St. Joe Big Box development comes to SoWal

Neocrete · 08-14-2009, 11:15 AM

St Joe has unveiled it's conceptual PUD master plan for 183.5 acres on hwy 98, beginning at the intersection of 30-A and continuing west past W. Hewett Rd. Get this... the plan not only includes a massive 80,000 sq. ft. big box, but 5 more in the range of 25,000 to 45,000 sq. ft. Here's the basic breakdown:
Phase one- 80,000 sq. ft. BIG BOX store.
Phase two- directly behind the big box, 4 apartment bldgs for seniors, 190 units and a 110 unit assisted living facility.
Phase three- TWO 25,000 sq. ft. retail bldgs. with a 10' setback on W. Hewett Rd. A 5,400 sq. ft. gas station and a 6,000 sq. ft. restaurant.
Phase four- A 45,000 sq. ft. retail with an additional 12,900 sq. ft. attached. A 5,000 sq. ft. office bldg., 2 restaurants @ 6000 or so sq. ft. each and a 13,225 sq. ft. pharmacy.
Phase five- Another 3 big retail stores @ 35,000, 28,000 and 11,836 sq. ft. plus a bank and another restaurant @ 6000 sq. ft.
Phase six- 10 apartment bldgs. with 310 units.

Now as I sit on my deck at night, instead of dark skys and stars I'll see 4 story apartment bldgs and the loading docks for big box stores. Increased traffic, noise and pollution, along with decreased property value in the immediate area, is how we will benefit. I completely understand and agree that St Joe has the right to develop their property however they also have a responsibility to the residents of this community, to exercise restraint. My neighbor will be within 20 feet of this project.

This matter is set to go before the county commisioners on August 25th.

After 20 years of living in this great area, I never dreamed we would allow Santa Rosa Beach to become Panama City or Destin.

seagrovegirl · 08-14-2009, 11:28 AM

I agree , according to your post, it seems to be a bit much and I wouldn't want it for a neighbor either!!!! I love your porch!

sunspotbaby · 08-14-2009, 11:40 AM

Oh dear God NOOOOO! Neocrete, I know where you live. I live a few blocks away. One of the things I love most is sitting outside and being able to see the stars.

Is there anything we can do to stop this insane amount of crap stores and asphalt?? Isn't there some endangered species around ?? FTLOG, I hate hearing this.

let me know what we can do...if anything.

austin101 · 08-14-2009, 11:48 AM

Company History:
Lowe's Companies, Inc., is the second-largest home improvement retailer in the United States (trailing Home Depot Inc.), holding about six percent of the $140 billion home improvement market. More than 400 Lowe's stores in 24 states--mainly in the Midwest and Southeast--serve the do-it-yourself home improvement, home decor, home repair, and home construction markets. Primarily located in small and medium-sized markets, Lowe's stores average more than 75,000 square feet; this average is growing, however, as the company now typically builds 100,000-square-foot units in smaller markets and 114,000-square-foot units in larger markets.

dmarie · 08-14-2009, 11:55 AM

I guess this was just a matter of time. I wouldn't want this as my neighbor either. Makes me embrace little ole Historic Pt. Washington that much more.

Here4Good · 08-14-2009, 11:56 AM

This is interesting. I would not have dreamed that they would be launching this right now, between the general economy and their own financials.

Does anyone know, if they get the PUD approved, how long they can wait before they have to break ground? Are they perhaps going for the approval now because they think that the commission will be a little "soft" during this economic period?

Interesting indeed. I keep waiting for the stores to start disappearing from Grand Boulevard like little bubbles bursting....pop! pop! pop!

rapunzel · 08-14-2009, 12:03 PM

How is/was this parcel zoned?

This is precisely why we need transect-based planning. There should be a soft, staged transition between residential and large scale commercial.

And the night sky -- how can the leadership/TDC not see that the dark sky with the Milky Way visible is one of our great assets as a destination?

aggieb · 08-14-2009, 12:11 PM

buh bye sowal.

kurt · 08-14-2009, 12:26 PM

It has always been inevitable that 98 from 331 to Destin would all pretty much look the same some day (except for Topsail). As for timing, this is the time to start projects that will build out over the next 20 years, maybe not tomorrow.

The residential and commercial property between 331 and Inlet Beach will be in high demand.

Neocrete · 08-14-2009, 12:30 PM

Thanks for everyone's comments and concern and Here4Good you are exactly right. The overall mood of the planning commision was very positive about the project. Their only exceptions were parking, which St. Joe contends should be reduced because this will be a "walking community" with seniors, and no proposed turns lanes into the development off east or west Hewett Rd. (Whens the last time you saw elderly pedestrian traffic through the shopping center with Best Buy and Petsmart in Destin?). Quite frankly, I didnt stay to hear the planning commission give their approval. I needed fresh air.

It has been proven time and time again that big box stores hurt local economies. They pay lower wages and send profits out of state. The incresed need for municipal services almost cancels the tax benefit in the long run, not to mention what this will do for our local small retailers who have worked their butt off surviving our fickle economy.

All this being said, I dont have a problem with St. Joe developing this property, just not with this denisty and with larger buffers to the residents who live in this area.

SHELLY · 08-14-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here4Good

This is interesting. I would not have dreamed that they would be launching this right now, between the general economy and their own financials.

This is EXACTLY the right time for them to launch this thing. They know they can get away with it because they'll tout "It's good for the economy...Florida has the highest unemployment rate since 19XX...it will serve the community" and other such tripe. Developers use down economies so they can fly their future money-making (but bad for the environment/neighborhood) deals under the radar. JOE is essentially paying big bucks to their execs to sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the market to bottom--might as well get them off their collective arses and throw Sh** against the wall and see what sticks.

.

Neocrete · 08-14-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHELLY

This is EXACTLY the right time for them to launch this thing. They know they can get away with it because they'll tout "It's good for the economy...Florida has the highest unemployment rate since 19XX...it will serve the community" and other such tripe. Developers use down economies so they can fly their future money-making (but bad for the environment/neighborhood) deals under the radar. JOE is essentially paying big bucks to their execs to sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the market to bottom--might as well get them off their collective arses and throw Sh** against the wall and see what sticks.

.

Shelly Thanks for making me laugh.

maxman · 08-14-2009, 01:22 PM

Placing Lowe's there is by far the worst. Their reasoning might be that SoWalers don't want to travel to HomeDepot. ??? Some restaurants ,some retail maybe. But to over do it seems to be the norm.

Desso · 08-14-2009, 01:37 PM

I had a developer tell me before The Emerald Coast Pkwy. was opened and Hwy. 98 to PC was four-laned, that in 15 to 20 years most of the land close to the road between Destin and PC would be developed. I thought he was crazy. We are well on our way. I am afraid I would vote for a Chick-fil-A though. Resistance is futile- The Borg.

Smiling JOe · 08-14-2009, 02:01 PM

I missed the connection with Lowe's since it seems from the earlier post that Lowe's building need much more sq ft, than is being submitted in the first post.

I agree that Transect Planning is desperately needed. I will also add that one who buys a home next to a large parcel, should be at least a little concerned of what that neighboring property could become in the future, even if it's current land use is agricultural. Look at all the rural agricultural property along hwy 20, east of Freeport, which will one day (maybe 25 years down the road) has great potential to be industrial, commerical, or residential, as the West Bay sector around the new PCB airport comes to life.

Always ask questions. Worse than the light pollution, well, maybe just as bad, will be traffic lights every 1/8 of a mile down hwy 98 in SoWal.

Desso · 08-14-2009, 02:01 PM

Neocrete, I doubt they pay lower wages than what already exist in this area. Check census income levels for single male, single female, and families in "Paradise" and you will be appalled. My company did two feasibility studies for foreign corporations who wanted to set up shop in this area. Walton rates high in low wages and available workforce. Low in affordable housing and infrastructure (public transport, educational opportunities, etc). The money doesn't live here, it visits.

beachmouse · 08-14-2009, 02:06 PM

There's a huge push right now to rezone for anything that a developer might do in the next 15-20 years because the big players are terrified that the Hometown Democracy Amendment is going to pass, and that could significantly restrict the developer's ability to rezone large parcel of land.

So a lot of projects are trying to get approvals through in the next six months, even when the timeline for building and build outs is relatively far out there in the future.

closer2fine · 08-14-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desso

I had a developer tell me before The Emerald Coast Pkwy. was opened and Hwy. 98 to PC was four-laned, that in 15 to 20 years most of the land close to the road between Destin and PC would be developed. I thought he was crazy. We are well on our way. I am afraid I would vote for a Chick-fil-A though. Resistance is futile- The Borg.

I'd vote for a CostCo.

Smiling JOe · 08-14-2009, 03:17 PM

just peeked at the land use code for this property and it appears to be "Town Center."

I also notice that the State Park owns the 30acre parcel, also zoned "Town Center" just to the west of this property, on hwy 98, directly west of Goldsby Rd all the way to Mack Bayou Rd. I wonder if we are getting ready to see a switch of some property between JOE and the State Park.

I repeat, with single family homes backing up to this parcel, we desparately need Transect Zoning. It would be beneficial for all, including developers.

Attached, you will see a map of the subject property. Though the wetland overlay on the County Maps is an estimated area of wetlands, it seems that most of this JOE property appears to be wetlands. On the map, the yellow is the subject property, and the wetlands show as light blue with a diagonal stripe.

ForestBayGal · 08-14-2009, 04:08 PM

Unfortunately, neither Walton or Okaloosa co's have exhibited the foresight to demand certain buffer enhancements/aesthetic requirements of big box establisments as do many other states & communities. For example, the Walmart in Destin brings in oodles$ but has next to zero landscaping, no visual buffer for the delivery areas, does not appear to even pick up trash at the median entering the side road etc.. However, Apple Valley MN expected, demanded & received from Walmart a brick facade, a complete rear delivery area with nicely landscaped berms which obstruct the nasty view of 18 wheelers delivering & all the stuff which sits about (as in Destin), trees thru out the parking lots etc. i.e. expect, demand, & only with written guarantees of performance & subsequent continuing upkeep give approval for them to benefit from us! It is backward here-they promise a few low paying jobs & everyone bends over backward so they can throw up a mess while laughing all the way to the bank. Our County Planning Dept & BCC need to realize that they would not be choosing us if they did not feel they could make a nice return on their investment. Hold their feet to the fire for a develop. order. Perhaps we can obtain some photos of examples of how big boxes are expected to perform elsewhere & bring those to the planning commission/bcc. PS Costco would be nice -if dressed up!

passin' thru · 08-14-2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rapunzel

And the night sky -- how can the leadership/TDC not see that the dark sky with the Milky Way visible is one of our great assets as a destination?

The dark sky USED TO be a great asset here.

But every time a Tom Thumb gets reworked, with another 1 billion candlepower of mercury vapor lights blazing into the night sky, every time another beachwear shop in Miramar is allowed to shine about 2 billion candlepower of vapor lamps onto the exterior of their buildings -- and nobody does or says anything about it -- a little more of the night sky goes away.

NotDeadYet · 08-14-2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

I also notice that the State Park owns the 30acre parcel, also zoned "Town Center" just to the west of this property, on hwy 98, directly west of Goldsby Rd all the way to Mack Bayou Rd. I wonder if we are getting ready to see a switch of some property between JOE and the State Park.

I don't have a map of the State Forest handy, but that might be one of the out parcels the State will sell. The original plan for the checkerboard forest in that area was an acquisition and disposal plan that would have consolidated the forest and sold off the isolated parcels that are difficult to manage. But mostly the acquisition part of the plan didn't happen. Land got too valuable or was developed before the plan could be implemented. There are a few parcels of State land for sale, or there were last time I checked. If it's for sale and Joe wants it, they would have to buy it.

wrobert · 08-14-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neocrete

St Joe has unveiled it's conceptual PUD master plan for 183.5 acres on hwy 98, beginning at the intersection of 30-A and continuing west past W. Hewett Rd. Get this... the plan not only includes a massive 80,000 sq. ft. big box, but 5 more in the range of 25,000 to 45,000 sq. ft. Here's the basic breakdown:
Phase one- 80,000 sq. ft. BIG BOX store.
Phase two- directly behind the big box, 4 apartment bldgs for seniors, 190 units and a 110 unit assisted living facility.
Phase three- TWO 25,000 sq. ft. retail bldgs. with a 10' setback on W. Hewett Rd. A 5,400 sq. ft. gas station and a 6,000 sq. ft. restaurant.
Phase four- A 45,000 sq. ft. retail with an additional 12,900 sq. ft. attached. A 5,000 sq. ft. office bldg., 2 restaurants @ 6000 or so sq. ft. each and a 13,225 sq. ft. pharmacy.
Phase five- Another 3 big retail stores @ 35,000, 28,000 and 11,836 sq. ft. plus a bank and another restaurant @ 6000 sq. ft.
Phase six- 10 apartment bldgs. with 310 units.

Now as I sit on my deck at night, instead of dark skys and stars I'll see 4 story apartment bldgs and the loading docks for big box stores. Increased traffic, noise and pollution, along with decreased property value in the immediate area, is how we will benefit. I completely understand and agree that St Joe has the right to develop their property however they also have a responsibility to the residents of this community, to exercise restraint. My neighbor will be within 20 feet of this project.

This matter is set to go before the county commisioners on August 25th.

After 20 years of living in this great area, I never dreamed we would allow Santa Rosa Beach to become Panama City or Destin.

YEAAAAAAAA!!!! Finally a place to shop in Walton County and leave my sales tax dollars.

wrobert · 08-14-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rapunzel

How is/was this parcel zoned?

This is precisely why we need transect-based planning. There should be a soft, staged transition between residential and large scale commercial.

And the night sky -- how can the leadership/TDC not see that the dark sky with the Milky Way visible is one of our great assets as a destination?

You of all people should know we have no zoning in Walton County. So can we look for the Democrats to be against growth even though they have said nothing about the commissioners providing themselves free family health care, layoffs of government workers, pay cuts, and turtle deaths?

wrobert · 08-14-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForestBayGal

Unfortunately, neither Walton or Okaloosa co's have exhibited the foresight to demand certain buffer enhancements/aesthetic requirements of big box establisments as do many other states & communities. For example, the Walmart in Destin brings in oodles$ but has next to zero landscaping, no visual buffer for the delivery areas, does not appear to even pick up trash at the median entering the side road etc.. However, Apple Valley MN expected, demanded & received from Walmart a brick facade, a complete rear delivery area with nicely landscaped berms which obstruct the nasty view of 18 wheelers delivering & all the stuff which sits about (as in Destin), trees thru out the parking lots etc. i.e. expect, demand, & only with written guarantees of performance & subsequent continuing upkeep give approval for them to benefit from us! It is backward here-they promise a few low paying jobs & everyone bends over backward so they can throw up a mess while laughing all the way to the bank. Our County Planning Dept & BCC need to realize that they would not be choosing us if they did not feel they could make a nice return on their investment. Hold their feet to the fire for a develop. order. Perhaps we can obtain some photos of examples of how big boxes are expected to perform elsewhere & bring those to the planning commission/bcc. PS Costco would be nice -if dressed up!

The WalMart in Destin looks cool. All blocky and sterile looking. Really neat.

Smiling JOe · 08-15-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

I don't have a map of the State Forest handy, but that might be one of the out parcels the State will sell. The original plan for the checkerboard forest in that area was an acquisition and disposal plan that would have consolidated the forest and sold off the isolated parcels that are difficult to manage. But mostly the acquisition part of the plan didn't happen. Land got too valuable or was developed before the plan could be implemented. There are a few parcels of State land for sale, or there were last time I checked. If it's for sale and Joe wants it, they would have to buy it.

I believe that State property I mention above is part of Topsail, but is separated by hwy 98. I am familiar with the State's "surplus property" and you are likely correct about it being one of the parcels they wanted to sell off. However, given JOE's history with the State, I wouldn't expect JOE to actually have to pay cash to obtain this property, especially if JOE owns property they are willing to trade, which is directly adjacent to other state park property, which would be easier to manage for the state park.

dude · 08-15-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neocrete

It has been proven time and time again that big box stores hurt local economies.

How so? Sales taxes which are now being sent to Okaloosa or Bay Counties will now stay in SRB. The improvement of the vacant land will generate additional RE taxes to the benefit of the county. Also seems like this will create more jobs; perhaps lower paying jobs but jobs & new consumers nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neocrete

They pay lower wages and send profits out of state.

lower labor costs = lower prices; which i like b/c then i can spend my savings at other local places. & the profits can easily come back to the state & your pocket via dividends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neocrete

The incresed need for municipal services almost cancels the tax benefit in the long run, not to mention what this will do for our local small retailers who have worked their butt off surviving our fickle economy.

Huh? & the latter is referred to as Darwinism or creative destruction. if you want to support local retailers please feel free to do so; but i'm going for best value

jdarg · 08-15-2009, 07:53 PM

Can you say Environmental Impact Statement? Such a large parcel must have some mitigation needs...

jr

soappedaler · 08-15-2009, 10:51 PM

The property north of 98 is not a part of Topsail. There's a parcel in that area that was designated Conservation Easement in the Settlement agreement between St. Joe and the State. From what I remember . St. Joe owns the property but it is held in a Conservation Easment, they can't do anything with it. The County maps had the property mislabeled for a while, not sure if it's been corrected.

Beach Runner · 08-16-2009, 12:11 AM

Is August 25th the date for the BCC meeting? I want to be there. I'll have to find a place to stay. Our house is rented.

passin' thru · 08-16-2009, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude

How so? Sales taxes which are now being sent to Okaloosa or Bay Counties will now stay in SRB. The improvement of the vacant land will generate additional RE taxes to the benefit of the county. Also seems like this will create more jobs; perhaps lower paying jobs but jobs & new consumers nonetheless.

lower labor costs = lower prices; which i like b/c then i can spend my savings at other local places. & the profits can easily come back to the state & your pocket via dividends.

Huh? & the latter is referred to as Darwinism or creative destruction. if you want to support local retailers please feel free to do so; but i'm going for best value

Dude, you're "thinking" as blindly as Walter does in your favorite film.

Instead of going for what you believe to be the best value, next time buy or order a copy of The Big Lebowski from the record store in Seaside .... and while you're there, also order a copy of

Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price

. The price on the item is usually not the true, whole price to society & local community.

Smiling JOe · 08-16-2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soappedaler

The property north of 98 is not a part of Topsail. There's a parcel in that area that was designated Conservation Easement in the Settlement agreement between St. Joe and the State. From what I remember . St. Joe owns the property but it is held in a Conservation Easment, they can't do anything with it. The County maps had the property mislabeled for a while, not sure if it's been corrected.

Thanks. Looking back at the maps to further investigate, I realize that I made an error in labeling the map which I posted above. Attached is a corrected version, according to the WalCo Property Appraiser's site, which you note, may be incorrect. The parcels which are adjacent to this JOE property and appear to be state owned with a land use of "Town Center," are:
30-2S-20-33230-000-001B
and
25-2S-21-42000-016-0000

beachmouse · 08-16-2009, 09:14 AM

So it's the parcel just to the west of where Albertson's has planned on building about 5ish years back? Seems like the general plan for that area had been larger scale commercial along US 98 for a while.

This is probably going to end up passing, so the thing I'd start focusing on is requiring a serious buffer area between the commercial and the residential, at least as much as there is between Kelly Plantation and the Marshall's/Fresh Market shopping area in Destin.

Leo Casas · 08-20-2009, 02:19 PM

how about taking another approach? the link takes you to a repair kit for sub-urban sprawl. Here we can do things right perhaps even before breaking ground! Urban Sprawl Repair Kit: Repairing The Urban Fabric « ReBurbia

http://www.re-burbia.com/wp-content/...lRepairKIT.jpg

http://www.re-burbia.com/wp-content/...pes_Page_1.jpg

Neocrete · 08-21-2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Casas

how about taking another approach? the link takes you to a repair kit for sub-urban sprawl. Here we can do things right perhaps even before breaking ground! Urban Sprawl Repair Kit: Repairing The Urban Fabric « ReBurbia

http://www.re-burbia.com/wp-content/...lRepairKIT.jpg

http://www.re-burbia.com/wp-content/...pes_Page_1.jpg

Leo
Thanks so much for your post. That is exactly what I was thinking but the pictures explain it best. This type of development is what Keith Howard has done at Grand Blvd. With the exception of Publix, the shops are pushed forward to the road with a common "market street" and most parking is behind the development creating a larger buffer. He has also included common space and wonderful aesthetics.

This will be the first major commercial project from Santa Rosa Beach to Inlet Beach. I hope that we can work together with Joe and the county to set a good precedent for the community.

Thanks again for the insightful information.

Neocrete · 08-24-2009, 09:06 PM

See prior post in Real Estate Forum - St Joe Big Box comes to So Wal
Also view Miller - McCune report posted on 8/24/09 in Real Estate Forum.

Walton county commissioners will review the proposed development @ 5:00 pm @ the Walton County courthouse in Defuniak Springs on Tuesday August 25th. Plan to attend or contact you commissioner.

SWGB · 08-24-2009, 11:59 PM

As much as I would love to see South Walton just freeze development and then listen to everyone complain the sky rocketing real estate prices I do have to say that this plan seems to fall right into the Transect planning model. I've been to two presentations and it seems to me that stepping from single family to multi family to commercial is right in line. Perhaps the steps aren't spaced as far enough apart, but it follows the curve pretty well. The only thing missing would be work/live between multi family and pure commercial.

kurt · 08-25-2009, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neocrete

This will be the first major commercial project from Santa Rosa Beach to Inlet Beach. I hope that we can work together with Joe and the county to set a good precedent for the community.

Thanks for posting, and being involved. I urge everyone to attend meetings to give input. Talk to developers and officials outside of meetings, and write letters and emails.

Also please know that by posting here, your views are seen by those who are making decisions, and you are participating in an important discourse, and means of providing education.

Smiling JOe · 08-25-2009, 08:36 AM

swgb, I don't see this as transect planning at all. The property goes from commercial big box stores to single family residential, with no transition at all. I have attended only one Transect Planning mtg, so maybe I'm missing something, but I thought that smooth transitions, not only of use, but size of buildings was critical to Transect Planning. Maybe one of the experts will chime in (please).

SWGB · 08-25-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smiling JOe

swgb, I don't see this as transect planning at all. The property goes from commercial big box stores to single family residential, with no transition at all. I have attended only one Transect Planning mtg, so maybe I'm missing something, but I thought that smooth transitions, not only of use, but size of buildings was critical to Transect Planning. Maybe one of the experts will chime in (please).

SJ, from the original post:

Quote:

Phase two- directly behind the big box, 4 apartment bldgs for seniors, 190 units and a 110 unit assisted living facility.

That would be the transition I was referring to. It's not exactly the visual for transect planning, but it's closer than a big box store backing up to an established single family community.

Smiling JOe · 08-25-2009, 02:58 PM

gotcha.

Smiling JOe · 08-25-2009, 03:41 PM

Staff report for "Topsail West":
http://www.co.walton.fl.us/DocumentView.aspx?DID=1168

Site plan:
http://www.co.walton.fl.us/DocumentView.aspx?DID=1166

kurt · 08-25-2009, 04:05 PM

Remind me again why parking goes in front of buildings please.

SWGB · 08-25-2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurt

Remind me again why parking goes in front of buildings please.

That's where the doors are usually located.

Seriously though I'm curious why they are adding Handicap spaces over and above the required amount. I can't remember the last time I saw all handicapped spaces in a parking lot utilized and even then there was always some jerk that didn't have the placard or plate to be there in the first place.

P.S. Kurt I'm all for putting the parking primarily below the structure. This is Florida seems like the smartest idea since it keeps your car cool while you are inside. It also keeps the light pollution at bay.

Smiling JOe · 08-25-2009, 06:31 PM

maybe the additional handicapped spaces are to encourage the elderly to look at the apartments for elderly, or the assisted living places. It isn't like they can actually walk to the big box stores from their places if they are handicapped.

Parking is usually at front so that people driving past know that there is actually shopping to do. I think the biggest complaint I hear from people in places where the parking is in back, eg- Flip Flops, LaBotana, etc, is that people don't know that it is even commercial -- there is no feeling of an entrance to get to the commercial, then when they park, they approach the businesses from the back. It is a little weird, but that parking in the back is what keeps the scenic in "scenic hwy," or so I'm told.

Smiling JOe · 08-25-2009, 06:34 PM

Parking underneath sounds great for keeping the car cool, but i bet is much more expensive to build the stores higher above ground and it is better for business to be on ground level. Out of sight, out of mind.

kurt · 08-25-2009, 07:52 PM

I don't need to see cars to know where to shop. Nor do I want to shop at Sacred Heart Hospital when I see all the cars out front. Although I do see an advantage of having trucks and loading docks in the rear.

SWGB · 08-26-2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smiling JOe

Parking underneath sounds great for keeping the car cool, but i bet is much more expensive to build the stores higher above ground and it is better for business to be on ground level. Out of sight, out of mind.

Yes elevating the store and it's 20 foot high letters would definitely lower the visibility.

Smiling JOe · 08-26-2009, 11:07 AM

SGWB, I understand what you are saying for the people driving past, but when people get out of their cars, and cannot see the stores, nor their signs, the stores are indeed out of sight. When they get out of their cars at Grand Blvd Publix, they can see most of the store signs from the parking lot. For big box stores, it wouldn't likely matter much regarding the visibility, because people go to those stores for specific needs. However, for a small store/business which hopes to feed off of walk-by foot traffic, second floor doesn't sell nearly as well as ground level.

That said, I do like the idea of less impact on the property by parking underneath, and I certainly would like the shade of parking on a hot summer day. Plenty of shopping malls make that work by providing parking decks, where real estate is at a premium.

With reference to Kurt's point about parking in front, I, too, like some of the shopping design of places like Destin Commons and Pier Park, where the store fronts are facing other stores and pedestrian foot traffic, with parking on the peripheral. I think Pier Park is laid out better because it doesn't have as much road frontage, compared to Destin Commons.

Here4Good · 08-26-2009, 11:19 AM

I am not sure it is a good idea to put anything underground around here. Go out into your yard and see how far down you have to go before you hit water - and that's when it's not raining. If it's more than 2 feet, you must live on a ridge.

I wouldn't park my car underground here.