6thGen

If that actually happened you'd have a good point.

Daugette_Matt

IF waterboarding is not torture, then why aren't theses techniques used on regular old american crimials?

If you think water boarding is not torutre,then lets fight to make it legal to waterboard our criminals. Like 16 year old pot smokers........they had to get it from somewhere.
Or we could waterboard the Craigslist killer until he confesses, that would sure save us a lot of money in court.

I think it's ridiculous that we are so afraid of these "terrorists" Let them hate us. So what.
They will never attack our country again. They are scared of us, flight 93 is the last plane the terrorists will hijack. No american will ever just sit there if their plane is hijacked.
the terrorists are now scared of us. Not our military or gov't........they are scared of americans. We took them down. Not the military.
Let all the gitmo people go. Let them come to the US if they would like. No american is going to let them get away with anything on our soil. Also most of the detainees are not criminals anyway, that's why we are holding them in Cuba.
does anyone care to explain that to me????????? Don't we hate Cuba? but we can open a torture camp there?
If Fidel was really a danger to the US don't you think that would be where he would attack? Why is he doing nothing about us on HIS soil?

By the way, does anyone remember why Bin laden said they attacked the WTC buildings after the attack? TO DISRUPT THE WORLD ECONOMY. Good thing we waterboarded all those people to keep that from happening.
Does anybody still think Bush did a good job?? Really??
Clinton handed him a economy with a 20 billion surplus.
Bush handed obama an econmy in shambles

I am embarrassed by George W. Bush
He is a putz.
And Cheney is just a wicked man
The right has lost its way.

JoshMclean

They would never attack us again??? Because they're scared of us??? I find it hard to believe that people that blow themselves up to kill innocent people would be scared of civilians foiling their plan to hijack a plane. Hijacking planes is really the least of our worries compared to biological and nuclear weapons. Just wait until they overthrow Pakistan and it's a free for all to get their nukes.

If you people think that the Bush administration is the first to implement harsh interrogation tactics then you have had the wool pulled over your eyes. It's just that in the past our leaders have kept top secret information under wraps. Exactly as it should be.

hnooe

So which is more worrisome?

Hamas having a free-for-all with Pakistani nukes, or all of our past leaders who seem to have been having a free-for-all with the U.S. Constitution, with the reasoning being that it is/was all "top secret"?

Maybe, they are both equally bad for American and the world.

scooterbug44

Did anyone watch the press conference last night? Obama summed it up pretty effectively and addressed all of this IMO. (The fact that he agrees with me on every single point is an added bonus.)

To sum it up:
-Obama is privy to a great deal of information (classified and unclassified) that was used to make this decision

-He does not believe that there is evidence that the info gotten from waterboarding could not have been gotten using other means.

-Neither Obama, nor other members of his National Security team feel that the decision to stop waterboarding is a threat to our safety.

-Waterboarding is torture.

-Torturing is against our values and everything our country stands for. (he said that several times)

-Waterboarding helps our enemies recruit

__________________
"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Lynnie

Good First 100 Days Speech.

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Rita

Yep Scooter - he emphasized over and over that he was comfortable with the decision and believed it to be within the ideals of what our country stands for. "Torturing is against our values and everything our country stands for."

Listening to him, I had an internal sigh of relief that 'he gets it'. We may not all be on the same page as to what we think the values of our country are or should be but I applaud him on this one!
And like it or not he presented credible reasons for the decision.

.

__________________

"Peace .... starts with the person who attempts to diffuse the tension and backs away from the inflammatory rhetoric."

full time

Please knock on your head!

poppy

Couldn't agree more.

__________________
"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

Tortured Artist

Torture build character and provides inspiration. If torturers are demonized, then only demons will torture. Torture releases one's creative juices and they shall flow like a river. In waterboarding, the water, or which ever liquid is used, becomes a sacrament.

hnooe

The Art of Torture? I don't TA know, but your avatar art is kind of torturous to look at. Welcome to the Political Forum anyway...

InletBchDweller

Poppy, I think you removed some words??? Maybe it is just me but quoting someone and then changing what they said is not nice.

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Lynnie

Mysterious poster - I thinks it's someone we know, no?

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

traderx

Yes someone we know.

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"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

poppy

You are correct and I apologize. It just fit so well it was hard to resist, won't happen again. I will now go torture myself and repent.

__________________
"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

poppy

The crawler on the news had an item about a survey of church goers finding they are more likely to support torture. Could this be related to the torture device displayed on top of the church steeple and worn around the neck on a chain?

__________________
"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

LuciferSam

You hit it on the head poppy. The primary religion in this country is based on sadistic ritualistic sacrifice. If Christ had been tickled to death there would be a feather at the top of the church steeple. Or maybe if he'd have been towel snapped to death. Then preachers would have something handy to wipe the nervous perspiration off their foreheads when they anxiously try to think of something new to say at each sermon. Just watching them having to get through that is torture for me.

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Daugette_Matt

wow............ this is another hotbed of political right and left stuff ain't it.

If what happens at gitmo is legal and not torture, then why can we not do the same things to american criminals? Our criminals are every bit as bada$$ as the right thinks these terrorists are.
So if your son is arrested with an "illegal substance" that could be used in the making of an imaginary suitcase nuke, he should be taken to gitmo and waterboarded until he gives the "american life saving" info that our government needs, and then afterwards still be locked-up indefinately in a foreign country, that is our enemy??????

That would be OK with all of you who agree that waterboarding is not torture?

9/11 was a bad day for all Americans, including me, But I do not like what we have done since, under W.

Allow me to explain my opinion..............................
When I was younger, My grandmother would often talk about the days of WWII. Of course she did not fight, but she was here. Doing the metal drives, USO, she was a "rosie riveter" and did without alot of stuff so "our boys could fight the war"
One particular story stuck with me since I was 11.

Just that She would see on newsreels or read in the paper about the war and the atrosities of it, But she would say rather proudly, "I do not care how nasty those germans treated our boys, America would never treat people like that, and that is why we won WWII."

What would she feel about waterboarding? or Stressed positions, or sleep deprivation, or "enhanced interrogation techniques"

I would be ashamed to try to tell her waterboarding is not torture

LuciferSam

Indeed the logical conclusion is that eventually these practices could be used against US citizens. Another thing is, how many people think that the torture stops as soon as you give out useful information? You know full well the interrogators are eventually going to get to the point where they're asking you about stuff you simply don't know. Your suffering is just getting started and the worst is yet to come at that point. All the torture afficionados need to watch the movie Brazil.

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InletBchDweller

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Lynnie

I have always found this interesting. I don't believe in the death penalty, but I know several people who are Christians that believe in this.

When you think about this and reduce it to the absurd, could you be the person in the prison ward who pushes the button, pulls the lever, injects the syringe? I certainly could not be that person.

Yikes! I have taught Cowboy to stop killing creatures in his own yard!
I guess that's why now I have to call him Mr. Pussy - makes him feel a little more macho. He doesn't look very macho lounging on top of my flowers, however.

I had to clean Sweet Pea's ears this morning and she screamed - 'bout broke my heart! She feels better, though. I'm sure in her mind, I was being very mean to her.

Ask my big brothers, tickling me is complete torture! (I am being facetious!) No kidding, they used to get in serious trouble for tickling me to my near death......couldn't breath fom laughing so hard. Had Christ been tickled to death, the proposed FL tag would certainly look much different.

I do not believe in torture of any kind.... I step over the worker ant lines. Maybe I am a Hare Krishna at heart! From a military perspective and protecting our country with all of its inhabitants - legal and illegal - if I had to choose a tactic to get information from an enemy, my choice would be sleep deprivation. Now, I don't know enough about this tactic, I presume it is someone dozing off and 15 min. later the warden is screaming at the enemy.

I can't watch scary movies, read anything violent or scary, watch the news if it is violent.......not what I choose to enter my consciousness.

Who is that mysterious poster? We're on to you, Dude!

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6thGen

Good article from Krauthammer today.

washingtonpost.com

There are two problems with the "good cop" technique. KSM, the mastermind of 9/11 who knew more about more plots than anyone else, did not seem very inclined to respond to polite inquiries about future plans. The man who boasted of personally beheading Daniel Pearl with a butcher knife answered questions about plots with "soon you will know" -- meaning, when you count the bodies in the morgue and find horribly disfigured burn victims in hospitals, you will know then what we are planning now.

The other problem is one of timing. The good cop routine can take weeks or months or years. We didn't have that luxury in the aftermath of 9/11 when waterboarding, for example, was in use. We'd been caught totally blind. We knew there were more plots out there, and we knew almost nothing about them. We needed to find out fast. We found out a lot.

Lynnie

Interesting. I'm glad I don't have to be a torturer.

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

6thGen

KSM also laughed and told them he wasn't saying anything until he got to New York and got a lawyer (that changed). I'm just happy we got what we did out of him before the rules changed to allow that.

Fishfood

This is one of the many curiousities in this whole debate. As far as I am concerned, The Geneva Conventions do not really apply to stateless, non-uniformed enemies. Some of these people behead reporters on video, etc. and it's hard to feel like they deserve the same protections as uniformed soldiers.

On the other hand, many of the people arguing that the government should torture the enemy with impunity are small government types, which I find fascinating. The problem with supporting the government's "right" to do as it will with anyone it deems an "enemy combatant" or "terrorist" is that some day, it might be you or someone you know. Maybe this seems far fetched and it probably is, but how can we be sure? It might be Ron Paul supporters or other "right wing extremists" next!

I don't think we should punish the people who waterboarded or gave legal opinions that it was OK, but everyone should stop and think about whether they really want to argue so vehemently in favor of Big Brother's right to torture anyone it wants.

Lynnie

What I have noticed (in general, not here necessarily) with many are consistent inconsistencies within their beliefs and their respective parties' beliefs. I tend to agree that this has more to do with Bush Hatred/America Hatred than anything.

That said, I still do not believe in torture of any kind, but have been told by military personnel that sleep deprivation is quite effective. Is that 'torture?'

I should add that while I do not believe in the death penalty I do believe in hard punishment for the offender...i.e. hard prison term. I'm no pansy ass here.

I'd like to also note that it is mankind that places levels of severity on the offense. In God's eyes, a sin is a sin is a sin.....this one is often difficult to grasp. Stealing a pencil is the same as _____________ (fill in the blank). Should nations be assertive in protecting themselves? ABSOLUTELY!

Should confidential/classified memos regarding the protection of the USA (and, everyone here....I keep stressing this because we do protect more than just ourselves) become public? Tough call. I hope we never are attacked again, but if we are what should we do?

Just thankful I don't have to be that person. I would not be a good militant.

__________________
Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

30ashopper

Well, there you go.

Intelligence Report: Pelosi Briefed on Use of Interrogation Tactics in Sept. ’02 - The Note

They were for it before they were against it before they knew about it before they knew they were not briefed.

scooterbug44

OR, they were briefed on it, but couldn't tell anyone it was going on, so they passed a bill in both the House and Senate outlawing it - which Bush vetoed and whose veto they attempted to override and failed.

__________________
"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

30ashopper

I don't remember hearing about a bill like that coming to a vote scooter. Care to detail the HR XXXX number?

scooterbug44

Believe it was HR 2082 - see post #145. If I remember correctly it was an appropriations bill.

__________________
"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

poppy

It could be a top secret bill that would embolden the terrorists if made public.

__________________
"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

Lynnie

I'm confused. Pelosi (and others from both parties) was briefed in 2002. HR2082 was proposed in 2008. Was it top secret and classified in 2002, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07?

I could be missing something, here..........

__________________
Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

full time

I have absolutely no problem with Pelosi having known about our waterboarding of a select few Gitmo detainees, but then again I have no moral qualms with the act itself for the purposes given. For those of you calling for Bush/Cheney, et al scalps, the above justification is a real head scratch-er. If Pelosi was truly against the action and she was concerned she was being co-opted by the President, she should have detailed it in a letter to the President and saved it for all posterity. So, she's either really stupid ..... or she thinks the American people are.

Lynnie

I can't say this for certain, but it seems that Pelosi's inaction regarding what she was briefed on 2002 (evidently classified until 2008, when it was proposed as a bill), was for her own personal political gain.

I'm sure both parties do this, but is it right to withhold certain info. for gain personally or for gain of a political party?

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sunspotbaby

Politicians are like a bunch of 8 year olds. They do what they do because everybody else is doing it.

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full time

I don't believe "personal political gain" is a valid defense in a war crimes trial which is what many on this board would like to see for Bush administration officials. Unfortunately, many of the most powerful political champions of the left would have to get comfortable with the moniker "defendant" in such a case.

Lynnie

I don't either. I was actually giving her the benefit of the doubt - yes, rather sarcastically.

Let the trials begin!

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hnooe

I will be happy for Pelosi to go down in flames along with Dick Cheney, Gonzales, Rumsfeld, et al--there are just times you HAVE to throw the baby out with the bathwater! I am just glad Bush Sr. has told his son to keep his mouth totally shut for now!

full time

So you think Pelosi is the only one on the left who would take the fall? Maybe she's right - Americans are dim (assuming you're native).

Lynnie

Hey now~~~~ I'm Native American~~~I prefer American Indian.
Although, something tells me that might be a tipo?

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