" a driveway should be smooth asphalt or concrete, not the many varieties of uneven pavers. Would also be nice if the businesses whose gravel drives/parking areas are constantly pushing gravel onto the path made a concerted effort to keep the path clean.

My bike has a bell so folks can hear me when I am approaching/wanting to pass. I grew up on a multiuse path and the protocol was 2 dings to let people know you're passing. Hard to hear voices over ipods, traffic, etc, but my little fischer price bell works great!

[seacrestkristi]

2 dings=PASSING I didn't grow up by any bike path so thanks for sharing this. Wonder what's one ringy dingy?

[scooterbug44]

It's not a rule that 2 dings means passing, more common sense - just 1 ding they hear it and have no idea what it was, 3 or more they think it's an ice cream truck or some kid being a pest (or a scooterbug who is far too easily entertained.)

[TNJed]

What about 2 dings and a dong?

[scooterbug44]

Whatever floats your boat and clears the path! I'll stick to my 2 dings (actually more like BRRRRRRRRRing, BRRRRRRRing)!

[seacrestkristi]

[Smiling JOe]

With so many people rocking out on their iPods, I wouldn't assume that any number of ring, rings would get people to move.

[scooterbug44]

They'll hear MY bell! Great for making oblivious folks jump! If they don't hear, that's what the thick tires and brakes are for - just go around on the road/grass or wait for an opening.

[NoHall]

Thanks for posting. I do not mean to disrespect anyone's work. Signs are a sign of progress. I love our bike path.

Maybe I am already worried about all the political signs getting ready to appear everywhere again.

A few years ago I noticed the signs between Grayton and Seaside, and thought they were very practical and informative. But I'm a rule follower. I need boundaries.

The kids around here have funn with the political signs. They swipe them all and put them in one person's yard. (They've been known to do that with real estate signs, too.) Nevertheless, I hate 'em, too.

2 dings=PASSING I didn't grow up by any bike path so thanks for sharing this. Wonder what's one ringy dingy?

If I had a bell, I'd end up falling off the bike. I'm not that coordinated.

With so many people rocking out on their iPods, I wouldn't assume that any number of ring, rings would get people to move.

An airhorn, on the other hand...

[RiverOtter]

While we're at it..... Can we get signs put up on the multi use path instructing people that just because there are 4 to ...... I dunno say 20 in their party they don't need to walk side by side down the path.

[Terp22]

we have asked the county to paint a white line down the center of the path as many path have to keep people on their side. Don't know if it's going to happen. Just heard yesterday that n ow it looks like 2008 before any new signs will be put in place

[Jdarg]

The bike path from Grayton to Watercolor was the BEST yesterday- it was pouring rain and I had it all to myself. It was almost weird.

[RiverOtter]

The bike path from Grayton to Watercolor was the BEST yesterday- it was pouring rain and I had it all to myself. It was almost weird.

Jdarg playing in the rain by herself. Doesn't suprise me a bit

[Jdarg]

Jdarg playing in the rain by herself. Doesn't suprise me a bit

Just saw the forecast. Looks like it will happen more than once this week! My shoes will never dry out....

[seacrestkristi]

Aaah, who needs shoes in sowal?

[RiverOtter]

Just saw the forecast. Looks like it will happen more than once this week! My shoes will never dry out....

2 words....... Tee Vaas

[Jdarg]

2 words....... Tee Vaas

Run in sandals? Good grief I can barely run as it is!

[scooterbug44]

Are there plans (besides better/more signage) to improve the path as part of the scenic 30-A designation or are they just focusing on minutiae like paint colors?

A continuous asphalt path w/ a center stripe from one end to another would be great!

[Smiling JOe]

I think that the fact that the people using the multi-use path don't know to stay to the right when being passed or facing oncoming traffic on the path and that they would need a white stripe painted down the center, is caution enough for me to stay off the path.

[scooterbug44]

They can't figure out a bike path, so you'd rather be on the road w/ them and their SUVs?

[Smiling JOe]

They can't figure out a bike path, so you'd rather be on the road w/ them and their SUVs?

Personally, I'd rather be in the woods, or on an isolated beach.

[Terp22]

Scooterbug-suggest you look at plans in book at Big Daddy's bike shop. Ask Judah or Peggy for it.

[Capricious]

What are the laws in Florida concerning riding bicycles on roads?

I commute to work via bicycle (in another state; 21 miles round trip)
and I am required to be on the road

[RiverOtter]

What are the laws in Florida concerning riding bicycles on roads?

I commute to work via bicycle (in another state; 21 miles round trip)
and I am required to be on the road

Same as most places. Totally legal. Just watch out for Uncle Timmy and Scooterbug ........ (couple of bike haters )
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[scooterbug44]

What are the laws in Florida concerning riding bicycles on roads?

I commute to work via bicycle (in another state; 21 miles round trip)
and I am required to be on the road

We have many miles of bike/multiuse paths along 30A and it's north/south connectors. It's not like other places where you have to ride in the road instead of on the sidewalk etc. People here ride in the road because of tire size/personal preference.

[Capricious]

I can think of one reason to ride on the road and not the path;

About (2) years ago I was driving while following another
vehicle. We turned right off of 30A into some private residence
(can't remember exactly where) where I had never been
before and out from behind some landscaping comes a
cyclist that I never saw because of shrubbery/
trees/whatever along the path.

He had the right-of-way and I would have gladly yielded
if I had seen the guy. He avoided running into the side
of my vehicle as at that point there was nothing I could do
to get out of his way.

My point being that the path presents many blind spots that
are not a concern to slow-moving pedestrians but are a big
hazard to a fast moving bike that can cover a lot of ground
rather quickly. Out of the road, the cyclist is much more
visible (not much shrubbery in the road.)

[scooterbug44]

Biking on the path vs. on the road is the Sowal version of sunni vs. shiite!

[Smiling JOe]

Try that spot of the multi-use path in front of the new public parking between Seaside and WC. It is now gravel. Ouch!

[Terp22]

Smiling JOe-please write or call Commissioner Meadows office and ask them to correct. The more different people who go to her the better to get their attention as it's usually me or Dan.
Thanks!

[rapunzel]

This thread calls the path a multi-use path, but I keep hearing it referred to as a bike path.

A lot of the signs were designed to be seen by people riding a bike at 20 mph (Stop Ahead, then a Stop). Do any of you think it's safe to go that fast on the multi-use path?

Someone threw out the idea of a speed limit at the last sign meeting. Does that seem like a good idea?

[scooterbug44]

I think we need to pick our battles and be sparing w/ the signs. We are dealing w/ a population that is befuddled by basic signage and the beach flag system. Realistically, anyone who doesn't have the basic common sense to moderate their speed and can't follow basic signs & road rules is not at all likely to have the means to measure or pay attention to their speed.

My short list for local bike education is getting through to them that they need lights & reflectors after dark and need to obey stop signs.

On a happier note, the recent cutting back of the pathside foliage from the edges of the path was a good move - really helps w/ the visibility.

[LivinEasy]

This thread calls the path a multi-use path, but I keep hearing it referred to as a bike path.

A lot of the signs were designed to be seen by people riding a bike at 20 mph (Stop Ahead, then a Stop). Do any of you think it's safe to go that fast on the multi-use path?

Someone threw out the idea of a speed limit at the last sign meeting. Does that seem like a good idea?

I was kayaking around western Lake yesterday, trying to take some pictures, and all I could think of was that damn Tesla song, "Signs......Sings, signs, eveywhere signs. Blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind." Sorry I had to qoute that song, but it is hard to take a picture of the beautiful scenery here in walton county without having to photoshop signs out of your pictures. "there were stay off the dunes every 10 feet. No boat launching every 20'. No littering. the signs are just as bad as the litter. (not really, but you understand what i am trying to say). Next time your are one the bike path, just start counting the signs. you will be amazed. What the county needs is to come up with a signage plan to start combining and cleaning up the signage that is already out there. Please, lets not add to it.

[Mermaid]

We have a wonderful multi-use path, the Monon Path, in Indianapolis. I'll take my bike and camera out on the path today to take pics of the signage we have. Meanwhile, here are our path rules. I got them from the parks website and to tell you the truth, I don't remember is they're posted on a sign anywhere. I haven't been on the path yet this spring.

GREENWAY/TRAIL ETIQUETTE
Indianapolis has one of the best Greenway systems in the country! These multi-use trails are for the recreation and enjoyment of all residents. Indy Parks strongly encourages all trail users to abide by the following safety guidelines:

1. Trail hours: Dawn to dusk

2. Keep to the right; communicate before passing. Let other trail users know when you are approaching from behind. Signal by saying "passing on your left" and give others time to respond accordingly.

3. Maintain control and safe speed. Adjust your speed to accommodate for other users, traffic and trail conditions.

4. Pedestrians have the right-of-way on the Greenways. Bicycle riders and in-line skaters must yield to all other trail users. Parents: please keep children from wandering into oncoming trail lane to avoid accidents.

5. Share the trail and be courteous. Indy Parks Greenways are multi-use recreational trails appropriate for walkers, joggers, in-line skaters and bicycle riders. Please Respect others, regardless of their mode of travel.

6. Do not trespass or cut through adjacent properties or yards to access a Greenway.

7. Stop for cross traffic and obey all signage.

8. Respect the trail environment. Do not disturb the wildlife or the many native plants and wildflowers that grow along the Greenway.

9. Pick up litter and place in trash bins. Please remove all pet waste.

10. Keep pets on short leashes (4-6 feet max.) If using a retractable leash, please keep pets near you.


*******
There's no mention of bike speed limits but I believe it's either 12 or 15 miles an hour. 20mph is rather fast for casual cyclists.

[scooterbug44]

I really think so much of it is people w/ no clue, not a lack of signage or rules.

I grew up on a 20 km bike path around a lake - the majority of the path was on residential city streets and a dedicated multi-use path w/ a center stripe (near the university and downtown area). The path is used by locals, visitors, and college students, bikers (casual and serious), walkers, joggers, rollerbladers, etc. with minimal problems.

There are maybe 10 signs along the length of that entire route that are not directional signs (required because the route gets funky due to dead end streets & bridges in some of the neighborhoods.)

IMO there should be:

1) A well maintained path system (w/ a center stripe) separate from the roadway and of a consistent material.

2) Brush/landscaping w/in a certain number of feet of the path should be kept trimmed back and low for better visibility.

3) Businesses/homes w/ gravel or sand drives should be required to keep the path in front of that area clean and anyone whose sprinkler is hitting the path should be fined.

4) Minimal signage

[Mermaid]

1) A well maintained path system (w/ a center stripe) separate from the roadway and of a consistent material.

The path is not wide enough for the center stripe, but there ought to be well-painted zebra stripes across 30-A where there are crossings. Some are so faded as not to be noticeable to motorists.

[scooterbug44]

Most of the current asphalt path is wider than the striped path I was referencing.

Typically wherever this path changes materials or is next to the road it gets too narrow for a stripe, which is why a consistent path was part of my wish list. IMO the typical path user on a bike should not be right next to the traffic .

[Will B]

I was kayaking around western Lake yesterday, trying to take some pictures, and all I could think of was that damn Tesla song, "Signs......Sings, signs, eveywhere signs. Blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind." Sorry I had to qoute that song...

HA HA HA!!! Sorry, but I have to do this. Nothing like dating yourself in a thread. I bet 2/3 of the people on the board remember "Signs" being done by 5 Man Electrical Band, myself included. OK...now I've dated myself, too.

Gotta admit... the Tesla cover is good, but there's nothing like the original!

[organicmama]

The path is not wide enough for the center stripe, but there ought to be well-painted zebra stripes across 30-A where there are crossings. Some are so faded as not to be noticeable to motorists.

ITA with so much of what Scooterbug said, but Mermaid's right on the width issue. It's not wide enough to have a stripe, although it is a nice idea. Okay, so if it was all uniform in width, that would make a difference and it would be a great help.

Common sense is key. Education of the public regarding safety issues and ENFORCING the code that NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES are allowed on the path would help a great deal. The golf-carts drive me nuts.

Making it clear that stop signs for the streets are BEFORE the path, instead of on the path would help.

We were out with a stroller, 2 pedestrians & a bike with training wheels this morning on the west end of the path. I just made sure to keep The Wedge on the right side of the path, especially when others were approaching. I told her to think of it as mommy driving, to stay on the right side at all times.

The idea of signs along the trail would just add to the confusion. There are too many signs already for the actual road, other streets and the for sale signs. It would all just blend in to chaos even more.

I am in the process of switching our family to a more car-free way of living and so the safety issues regarding the multi-use path are very much on my mind at the moment. With 3 kids & 2 adults, I'd like to see improvements made but signage is not a part of that.

The idea of the wide zig-zag lines where the path crosses roads is a good idea. Not that motorists would like this one, but also in very high traffic areas, a raised path crossing should be considered as a possibility, as in Seagrove, although that one needs to be re-lined so it stands out more.

[Smiling JOe]

This thread calls the path a multi-use path, but I keep hearing it referred to as a bike path.

A lot of the signs were designed to be seen by people riding a bike at 20 mph (Stop Ahead, then a Stop). Do any of you think it's safe to go that fast on the multi-use path?

Someone threw out the idea of a speed limit at the last sign meeting. Does that seem like a good idea?

The path is a multi-use path by name and use. I actually see more walkers than riders on the path.

IMO, speedlimits for the path would be unenforeable as users need no license to be on the path, bicycles rarely have speedometers, and police officers and Code Enforcement cannot even keep down the speeds on the highway.

Is riding on the path at 20 mph asking for trouble? Absolutely.

[scooterbug44]

Watching the daily confusion at the Seagrove crossing/WheelHouse is part of what makes me convinced that additional signage is not the solution - consistency, a clear path, and upkeep are. Of the many signs along the path, I would classify few as helpful or truly necessary.

I will go out on a rather sturdy limb and say that the majority of our visitors do not ride a bicycle anywhere besides Sowal and so are unfamiliar with the BASIC rules of the road.

(Another theory is that they ride bikes just like they drive, but I am trying to be constructive.)