6thGen

I think it's more about keeping Bush hatred alive and well, and trying to show he's Bush's antithesis to prop himself up to balance certain unpopular policies. I think there will be a ton of commissions, hearings, etc but no prosecutions. Anyway, the WSJ editorial page (I already know what Gibbs thinks about them) fires a pointed shot today.

Presidential Poison
His invitation to indict Bush officials will haunt Obama's Presidency

Mark down the date. Tuesday, April 21, 2009, is the moment that any chance of a new era of bipartisan respect in Washington ended. By inviting the prosecution of Bush officials for their antiterror legal advice, President Obama has injected a poison into our politics that he and the country will live to regret.

Policy disputes, often bitter, are the stuff of democratic politics. Elections settle those battles, at least for a time, and Mr. Obama's victory in November has given him the right to change policies on interrogations, Guantanamo, or anything on which he can muster enough support. But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power.

The rest here:
Presidential Poison - WSJ.com

hnooe

I was assuming this topic would come up, and I felt that the righties on the board were probably glad the issue had been avoided until now--thanks for starting the thread......obiously the "right" was able to "slant" the title of the thread...


Is Obama Administration injecting "Presidential Poison" into our political system (as you put it), or are they genuine seekers of Truth and transparency in government. Is there not One Truth, or are there Republican truths and Democratic truths? I don't think it is all about Bush bashing---history is doing that to Bush/Cheney almost everyday now. Besides, there is more to worry about today than those two clowns.

Did Woodward and Bernstein try to "inject poison" into the American system prior to the fall of Richard Nixon? I am sure many Republicans thought so at the time. War, THE War on Terror, or however you want to phrase it, does not give you, me, or anyone special rights and priveledges under our system of government. If I am wrong on this, someone please (and I know they will) tell me.

How about a "non-partisan" special procecutor? I admit I don't particularly want to hear from Bush and Cheney anymore (and Cheney cannot seem to stop going on public record for their "decisions."), but they are hopefully both not above the law. Having a "medical doctor" on site during a terrorist interogation does not necessarily make torture more lawful or acceptable--that is pretty insulting.

I do not think either side of the aisle should bury their heads on this....

traderx

I think the leftists will probably win on this issue. Leftists are a clever bunch and undoubtedly they field tested this idea thru polls. I saw and heard a leftist talking head defend prosecution this way: we have lost the respect of the world. Prosecuting the torturers will restore our standing in the world.

I await anxiously to see all the real world dividends that accrue to the US via a restored reputation.

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

full time

If anybody here thinks releasing the legal memos and opening the door to prosecutions is a good idea, then they don't have the first damn clue about government or government lawyers. If this had been ongoing 2 weeks ago, the Obama administration would have been authorizing Navy action against a backdrop of legal advice that amounted to nothing more than a dissertation of all the laws that could be violated by killing minors on the open seas (rather than an opinion on how it could be done legally which is what I'm certain the President received before this latest episode). We're facing a very dangerous situation in Pakistan, and we now have a President who is going to make very tough military and intelligence decisions in that part of the world with c/y/a legal advice and a threat that any "wrong" step could result in his prosecution. How does a smart guy like Obama get himself into this mess?

hnooe

"Win"? Is this a contest to see which side of the aisle can deceive the American people the easiest?

"Procecuting torcherers" or their commanders might restore our democracy, our values, and our standing in the World. One dividend might be that if we every do have a "real" war again ..maybe, just maybe, other nations (besides South Korea) may want to join us?"

traderx

As Wm F Buckley famously said: to Liberals, politics is a bloodsport. Yes, Dems consider it a contest.

As for our standing in the world, I refer you to my sig.

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

6thGen

hnoee, the title of the thread came from the title of the article. As for Woodward and Bernstein, they injected poison into the system, but they were only doing Felt's bidding to get back at Nixon for passing him over. Intelligence agencies at that time, and still today are used to collect damaging information on political enemies. Hoover made it famous.

traderx, you ought to know the American people are more fickle than that.

Interrogator

If waterboarding a terrorist could save the life of your wife, husband, daughter, son, mother, father etc. would you still be opposed to it?

This is what it boils down to folks.

Prosecuting torturers to restore our standing in the world? Give me a break. This is about Obama being pressured by the far left to get "revenge" on the Bush Administration - it will back fire.

traderx

I know. Some of my most hawkish friends have reversed positon and now oppose waterboarding so your point is valid. However, we have the NY Crimes and the Boston Glob pushing this issue to the max. Oh wait, they will both be out of business in the near future. Oh wait again, surely Obama will save both of these fine institutions. BTW, the NY Crimes is demanding that their union workers make big concessions to save the company. Hmm...rings a bell. Wonder what Frank Rich and Maureen Dowd think about this?

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

LuciferSam

Your saying it boils down to government embracing arbitrary lawlessness in the name of self-interest. Give me a break. Even the creepshow that ran our country from Jan '01 to Jan '09 could come up with something better than that.

__________________
Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one, and they're shallow and fuzzy.

RDeMars

Interrogator

I don't consider waterboarding to be torture and thus do not consider it to be arbitrary lawlessness. Waterboarding saved American lives.

Bob

shine your jackboots

Bob

where are your fetus pictures to support clinic bombings?

Bob

"i don't consider waterboarding torture". fine. sign your wife and kids up for some cia waterboarding and get back to us later.

RDeMars

By the way, those people that died on September 11, 2001 were real. They were mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters. That photo was taken during the age of enlightenment, before there was waterboarding. Those were the days when we allowed terrorists to run around under our noses while our fear of world opinion made us militarily impotent. Bin Laden could have easily been taken out in the preceding years. I could care less about this psychological distress that these bloodthirsty terrorists had to endure.

Before you criticize me, (and you will) please go back to the photo, and take two minutes to remember what you felt on that day. Put yourselves in the position that the buck stops with you, and it is your job to protect the innocent of this country. Consider what you would have felt if another such event happened on your watch because you failed to do what was necessary. Then consider how much sympathy you would have received from a fickle, spoiled American public.

Allow the American public see the kind of information that was obtained. Before you start asking for retribution, think about the motivation of those who made the decision to allow waterboarding. Stop making this political. It is time to move on.

Neither Democrats nor Republicans are responsible for the attacks that we have endured for years, and if we have to be self-loathing to the point of blaming ourselves, remember that these people have attacked innocent people all over the world. They will not stop and it is not within our control to change their mission, which is death to everyone who does not believe as they do.

I am truly thankful to all those who work diligently every day to keep us safe. None of us would want that responsibility. The first thing on President Bush's desk every morning was the previous day's terrorist report. I am sure that this is the first thing that President Obama sees as well.

LuciferSam

If in general saving American lives was the only standard for right and wrong then we really need to rewrite our constitution. Our country would be much more crime free if we simply allowed warrantless searches and incarceration without trial. Also, pretending the fallacy of torture's effectiveness is true, let's throw that into the mix. I mean why stop at terrorists. It's all about saving lives, right??

How effective are these methods really?? They had to waterboard someone 183 times over the course of a month. I don't see how that fits in with the ticking time bomb scenario. Let's face it, some people just like to torture for the thrill of it. Look, the days of using the horror of 9/11 as a conversation stopper are long gone. The horror of the Bush administration was equal or greater. True American justice shall now prevail. I'm glad our new President is starting to come around and starting to take the right course.

__________________
Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one, and they're shallow and fuzzy.

Bob

the poison will extend to anyone who perpetrated these unlawful acts. i believe culpability will ultimately rest with mr cheney, as he is more vociferous than agnew.

Interrogator

Why don't you tell your wife and kids that you are willing to let them die because you are not willing to let a terrorist be waterboarded.

poppy

How in the hell do you know, were you there?

__________________
"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

Interrogator

Let me get this straight - The "horror" of the Bush Administration was equal to or greater than the horror or 9/11? Tell that to the families of the 9/11 victims. You are proving my point that this is nothing but a "witch hunt" orchestrated by the far left.

Bob

i don't need to raise them in a state of cowardly fear in order to rationalize criminal behavior.

traderx

Good Lord Lucifer. You don't really mean that do you? You just said it for effect, right?

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

Lynnie

That picture is very disturbing. I am interested in y'all's comments, but is there a way I can 'hide' that?

__________________
Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

Bob

it goes with the element of our society that sees no wrong in never ending war, torture, and the slaughter of innocent civilians as long as they aren't american. where are those fetus pictures?

Lynnie

Stop it!

__________________
Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

Bob

your point is anger and fear combined with rationalizing the expediency of torture regardless of the rule of law. you have no point. your argument is empty and unethical. revenge is your point. revenge has put our country in 2 wars and killed tens of thousands of innocents.

traderx

There are those who believe that terrorists flying airplanes into NYC buildings and the Pentagon consitituted an act of war.

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

hnooe

Actually, as all of this information from the dark Bush/Cheney era eventually comes out, that quote makes more and more sense to me. (not that anyone who quotes Ann Coulter could be taken seriously either). Or, as Ann likes to say about everything when she, too, is cornered. "I was just kidding."

LuciferSam

Let's see, thousands of flag draped American coffin, tens of thousands of innocent civilians, tens of thousands of American soldiers severely wounded and disabled, and a huge escalation in the national debt. All this for a misguided and unecessary war in Iraq. Not to mention that the nation was presided by as I said earlier a veritable creepshow of characters hell bent on deceiving the American public at every turn. This is salt in the wounds of the families of 9/11 victims and the American puiblic. What else would you expect from an administration with a torture fetish?

__________________
Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one, and they're shallow and fuzzy.

Bob

torture is barbarism. torture is illegal. what else are selling off the wagon?

LuciferSam

Presidential Poison

__________________
Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one, and they're shallow and fuzzy.

traderx

hnooe, I find it intriguing that you would talk about being taking seriously.

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

Lynnie

From what I remember, SoDamn Insane violated 12 years of sanctions regarding the mass destruction capabilities he purportedly had. It is convenient that this invasion trailed the attacks of us by terrorists.....no doubt. But, what if Clinton had enforced with the UN, SoDamn Insane's violation of sanctions?

I know we can 'what if' everything to death. But, how long should the UN allow sanctions to be violated? Do we even need the UN any longer?

I was not for that war. But, I am somewhat smart enough to know that we can't just walk out. There has to be a concise and methodical plan in place. I want our troops out of there. However, I have a feeling that since it has been declared that we will be out by August 2010, the bad guys are already planning their invasions and attacks of Iraq.

And, if people can believe that the US Government engages in hurting its own people........I can believe that SoDamn Insame did in fact have the capability of producing mass destruction weaponry. There are two sides to this coin.

My $0.04~~~~~

__________________
Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

goodwitch58

I agree.

Kurt, can that be taken down, please? This is insulting to all the people who have been involved. Not to speak of the lack of sensitivity to the person whose photograph it is.

This is completely out of line IMO.

__________________

"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

traderx

I guess I should add that I cannot stand Ann Coulter. I did however find her quote that is now my sig interesting considering posts of late that Americans in Paris are ashamed to admit they are Americans or how some Americans marvel at everything European. When I am in Europa, I proclaim I am an American. If they want to take it out back, I am always ready.

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

traderx

Where is the pic? What is the post number?

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

Lynnie

#11

__________________
Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

traderx

Oh, I don't even recognize what that is.

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

full time

This idea that we're going to have some type of controlled "truth commission"as it relates to waterboarding and the legal opinions that authorized such, strikes me as hopelessly naive. The chilling effect on the bureaucracy is going to be profound. The President and his advisers better get use to making decisions that go against the advice of counsel (because the safe opinion for a lawyer to a client regarding whether a certain action is lawful always ends with the answer "no"). FWIW, I think the picture should remain as a reminder of the backdrop in which the legal opinions and decisions were rendered. How would you like that picture attached to an opinion request that speaks of another imminent attack? Yea, lets investigate the lawyers at the Justice Department ......... seriously.

traderx

Leftists seem to judge the merits of war by human and financial costs. By that measurement, we should have never responded to Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor.

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

Lynnie

I didn't either until I read a little more deeply. I am surmising it is one of the Towers. Regardless, where ever it is, if someone jumped, was pushed or was escaping a towering inferno with a 747 hanging out of the side of it, it's disturbing.

__________________
Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

30ashopper

A lot of people jumped. It was a choice between being burned alive or go out quickly. Personally, I'd have made the same choice.

30ashopper

scooterbug44

I do not want the people who waterboarded the prisoners prosecuted because I am squeamish about methods or because I want to make partisan political points, I want them prosecuted because it is WRONG, because we were specifically and unequivocably told it wasn't going on by our President, and because the whole sordid mess goes against everything our country stands for.

I don't want to argue semantics, I don't want inflammatory and disrespectful photos posted in place of an actual argument, and I don't want us to destroy everything we believe in because we think we can justify it as a means to an end.

There is always an exception, there is always a darn good reason, there is always a magnitude to justify our actions, but once you start down that road you can't turn around.

Government personnel doing something they know is wrong, that is being publicly denied by their leaders, and that they are justifying because it only applies to a certain group of "bad" people - not to good law abiding citizens .................... does that sound familiar?

If the goal is truly to keep us safe and protect America, do it the right way - not in the way that opens the door for us to throw out the rules of decency and any semblence of civilization.

__________________
"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

full time

Do you know that high ranking Democrats (including the Speaker) are acknowledging being told of the legal opinions about waterboarding but claiming as defense that they were prohibited from discussing it with staff or disclosing it to committee. Since waterboarding is so clearly wrong in your mind, is their lengthy silence on the issue permissible because "wrongdoers" allegedly swore them to secrecy? Put on your snow skis because the slope is steep, long and treacherous. In the meantime, I'd stay the hell out of New York and Los Angeles.

scooterbug44

I find it unacceptable to be blatantly lied to by anyone. I don't care if it was a Democrat or a Republican.

Really, waterboarding is all that stands between us and certain doom? Bull****!

That's why we spend trillions of dollars on intelligence operations, law enforcement, and 5 military branches!

__________________
"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

30ashopper

I don't get the outrage. Governments have in the past, currently do, and will continue to do things like water boarding and much much worse for national security purposes. We just live in a time now where it's more public because we have two political parties that put personal gain over national secrecy. There's nothing "wrong" with water boarding an enemy combatant if it provides valuable intel. Just like there's nothing wrong with surreptitiously killing a foreign spy who's stealing national secrets. This stuff happens. These investigations will not stop water boarding or any of the other ugly things intelligence services do while executing their jobs.

This witch hunt is oriented toward political gain - plain and simple. It's no different than the Clinton scandals, the parties are just switched.

Interrogator

Hot Air » Blog Archive » Pelosi on waterboarding: I knew nothing


"The more I think about the show trials Obama wants for “torturers,” the more I think they’re going to blow up in his face: Much of the GOP is up front about its support for enhanced interrogation but revelations about how Democrats backed it too will be genuinely shocking. By all means, more sunshine on their hypocrisy, phony sanctimony, and opportunism. Pelosi’s just the beginning."

hnooe

pretzel logic.