6thGen

Bob,
I'm going to talk about you like you aren't here when you are. Please excuse me. I'm basically copying a PM I sent to someone who sent me a PM saying you were an idiot.

Andy,
I think Bob is has the mindset that legal proceedure is more important than the consequences deriving therefrom. That also would explain his idea that these are things that mark what is truly "American." The founders were far more concerned with protection of property rights, commerce, and national defense than any of these obscure legal principles that were basically invented in the mid-20th century, but that is not the common view among members of the bar.

hnooe

How freakin' dare you. Speaking for myself, you do not know me, how I was raised, where I am from, where I was educated, etc.

I will "thank you" for your service, once again. But I am very tired of your holier- than-thou, sanctimonius attitde. It is really uncalled for.

There is something called the IGNORE button, if you don't want to hear it, then HIT it. I like to hear all point of view myself.

Thanks you, and thank you for your service Andy A.

sunspotbaby

Every country needs their Jack Bauer.

__________________
Don't confuse having less with being less, having more with being more, or what you have with who you are. Noah benShea

LuciferSam

Indeed, thank my lucky stars!

__________________
Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one, and they're shallow and fuzzy.

poppy

You brought it up and you're damn right you don't fight wars in hindsight, you make sure you have enough evidence to justify starting one, unlike "W".

__________________
"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

LuciferSam

You have to understand, Andy served bravely so that people with his primitive mentality will never achieve power in this great nation of ours.

__________________
Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one, and they're shallow and fuzzy.

mikecatadjuster

We dropped some big, big bombs on Japan's 'civilian' population. I seem to remember it having a pretty severe impact. We've done some other pretty drastic things in war, so it surprises me that some people have the intelletcual dishonesty to want to pursue people in our government for pouring water over people's heads or dunking their heads into water. Let's see, an atomic bomb that kills and maimes inncocent people, or pouring water over someone's head. Yeah, this is a good arguement that we should pursue this, publicly I might add! Please people, leave Bush and his administration alone. If we go down this path we... well, it does little use to continue. Some people can't be honest with themselves regarding what this is about.

30ashopper

Exactly. This isn't about torture, it's about getting back at George Bush. Apparently this is more important to some than other things, like national security.

Mango

RDeMars, your dropping out of the political forum was not anyone's intent. I have seen the images before. I was more disappointed that when others expressed distaste for the image, that another one, by an avid poster, was posted subsequently. A poster who receives lots of thanks by others on this Board and I felt it was rather dismissive. This irked me--since I like to think that regardless of opinion that respect is still held for fellow posters.

So, if I sounded somewhat harsh, that was my reasoning and had less to do with the images. Thank you for the apology. It shows your character and I am sure those who were offended are grateful.
Please feel free to continue with the discussion y'all, This is a highly charged subject and worthy of debate, but let's keep it civil.

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Winnie

Thank goodness, it looks like common sense will prevail in this case:

Commission on CIA Tactics Is Unlikely - WSJ.com
and

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/us...pagewanted=all
...


This thread is a great example of how this type of investigation could be counter-productive.

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They’re all for diversity in everything but thought.
George Will

goodwitch58

Andy, you totally misunderstand my post. If you are going to quote it in your post, then I would like you to at least understand what I meant. Perhaps I was not clear. So,

I do not find the photo insensitive: I find the photo disturbing.

What I find insensitive, is the fact that it was posted on this community message board without any apparent thought to the fact that many of the people who regularly post on this board had friends, neighbors, or loved ones who were lost in the towers that day.

No one needs to be confronted with these photographs to remember what happened that morning.

It was that thoughtlessness that I found insensitive and then it was compounded by posting other, equally disturbing photos, in some twisted attempts to make a point. Again, with total disregard for the fact that at least two of us had expressed that we found the posting insensitive and disturbing and asked that it stop.

I was disappointed that, while we are a virtual message board, and not a real neighborhood, I thought that we had more respect for each other than that...it was senseless and painful IMO.

And, the second posting was so dismissive of everyone else's feelings -- after they have been expressed.

It is sad that we have no more concern for one another. None of us really knows how much one of us might be affected by the photos -- and yes, we can choose not to see them; but, only after we have had them appear.

As far as the issue of torture goes, I choose to stand with John McCain who is the only person I know about who actually knows what torture is..If he can say it is wrong and sign onto the the Senate Armed Forces Committee Report, then that is enough for me.

(Of course every other piece of information I have read shows that it is illegal and against the standards by which we have chosen to abide. Now, we learn that the "experts" in the Pentago were warning the Bush Administation as early as Dec 2001, that torture not only was illegal, it does not afford "actionable" information. From my reading the military has all along been on record as against torture. There are statements on the record from every branch of service warning the Administration against going down that path. And, they did it anyway and let the enlisted people take the fall when the photos emerged.)

30A Shopper, my feelings about this thread and about this issue have nothing to do with getting back at George Bush--he is the one who must live with the consequences of his actions, just as we all do. That is no longer of any concern to me. He is no longer the president.

However, as of now, torturing people by Americans is against the law--we signed (in fact, we helped to draft) the portions of the Geneva Conventions that make it illegal. If we do not want that to be part of our moral code, then we should not have signed; if we do not intend to uphold what we agreed as a country to do, then we should take ourselves off the Geneva Conventions.

Because, absent that, we put every one of our military and CIA men and women, who are serving in harms' way, in even greater danger--and, for me that is unacceptable. They deserve better from us.

In the meantime, here on this community message board, I hope we can all remember that we do not know what each other's experience is, unless we have walked in each other's shoes.

Respect and dignity toward one another are important aspects of a civil society. We do not have to agree, but we can disagree in a mature, civil manner. At least I hope so. And, that is what I found insensitive; on this thread we did not do that.

__________________

"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

LuciferSam

I don't grade atrocities on a curve so what you're saying doesn't make any sense. Furthermore Japan's civilian population perished as a result of an act of war, not as a result of some illegal activity during detainment. I don't consider dropping the bombs to be an atrocity, well at least no more than I might consider war to be an atrocity, albeit a necessary act at times. If you want to make a comparison, let's look at the unlawful detainment of U.S. citizens of Japanese descent during WWII. Being unlawfully detained is not as bad as being vaporized, I must concede, but it was still wrong and I believe the people responsible were held accountable. In any event our policies changed. It is no different in the case of torturegate. People should be held accountable and de facto policies must change.

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Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one, and they're shallow and fuzzy.

30ashopper

Was that aimed at me? I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was offending anyone. That moment in history was a powerful and very sad one. It's not something to be covered up, or forgotten. Images of that day serve as reminders of what people went through and what we face.

Looking back over the posts I see I missed goddwitch's request the first be removed - my apologies gw, I didn't mean to offend or upset you.

added - I can't edit the post to remove it, it's expired or some such nonsense.

30ashopper

Again, if that was aimed at me, my apologies. I really was just skimming the thread until I got involved. I'll try to be more carefule in the future.

This is a tough subject. It would be nice if people we fight against stood on an equal moral ground. In the past, this was possible when war was, ehm, more civilized. But that has not been the case in recent conflicts. The line I draw on the subject is pretty solid. I would never advocate some of the things I've seen that made my skin crawl. (The Hensley video for example, I really just do not even want to remember it as it sickens me.) But when it comes to something as harmless as dunking an enemy combatant's head in a bucket of water in an effort to get some intel, well, in my personal opinion that's not torture. I have no issue with it.

We have to be careful, the British lost the Revolutionary War because they were too civilized. We should not make the same mistakes they did. I think though that Iraq is proof that a "civilized army" can beat an uncivilized foe. We just have to remember that war involves killing the other guy and making sure there are more of us standing than them in the end. That may involve things we do not feel comfortable with but don't necessarily cross a "hard line".

Also, FYI, the Geneva Conventions are based on very generalized agreements that carry no weight in our legal system. There is nothing "illegal" about breaking an international treaty, assuming one was actually broken.

6thGen

The purpose of the Geneva Convention was reciprocity, and we did not violate it. We are not putting military and CIA in more danger, as terrorists have no history of respect for the GC.

goodwitch58

"Torture is bad, and as to whether the procedures outlined in the memos constituted torture, you could do worse than follow the wisdom of John McCain, who says, "Waterboarding is torture, period." This is something he'd know about. Abuse is wrong not only in a specific and immediate sense but in a larger one: It coarsens and damages the nation that does it while undermining its reputation in the world and its trust in itself"

Peggy Noonan, writing in today's Wall Street Journal
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124052010393349643.html

__________________

"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

goodwitch58

at least one of the former interrogators feels differently:

"Fortunately for me, after I objected to the enhanced techniques, the message came through from Pat D’Amuro, an F.B.I. assistant director, that “we don’t do that,” and I was pulled out of the interrogations by the F.B.I. director, Robert Mueller (this was documented in the report released last year by the Justice Department’s inspector general).

My C.I.A. colleagues who balked at the techniques, on the other hand, were instructed to continue. (It’s worth noting that when reading between the lines of the newly released memos, it seems clear that it was contractors, not C.I.A. officers, who requested the use of these techniques.)

As we move forward, it’s important to not allow the torture issue to harm the reputation, and thus the effectiveness, of the C.I.A. The agency is essential to our national security. We must ensure that the mistakes behind the use of these techniques are never repeated. We’re making a good start: President Obama has limited interrogation techniques to the guidelines set in the Army Field Manual, and Leon Panetta, the C.I.A. director, says he has banned the use of contractors and secret overseas prisons for terrorism suspects (the so-called black sites). Just as important, we need to ensure that no new mistakes are made in the process of moving forward — a real danger right now."

Ali Soufan was an F.B.I. supervisory special agent from 1997 to 2005.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/op...soufan.html?em

__________________

"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

30ashopper

Doing a little reading on this, it turns out that senior members of the intelligence committee authorized and monitored what was going on. Current members of the intelligence committee are now suggesting that an independent "Truth Commission" wouldn't be a good idea and that the current committee should have a hearing.

Now here's the kicker - certain members of our current democratic leadership were members of the intelligence committee back when this was authorized, and those members are still on that committee.

washingtonpost.com

No truth commission on torture, says Obama - The Irish Times - Sat, Apr 25, 2009

Bush-era CIA officials push back | The Cable

If this whole thing is let to unwind, it's going to be ugly, and a lot of people are going to get roped in. Maybe that's what our current leadership wants? It would make the perfect side show for distracting the public away from other issues.

JoshMclean

I think we should just set this up in Seaside and let everybody go at it.

Attached Images

boxing.jpg (54.2 KB, 59 views)

Yarmap

Since the U.S. Supreme Court stoped the Democrat Florida courts giving the 2000 election to Al Gore who lost the count. The Democratics have been operating on hate of George Bush ever since. Thats all they have that bonds them together and thats all they have with their new President.

I didn't vote for him but wanted to believe that he was a man of his word but he is apparently a hater too.

Rita

.
Say what?!...

.

__________________

"Peace .... starts with the person who attempts to diffuse the tension and backs away from the inflammatory rhetoric."

Bob

you can do better than rovian talking points from '03.

Bob

6thGen, Andy's basically a good guy. You are a well thought out guy. I am just here to make you both stop and think a little more about the rectitude of your certainty. The last century was the most violent in our history. Our country's military responses must be of a last resort and highly focused ala FDR/Eisenhower. The legacies of three redneck amigos Truman/Johnson/Bush are the benchmarks to be avoided. i am still a registered republican who would most enjoy seeing the pitchfork throwing element of the party sent on permanent vacation to build war memorials in all the town squares of serbia. the serbs think torture is an appetizer to ethnic cleansing.

Geo

Hi All:

I have been on a Sowal sabbatical- at least as a regular poster. This has been an interesting thread. Just wanted to contribute the following:

1) I wish we would quit reinforcing the division (or expectation of it) that exists between the two prevalant political parties. Has anyone considered that folks on both sides want to know what happened regarding this issue? What were the laws? Did our previous administration violate those laws? Did they lie about it? Are these laws too ambigious for us to draw these conclusions? These are really complex issues and I believe it is a bit too simple minded to presume that people's opinions (and more importantly- their motivations)are based on what we are told Dems believe vs. Republicans. Are there dems who want to discuss this just to stick it to Bush because he is on the "other team"? Sure. But that doesn't mean everyone who disapproved of Bush policy for 8 years falls into this category and it definitely doesn't mean the logical conclusion is to *not* look into it.

2) I regret that some folks found the 9-11 images disturbing. And perhaps the posters could have considered putting a disclaimer or linking to them to spare sensitive eyes. However, censorship is not a friend of SoWal and I was alarmed by calls to Kurt to remove the images. Furthermore, just because folks posted them to make a point does not necessarily mean they are lacking in written communication skills. Remember the cliche- A picture is worth a thousand words. Images are powerful communcation devices.

3) Last point- the political forum is tough grown up stuff. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that you should pack it up and go home. Stick around, refine your points and continue to endulge in the argument. It is so lame when someone presents a point, someone else takes the time to engage and challenge said point and then the original poster quits. If the politics forum is too much for you then retire to The Lounge, please. Someone will be here when you get back reloaded and ready to engage...

:)

2 cents,

Cheers, G

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Bob

criminals do not respect the law so we too shall pass?

goodwitch58

Geo, I agree with your thoughts about some who wish to make everything an "us against them"...there are many on both sides of the political spectrum who wish to know what has actually happened during this war; it will eventually come out and it is not necessarily partisan .

I was not advocating for censorship when I asked that the photos be removed; it would not have bothered me if there had been a link to the photos with an identification of what it was; if that's what the poster wanted to display; it would have given the viewer the choice of whether or not, he or she looked at such a dramatic visual, or passed on it. Because as you point out, visuals are power communication tools...

It was the (apparent) thoughtlessness of splashing those photos --especially when it was done a second time--that concerned me, especially when the original subject was not the destruction of the towers.and the photos added nothing to the discussion in my opinion; if anything, it distracted from it. .However, my post is simply my opinion and obviously it was taken as just that by Kurt, as the photos remained.

Two of the posters did apologize for not thinking of the impact of the photos and I appreciate that. Perhaps there was no harm intended, but it certainly felt differently when I first read the post.
I felt, and continue to feel, that it was an unnecessary action that was potentially hurtful to some on the board.

I am glad that it was not intended in a hurtful way and hope that we continue to discuss the issues. It is helpful to hear others' opinions, even if we do not agree, and sometimes disagree very strongly, and it very important to have open communication IMO.Often it is the information we disagree with the most that offers the most opportunity for growth.

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"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

6thGen

And you can do better than the lowest common denominator from daily kos.

As for the GC, treaties only work when they are signed by both participating parties.

full time

Yes ..... and I consider those people fools or worse because they want it hashed out in public in the form of truth commissions and special prosecutors in order to satisfy a political vendetta. It makes absolutely no sense to any Republican or Democrat in control of all of their faculties. Obama is clearly trying to regain control of his after a moment of temporary insanity.

poppy

Having trouble understanding this fear of the truth. Why do we support hearings, trials, tribunals, commissions, etc. in other countries but not here? Are you afraid for the country or is it just you who doesn't want to know what happened?

__________________
"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

Bob

i've never read the daily kos, but, for you, it can reside on my favorites.

full time

Why pose questions to me as if you are open to discussion? I know what you think ..... in case you don't know what I think, I think you've either taken leave of your senses or you're too young to fully comprehend the consequences of what you propose (or both) and we can leave it at that. It might not matter what we think because Obama has the swine flu issue as a much needed and welcomed distraction from the memos. He's probably half hoping that all of his constituents pushing for truth commissions will head down to Mexico and contract the virus and be quarantined there until the end of his term.

Geo

So I can't tell-
But I believe you are calling me a fool for asking for the truth to reveal itself and wanting to hold people accountable. I was/am no fan of Bush/Cheney (no secret) but I have no political vendetta and want them to fade away...

And despite what folks might assume-
I am neither a democrat nor a republican. But I am in control of most of my facilities (excluding nights that involve drinking Jagermeister)...


FT, I think we agree that the way truth commissions, special prosecutors, etc. are handled within/surrounding government is a joke and a completely useless/fruitless exercise for everyone. As such, I also mostly agree that it is not the smartest move for Obama to play this out (assuming he is doing it for political reasons irrespective of what Bush/Cheney did/didn't do wrong...

Beating the dead horse-
I take exception to the generalization that anyone who wants truth/accountablity must be:

-A democrat
-A fool
-Someone who has lost their facilities
-Someone who has a political vendetta
-Someone who is too young to understand the consequences

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Geo

I am disgusted by the fact that only 3 Republicans voted for Obama's stimulus and 0 Republicans voted for his Budget Blueprint. IMHO, this is clearly an indication that elected officials do not think for themselves and are much too caught up in the Biparty system...

Here is a CNN article about Obama's loss of Bipartisanship...

Bipartisanship didn't last long in Obama's first 100 days - CNN.com

EDIT: For the record, I am as equally troubled by the fact that so many dems backed him on these issues...

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TooFarTampa

This is the kind of [EDIT]baseless hyperbole[EDIT] that makes this thread a special form of torture in itself.

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Proud to practice indoctrination
at least when it comes to the GATOR NATION

full time

No offense meant but I don't follow the logic that wants to hold government attorneys accountable for legal opinions, CIA agents accountable for carrying out duties in accordance with those legal opinions and a former President accountable for trying to pursue all available measures to prevent another 9/11 style attack.

Geo

Hi FT,

I was calling BS on you but it was without emotion and no offense was taken. Don't go away...



I don't follow that logic either. But is that what happened? Because I do not know and that is my point. I want to know what happened.

In the meantime, I want to understand what you are saying. Is it really that easy to be above the law? can an elected official simply find an attorney who will express an opinion that an act is legal (irrespective of laws on the books or existing inalienable rights) and then ask someone else to commit the act because they said so?

And then when someone calls them on it, all they have to say is-

You can't punish the person who committed the physical act (or me for authorizing it) because I told them to do it based on my attorney's opinion...

Now if I could only find a crooked attorney.
haha

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30ashopper

From what I've read, neither side has an interest in airing their dirty laundry on this subject. So my guess is while there may be some sort of hearing or other form of public show, it'll likely not reveal anything except divisions between parties. Both sides of the political isle seem to be interested in covering up decision they made 7 years ago now that those decisions are no longer considered 'stylish'.

Bob

hyperbole, the other white meat!

full time

Having a CIA and a Justice Department that can operate effectively without fear that its agents and attorneys are going to be subjected to public scrutiny by the morons on capital hill preening for the national press in a circus atmosphere overrides your need "to know".

poppy

Thanx for the compliment but I'm at the end of my 5th decade on this planet.

As for the second part it speaks for itself as to your mindset.

I agree, this is why we need to find out what happened. There are members from both parties who are responsible for this tragic period in our country's history. Let's expose these individuals to the American people and put this behind us so it will not happen again.

__________________
"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug

Andy A.

I am really curious. Do any of the posters on this issue or any other issue know, realize or care what the classification system regarding government information means? Top Secret means there is not a "need to know" for the general public because it could put the lives of our agents, military and even diplomats in danger. Think about what you are asking to be released, how recent is the information, will its release possibly lead to harm to our own people and is its release going to harm the country as a whole. When information is no longer of value or possible use to our enemies I am all for releasing it. Care should be taken that this is the case. It is not every citizen's right to know things or be privy to information that could lead to the possible destruction of our methods of engagement used to keep our military, CIA and citizens safe from whomever the foe may be.

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Congress only does two things well...Nothing at all and overreacting.

Bob

that would be how the KGB does it. the failure in your logic is that you believe the ends justifies the means when it lines up with your political views. the law is an annoyance?

Bob

this from someone who concludes waterboarding is not torture. your friend here is dick cheney. i say he's on the wrong side of the law hiding behind executive privilege ala nixon. we are a nation of laws, not run by thugs and strongmen....it's what separates us from the many. it is the brilliance of our government. your argument is one of lawless expedience. gw and the wyoming draft dodger are wide open on this issue of torture.

InletBchDweller

Very true Andy. In this day and age with the internet and videos on phones people want to see all and know all --- immediately!! There are just some things that we dont need to know. Not b/c if we agree on it or not but b/c it is for our protection.....

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scooterbug44

I can certainly appreciate that there are details and techniques of intelligence and military operations that I do not need to be privy to - but that is VERY different from being blatantly lied to so they can continue to do things that go against everything our country stands for and represents!!!

The President (and apparently other elected officials of both parties) specifically telling the American people we are NOT doing something when it is in fact going on w/ their full knowledge is unacceptable.

The President vetoing HR 2082 because it bans waterboarding (along w/ other torture techniques such as mock executions, beatings, electrical shocks, forced nakedness, sexual acts, causing hypothermia and heat injuries) is unacceptable.

Those are not the actions of a democratic leader or a true American - no matter how much you want to justify it or try and scare us.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Andy A.

I am not trying to scare anyone but it is a very serious breach of security and the ability of those engaged in protection of our country to do their jobs efffectively. I won't comment further on waterboarding except to say its use could be part of our escape and evasion training. Since I was never "captured" during my training, I didn't experience it. Many of our pilots, did however. SB44, on this one we will have to disagree but be aware I have very strong feelings regarding ANYTHING that might put our military at risk. The unnecessary, unwarranted and irresponsible release of any material classified Top Secret, Secret and above can create such a risk.

__________________
Congress only does two things well...Nothing at all and overreacting.

scooterbug44

It is common knowledge that waterboarding resistance is part of SERE training - because it is a technique frequently used by the nasty people who torture enemy soldiers in violation of the Geneva Convention etc.

There are a lot of other extremely evil (and thus probably rather effective) techniques that those same scumbags use. I don't want us using any of those techniques and I certainly don't want them used on any of our military personnel who are captured.

My refusal to condone the torture of people by US government personnel with the full knowledge and approval of the president does not make our military personnel any less safe.

Our government not following agreed upon rules for how prisoners are treated most definitely does.

__________________
"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Andy A.

I am not talking only about the torture memos etc. here. I am talking about it rolling over into the release of classified information. It should not be done until such information is reviewed by all concerned and DECLASSIFIED!!!

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Congress only does two things well...Nothing at all and overreacting.

Geo

And boom- there it is.
Nice Scooter!!!

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poppy

These are the same people who felt that exposing the identities of covert CIA agents did not threaten national security, go figure.

__________________
"We must recognize the fact that adequate food is only the first requisite for life. For a decent and humane life we must also provide an opportunity for good education, remunerative employment, comfortable housing, good clothing and effective and compassionate medical care." Norman Borlaug