mtlinscomb

RealClearPolitics - Video - White House Spokesman Uses Phrase "War On Terror"

Um Robert, can I see you in my office immediately?!!

kkddbb

if this administration spent as much time actually fighting this war than they do naming it, perhaps robert gates wouldnt have just said the current afghan situation is "doom and gloom". as if the enemy cares what we call them......

Geo

My questions come neither from a left nor right ideology. They come from the perspective of a confused citizen critical of clusterf*cks...

So here they are-

What does "more time fighting this war" mean?
How does the US "win" this war? What does victory look like?

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sunspotbaby

oops.

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Don't confuse having less with being less, having more with being more, or what you have with who you are. Noah benShea

Bob

i'm all for everything

kkddbb

good questions....

if the pres was the communicator we were told he was, why is it that we never hear anything in regards to this war? the military is fighting this conflict while the admin is pulling the rug from underneath our intel's feet and remaining silent in public unless asked and even than its response is limited. the pres must lead and that requires him to come to camera and tell the american people where we are and the obstacles that stand in the way. and he should speak directly to the enemy which is something nor bush or obama have not done enough of. bush however, was much better when it came to exposing the enemy to the world. obama is afraid to call a spade a spade and thinks that somehow thatll stop a brainwashed enemy from killing innocents.

however, i will say im impressed that the admin is stepping up the drone program. but, the liberal media is silent because it goes against everything they smeared bush for.

not sure what winning will look like. how can we predict the win of anything in life? but, we wont know unless we win. and being afraid to label something for what it is isnt a winning stragedy and history shows us this.

mtlinscomb

How does one keep their popularity and continue fighting simultaneously when the lunatic fringe of the party that loved him so dearly was invested in defeat 6 months ago?

Geo

Guys, you mostly dodged my nonpartisan questions and instead answered with a left vs. right, Bush vs. Obama answer.

HINT: You get points for answering with "I don't know" (kkddbb kind of went there)because that is pretty much my point- our elected officials (D and R) have us fighting a "war" with no clearly defined or articulated (kkddbb also went there) objectives.

I am so puzzled by the American attitude and rhetoric of-
"We are in a war and we need to defeat our enemy to protect our way of life".

It's like magic words for people in this country- Politicians only need to say something strategically ambiguous that sounds patriotic. Then they get to up the Army of One advertising budget...

It shouldn't be so easy to put our troops in harm's way and to spend billions of dollars.

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Geo

Please define defeat.
That's only fair since I asked for someone to define victory.

Seems we should understand these polar opposites so that we can measure ourselves.

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Lake View Too

I agree that there is simply no way to win this war. That seems to be a scenario that has played out in every conflict we have been in since WWII. (we did whip Grenada's ass! what a sad joke) It's been my feeling for a long time that our military/industrial complex makes sure we are committed to some armed conflict somewhere at all times. I mean, how else are Halliburton, Blackwater, and the gang ever going to make their filthy loot. Am I cynical or what...

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...

TooFarTampa

George Will says it's time to go home.

George Will calls for pull-out - Mike Allen - POLITICO.com

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Proud to practice indoctrination
at least when it comes to the GATOR NATION

idlewind

Geo:

I really don't know how to define victory in Iraq. I would define victory in Afganistan as destroying the taliban and al queda. The one thing I do know is that once we invest our reputation and treasure in a conflict we have no choice but to win. As a great man once said" there is no substitute for victory."

The lesson we will learn once again is not to go into wars without clear objectives. We learned that in Vietnam, but Bush forgot.

30ashopper

Over the last eight years we've fought militarily against multiple armies, in two different countries. In Afghanistan the original goal was to rid the country of Taliban rule, return control to the pro-western forces of the Northern Alliance, and track down Bin Laden. We accomplished the first two goals initially rather swiftly and obviously missed on the third. The overall goal was to get the people responsible for 9/11 and make sure they couldn’t use the country as a base of operations and source of funding – we are still working toward this general goal.

In Iraq we fought two different wars, and won both - we initially fought the Bath military, which we scuttled in short order. (If I remember correctly the media was enthralled over the fact that Hussein supposedly had the world’s 4th largest military?) After our initial victory, the country was then invaded via surrounding countries by a different army, Al Qaeda. We fought that long and costly war (March 03 - Jan 09, over 5000 souls lost) for a very long time, and won it after the invading army was killed, gave up, or retreated.

We are now back in Afghanistan fighting the retreating, defeated army that was our second foe in Iraq, and the remnants of the Taliban. Defining victory is tougher than Iraq- Afghanistan has few resources and will likely remain a tumultuous state long after we leave. (which may not happen, the country is a useful base of operations we can control). But if we can beat down the current opposing forces that are resurgent and maintain a presence there for an extended period of time so that a stable, pro-western government can completely form, I’d say victory can be declared. Catching Bin Laden wouldn’t hurt either, I wonder how Obama is doing on that?

I worry most about Obama’s resolve in this situation. I've not been impressed with his ability to make good military decisions. Time will tell I guess.

30ashopper

Wikipedia actually has a rather good article on the war in Afghanistan, if anyone is curious -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_...2%80%93present)

Geo

Shopper,

So here is what you have defined as our objectives:

- Rid the country of Taliban rule
- Return control to the Northern Alliance
- Track down Bin Laden and capture/kill those responsible for 9-11
- Ensure Taliban/Al Q can’t use Afghanistan as a base of operations/source of funding

Some follow up questions-

Do you believe these are the objectives our decision makers are looking to meet now?

How do you believe we are doing toward meeting each of them (now)?

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Thx for playing.

G

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30ashopper

I honestly have absolutly no idea what the current administration is thinking on the issue. Do you?

I think we are currently suffering from set backs because our forces have remained largly static while the enemy has increased its numbers. That's why I say time will tell. I do not accept the idea that Afghanistan will be another Vietnam if the war is managed correctly. We can kick anybody's a** we want to if we're committed to the task.

mtlinscomb

I personally think there was a fringe of the party backed up by the codepink, moveon.org's etc. that did not want us to succeed in Iraq becuase they hated Bush so much. This blame America first crowd sucks the life out of the Dem party...just my opinion. I also believe that these are the same poeple that are upset with Obama now because he hasn't lived up to the extreme liberal agenda they hoped for.

Senator Joe Lieberman: News Release


Lieberman Delivers Major Address on "The Politics of National Security"

WASHINGTON, D.C. – On Thursday, November 8, 2007, Senator Joe Lieberman (ID-CT) addressed a Center for Politics and Foreign Relations/Financial Times breakfast at The Johns Hopkins University Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies. The subject of Senator Lieberman’s talk was “The Politics of National Security,” in which he spoke about the future of the Democratic Party and its response to the threat of Iran.

In the address, Senator Lieberman stated, “Since retaking Congress in November 2006, the top foreign policy priority of the Democratic Party has not been to expand the size of our military for the war on terror or to strengthen our democracy promotion efforts in the Middle East or to prevail in Afghanistan. It has been to pull our troops out of Iraq, to abandon the democratically-elected government there, and to hand a defeat to President Bush.

“Iraq has become the singular litmus test for Democratic candidates. No Democratic presidential primary candidate today speaks of America’s moral or strategic responsibility to stand with the Iraqi people against the totalitarian forces of radical Islam, or of the consequences of handing a victory in Iraq to al Qaeda and Iran. And if they did, their campaign would be as unsuccessful as mine was in 2006. Even as evidence has mounted that General Petraeus’ new counterinsurgency strategy is succeeding, Democrats have remained emotionally invested in a narrative of defeat and retreat in Iraq, reluctant to acknowledge the progress we are now achieving, or even that that progress has enabled us to begin drawing down our troops there.”

Senator Lieberman also indicated, “…there is something profoundly wrong—something that should trouble all of us—when we have elected Democratic officials who seem more worried about how the Bush administration might respond to Iran’s murder of our troops, than about the fact that Iran is murdering our troops.

There is likewise something profoundly wrong when we see candidates who are willing to pander to this politically paranoid, hyper-partisan sentiment in the Democratic base—even if it sends a message of weakness and division to the Iranian regime.”

Below is the full text of his remarks, as prepared for delivery:

“Thank you so much, Bob, for that kind introduction. It is a pleasure to be here this morning at the Paul Nitze School of Advanced International Studies.

SAIS bears the name of a great American statesman and strategist. Paul Nitze served in six presidential administrations, from the outbreak of World War II through the twilight of the Cold War. As the principal author of NSC-68, he quite literally wrote the road map that guided America to victory in our long struggle against the Soviet Union.

Nitze is a figure of particular resonance for me, and his career provides an ideal starting place for the subject of my talk today—the politics of national security.

As many of you know, Paul Nitze was a Democrat, but he worked for Republican presidents as well as Democratic ones. He did so because he understood that, whatever domestic political differences divide us, they must never blind us to the far more profound national security challenges we face together from abroad.

Throughout his long career, Nitze put country before party, policy before politics. Although he was a Democrat, he did not look to the Democratic Party to tell him how or what to think about foreign policy.

The foreign policy convictions that animated Nitze, it so happened, were also the convictions that animated the Democratic Party from the 1940s through the early 1960s. Confronted by the totalitarian threats first of fascism and then of communism, Democrats under Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman and John F. Kennedy forged a foreign policy that was simultaneously principled, internationalist, and tough-minded.

This was the Democratic Party I grew up in—a party that was unafraid to make moral judgments about the world beyond our borders, to draw a clear line between what Nitze in NSC-68 called “the free world” of the West and the “slave society” behind the Iron Curtain. It was a party that grasped the inextricable link between the survival of freedom abroad and the survival of freedom at home—that recognized, as Nitze wrote, that “the idea of freedom is the most contagious idea in the world.” And it was also a party that understood that a progressive society must be ready and willing to use its military power in defense of its progressive ideals, in order to ensure that those progressive ideals survived.

This was the worldview captured by President Kennedy, when he pledged in his inaugural address that the United States would “pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”

That Democratic foreign policy tradition—the tradition of Roosevelt, Truman, and Kennedy—collapsed just a few years later, in the trauma of Vietnam. And in its place, a very different worldview took root in the Democratic Party.

Reflexively skeptical about America’s authority to make moral judgments about the rest of the world, inclined to see the planet’s leading problems as more often the result of American involvement than American disengagement, and viscerally opposed to the use of military force, this rival worldview was in many respects the polar opposite of the self-confident and idealistic internationalism that had, just a few years earlier, animated the Democratic Party under President Kennedy.

Nitze was among those who courageously fought against this turn in the Democratic Party. He was a critic of the anti-war, isolationist candidacy of George McGovern in 1972 and later broke with Jimmy Carter over his arms control policy, which Nitze felt was weak and misguided. With Eugene Rostow, Nitze reestablished the Committee on the Present Danger, to keep alive the principled, internationalist, and muscular foreign policy tradition that had once lay at the heart of the Democratic Party.

Throughout this period, although Nitze remained a Democrat, he did not hesitate to challenge Democrats with whom he disagreed, or to work with Republicans with whom he agreed. One of the Republicans that Nitze came to support, in fact, was Ronald Reagan, himself a former Democrat, who welcomed Nitze to his foreign policy team after winning the presidency in 1980.

Reagan was the last president Nitze would serve, but in the proud legacy he has left, Nitze offers us important lessons for our own time about the politics of national security.

I arrived in Washington, D.C., as a first-term Senator in January 1989, just as Paul Nitze was departing government to return to his office here at SAIS. As I began to make foreign policy decisions in the Senate, I found myself drawn to the Democratic tradition of my youth—the morally self-confident, internationalist, and muscular tradition of Truman and Kennedy, whose inaugural address had inspired me to be a Democrat in the first place.

By the late 1980s, that tradition had been out of fashion in Democratic circles for twenty years. But then, Democrats had also been out of power for most of those twenty years—something that struck me and many others as more than coincidental. Simply put, the American people didn’t trust Democrats to keep them safe, and the McGovernite legacy was a big reason why.

By 1989, historic changes were taking place in the world that made the strong, self-confident foreign policy that linked Democrats like Truman and Kennedy to Republicans like Reagan look increasingly justified. Although too many Democrats had grown accustomed to criticizing Reagan’s approach to the Cold War as simplistic and dangerous, now the Soviet Union was imploding—economically and ideologically.

The collapse of communism emboldened those of us who felt that the McGovernite legacy had been a disastrous detour for the Democratic Party, and that it was time to reclaim our own lost tradition of strength abroad.

Then in 1991, America’s stunning victory in the first Gulf War presented anti-war Democrats with graphic proof of why their reflexive opposition to the use of military force was substantively wrong and probably politically wrong too.

It was not until the Clinton-Gore administration, however, that a tectonic shift really began inside the Democratic Party about foreign policy. In particular in the Balkans, as President Clinton and his advisers slowly came to recognize that American intervention, and only American intervention, could stop Slobodan Milosevic—Democratic attitudes about the use of military power began to change.

Ironically, just as Democrats in the White House were growing more comfortable with the idea of an interventionist foreign policy, Republicans in Congress were moving in the opposite direction. In the absence of the Soviet Union, Republicans in the 1990s too often defined their own foreign policy vision as instinctive opposition to whatever President Clinton was doing in the world.

It is worth remembering, however, that some Republicans rose above this partisan reflex. Senator John McCain and Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole courageously championed our intervention in the Balkans, without regard to domestic politics. But many others didn’t—and by the time of the 2000 presidential contest, it was the Democratic Party that was the more hawkish and internationalist, not the Republicans.

And in the 2000 campaign, it was Vice President Gore, who championed a values-based foreign policy, confident of America’s moral responsibilities in the world, and unafraid to use our military power. He promised $50 billion more in new defense spending than his Republican opponent—and, to the dismay of the party’s left, made sure that the Democratic Party’s platform that year endorsed a national missile defense.

Incidentally, he also chose a hawkish Democratic senator from Connecticut as his running mate.

Governor Bush, by contrast, campaigned for the presidency promising a “humble foreign policy,” criticizing the peacekeeping operations in Bosnia and Kosovo. He signaled his intention to appoint as his secretary of state a retired general, who had counseled against military intervention both in Iraq and in Bosnia. One of his top foreign policy advisers warned that “America’s armed forces are not a global police force”—a line that another prominent Republican noted was “closer to the spirit of George McGovern than Ronald Reagan.”

In the politics of national security, it seemed, Democrats and Republicans had traded places.

Certainly no one listening to George W. Bush in the fall of 2000 could have imagined that, scarcely four years later, this same man would stand on the west front of the Capitol building and pledge, in his second inaugural address, that “it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in the world.”

Indeed, as Yale historian John Lewis Gaddis has written, it is easy to imagine these words being spoken by Franklin Roosevelt or Harry Truman or John F. Kennedy or Bill Clinton. But it was George W. Bush, who—in the aftermath of September 11—responded to the attacks with a national security strategy not of isolationism or realpolitik—but by drawing on the same morally self-confident, internationalist, and muscular foreign policy tradition he had once scorned.

In particular, President Bush defined the nature of this new conflict in quintessentially liberal terms—as a struggle for freedom against tyranny. Like the Cold War, he described the war on terror as ultimately “between two fundamentally different visions of humanity.” On the one side of this struggle are the Islamist extremists who “promise paradise, but deliver a life of public beheadings and repression of women and suicide bombings.” And on the other side, “are huge numbers of moderate men and women…” in the Muslim world, who believe that “every life has dignity and value that no power on Earth can take away.”

That is why, to defeat radical Islam, President Bush has repeatedly argued that we must simultaneously fight—and fight hard—to uproot their networks, while offering our own, more powerful vision of the future, based on the universal values of freedom and justice and opportunity.

In this regard, the Bush administration’s post-9/11 ideological conversion confronted Democrats with an awkward choice. Should we welcome the President’s foreign policy flip-flop? Or should Democrats match it with a flip-flop of our own?

Between 2002 and 2006, there was a battle within the Democratic Party over just how to answer this question—a battle I was part of.

I felt strongly that Democrats should embrace the basic framework that the President articulated for the war on terror as our own—because it was our own. It was our legacy from Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, and Clinton.

We could rightly criticize the Bush administration when it failed to live up to its own rhetoric, or when it bungled the execution of its policies. But I felt that we should not minimize the seriousness of the threat from Islamist extremism, or the fundamental rightness of the muscular, internationalist, and morally self-confident response that President Bush had chosen in response to it.

But that was not the choice most Democrats made. Instead, they flip-flopped.

It did not happen all at once. In the weeks and months after September 11, Democrats and Republicans put aside our partisan divisions and stood united as Americans. As late as October 2002, a Democratic-controlled Senate voted by a wide bipartisan margin to authorize President Bush to use military force against Saddam Hussein.

As the Iraq war became bogged down in a long and costly insurgency, however, and as President Bush’s approval ratings slipped, Democrats moved in a very different direction—first in the presidential campaign of 2004, where antiwar forces played a decisive role in the Democratic primaries. As you may recall, they also prevailed in Connecticut’s Democratic U.S. Senate primary last year.

Since retaking Congress in November 2006, the top foreign policy priority of the Democratic Party has not been to expand the size of our military for the war on terror or to strengthen our democracy promotion efforts in the Middle East or to prevail in Afghanistan. It has been to pull our troops out of Iraq, to abandon the democratically-elected government there, and to hand a defeat to President Bush.

Iraq has become the singular litmus test for Democratic candidates. No Democratic presidential primary candidate today speaks of America’s moral or strategic responsibility to stand with the Iraqi people against the totalitarian forces of radical Islam, or of the consequences of handing a victory in Iraq to al Qaeda and Iran. And if they did, their campaign would be as unsuccessful as mine was in 2006. Even as evidence has mounted that General Petraeus’ new counterinsurgency strategy is succeeding, Democrats have remained emotionally invested in a narrative of defeat and retreat in Iraq, reluctant to acknowledge the progress we are now achieving, or even that that progress has enabled us to begin drawing down our troops there.

Part of the explanation for this, I think, comes back to ideology. For all of our efforts in the 1990s to rehabilitate a strong Democratic foreign policy tradition, anti-war sentiment remains the dominant galvanizing force among a significant segment of the Democratic base.

But another reason for the Democratic flip-flop on foreign policy over the past few years is less substantive. For many Democrats, the guiding conviction in foreign policy isn’t pacifism or isolationism—it is distrust and disdain of Republicans in general, and President Bush in particular.

In this regard, the Democratic foreign policy worldview has become defined by the same reflexive, blind opposition to the President that defined Republicans in the 1990s – even when it means repudiating the very principles and policies that Democrats as a party have stood for, at our best and strongest.

To illustrate my point, I want to talk about a controversy in the current Democratic presidential primaries, in which I have played an unintended part.

I offered an amendment earlier this fall, together with Senator Jon Kyl of Arizona, urging the Bush administration to designate Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps as a terrorist organization and impose economic sanctions on them.

The reason for our amendment was clear. In September, General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker testified before Congress about the proxy war that Iran—and in particular, the IRGC and its Quds Force subsidiary—has been waging against our troops in Iraq. Specifically, General Petraeus told us that the IRGC Quds Force has been training, funding, equipping, arming, and in some cases directing Shiite extremists who are responsible for the murder of hundreds of American soldiers.

This charge had been corroborated by other sources, including the most recent National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq, the independent assessment of the Iraqi Security Forces led by General Jim Jones, as well as the on-the-ground reports of our division commanders in Iraq.

It was also consistent with nearly three decades of experience with the IRGC, which has been implicated in a range of terrorist attacks against the United States and our allies—long before the invasion of Iraq.

In light of this evidence, Senator Kyl and I thought that calling for the designation of the IRGC as a terrorist organization was a no brainer. Rather than punishing Iranians indiscriminately, it would apply a set of targeted economic sanctions against the part of the Iranian regime that was responsible for the murder of our troops in Iraq.

One big reason Kyl and I thought that calling for the designation of the IRGC as a terrorist organization would be politically uncontroversial was because a bipartisan group of 68 senators, including several of the Democratic presidential candidates, had already signed onto a piece of legislation introduced earlier in the year that asked for the IRGC’s designation along exactly the same lines as our amendment. Whatever the differences or disagreements on foreign policy or even on Iran, I assumed that tougher, targeted economic sanctions against the IRGC were something that we could all agree on.

I was wrong.

What happened instead is a case study in the distrust and partisan polarization that now poisons our body politic on even the most sensitive issues of national security.

First, several left-wing blogs seized upon the Kyl-Lieberman amendment, offering wild conspiracy theories about how it could be used to authorize the use of military force against Iran.

These were absurd arguments. The text of our amendment contained nothing—nothing—that could be construed as a green light for an attack on Iran. To claim that it did was an act of delusion or deception.

On the contrary, by calling for tougher sanctions on Iran, the intention of our amendment was to offer an alternative to war.

Nonetheless, the conspiracy theories started to spread. Although the Senate passed our amendment, 76-22, several Democrats, including some of the Democratic presidential candidates, soon began attacking it—and Senator Clinton, who voted for the amendment. In fact, some of the very same Democrats who had cosponsored the legislation in the spring, urging the designation of the IRGC, began denouncing our amendment for doing the exact same thing.

The problem with the Kyl-Lieberman amendment of course had little to do with its substance, and a lot to do with politics.

continued on next thread...

mtlinscomb

continued...

I asked some of my Senate colleagues who voted against our amendment: “Do you believe the evidence the military has given us about the IRGC sponsoring these attacks on our troops?” Yes, they invariably said.

“Don’t you support tougher economic sanctions against Iran?” I asked. Again, yes—no question.

So what’s the problem, I asked.

“It’s simple,” they said. “We don’t trust Bush. He’ll use this resolution as an excuse for war against Iran.”

I understand that President Bush is a divisive figure. I recognize the distrust that many Americans feel toward his administration. I recognize the anger and outrage that exists out there about the war in Iraq.

But there is something profoundly wrong—something that should trouble all of us—when we have elected Democratic officials who seem more worried about how the Bush administration might respond to Iran’s murder of our troops, than about the fact that Iran is murdering our troops.

There is likewise something profoundly wrong when we see candidates who are willing to pander to this politically paranoid, hyper-partisan sentiment in the Democratic base—even if it sends a message of weakness and division to the Iranian regime.

For me, this episode reinforces how far the Democratic Party of 2007 has strayed from the Democratic Party of Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, and the Clinton-Gore administration.

That is why I call myself an Independent Democrat today. It is because my foreign policy convictions are the convictions that have traditionally animated the Democratic Party—but they exist in me today independent of the current Democratic Party, which has largely repudiated them.

I hope that Democrats will one day again rediscover and re-embrace these principles, which were at the heart of our party as recently as 2000. But regardless of when or if that happens, those convictions will continue to be mine. And I will continue to fight to advance them along with like-minded Democrats and like-minded Republicans.

Some of you in this room are students at the beginning of what will be long and distinguished careers in public policy and public service. Chances are, you already have formed some strong convictions about American foreign policy, and for that reason, identify more with one party than the other.

But as you consider your future, I ask you to reflect for a moment on the past, and the dramatic shifts that I have described in the foreign policy orthodoxy of Democrats and Republicans alike over the past sixty years.

These shifts are almost certain to continue to occur. Just as the foreign policy convictions of the Democratic Party of 2008 are very different from those of the Democratic Party of 2000, so too will the Democratic Party of 2016 and 2028 look very different from the Democratic Party of today.

I ask that as future practitioners of foreign policy, you do not become so wedded to a party that you are unwilling to diverge from it, when your convictions diverge from it. Let your views about national security determine your politics, rather than the other way around.

If you choose to identify as a Democrat or a Republican, in other words, I encourage each of you to be independent Democrats and independent Republicans.

It may mean that you belong to a smaller and, at times, lonelier caucus. You may even find yourself on the losing end of an election or two. But far more important, you will not lose your convictions about what you believe is best for the security of our great country—and that, as Paul Nitze understood, is what matters most.

Thank you so much.”

Geo

I see the problem being our "kick anybody's ass mentality". This works nicely with conventional wars. We can bomb countries into the stoneage. And as a result, uniformed militaries and governments surrender. But we aren't fighting a military and we aren't fighting a government. Those who we are fighting already live in the stoneage. So shock and awe doesn't work. Seems like "the enemy" is basically a whole bunch of fractured street gangs who share as a common thread that they hate us and don't want us there.

There are street gangs all over the US. There are thugs, purse snatchers and bank robbers. there probably always will be. Our military can't stop this- because these are a bunch of individuals living among the rest of us and acting on free will. So we instead have to be largely reactive- like the manhunt in our backyard.

I don't know what our current administration's objectives are. My concern is they don't either.

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Lake View Too

The central problem in fighting an "insurgency" is that they are woven into the population. We learned in Iraq that you have to win the hearts and minds of the population in order to have any chance of getting actionable intelligence. We have just started to try to do this in Iraq, and Afganistan will be so much harder considering it's size and lack of infastructure. In other words, we have to prove we can improve the lives and protect the lives of the majority of the Afghans. We simply cannot re-build a fairly primitive country from the ground up. We simply don't have the money or the manpower. We should get out now and try to bolster Pakistan in any way possible.

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...

30ashopper

I don't think this is the case. The Afghani people wanted us to remove the Taliban much more than the Iraqi people wanted us to remove the Bath party. Representatives of the moderate, pro-western Northern Alliance were in Washington in the 90's begging us to do something about them. When we finally invaded they were ecstatic about it. We fought alongside these folks (and still do). Our problems there today stem from Bush's mistake - we lost their confidence when we bailed on them and invaded Iraq. Which ironically, we did to the Iraqi's post the Gulf War. (Something I think we have finally made up for.) There's even some merit to the argument that we bailed on Afghanistan post the Soviet invasion. If we want these people to be our allies, we have to be willing to finish what we start. If we do that, if we stand by these folks and fight for their right for freedom, I think we can regain Afghanistan's trust long term.

I wonder what they think of Obama? I’ve not heard much about how the Afghani people are feeling in the news, I’ll have to do some digging for Afghani blogs on the internet.

Lake View Too

From my understanding, the only way we can win the people's trust is to take a region and keep our presence there. If we move on, the Taliban moves right back in. We have nowhere near the resources to do that. There is little sense of nation there. It's all tribal. We would have to win, and keep every tribe. It's a huge country. A huge problem.

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...

scooterbug44

Has anyone read "3 cups of tea?"

Very interesting book about an American guy who went there to climb K2 and ended up building 50+ schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It echoes the theme of "Charlie Wilson's War" that the way to secure our future is not just with military action, but by building schools and educating people...........................because that is certainly what the Saudis are doing - they literally fly in with suitcases full of money and either build schools/mosques or take the best students to Saudi Arabia to indoctrinate them.

Education is the best weapon we have against Islamic extremists.

Three Cups of Tea » Home

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Lake View Too

Absolutely noble thought, but we cannot get into nation building over there while our nation is fading fast. We have to face the fact that we have very little moral or financial standing in today's world.

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...

scooterbug44

If our "nation is fading", (which I do not believe is completely true), it is because we are not focusing on education, but on celebrity, money, sound bites, and violence.

The best way to improve the quality of life in an area is to educate their women.

The best way to win a war (and keep it won) is with brains instead of bombs.

Seriously, how many people whose children can now go to school and get an education because an American came to their village and built a school do you think hate America?

Do you really think our enemies are spending millions of dollars a year to build schools there because it's a "noble idea"? No, they are doing it because it is a way to secure alliances and indoctrinate people.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Lake View Too

I say that our nation is fading because we have almost quadruple the amount of debt of any other country on this planet. We spend $500 million dollars a day on our debt. How in the world are we going to build schools in Afghan? We still, to this day, do not have electricity running in Baghdad 50% of the time, much less the hospitals, clean water, and schools we promised them. We are simply pitiful at nation building because of the inherently corrupt nature of our beauracracy. I bet New Orleans could use a few new schools and hospitals, but who is going to build them, the US Government? I don't think so. Scooter, I'm with you all the way, but the last eight years have broke us, and we got to face up to it.

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...

Geo

Scooter isn't saying spend more money. She is saying instead of spending what we are now and plan to continue spending on war- redivert these efforts and funds to building schools and other infrastructure...

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Lake View Too

I do understand what Scooter was saying. If we had gone in to Afgan with school building along side our military actions, it would have worked wonders. But it's far too late. Literally trillions of dollars were diverted to "That Other War" and incredible amounts of it were wasted on half-assed rebuilding of that infastructure. To me, the single most obscene aspect of the Iraq war was the profiteering.

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...

30ashopper

U.S. to boost combat force in Afghanistan -- latimes.com

News like this doesn't make me hopeful. Obama being tentative about troup build-ups indicates he is not committed and may represent a step toward a true quagmire. Bush clearly didn't suffer from "public opinion fatigue" on this issue. I feel this is the primary reason he won the 2004 election.

The whole LATimes article is worth a read as it's quite informative.

scooterbug44

Not just the profiteering (which is apallingly bold) - we could build HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of schools with the amount of money we outright "lost" in transit!!!

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

mtlinscomb

An opinion I heard that made sense was this change back to war on terror might be intentional considering the evaluation taking place about an increase in troops. I think the guy simply slipped and said something he was instructed not to say. Any thoughts?

Lake View Too

George Will's column was printed in it's entirety in the NW Daily News. To sum it up we have nowhere near the resources to ever "clear, hold, and build" all of Afganistan. No amount of troops can do it. It went further to say that the Brookings Institute did a study that said that Afgan was the second most failed state besides Somalia. There is no real government or nation to rebuild. We just have to get out and pay more attention to Pakistan, which really matters.

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...

scooterbug44

How exactly do you ignore Afghanistan and focus on Pakistan? There is a lot of back and forth across the rather arbitrary border between the two.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Lake View Too

I'm not sure how to do this. I guess we simply have to give Pakistan whatever it needs to keep a viable government and military(grand scale bribery seems to be our favorite form of foreign aid) The whole situation is "seriously flawed". Makes you wonder what our state department was doing Pakistan for the last eight years, doesn't it?

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...

30ashopper

They were trying to keep it from becoming a failed state. Which was basically the same approach we've followed since the late 80's. Musharaff isn't the best guy in the world to support, but he does have control over their nuclear arsinal. If the extremists overthrough the government there, all hell breaks lose.

Lake View Too

Isn't Musharaff out of power now. I thought they elected somebody new. The real concern is a major portion of the Pakistani people do not regard the Taliban as necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps this is where we need to be building schools and doing humanitarian aid to get the polpulace to at least consider that maybe we are the good guys.

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My mind tends to wander... but fortunately, it's so weak, it doesn't get very far...