All I ever see here on the political forum anymore is name calling, half truths, outright lies, and petty squabbling. It used to be so much fun when we had good old fashioned honest debates. I miss that, don't you?

Some people need to grow up, get over themselves, check your facts, and learn how to engage in constructive discourse in a civil manner. Is that really so difficult?

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You must be the change you want to see in the world.
http://www.myspace.com/dannyburnssongs
Common sense is all too uncommon in our world today.

It's the same as it's ever been. In fact, most of the name calling is by those same few who always have engaged in that type of conversation.

There are still quite a few civil people here. On all sides of the issues. I don't know about the "outright lies."

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They’re all for diversity in everything but thought.
George Will

Analog man,
As we all know, the political waters right now are quite turbulent on both side of the political debate, and in my opinion, have been since the election. Unfortunately I don't see it dying down anytime soon. I think that some fail to grasp the size and scope of the subject Du Jour, whatever your opinion may be about healthcare.
How can we measure how "good" this debate really is? The goodness factor is relative to each individual.
SJ brought up a few "peripheral" news items that no one seems to want to discuss but they are huge in my opinion but the healthcare smoke is taking precendence. It seems to be a natural "news cycle".

As for the "outright lies" i haven't posted on here very much in comparison to some, but I am dilligent to personally "fact check" everything I post before I launch it into the discussion. Not claiming infallibility in any way, i purposely try to stay away from sources that can be attacked as fringe or unreliable. And I never use "fact-check" :)

Winnie and lerxst...now that's what I'm talking about. Thanks!

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You must be the change you want to see in the world.
http://www.myspace.com/dannyburnssongs
Common sense is all too uncommon in our world today.

By and large "good" debate doesn't exist here. The left cites their sources which are discounted by the right and vice versa. The right can't cite Fox News without being flamed by the left, and the left can't cite sources like MSNBC or CNN without getting flamed by the right. It's pretty sad, actually. The political forum is largely nothing more than he said she said on 90% of the threads. Every now and again there is thoughtful discussion but rarely.

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I think we all figure out rather quickly who we can have a discussion with and who we should ignore.................unfortunately the number of people whose goal is to interrupt and derail the debate is increasing.

Which is sad, because when we actually can have a discussion we all learn a lot.

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The enemy is ignorance.

sc, that's why I seldom get involved in political discussions any longer. No one convinces anyone about anything with accusations and insults. When I see these threads that are titled with inflammatory remarks, I just tend to stay out of the fray.

We all need to pay better attention to what the alleged "news media"...left AND right... tells us and learn to listen using common sense instead of political ideology as the filter through which we gain knowledge.

I know how difficult this may sound, but try. We all could be just a little better off as a country and world if more people did.

We all love our country. We simply don't see eye to eye on HOW we reach the common goals we all so much want to see happen.

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You must be the change you want to see in the world.
http://www.myspace.com/dannyburnssongs
Common sense is all too uncommon in our world today.

SB44, that's exactly why I used to post often on these forums. Whether you agree with someone or not, you still can learn about an opposing viewpoint. I think that is very valuable.

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You must be the change you want to see in the world.
http://www.myspace.com/dannyburnssongs
Common sense is all too uncommon in our world today.

Winnie, I was speaking about a very small minority of posters (of which you are not), who attempt to prove a fringe point by just making up poll numbers, etc. without posting references of any sort. These are the people who just want to expend energy trying to be right (I do not mean conservative) and spewing venom rather than trying to make a valid point and perpetuating a constructive debate...like this one we're having now.

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You must be the change you want to see in the world.
http://www.myspace.com/dannyburnssongs
Common sense is all too uncommon in our world today.

You are right about this! Not only does it lead me to research both sides of an issue more, it gives a 'personality' to the opposing perspective. I feel like most on SoWal are good-hearted people. I don't sense any bad intent in anybody's point of view.

Just a very few sound particularly angry at the world. I feel a great deal of sympathy for some who seem to have a 'glass half-empty' point of view on everything.

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They’re all for diversity in everything but thought.
George Will

I love it when a poster fills a whole page with links, and different fonts, different colored text, bolding, SHOUTING CAPS!!!!, and they may be 100% correct but it's mostly about issues for which I give not a rat's @ss. Then they get all mad when nobody responds and they assume it's because they're brilliant and nobody can find a hole in their argument. Well at least that's what olby tells me!!

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FOX NEWS-WE ALTER REALITY, YOU GET SOLD A PRECONCEIVED NARRATIVE

olbywan keithoby jedi journalist

I am neither a glass half empty nor a glass half full person. I'm a "the glass is twice as big as it necessarily needs to be" person.

I think the "half empty" people just need a little bit more love in their lives. don't you?

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You must be the change you want to see in the world.
http://www.myspace.com/dannyburnssongs
Common sense is all too uncommon in our world today.

I don't like resorting to this, but will someone please tell me how to ignore another member? I've been thinking about this for a few days now... I've come to the point where I either don't want to ever post/read anything on here beyond the fluff stuff, or I have to start ignoring certain members who only seem to want to inflame the conversation. I really enjoy the conversations on here that remain civil; I learn so much and consider viewpoints that I never had previously. I think this site is a great community resource, but I have no desire to get sucked into some of the ridiculous commentary, or fall for the unfounded, fear-based propaganda, it totally takes the focus away from where it should be. I also have no desire to converse with only those who share my views; I very much want to hear from all sides, I just want it to be civil and respectful. In my experience, that is the only way to break through to true understanding, compromise, and common good.

So, anyway, I can't figure out how to ignore someone, I've never done it before. Anyone want to help me out?

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"My life has been a huge adventure, always. I like them bold, I'm done with creepy." - Seagrovegirl

.
Can't answer your question but would suggest that you'll need to set the ignore button for the clones also..
I'm with you .... and will wait for those instructions.

.

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"Peace .... starts with the person who attempts to diffuse the tension and backs away from the inflammatory rhetoric."

here let me help you. i've had to use it myself, unfortunately.

rita and wcw. it's user cp, edit options, edit ignore list.

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The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein

I wasn't talking about you, of course.

I don't want to call anybody out by name. And yes, I agree that these types really need some love. One particular case is just mean on top of their negative outlook. I sigh, feel sorry for them, and try not to engage them in any way. I try to send happy vibes their way, but so far it isn't taking.

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They’re all for diversity in everything but thought.
George Will

I believe the vast majority of posters here are trying to exchange ideas and do not try to inflame or denigrate anyone. There are exceptions on both sides of the spectrum.

On the other hand, many posters, on both sides of the issues post items in an attempt to stimulate debate. This is not meant maliously, but sometimes comes across that way.

Some posters try and inject humor into otherwise serious subjects. I plead guilty on this one, but I promise I am harmless. Sometimes my attempts suceed, sometimes not. If I see I offend someone, I try and make it right. None of us are perfect.

I knew you weren't talking about me. I was just trying to illuminate my way of thinking.

Keep trying Winnie. Maybe some day it will sink in.

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You must be the change you want to see in the world.
http://www.myspace.com/dannyburnssongs
Common sense is all too uncommon in our world today.

Beat it into them Winnie if they will not freely accept your happy feelings.

One problem is that some only listen and read news media that supports their personal view. They have no desire to even attempt to see anything from the other side.

Politics as with all things in life is about compromise, and therefore rational discussion about politics involves compromise also.

You can not debate anything intelligently unless you are willing to listen to the other side.

Here is a very good article on debating politics.

Discussion of Politics
Kate grandpa’s is fond of repeating the mantra he and his fellow sailors repeated while serving aboard the USS Indiana during World War II. “Never discuss politics or religion.” And he always adds, “So what does that leave to talk about? Girls, of course.”

Gramp’s advice is certainly appropriate if you’re going to be trapped on a ship with the same guys for months on end. And it’s a rule of good etiquette for dinner parties and other occasions when polite decorum should prevail.

But otherwise, politics should be debated, vigorously and often. Men in every age debated politics- from the Grecian Assembly to the Roman Forum, from the salons of France to the mutual improvement societies of colonial America. Being able to reasonably discuss the political issues of the day was considered a vital and essential part of being a well-rounded, well-educated, man. Indeed, one of the express purposes of education during this time was to equip men to be able to hold their own in the political forum.


These days rousing, yet respectful political debate is practically non-existent. The new media, far from presenting balanced, in-depth coverage of the important, meaty issues of the day, spend their time constantly regurgitating manufactured scandals and fanning the flames of personality contests. Debates between men in person, and especially on the internet quickly devolve into indignant shouting matches, where personal insults are substituted for rational arguments.

That’s not to say that our manly forebearers were the paragons of respectful debating. They too would often let their passions get away from them and unleash oratorical hell on their opponent. For example, during his days as a young state assemblyman in New York, Teddy Roosevelt would frequently lose his cool during debates on the Assembly floor. He’d call his opponents “cold blooded, narrow-minded, prejudiced, obstinate, timid, old psalm singing Indianapolis politicians” or “oily-Gammon, churchgoing specimens,” or simply “classical ignoramuses.”

Young Roosevelt quickly became the laughing stock of the Assembly and of the state newspapers with his outbursts. After bitterly insulting a senior assemblyman, Roosevelt was rebuked severely, and tearfully apologized for his unbecoming behavior. He soon learned to control his temper and direct his passion towards more constructive debate as opposed to petty insults.

Unlike men from the past, today’s men are unapologetic about their undisciplined, discourteous political rants. Men need to learn how to bring back vigorous, yet civil political discourse. Here are a few suggestions on how we can.

Disagreement in politics does not a pinhead make.


When it comes to debating politics, men then often create the following faulty syllogism:

• I’m a very intelligent man and I believe X.
• This other guy believes Y.
• Therefore this other guy is a complete moron.

This is what essentially lies at the heart of nasty political discourse. And it’s surely a tempting conclusion to make. But take a step back. Does your “opponent” show other signs of being a feeble-minded moron? Did he graduate from college? Does he have a good job? Does he seem able to function as a normal adult? You know, dress himself, feed himself, and refrain from drooling? Probably so. He’s probably not an imbecile. He just feels differently than you do. He was raised in a home by parents with certain beliefs. He’s had life experiences that are divergent from yours. His faith or lack thereof has shaped him in ways that yours hasn’t. Now, once you have established that your friend is not a pinhead, you can begin to have a polite debate.

Try your darndest to see the other side

When you passionately believe in something, it can seem nearly impossible to even conceive how another person doesn’t see things the same way you do. But since we’ve established that having a divergent political belief does not a pinhead make, you should be duly curious about why your friend feels the way he does.

Dispense with the the how and why questions.

Questions like, “How could you possibly believe that?” and “Why can’t you see how wrong you are?” won’t get you anywhere. Instead, pose “what” questions. “What makes you feel that way?” “What has led you to come to that conclusion?” Be earnestly and sincerely interested in what the person has to say. Do not ask these questions as way to dig up material to pounce on and attack. Take the time to really understand their sides of the issues.

Consume media that presents news from both sides.

Why has political debate become so polarized and rancor-filled? Look no father then the current state of the media. Instead of modeling the art of healthy debate, news shows are political theater, filled with talking heads shouting over each other and licking their lips over the chance to cut someone down.

It’s also no secret that various media outlets give the news with their particular political slant. If all you consume is media from one particular source, a source that affirms and flatters your already preconceived beliefs, then you’re never going to be able to see the other side and will end up just another schmo contributing to the untimely death of respectful political debate.

Let’s face it: we all love to see our guy sticking it to the other guy. We love to see the commentators rip into the hypocrisy and inadequacies of the other party. It makes us feel good about ourselves and flatters our world view. But it’s dangerously narrow-minded. Men back in the day didn’t just read tracts and attend speeches of people with whom they agreed. They eagerly consumed what their opponents had to say as well. You must make an effort to read, listen, and watch news that may make your blood pressure soar, but will leave you better informed and ready to make fair assessments. If you’re a devoted Bill Maher fan, tune into Rush every now again. If you usually only read the National Review, spend some quality time with Mother Jones as well.

Concede a point where appropriate

Unless your friend really is an obtuse Neanderthal, he’ll probably say a few things that you actually agree with. A badger of a man will let these things pass by without a word, believing that to concede any point is to show weakness. An intelligent and secure man is able to say, “Yeah, that’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of that.” Even if you don’t agree with something, at least pepper your discourse with the occasional “I understand why you feel that way.” And “I can see that.”

Find common ground

Even if you and your friend are on opposite ends of the spectrum-he sleeps with O’Reilly’s Culture Warrior under his pillow and you have a signed photo of Keith Olbermann on your wall, there will always be a couple of things you can agree on. Even if its banal generalities like “Washington is broken,” you can agree on that and then civilly present your varying perspectives on how it should be fixed.

Don’t use inflammatory language

The man who is insecure with the simple, bare validity of his argument will be tempted to resort to inflammatory language and insults.” “McCain is a philandering, lying, corpse of a man!” “Obama is a pointy-headed, liberal, elitist and a terrorist to boot!” Such language only produces rancor and will quickly steer the debate into a pointless shouting match. Present you points in a calm, well-reasoned manner.

Stick to the facts

Only bring to the table those facts which have been thoroughly vetted as true. Information culled from emails forwarded to you by Aunt Gertie, articles from the National Enquirer, and stories from a pirated radio broadcast you listened to at 4 in the morning do not count. How you and your friend interpret the facts will of course vary, but you must at least be debating accurate information as opposed to rumors and slander that no one can really prove or argue against.

Where did you find that? Great article, someone should re-post it every day on here.

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"My life has been a huge adventure, always. I like them bold, I'm done with creepy." - Seagrovegirl

it is by Brett & Kate McKay from the Art of Manliness.

analogman...I feel your frustration. How do all these political poster people find this message board? I don't see most of them posting in other forums. Many of the oldtimers have said they see patterns and some political poster people have multiple screen names. Man, that takes a lot of effort that could be used for good!

IMO, suggesting that those posters read an etiquette piece, while nice, is frutiful. That post will be interesting to the choir and not to any of the posters that really need to change their tactics.

I will add that some of us have had an interesting and civil exchange on the Tort reform thread. Something good can happen around the P&CE.

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The mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open.

I'm noticing that things seem a bit quieter this morning.

Thanks Daddy-O. This is something good.

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Proud to practice indoctrination
at least when it comes to the GATOR NATION