Suicide Toll Fuels Worry That Army Is Strained - WSJ.com By YOCHI J. DREAZEN

Sixteen American soldiers killed themselves in October in the U.S. and on duty overseas, an unusually high monthly toll that is fueling concerns about the mental health of the nation's military personnel after more than eight years of continuous warfare.



The Army's top generals worry that surging tens of thousands more troops into Afghanistan could increase the strain felt by many military personnel after years of repeated deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan.

The October suicide figures mean that at least 134 active-duty soldiers have taken their own lives so far this year, putting the Army on pace to break last year's record of 140 active-duty suicides. The number of Army suicides has risen 37% since 2006, and last year, the suicide rate surpassed that of the U.S. population for the first time....these wars have lasted too long with no end in sight, the same troops have been redeployed too much.

So Bob, what do you think we should do to get the troops out? Or do you think leaving the troops there just have more incentives for them to stay? You know like when you where in the Military Bob, (Assuming you were) they had bonus's for staying in a combat theater or re-enlisting. What do you suggest we do? Your vast background in Military deployment could help resolve these issues.

Jack

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God is Great, God is Good!

The Army has strict rules on deployment timelines. If they pass the normal 12 month deployment (some exceptions have been approved for 15 months) all of the top ranking officials have to get together for a (POW WOW and get approval for the longer deployments. Then there is the rule of the dwell time. It is to be the length of the deployment. If dwell time is broken another pow wow and another approval process. The main issue of these exceptions to policy are for the combat engineers, medical, military intelligence, and military pollice. The high demand/low density specialist. Not the infantryman. There are plenty of them.

The high demand/low density guys are hard to find, they have to have exceptional apptitudes and lots of civilian and military training. Look how long it takes a nurse to get trained. A linguist is another story especially in the Arabic and Farsi languages, then the dialects of each. And then there is the fact that if one of these highly skilled individuals happens to admit being gay they are dismissed after the military has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to get them to the levels of expertise needed. They get kicked out and come back as contractors and the governments pays them sometimes 2 to 3 to 5 times what they were making as soldiers.

So it is not as easy as raise the force structure levels and our problems are solved.

I know of no one getting a bonus for staying deployed. Army units deploy as units and come home as units. Individuals deploy as augmentees normaly to a staff level position for 6 to 12 months and normally in the less dangerous locaitons. Soldiers are getting bonuses for enlisted in specific specialties and for reenlisting.

Contractors can stay for as long as they like and up to about 90K is tax free per year. May be a little higher or lower. The soldiers pay is tax free also, the officer's is to the level of the highest enlisted soldiers pay. The civil servant that volunteers to be deployed receives no extra benefits, ie tax break.

Air Force, Navy, and Marine deployments are six months. Not 12 to 15 or so. Therefore you hear of more problems in the Army.

And yes, we should pull out now and get those countries to pay us back the billions of dollars that we have wasted over there and put it into protecting ourselves on our own homeland......something called HOMELAND DEFENSE...HOMELAND PROTECTION.....HOMELAND SECURITY.

I think it would be great if the Army could have max 6 month deployments too - not 12 or 15. It's ridiculous that we do that to families and personnel in this day and age.

Yes, I know it is more expensive, but maybe if we stopped paying contractors so much to do the same job and giving them tax breaks we could afford it!

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Year + is not of this day and age as you say. I spent two tours in Viet Nam. This is nothing NEW. 13 months in Korea, where did you find that this was of this day and age?

Jack

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God is Great, God is Good!

Now what do you suggest we do to pull out the troops? Just set a date and tell the world on such and such a date at this certain time we will remove all our TROOPS from there? Just curious.

Jack

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God is Great, God is Good!

no need to for the condecension, am ex-military, ocs, with annapolis, west point brothers and cousins. we are stuck in afghanistan with a corrupt, weak central government like vietnam. there's no need for a macarthur or westmoreland play. we are in a protracted war of occupation with no clear goals other than keeping an unsustainable equilibrium. we can project power without ground forces. we at some point must admit the cost of this war is not worth the benefit of denying the taliban a role in governance.

No, we do exactly as we did in Viet Nam. Let Congress cease funding the military and then pull out all the troops unexpectedly, thereby creating even further chaos and disarray than we have now. We have no idea of how to fight any kind of war and haven't had since World War II. We have neither the intelligence or capability to do so as too many Americans would be horrified as to what actually was required. So lets bring the troops home, not only in Iraq and Afganistan but all the other places as well, cut out our foriegn aid and let the chips fall where they may. It could be no worse than what we are seeing now.

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As government expands, liberty contracts. Ronald Reagan

curtis lemay theory, but ask yourself, what we accomplish by slaughtering everyone?

Well we told the world on "such and such a date" we would send troops into war, as in Iraq, bomb and invade. (remember shock and awe?) And at that point, we knew there were going to be civilian and military casualties. Why not do the same thing as we exit? What is the difference?

We have a mostly indifferent American public and group of politicians. Unfortunately too few American care because they have no involverment or commitment to these wars (unlike WWII). If I were a soldier in Iraq or Afhganistan I would question what my presence means as well!

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Abrupt and needed "change" is hard for anyone to deal with. We have to deal with new paradigms in a new world, but I think things are gradually getting better!

I guess I was hoping we could improve on how we treat personnel and families after several more decades - my bad.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Bob, you and I will never ever agree on anything of importance so please cease asking me your stupid questions. You, to me, have little or no idea of how the real world works. Our ideas and ideals are so far apart that it is infathomable. And to think you were a commissioned officer, a leader of our troops. It takes all kinds, and yes I know your response will be it sure does but I am disappointed that we had such military leaders such as you and John Murtha.

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As government expands, liberty contracts. Ronald Reagan

What type of leader was he? This is an unfair statement to any veteran unless you served under them or have personal knowledge you wish to share.

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"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

my stupid questions? post some more about respect and fairness. as far as your real world comment, your reference point is good/evil, right/wrong, fair/unfair. our foreign affairs are conducted on the basis of money/power. the aforementioned ideas are for the general public to believe. these two stupid wars are a gift of gw's making to feed the m i complex and help the oil industry. i saw a young man, a veteran, in costco today with no hands, stubs below the elbow. he had no feet, just titanium extensions below the knees. tell me he was defending our freedom, and then close your eyes and count to three.

pull out now and get them to pay us back? if it were that easy....

what is with the left and surrendering when things get tough? do we really need a scar like vietnam? are you prepared to swallow the rep our nation will get after pulling out? are you willing to accept the fallen in vein? are you willing to accept the fact that terrorists worldwide will be emboldened by our retreat? are any of these something you consider or is just waving the white flag the easiest solution to comprehend?

your echoing what the opposition to the surge in iraq said and look what the surge accomplished. the military can win this war, but not with liberal politicians playing politics with their lives. you fight to win-period. and thats not just with bombs either. right now they are all sitting ducks waiting for the attorney and chief to make up his attorney mindset up.

If it were that easy. the world would crumble because we keep the peace around the globe with our military. most havent a clue on how many places we're stationed to keep the peace and provide aid.

is that a serious question, alpha? you cant be comparing the too....

I know how well schooled you are in military strategy but I still thought you might like to read this from one of your right wing web sites.

CNSNews.com - In Afghanistan, International Troops Outnumber Taliban 12-1

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"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

respectfully, you truly are lost.

right wing web site? have olby teach you a new line.

do you have a clue about afghan, i mean really... its not just defeating the taliban, but whats the use talking to you about this you could care less. your more interested in playing hateful liberal politics. i remember when i was young and liberal and couldnt think clearly. maybe someday youll see the light. until than we all have to hear your childish dribble. got to love how you just google something and post it. yea, your interested-please

The scar of Vietnam was the realization of our own stupidity for getting involved with that mess in the first place and sticking with it for so long. People with your view continually pick the scab.

i would actually agree with you that we shouldnt have entered that war. but, if you do than you fight to win. the intention was good, but politicians brought about defeat. politicians brought that scare onto this nation, not the military or their lack of competence

people like me pick the scab? why because i bring it up? its the left in this nation that compares every single solitary conflict to vietnam and uses it to smear the nation to the world. it was people like teddy that said iraq was bush's vietnam. do i need to keep going or do you finally get the point? get a grip would ya

The only point I get is that you can't get over our failure in Vietnam and you view every unnecessary conflict we mindlessly enter as some sort of do-over to make up for that failure. Maybe you should take a closer look at what's in the koolaid old Ollie North is feeding to you.

Check the bios of the staff at CNSN starting with Terry Jeffrey the Editor in Chief and then please enlighten me with your vast talk radio knowledge and first hand experience of military strategy and Afgan politics oh wise one. I just love your dumb know everything but refuse to back it up posts, they make my day.

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"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

You are so dated and do not currently have your facts correct.

Re read my post....high demand/low density in the combat support and a couple like medical in combat service support branches, ie medical are pulling longer than 12 month deployments and all by exception.

And nothing has changed for Korea. Still a 13 month tour with a 30 day R&R in the middle, if unaccompanied. 24 months if family goes with you! Where you in the Korean War or just a regular 13 month tour in Korea?

I will explain later where I get my facts. Just don't have any time to waste right now.

Maybe once well schooled, however I believe currently an Outdated military strategist (if ever a real one). One has to live in the current world or work in the current world of the military to stay up to date as a military strategist. You can't learn it by reading the newspapers, watching the tv, and surfing the internet.

My facts were on the ground and in the air in both theaters. As for today’s facts, my own Son is in Iraq ready to hit his third tour, please go ahead, and Help me with the facts.
I have the time.
Oh and I was not commenting on your above post it was scooters the one above it. The quote did not work for some reason. But I am still willing to take the time to hear (See) your facts.
Jack

PS: My point to scooter was simply where did he/she get it was only in THIS DAY AND AGE. It has been status quo in my lifetime. And for a little history since many of you have no idea, Men spent years (The entire WAR for some) overseas during the wars, WWII and WWI. So things have improved.

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God is Great, God is Good!

You still didn't answer whether you were a Korean War veteran or just had a 13 month tour in Korea. I understand that you were stationed in two theaters.

Sorry thought you were coming back with the facts? If that were the case you would know that Korea and Thailand were both support countries to Viet Nam. Also I served in two branches of the Armed forces, I will also further explain I am old but not that old to serve in the two conflicts. I served in Viet Nam. Spent time in Thailand Korea and the Philippines as well as Japan. Now hopefully you can help me with these facts?

And somewhere while doing this, what does my service to our country have to do with your facts?

Jack

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God is Great, God is Good!

Can I break up the self-righteous lovefest to have a discussion about the actual thread topic?

I think the fact that our military personnel's rate of suicide is greatly increasing is a matter of concern.

Yes, I know what historic and current deployment times are (it's my high school and college classmates and friends' husbands and dating pool and our younger siblings fighting these wars) and I think that they suck, are anti-family, and should be changed.......................it's called progress and is doable IMO.

We also need to step up on providing better mental health care for our troops.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

My original post in quotations below:

"The Army has strict rules on deployment timelines. If they past the normal 12 month deployment (some exceptions have been approved for 15 months) all of the top ranking officials have to get together for a (POW WOW and get approval for the longer deployments. Then there is the rule of the dwell time. It is to be the length of the deployment. If dwell time is broken another pow wow and another approval process. The main issue of these exceptions to policy are for the combat engineers, medical, military intelligence, and military pollice. The high demand/low density specialist. Not the infantryman. There are plenty of them.

The high demand/low density guys are hard to find, they have to have exceptional apptitudes and lots of civilian and military training. Look how long it takes a nurse to get trained. A linguist is another story especially in the Arabic and Farsi languages, then the dialects of each. And then there is the fact that if one of these highly skilled individuals happens to admit being gay they are dismissed after the military has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to get them to the levels of expertise needed. They get kicked out and come back as contractors and the governments pays them sometimes 2 to 3 to 5 times what they were making as soldiers.

So it is not as easy as raise the force structure levels and our problems are solved.

I know of no one getting a bonus for staying deployed. Army units deploy as units and come home as units. Individuals deploy as augmentees normaly to a staff level position for 6 to 12 months and normally in the less dangerous locaitons. Soldiers are getting bonuses for enlisted in specific specialties and for reenlisting.

Contractors can stay for as long as they like and up to about 90K is tax free per year. May be a little higher or lower. The soldiers pay is tax free also, the officer's is to the level of the highest enlisted soldiers pay. The civil servant that volunteers to be deployed receives no extra benefits, ie tax break.

Air Force, Navy, and Marine deployments are six months. Not 12 to 15 or so. Therefore you hear of more problems in the Army.

And yes, we should pull out now and get those countries to pay us back the billions of dollars that we have wasted over there and put it into protecting ourselves on our own homeland......something called HOMELAND DEFENSE...HOMELAND PROTECTION.....HOMELAND SECURITY."


Jack, what do you not believe is a fact, Other than my last paragraph above, which is a personal comment versus a fact?

You seem to have so much time on your hands and believe you are correct about everything because you served during the Vietnam era, please re read and tell me what is not a fact. I don't just spout to spout unless it is annotated as a personal view ie my last paragraph of my original post.

I did not have to come back with facts. My comments were facts in my original post, like I said except last para!

Thanks Scooter,

Sorry for my venting.

Jack just doesn't read through or maybe he doesn't comprehend what he reads. You did understand and I agree with everything you said in your post.

We can add a segment to your post and that is divorce levels. It is also at a extraordinary high level (and Jack I do not have the exact numbers). Just know that studies are showing it.

I feel for the young families of our soldiers and the extended families, the friends of the families, and all that are touched by our soldiers. And with soldiers, I include all ranks of all that serve.

Thanks again Scooter.

Iris, your the one who stated this..."I will explain later where I get my facts. Just don't have any time to waste right now. "

I do not think I disputed anything you said. I was just waiting to see where you "GET" your facts. I just explained where I get mine.

I also agree, this thread is not about me. So what is the answer? One that is obtainable. Not a wish list. Just saying...

Jack

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God is Great, God is Good!

Agreed!

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God is Great, God is Good!

I fully agree with your statement. Now where can we find the support to move forward on these problems other from "Venting" here in a forum?

Jack

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God is Great, God is Good!

[quote=Beanstalk;623463]Iris, your the one who stated this..."I will explain later where I get my facts. Just don't have any time to waste right now. "

You must be a really unhappy or angry person having to highlight. I just needed to go shuck some oysters for dinner. Family, food, and good will are worth more of my time.

I must start that I can't be too specific, state any oplans, any future force structure initiatives, or so because I have signed nondisclosure agreements. Am now retired (recently within 12 months) will not pretend that I am up to date, only what I have read in unclassified publications that I currently recieve. Therefore go back and read my original post where I believe I am pretty right on.

As for my background. I have been around wearing the green uniform since 1974 when it wasn't really fun (and no I did not go to VN) to '82 with Grenada, '89 Panama, '90/91 Desert Shield/Storm, Bosnia/Kosovo 95/96/97/97/98/99/00/01 etc. to 2001/02........ OEF, etc, and 03/04 etc for OIF. I hung it up last year.

I worked with deployments, redeployments, etc, dwell times, breaking dwell times and the exception to policies associatied with them. I worked with the HQDA teams and the POW WOWs, I worked with recruiting programs trying to get more of the high demand/ low density/highly skilled soldiers into to the Army. Someof which I knew that were to be recruited, enlisted, promised things, and knew were going to die. I DO NOT FEEL GOOD ABOUT THIS.......AND YES I AM ANGRY about this portion.

I worked with the USAR and the ARNG. I worked with the contacting aspect of the military, the force structure aspect.

I am now completely reitred. Loving living in SOWAL where I have been a partime resident for 15 years, a full time resident for about 1 year, and wanting to enjoy it.

I am not a democrat, used to be a republican, and can't label myself today. I will not blame Obama nor Bush for our current economic problems. There were a lot of greedy people invovled with this one and most of us saw it coming 5 to 6 years ago. But that is another story.

I just want to enjoy good ole SOWAL life. Eat fresh food, protect a wonderful area. Help those down here that might need an ear. And give my best opinion from what I just experience for over 30 years.

And I do love my government health care. It is excellent as your sons . Don't know if you are retired from the government and have the same opportunities, but hope you do. I talk with all of my reitree friends and we hope that what we pay (I pay about $100 a month for primo care others pay about $250 per year and $5 co pays) that we can offer other people that need health care something reasonable. Maybe $250 per month. I have friends that are self employeed that pay $500 to $1000 per month per family. And don't receive good care.

Take that one on Jack.

Sorry Scooter. Had to rant about something else. Jack got me started. I do agree with you most of all.

Our poor soldiers and their families.

PS. For all of you comma mammas, I am not going through and correcting all of my typos and grammatical errors! So I will not respond to your rants! I love all of you. Just don't have the patience!

I was venting and not looking at posts while I vented. You now have my background and realize I am very frustrated with the whole political system. There is no way for us to correct the current military problems. They are fact exactly like VN. We said it prior to the first deployment of drop of the b. We all knew. Wish we weren't correct. GEN S (can''t spell his name or say it/head of the VA now) was correct. Along with a vast majority of generals that got fired for not backing Rumsfelt. My favorite was Johnny Riggs, who I had the honor of escourting a few times.

There is an excellent opinion piece by Fraser Sherman in todays NWF Daily News directed at people just like you, please read it. I would provide the link (knowing how lazy you are at researching an opposing view) but it wasn't on the web at this posting.

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"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

I have no idea how bonuses work in 2009, but if this were the late 60's or early 70's this is a true statement. The men in my unit in VN who re-enlisted with a bonus did so in country in order to have the entire bonus free from taxes. The bonus was tied to their occupational specialty, not their deployment.

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"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

[quote=Iris;623478]
Good to see you are enjoying life and only wishing you well. I fail to see where I questioned anything that you mentioned above, I only asked for your facts that you were too busy at the time to share. You are retired military? You seem to have some pent up anger about the system. That’s another thread; I will say I could never compare the theaters that you say you were in to anything I experienced first hand myself. I find it hard for some to understand the Viet Nam War since the history in my opinion has been twisted and I even find myself questioning what I really seen and heard for myself when I see what some proclaim as fact about something they never lived. I ask for facts so I can filter thru the BS and the truth. Much of what I read and see on the news about the current War and I did say War, and comparing it to Viet Nam is just plain and simply Bull. I have served our Country and have no regrets for anything I or the ones under me had done under the Flag; Yes I did say Flag of this Great Nation.
The problem in today’s world and I am sure adds to the pressure of our young men and women in uniform is the instant media and communications that are available today. Instant is not good. When a Country is at War and has been attacked within the need for controlling the information flow becomes an important tool for protecting our Country and our service personnel. Having open flow of information puts the individuals at risk of stress related problems including the current thread topic. These young people serving our Country are exposed to all the media flush and public opinion that could and would have them filtering another level of thought process that could effect the way they carry out their job and following the orders of their commanders.
As an experienced Commander I find this liberal self-righteous pandering of socialistic life breaking down this Country.
I will not be as vain as some to list my accomplishments in my lifetime. I have pride in my Country and Pride in my career, I question the ones who served in the military honorably to defecate on the Government and the Military they served and as one says "Enjoys the BENIFITS" . Glad the oysters were there for you to eat last night, My son had a Stir Fry MRE for supper. He did take time out to defend his fellow comrades. Good luck Iris, Oh and let me pass this on, My Son who is in Iraq has told me and our family and friends he is Proud to be an American. He is Proud to be a part of a Country that is feeding and protecting innocent people including the children and helping them to become educated so they can build a better life for themselves.

I am done.. Today I have the FREEDOM to go to work and enjoy my life here in a Country that so many have given to allow me that Freedom.

Jack

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God is Great, God is Good!

you served, you're proud, you are free. every war you, your son, or andy a. were in was a just and righteous cause. anything else?

Well said. That was great.

I can honestly say that over the many years I spent in the Military I was at the right place at the right time. It has not been a peaceful Army but I got to live a very enchanted peaceful life. When I commanded units, we were not in any conflict. Then I was either in a senior service school or serving as a staff weannie. And it was the staff weannie jobs that were the hardest. Being in the Pentagon and seeing the wounded being toured through was extremely disheartening.

I can say I retired from the Army and went back as a civil servant (because I didn't know how to do anything else!) to another staff weannie positions. I worked for GEN Colin Powell at FORSCOM and as a civilian GEN Hondo Campbell. Both great guys. You could listen to each of them speak forever. They didn't have attitudes. They cared for the troops. It was all great. But when you start to care it gets harder and harder. And I am happy to be alive and well. I care for the military families and I care for our nation. I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal which a lot of military can't stand.

Keep up the good comments and work.

Iris thank you for your refreshing and EXPERIENCED point of veiw--I have learned a lot!

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Abrupt and needed "change" is hard for anyone to deal with. We have to deal with new paradigms in a new world, but I think things are gradually getting better!

All the more reason to be concerned about the issue:

Is Fort Hood a Harbinger? Nidal Malik Hasan May Be a Symptom of a Military on the Brink. - The Human Condition Blog - Newsweek.com

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

This really struck me: "Suicidal behavior is bad," Brig. Gen. Stephen Townsend said at the time. In black shorts, a T shirt, and running shoes, he climbed atop a podium in a field and addressed his troops. "It's bad for soldiers, it's bad for families, bad for your units, bad for this division and our Army and our country, and it's got to stop now."

Seriously, does he really think telling a suicidal person to straighten out and fly right is going to have much effect? I mean we're dealing with people who have no fear whatsoever of the consequences of their actions. I don't think rules and laws and discipline can do much to deter them.

Very good point. Timothy McVeigh was an ex-military "fundamentalist", who considered what he did to be "patriotic". What he did was kill innocent children...

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...

Wow, just wow. I never, ever thought I would see veterans on this site criticizing other veterans and making assumptions about how successful they were or what they did while in the service or their knowledge of the military or their capability or their viewpoints. A new low! Just in time for Veteran's Day, too.

Please, just have some respect, people.

Very sincerely,

Former military wife

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Proud to practice indoctrination
at least when it comes to the GATOR NATION

lots of words. tons of pride. very little wisdom.

Honestly, there is no way a man would do what some have done here on this thread if they were TRUE VETERANS! A brother that has fought and seen death and mayhem would never attack another that has seen the same. I almost puked my guts out after reading some of theses post. I would say some are not worthy of what the Real Vets have done, but that would cheapen their sacrifices and I wont.

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God is Great, God is Good!