I think it's more about keeping Bush hatred alive and well, and trying to show he's Bush's antithesis to prop himself up to balance certain unpopular policies. I think there will be a ton of commissions, hearings, etc but no prosecutions. Anyway, the WSJ editorial page (I already know what Gibbs thinks about them) fires a pointed shot today.

Presidential Poison
His invitation to indict Bush officials will haunt Obama's Presidency

Mark down the date. Tuesday, April 21, 2009, is the moment that any chance of a new era of bipartisan respect in Washington ended. By inviting the prosecution of Bush officials for their antiterror legal advice, President Obama has injected a poison into our politics that he and the country will live to regret.

Policy disputes, often bitter, are the stuff of democratic politics. Elections settle those battles, at least for a time, and Mr. Obama's victory in November has given him the right to change policies on interrogations, Guantanamo, or anything on which he can muster enough support. But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power.

The rest here:
Presidential Poison - WSJ.com

I was assuming this topic would come up, and I felt that the righties on the board were probably glad the issue had been avoided until now--thanks for starting the thread......obiously the "right" was able to "slant" the title of the thread...


Is Obama Administration injecting "Presidential Poison" into our political system (as you put it), or are they genuine seekers of Truth and transparency in government. Is there not One Truth, or are there Republican truths and Democratic truths? I don't think it is all about Bush bashing---history is doing that to Bush/Cheney almost everyday now. Besides, there is more to worry about today than those two clowns.

Did Woodward and Bernstein try to "inject poison" into the American system prior to the fall of Richard Nixon? I am sure many Republicans thought so at the time. War, THE War on Terror, or however you want to phrase it, does not give you, me, or anyone special rights and priveledges under our system of government. If I am wrong on this, someone please (and I know they will) tell me.

How about a "non-partisan" special procecutor? I admit I don't particularly want to hear from Bush and Cheney anymore (and Cheney cannot seem to stop going on public record for their "decisions."), but they are hopefully both not above the law. Having a "medical doctor" on site during a terrorist interogation does not necessarily make torture more lawful or acceptable--that is pretty insulting.

I do not think either side of the aisle should bury their heads on this....

I think the leftists will probably win on this issue. Leftists are a clever bunch and undoubtedly they field tested this idea thru polls. I saw and heard a leftist talking head defend prosecution this way: we have lost the respect of the world. Prosecuting the torturers will restore our standing in the world.

I await anxiously to see all the real world dividends that accrue to the US via a restored reputation.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

If anybody here thinks releasing the legal memos and opening the door to prosecutions is a good idea, then they don't have the first damn clue about government or government lawyers. If this had been ongoing 2 weeks ago, the Obama administration would have been authorizing Navy action against a backdrop of legal advice that amounted to nothing more than a dissertation of all the laws that could be violated by killing minors on the open seas (rather than an opinion on how it could be done legally which is what I'm certain the President received before this latest episode). We're facing a very dangerous situation in Pakistan, and we now have a President who is going to make very tough military and intelligence decisions in that part of the world with c/y/a legal advice and a threat that any "wrong" step could result in his prosecution. How does a smart guy like Obama get himself into this mess?

"Win"? Is this a contest to see which side of the aisle can deceive the American people the easiest?

"Procecuting torcherers" or their commanders might restore our democracy, our values, and our standing in the World. One dividend might be that if we every do have a "real" war again ..maybe, just maybe, other nations (besides South Korea) may want to join us?"

As Wm F Buckley famously said: to Liberals, politics is a bloodsport. Yes, Dems consider it a contest.

As for our standing in the world, I refer you to my sig.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

hnoee, the title of the thread came from the title of the article. As for Woodward and Bernstein, they injected poison into the system, but they were only doing Felt's bidding to get back at Nixon for passing him over. Intelligence agencies at that time, and still today are used to collect damaging information on political enemies. Hoover made it famous.

traderx, you ought to know the American people are more fickle than that.

If waterboarding a terrorist could save the life of your wife, husband, daughter, son, mother, father etc. would you still be opposed to it?

This is what it boils down to folks.

Prosecuting torturers to restore our standing in the world? Give me a break. This is about Obama being pressured by the far left to get "revenge" on the Bush Administration - it will back fire.

I know. Some of my most hawkish friends have reversed positon and now oppose waterboarding so your point is valid. However, we have the NY Crimes and the Boston Glob pushing this issue to the max. Oh wait, they will both be out of business in the near future. Oh wait again, surely Obama will save both of these fine institutions. BTW, the NY Crimes is demanding that their union workers make big concessions to save the company. Hmm...rings a bell. Wonder what Frank Rich and Maureen Dowd think about this?

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

Your saying it boils down to government embracing arbitrary lawlessness in the name of self-interest. Give me a break. Even the creepshow that ran our country from Jan '01 to Jan '09 could come up with something better than that.

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I don't consider waterboarding to be torture and thus do not consider it to be arbitrary lawlessness. Waterboarding saved American lives.

shine your jackboots

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where are your fetus pictures to support clinic bombings?

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"i don't consider waterboarding torture". fine. sign your wife and kids up for some cia waterboarding and get back to us later.

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By the way, those people that died on September 11, 2001 were real. They were mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters. That photo was taken during the age of enlightenment, before there was waterboarding. Those were the days when we allowed terrorists to run around under our noses while our fear of world opinion made us militarily impotent. Bin Laden could have easily been taken out in the preceding years. I could care less about this psychological distress that these bloodthirsty terrorists had to endure.

Before you criticize me, (and you will) please go back to the photo, and take two minutes to remember what you felt on that day. Put yourselves in the position that the buck stops with you, and it is your job to protect the innocent of this country. Consider what you would have felt if another such event happened on your watch because you failed to do what was necessary. Then consider how much sympathy you would have received from a fickle, spoiled American public.

Allow the American public see the kind of information that was obtained. Before you start asking for retribution, think about the motivation of those who made the decision to allow waterboarding. Stop making this political. It is time to move on.

Neither Democrats nor Republicans are responsible for the attacks that we have endured for years, and if we have to be self-loathing to the point of blaming ourselves, remember that these people have attacked innocent people all over the world. They will not stop and it is not within our control to change their mission, which is death to everyone who does not believe as they do.

I am truly thankful to all those who work diligently every day to keep us safe. None of us would want that responsibility. The first thing on President Bush's desk every morning was the previous day's terrorist report. I am sure that this is the first thing that President Obama sees as well.

If in general saving American lives was the only standard for right and wrong then we really need to rewrite our constitution. Our country would be much more crime free if we simply allowed warrantless searches and incarceration without trial. Also, pretending the fallacy of torture's effectiveness is true, let's throw that into the mix. I mean why stop at terrorists. It's all about saving lives, right??

How effective are these methods really?? They had to waterboard someone 183 times over the course of a month. I don't see how that fits in with the ticking time bomb scenario. Let's face it, some people just like to torture for the thrill of it. Look, the days of using the horror of 9/11 as a conversation stopper are long gone. The horror of the Bush administration was equal or greater. True American justice shall now prevail. I'm glad our new President is starting to come around and starting to take the right course.

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the poison will extend to anyone who perpetrated these unlawful acts. i believe culpability will ultimately rest with mr cheney, as he is more vociferous than agnew.

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Why don't you tell your wife and kids that you are willing to let them die because you are not willing to let a terrorist be waterboarded.

How in the hell do you know, were you there?

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"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

Let me get this straight - The "horror" of the Bush Administration was equal to or greater than the horror or 9/11? Tell that to the families of the 9/11 victims. You are proving my point that this is nothing but a "witch hunt" orchestrated by the far left.

i don't need to raise them in a state of cowardly fear in order to rationalize criminal behavior.

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Good Lord Lucifer. You don't really mean that do you? You just said it for effect, right?

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

That picture is very disturbing. I am interested in y'all's comments, but is there a way I can 'hide' that?

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

it goes with the element of our society that sees no wrong in never ending war, torture, and the slaughter of innocent civilians as long as they aren't american. where are those fetus pictures?

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Stop it!

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

your point is anger and fear combined with rationalizing the expediency of torture regardless of the rule of law. you have no point. your argument is empty and unethical. revenge is your point. revenge has put our country in 2 wars and killed tens of thousands of innocents.

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There are those who believe that terrorists flying airplanes into NYC buildings and the Pentagon consitituted an act of war.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

Actually, as all of this information from the dark Bush/Cheney era eventually comes out, that quote makes more and more sense to me. (not that anyone who quotes Ann Coulter could be taken seriously either). Or, as Ann likes to say about everything when she, too, is cornered. "I was just kidding."

Let's see, thousands of flag draped American coffin, tens of thousands of innocent civilians, tens of thousands of American soldiers severely wounded and disabled, and a huge escalation in the national debt. All this for a misguided and unecessary war in Iraq. Not to mention that the nation was presided by as I said earlier a veritable creepshow of characters hell bent on deceiving the American public at every turn. This is salt in the wounds of the families of 9/11 victims and the American puiblic. What else would you expect from an administration with a torture fetish?

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torture is barbarism. torture is illegal. what else are selling off the wagon?

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Presidential Poison

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hnooe, I find it intriguing that you would talk about being taking seriously.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

From what I remember, SoDamn Insane violated 12 years of sanctions regarding the mass destruction capabilities he purportedly had. It is convenient that this invasion trailed the attacks of us by terrorists.....no doubt. But, what if Clinton had enforced with the UN, SoDamn Insane's violation of sanctions?

I know we can 'what if' everything to death. But, how long should the UN allow sanctions to be violated? Do we even need the UN any longer?

I was not for that war. But, I am somewhat smart enough to know that we can't just walk out. There has to be a concise and methodical plan in place. I want our troops out of there. However, I have a feeling that since it has been declared that we will be out by August 2010, the bad guys are already planning their invasions and attacks of Iraq.

And, if people can believe that the US Government engages in hurting its own people........I can believe that SoDamn Insame did in fact have the capability of producing mass destruction weaponry. There are two sides to this coin.

My $0.04~~~~~

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

I agree.

Kurt, can that be taken down, please? This is insulting to all the people who have been involved. Not to speak of the lack of sensitivity to the person whose photograph it is.

This is completely out of line IMO.

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"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

I guess I should add that I cannot stand Ann Coulter. I did however find her quote that is now my sig interesting considering posts of late that Americans in Paris are ashamed to admit they are Americans or how some Americans marvel at everything European. When I am in Europa, I proclaim I am an American. If they want to take it out back, I am always ready.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

Where is the pic? What is the post number?

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

#11

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

Oh, I don't even recognize what that is.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

This idea that we're going to have some type of controlled "truth commission"as it relates to waterboarding and the legal opinions that authorized such, strikes me as hopelessly naive. The chilling effect on the bureaucracy is going to be profound. The President and his advisers better get use to making decisions that go against the advice of counsel (because the safe opinion for a lawyer to a client regarding whether a certain action is lawful always ends with the answer "no"). FWIW, I think the picture should remain as a reminder of the backdrop in which the legal opinions and decisions were rendered. How would you like that picture attached to an opinion request that speaks of another imminent attack? Yea, lets investigate the lawyers at the Justice Department ......... seriously.

Leftists seem to judge the merits of war by human and financial costs. By that measurement, we should have never responded to Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

I didn't either until I read a little more deeply. I am surmising it is one of the Towers. Regardless, where ever it is, if someone jumped, was pushed or was escaping a towering inferno with a 747 hanging out of the side of it, it's disturbing.

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

A lot of people jumped. It was a choice between being burned alive or go out quickly. Personally, I'd have made the same choice.

I do not want the people who waterboarded the prisoners prosecuted because I am squeamish about methods or because I want to make partisan political points, I want them prosecuted because it is WRONG, because we were specifically and unequivocably told it wasn't going on by our President, and because the whole sordid mess goes against everything our country stands for.

I don't want to argue semantics, I don't want inflammatory and disrespectful photos posted in place of an actual argument, and I don't want us to destroy everything we believe in because we think we can justify it as a means to an end.

There is always an exception, there is always a darn good reason, there is always a magnitude to justify our actions, but once you start down that road you can't turn around.

Government personnel doing something they know is wrong, that is being publicly denied by their leaders, and that they are justifying because it only applies to a certain group of "bad" people - not to good law abiding citizens .................... does that sound familiar?

If the goal is truly to keep us safe and protect America, do it the right way - not in the way that opens the door for us to throw out the rules of decency and any semblence of civilization.

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The enemy is ignorance.

Do you know that high ranking Democrats (including the Speaker) are acknowledging being told of the legal opinions about waterboarding but claiming as defense that they were prohibited from discussing it with staff or disclosing it to committee. Since waterboarding is so clearly wrong in your mind, is their lengthy silence on the issue permissible because "wrongdoers" allegedly swore them to secrecy? Put on your snow skis because the slope is steep, long and treacherous. In the meantime, I'd stay the hell out of New York and Los Angeles.

I find it unacceptable to be blatantly lied to by anyone. I don't care if it was a Democrat or a Republican.

Really, waterboarding is all that stands between us and certain doom? Bull****!

That's why we spend trillions of dollars on intelligence operations, law enforcement, and 5 military branches!

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The enemy is ignorance.

I don't get the outrage. Governments have in the past, currently do, and will continue to do things like water boarding and much much worse for national security purposes. We just live in a time now where it's more public because we have two political parties that put personal gain over national secrecy. There's nothing "wrong" with water boarding an enemy combatant if it provides valuable intel. Just like there's nothing wrong with surreptitiously killing a foreign spy who's stealing national secrets. This stuff happens. These investigations will not stop water boarding or any of the other ugly things intelligence services do while executing their jobs.

This witch hunt is oriented toward political gain - plain and simple. It's no different than the Clinton scandals, the parties are just switched.

Hot Air » Blog Archive » Pelosi on waterboarding: I knew nothing


"The more I think about the show trials Obama wants for “torturers,” the more I think they’re going to blow up in his face: Much of the GOP is up front about its support for enhanced interrogation but revelations about how Democrats backed it too will be genuinely shocking. By all means, more sunshine on their hypocrisy, phony sanctimony, and opportunism. Pelosi’s just the beginning."

pretzel logic.

Hardly Hnooe. It's an IF THEN statement.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

comparing the near destruction of the pacific fleet by the japanese navy to the hijacking of civilian airplanes is laughable. it is precisely this lack of judgement that condones torture on others that we would decry as criminal were it perpetrated on ourselves. preemptive war is the creation of fools.

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Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded exactly 183 times per these reports--should they have gotten what they needed from him..say..after the100th TIME????
They got more from him before the 183 episodes of waterboarding, if you read all the information, which obviously you have not.
Yes.. "White Water" and "Waterboarding"--great analogy there--one with no substantiation--and the other with the facts beginning to flow much more "rapidly."

the rule of law is not about personalities...it is based on the merits

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So what's wrong with simply retaliating? Why do some people have to add this extra layer of punishment and revenge (torture). It seems to me that for some people this settles the whole 9/11 incident. WTF is with that. The wrong that occurred on 9/11 can never be righted. It was a terrible tragedy but we must as a nation get past it. The best we can do is be vigilant and take corrective military action where needed. I really don't think government sponsored sadism is the answer, although it does play well with all the 9/11 revenge freaks.

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You're right --good night. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

All I am doing is applying the rationale of Leftists concerning our response to 9/11 - costs are too great - to an earlier provacation.

But bob, you are correct. Most of those killed in Pearl Harbor were military personnel. Which is worse to you: killing of innocent civilians or military? Do you approve of our response to the Japanese attack?

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

There is nothing wrong with retaliation. But many Americans today - notably Leftists - do not believe we should have responded in any way because we were not attacked by a country.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

The Leftists will win because they put their sport - politics - above the good of the country.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

Rightly so in THIS particular case...and we place it where it needs to be--with the rest of the World. Its part of the great "changes" that are now in full swing and supported by a majority of the Ameican people.

Thought you went to sleep......

Yes, I personally will feel so much better when the French like us agaiin.

Over the next eight years, the Dems will tear this country apart. Look for it.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

the response to 9/11 was misdirected and revenge oriented. bin laden and al qaida were the perpetraitors. our response did not require two ground wars. killing of civilians/military are equally tragic.... my point is that our country is too strong to stoop so low and be so misguided. talk to the folks who lived in great britain through the blitz. the british had all their cities of size reduced to rubble. they survived and prevailed with our help and have moved on......we have only made our troubles worse with our response. the whole discourse about defending torture is very troubling in that i realize there's always going to be a segment of our society that looks at the rest of the world like a wwf opponent.

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The Seattle Times: Nation & World: Cheney confirms waterboarding Cheney confirms waterboarding

By Jonathan S. Landay

McClatchy Newspapers

PREV of NEXT



Vice President Dick Cheney made comments in a radio interview Tuesday.

WASHINGTON — Vice President Dick Cheney has confirmed U.S. interrogators subjected captured senior al-Qaida suspects to a controversial interrogation technique called waterboarding, which creates a sensation of drowning.

Cheney indicated the Bush administration doesn't regard waterboarding as torture and allows the CIA to use it. "It's a no-brainer for me," Cheney said.

Cheney's comments, in a White House interview Tuesday with a conservative radio talk-show host, appeared to reflect the Bush administration's view that the president has the constitutional power to do whatever he deems necessary to fight terrorism.

The U.S. Army, senior Republican lawmakers, human-rights experts and many experts on the laws of war, however, consider waterboarding cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment banned by U.S. law and by international treaties that prohibit torture.

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someone's going to have huge legal bills for their defense

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Are you an expert in coercion? How do you purport to know more than the people who did this? My guess is you're simply letting your emotions get tangled up in the subject.

Before Bush left office, I listened to some legal types who said that Bush could probably grant pardons after he left office. They also theorized that he could pardon himself. I hope the SC is rested by then.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

Well put.

And, 24/7 news! Which, is a downfall. I am going back to my bubble of groovy life and I'll see y'all on the next thread. This one bothers me a bit.

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

That is so far from the truth. I don't know where you get your info from. There are very few members of any party who were against retaliating against Afghanistan. You just like to try to justify your miisguided and prejudicial stereotypes of people. Get a clue.

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Lucifer, no need for personal attacks. Besides, it's against the rules.

Below is a Gallup graph which depicts the rising tide of public opinion against the Iraq war. The specific reference to the terrorists not being a country is based on conversations with liberal friends.

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Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them. But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter

Just a quick clarification, we didn't attack Afghanistan, we attacked the Taliban. The Northern Alliance and most of the populace of Afghanistan were behind us. They had been trying to get the U.S. involved for quite some time. We ignored their calls for involvement up until 9/11.

He says Afghanistan, you respond with Iraq. Maybe I need to get a clue.

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Change you can believe in! Arrr! People love free money. Buying votes though, it has its limits, especially when you have to borrow the payoff.

(This graph has some serious millage. )

Huh?? Iraq shouldn't have anything to do with this conversation. I don't know what you're trying to achieve with all this pretzel logic.

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True enough. I'm trying to make a distinction between Afghanistan and Iraq which had less support, and in my opinion, rightfully so.

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Support in term of the American public, or support in term of the citizens of the country we deposed the leaders of? We've been in countless wars where the American public was at first against then for, or at first for then against. The American public is fickle, thankfully our history is riddled with leaders who weren't.

Why are leftists so against removing tyrants from power? Oh wait, they aren't, they're only opposed to removing tyrants from power when they aren't in power. (Germany in WWI, Hirohito and Hitler in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Castro, Milosevic, Iraq) Hmm, actually they are for it when they are in power and they're against it after they gain power, but when they don't have power, they are for it sometimes.

But really, what's the difference? We depose tyrants. That's a good thing from a leftist point of view, right?

I can't speak for leftists.

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Yes, it's a very small world and my neighbor's brother was one of those falling from the Towers. Do you really need to disrespect the dead to make your point? Are your writing skills so weak as to not cohesively and poignantly express your opinion? Did you think that we have forgotten? I still have nightmares and they will be etched in my memory for the rest of my life. I still hear the pain in my business partners wife and children's voice over losing their father. If your memory is that short, view them on your time.

This is a not a lefty or righty issue. All I have to say is that I would never expect Obama to abuse his Executive Privileges and to not allow due process which is afforded by the Constitution and the Geneva Convention, even if it means eating some of his own party.

That's all I have to say about this.

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Mango, I am so sorry this happened on this board. I knew that you and some others on the Board had friends and relatives killed in 911; that is one of the reasons I asked that the photos be removed, the other being that this entire thread has been insensitive to many people.

I appreciate that everyone on here has the right to post whatever they want--and we all can choose to read or not; I am just disappointed that the approach that has been taken is what it is.
Now, the ignore button goes on.

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"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

Goodwitch, no need to apologize for the actions of others. I noted that the images disturbed others. So, sorry y'all felt visually violated.

I will be walking on our glorious beaches this morning contemplating the beauty that surrounds us and how fortunate we are to live here in this Country that allows us freedoms not always enjoyed elsewhere.

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True. FDR popularized it and it culminated with this picture.




and the public opinion of the Vietnam war was shifted by images like this.



and this



Was it disrespectful to the dead or injured above? Were the national media's writing skills so weak as to not cohesively and poignantly express their opinion without pictures? Neither 9/11 nor terrorism was the topic of the thread, politics and Obama's motives were, but it moved towards that topic, as often happens here. It is inconsistent, intellectually dishonest and incongruous to assert that the images are inflammatory and need not be shown (as much of the media asserted post 9/11) and attack the person who posted it.

Care to share your legal opinion on the Sheik's due process rights? I'm always fascinated by the way laymen speak with certainty about the law. Half the students flunk out of law school for a reason - they think like you.

9/11 was a massive intelligence failure. It's cute to say that our response was revenge oriented, but it is beneath you. Ground wars offered the quickest means to establish a base of operations in the Middle East, show our commitment to changing the culture that encouraged Islamists, and encourage other countries to stop harboring and funding them. That is far more reason to invade than the undisputed fact that overwhelming majority of the international intelligence community believed a crazy dictator who funded and harbored terrorists, waged war with the US in the past and shown no qualms about mass murder had a nuclear device that he was posturing with.

Playboy has images that some would consider inflammatory, but that doesn't mean I have to buy it because it needs to be shown. We have choices. Visual imagery is a form of expression and should not be hampered, but when it may assault the senses or emotion, I would ask a poster to post a link and a warning vs embedding the photo to allow their fellow board members the courtesy to view or not. Posters expressed distaste, but yet another image appeared as if there opinions didn't matter.

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Mango,
I did express my opinion in a subsequent post. I, along with you, don't consider this a lefty or righty issue. I think that a lot of people are using this as a political footbal.

I am truly sorry that you found this offensive. As a result of all of this, I will drop out of the political forum. It's certainly not worth the grief that I am feeling today. Again, I am sorry.

When I saw this photo, with an accompanying article, I was also upset, but it also brought me back to the emotions that I felt on that day. I think the term 9/11 gets tossed around so much in political arguments that to many it is just numbers.

I never fully appreciated the magnitude and the horror of the Normandy Invasion until I saw "Saving Private Ryan". Now, when I visit the D-day museum (now the WWII museum) the experience is even more sobering. I am baffled though, at how this country should proceed. If these terrible pictures of 9/11 are removed from our view, along with documentaries, etc..., will future generations really understand what occurred? For that matter, should movies such as "SPR" be allowed to be made?


Are the photos in the Holocaust Museum a reminder to not allow this to happen again, or is it disrespectful of the dead? I don't mean this to be argumentative. I truly don't know the difference, and exactly where the line should be drawn.

Side note to Bob: I fully expect you to continue with your name calling, and your incorrect assumptions about me (I am referring to your fetus comment) You won't get the satisfaction of a response. You win. You have not changed my opinion about me, but you have made me realize that I will find better things to do with my time.

I never said you had to purchase inflammatory images or that they needed to be shown, but politicians and the media has made sure in the past that images that will quickly sway public opinion are repeatedly shown. My point was to your previous position that the person who posted the picture had weak writing skills and were disrespectful to the dead.

I agree. Mango, sorry about your friend. I, too had friends living in NYC then. And, one of my brothers. It took me all day to locate all of my family that day. One cousin thankfully was in Texas and grounded from reaching NYC. He finally rented a car and drove home - took him three days. One in Canada - grounded. I was scheduled to leave and meet friends in the Eastern Block - didn't go.

It is a tough call because we do have our freedoms, which I believe in, but what is going on in this thread is ridiculous. I was about to use foul language and if any more images pop up, I will........why don't guys go back to the Holocaust and debate the rights and wrongs of Hitler as well....and, those who allowed him to do the egregious acts he got away with....for what? To beautify the world. I can come up with others, also. Y'all suck! I'm ticked!

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

During WWII the Japanese waterboarded US military personnel. We put them on trial and gave them prison terms or executed them for doing it.

During Vietnam we specifically said it was illegal and court-martialed people for doing it.

Waterboarding is torture, it is unacceptable, and it puts the US on par w/ the Gestapo, the Khmer Rouge, the Pinochet Regime, and the Spanish Inquisition (all documented waterboarders).

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The enemy is ignorance.

This would be a great argument if it were true, unfortunately for many of our military it is not. This is a quote from Scott Ritter on 7-20-2002 who was a chief weapons inspector for the U.N. in Iraq and spoke out against the invasion for the reasons below-

"Does Iraq truly threaten the existence of our nation? If one takes at face value the rhetoric emanating from the Bush administration, it would seem so. According to President Bush and his advisers, Iraq is known to possess weapons of mass destruction and is actively seeking to reconstitute the weapons production capabilities that had been eliminated by UN weapons inspectors from 1991 to 1998, while at the same time barring the resumption of such inspections.

I bear personal witness through seven years as a chief weapons inspector in Iraq for the United Nations to both the scope of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs and the effectiveness of the UN weapons inspectors in ultimately eliminating them.

While we were never able to provide 100 percent certainty regarding the disposition of Iraq's proscribed weaponry, we did ascertain a 90-95 percent level of verified disarmament. This figure takes into account the destruction or dismantling of every major factory associated with prohibited weapons manufacture, all significant items of production equipment, and the majority of the weapons and agent produced by Iraq.

With the exception of mustard agent, all chemical agent produced by Iraq prior to 1990 would have degraded within five years (the jury is still out regarding Iraq's VX nerve agent program - while inspectors have accounted for the laboratories, production equipment and most of the agent produced from 1990-91, major discrepancies in the Iraqi accounting preclude any final disposition at this time.)

The same holds true for biological agent, which would have been neutralized through natural processes within three years of manufacture. Effective monitoring inspections, fully implemented from 1994-1998 without any significant obstruction from Iraq, never once detected any evidence of retained proscribed activity or effort by Iraq to reconstitute that capability which had been eliminated through inspections.

In direct contrast to these findings, the Bush administration provides only speculation, failing to detail any factually based information to bolster its claims concerning Iraq's continued possession of or ongoing efforts to acquire weapons of mass destruction. To date no one has held the Bush administration accountable for its unwillingness - or inability - to provide such evidence.
Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld notes that ``the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.'' This only reinforces the fact that the case for war against Iraq fails to meet the litmus test for the defense of our national existence".

The President's hand picked man to confirm the existence of WMD's, David Kay, proved Scott was correct and Bush had it wrong.

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"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

Do you know the meaning of that expression?

I'm well aware that Ritter tried to convince everyone he was doing his job. Kay also testified that Iraq was seeking a delivery method from North Korea, that there were undisclosed weapons production facilities, and that Iraq was actively pursuing WMDs. It's nice to discuss later, poppy, but you can't fight wars in hindsight. I'm not discussing the war again. My point was to Bob's silly assertion that Bush led the country to war because Hussein tried to kill his daddy.

Yes.

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The enemy is ignorance.

If I am to assume that you actually understand what you typed, that statement brought hyperbole to a new level.

There's one thing that will bring this to a quick close for democrats - the polls -

* 58 percent of voters say the Obama administration's recent release of DOJ memos "endangers the national security of the United States." Fewer than half as many 28 percent, think it "helps America's image abroad."

* 70 percent also say America's legal system either does a good job of weighing security against individual rights, or puts too much emphasis on individual rights at the expense of security. Only 21 percent say the legal system is "too concerned about protecting national security."

* Only 28 percent want the Obama administration to investigate how the Bush administration treated terrorists. 58 percent want no such investigations.

* Obama's decision to close Guantanamo Bay is now disapproved of by a 46-36 margin, with support for Obama's action declining.

* A close minority - 49% rate Obama positively on national security matters.

Rasmussen Reports™: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere

Also, here were the rules for US interrogations for waterboarding. Every pour was counted, and the number of pours was limited. I couldn't find the rules for the Gestapo, the Khmer Rouge, the Pinochet Regime, or the Spanish Inquisitiors.

Waterboarding interrogation sessions were permitted on no more than five days within any 30-day period.

No more than two sessions were permitted in any 24-hour period.

A session could last no longer than two hours.

There could be at most six pours of water lasting ten seconds or longer — and never longer than 40 seconds — during any individual session.

Water could be poured on a subject for a combined total of no more than 12 minutes during any 24 hour period.

No, as always, the wignuts will beat themselves, claim that the better team lost, and blame the liberal media

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FOX NEWS-WE ALTER REALITY, YOU GET SOLD A PRECONCEIVED NARRATIVE

The head guy on torture at the UN claims Obama is violating the UN Convention on torture by refusing to prosecute CIA agents involved in waterboarding. This could get the Republicans on board with all of these truth commissions. We'll prosecute Bush and Cheney in US courts and turn Obama and Biden over to UN authorities as long as dopey Manfred promises to keep them.

UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

I am so looking forward to the Left/Right "group hug" that occurs at sunset at the Sowal Soiree Bon fire tomorrow. Its all good.

Lynnie, if you expect Bob or any of the other ultra left individuals on this board to"stop it", you are dreaming. While I recognize their right to say anything they wish, as long as it is partially civil, don't expect them to understand how those of us concerned with protection of our country and loved ones feel. It is obviously beyond their comprehension. They live in a world different in perspective that we do. Accept that and, for the most part, ignore them, though I must admit that at times that is impossible. I'll basically chalk it up to the fact that they were raised and educated differently than you and I.

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Speak out freely...Hold to the truth...Question boldly.

I certainly agree that this picture is totally insensitive. Unfortunately, that is all some understand anymore. I have seen a great number of "insensitive" things in my lifetime. I would love to see no more. But I can almost guarantee you that if we continue our present course in this nation, we will see more of the insensitivity to which you refer. Kurt, leave the pictures up. They are a reminder to many of us of what did and can happen and they, unfortunately, are real.

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Speak out freely...Hold to the truth...Question boldly.