BeachSiO2

Since it appears to be moving along, I wanted to start a new thread. With both House and Senate bills totaling over $800 billion the next step is underway- conferencing. I thought some might be interested in who will be the teams for the conferencing process. It should be interesting to watch due to some major discrepancies in the two like-priced but different priority bills. The one question for me is whether the House will fight (negotiate) for something that loses the three Senate Republican votes it took to pass it. Or, if they can hold the shaky alliance together. Here are you're sausage making teams:

On the Senate Side, you have (3 D, 2 R): Sens. Inouye (D-HI), Baucus (D-MT), Reid (D-NV), Cochran (R-MS), and Grassley (R-IA).

On the House side, you have (3 D, 2 R): Reps. Obey (D-WI), Rangel (D-NY), Waxman (D-CA), Lewis (R-CA), and Camp (R-MI).

These negotiating teams are some of the highest ranking members on the major committees either majority or minority. One item I find note is that the ranking members (party leaders) are typically referred to as Cardinals. There goes that seperation of Church and State thing...

Anybody want to handicap this negotiation? Will it meet Arlen Spector's (R-Senator who supports the bill) requirements...

"My support for the Conference Report on the stimulus package will require that the Senate compromise bill come back virtually intact including, but not limited to, overall spending, the current ratio of tax cuts to spending, and the $110 billion in cuts."

Santiago

Let's hope like hell that it doesn't come back virtually intact. This is ridiculous. After the election, I actually started warming up to Obama. He could of started producing some of the change he promised by taking the lead on this "stimulus" package and producing something that might actually stimulate the economy. Instead, he lets Reid and Pelosi basically package everything that they've wanted to do over the last 10 years and couldn't get done and call it a stimulus package. I hope to God this fails and then I would like to see Obama take charge and see what he's made of. I think he could actually get some support from Republicans if he were driving the train rather than the other two bozo's.

Beach Runner

I, too, am disappointed in the "spendulus." The pro-Democrat Atlanta Journal-Constitution says Stimulus bill just pork in new disguise | ajc.com

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Smiling JOe

I spent more time researching my last vehicle purchased, than Congress will spend debating this Bill which is so enormous and complex, that they won't even read, nor understand! ...and FL Gov Charlie Crist can kiss my @ss. (he supports it)

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scooterbug44

Most of the items that article listed as "pork" I disagree with.

I can see a direct link between the stated goal of improving our country's infrastructure and creating construction jobs, improving health care, and stimulating the economy w/ most of them. It's money we are spending now to save $ in the future.

For example, we're already spending billions to bail out automakers, so $650 million to buy cars that are more fuel efficient (and gas prices are expected to rise again) means long term savings and money going through the faltering auto industry and into our economy.

People rail against STD prevention and anti-smoking being included, but treating the results of those are a massive cost to our government health care system.

Two that I do TOTALLY think of as dumbarse pork - honeybee insurance and the stupid analog TV conversion thing. Convert the tvs already, if they don't work you either buy a $50 converter, get cable, or a new TV. If you don't want to do this, that is your choice. Don't understand the bee thing.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Lynnie

Bank CEO's are being questioned now. Where did the money go and why wasn't credit made available - finally - let's hold them accountable.

We don't want them to fail, but they have to open their books........

And, this will hold up Obama and his plan. It's much better to engage in the due diligence than to have some of the recipients knocking on our doors in 8-12 mos. needing more.

I think to receive any of this cash infusion, you must show your books and show financial responsibility with a plan! Just as you and I would have to do making application for a loan.

The Bush TARP failed and we can learn from it now as opposed to letting politicians scratch they heads wondering why it didn't work under the better administration.

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

Smiling JOe

Sen Charles Schumer said that people don't care about the pork, which supposedly equates to over $300 Billion.

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Smiling JOe

I'm wondering what Sen. Mel Martinez means when he refers to the possibility of needing a "second stimulus bill," in his recent reply to me for a letter which I sent him. Our future great-grandchildren haven't seen anything yet!

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Lynnie

Hey SJ - I think I still have Mel's letter to me, which was obviously a canned form letter at best.

When I find it, I will place here - with my response begging for my own Congressional Hearings so I can beg for money.

I am disappointed in all them right now..........

But, dang proud to be an American!! Because I know we'll work through this. Will be tough, but we'll make it!!

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

Smiling JOe

I think we should all send IOUs to the IRS this year, in place of checks. Heck, if California can send IOUs to the people, we should be able to send them to the gov't.

Seems to me that the Fed Gov't is just using fear to increase the size of gov't, and the monkeys on our grand-children's backs.

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scooterbug44

I am REALLY hoping that the new push for transparency and accountability will help reduce spending, waste, and pork overall, but think it's going to take a while to teach old washington new tricks.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Smiling JOe

lol. now that is funny, scooterbug! transparency in spending. I have yet to hear anyone explain where the first $350 billion went, and how it did anything to stimulate the economy. From what I can tell, it and the 2008 Economic Stimulus Act, did absolutely nothing except to increase the debt of this Country, and pad the bankers pocketbooks.

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scooterbug44

I don't know where it went either - that's why I am looking forward to being able to go to the website and SEE where this $ is going.

I am sure I will disagree with some of its direction, but at least it will be there a modicum of a reference point and politicos will have to justify it come election time.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Smiling JOe

You will never see full disclosure as long as we have gov't.

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dgsevier

[quote=Smiling JOe;531225] From what I can tell, it and the 2008 Economic Stimulus Act, did absolutely nothing [quote]

It did allow me to make the mortgage payment on my beach house that month

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I'm shovel-ready and too big to fail

Smiling JOe

That is exactly what I noted in my recent letters to my Senators. The banks were the only ones who benefitted from the 2008 Economic Stimulus Act, and the first $350 billion of this 2009 Act. That doesn't exactly stimulate the economy.

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dgsevier

What was their reply? Just curious...

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I'm shovel-ready and too big to fail

traderx

You can see how your Congressional delegation voted at the linked website.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-5140

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"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

Beach Runner

This just in -- "spendulus" bill dropped from $838 to $789 billion. Last week someone on CNN was trying to demonstrate just how big a number $838 billion is. He said that if a million dollars a day were used to pay off a debt of that amount, it would take almost 2296 years to do so.

Now at $789 billion, it's just a mere 2162 years.

Here's another ludicrous thing regarding numbers. Obama says that he will cap the income of CEOs of corporations who receive money from the U.S. government at $500,000. Doesn't he know that many other executives at these companies make much more than that? On CNN someone in the Obama camp was asked why they picked the number $500,000. He shrugged his shoulders and said that he thought it was because that's more than the president, the chief justice, or any other government employee makes.

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kathydwells

You can come and live in Alabammer with me. Our Governor does not support it.

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~He can who thinks he can, and he can't who thinks he can't. This is and inexorable, indisputable law.~ Pablo Picasso.

singinchicken

This is the kind of bullshiat that reminds people every few years to think, "Oh yeah, that's why they couldn't hold control..."

Republicans have caught the Democrats in a midnight “stimulus” power play that seeks to cut Republican conferees out of the House-Senate negotiations

Republicans Shut Out of Stimulus Conference Negotiations - HUMAN EVENTS

Transparent? cough**bullshiat**cough
Bipartisan? Pure unmitigated BS...

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traderx

I am curious as to how the Obamanistias feel about this.

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

scooterbug44

Um, I think I missed the hysteria inducer in the article.

Why wouldn't the staffers of the House leader and Senate leader get together to prepare the report?

They've all been debating it at length, it consists of combining 2 bills that have already passed, it still has to be voted on and they made it a condition that it has to be publicly posted for 48 hours before the vote ....................... so how are the Repubs being shut out?

If they put stuff in that isn't as agreed upon, they won't get the votes.

P.S. The article is posted on a site that touts itself as "the headquarters of the conservative underground" and wants me to click a link and join the NRA

Here's a link to an AP article on MSNBC that seems much more believable - after meetings yesterday they drew up a bill and are continuing to have meetings and negotiate the terms today as they can't pass it w/o the support of people from BOTH parties.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29136678/

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

singinchicken

Uhhh...they are not allowing Republican input into the final version that will be voted on...hello?

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scooterbug44

How are they not allowing their input?

They're spending another day going back in forth in meetings negotiating the terms w/ them......................and continuing to revise what they had staffers type up last night to get the FINAL version that they will ALL vote on!

That's like saying a boss has no input on the letter the secretary typed up according to his/her directions and that he/she will review again before signing.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Lynnie

I like all the meetings they're having~~~~~~~~~~~


CEO of co. I used to work for made over $14MM. Yep, $14,000,000 and the Presidents, VP's made between $750K and $2MM. I am all about capitalism and making money.

We had people in mail room and clerical staff, some entry level positions who could barely pay their bills.

I thought how cool would it be if my CEO cut his salary only by $3MM (leaving himself $11MM) and put that money right back into human capital within the co. Wall Street would love it and stock would soar, not to mention the fabulous kharma and improved work ethic among everyone in the co. And, I'm not a socialist, but when it's glaring at you, I think something should be done.

CEO of course didn't do that, never would consider it, actually and we still soared in popularity with Wall St.


And, it's easy to pay the $1TR debt - every person in America pays approx $3K....that's all, $3K.

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

Lynnie

Signed - $789B. Does anyone know what it looks like?

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

singinchicken

Except for those who are below the taxable income line, those who are unemployed, children, etc...

That 3000 bucks starts creeping up right out of the gate.

Then, take that great tax code into account and the Dems outright hatred of the evil rich. Bottom line is that you and I will probably not be affected, but the upper 5% of the taxpaying populous are going to get hammered silly and will stop spending their money or investing it into anything for the time being. Before any of this was voted on NYC was already talking about how many millions and millions they were going to lose in income tax revenue if top exec pay gets capped. Look at what's already happening in California.

Why do so many people have so much trouble seeing the big picture. Somebody needs to archive all these threads and pull them back out in 4-8 years to see where we ultimately wind up...

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Smiling JOe

Sen Matinez replied in a letter from my first letter, and stated that we need to do something, and that he fully supported the first Stimulus Act. He says we can't do nothing, though he thinks the current bill is about $30 Billion too fat. (like that is real money when we are talking about over a trillion $$$ in payback.)

Sen Nelson has failed to reply to my letters.

I wrote more letters today, asking for their opinion of how the stimulus package would actually stimulate the economy enough to pull America out of the slump, without breaking the backs of the future of this company. No reply yet.

Funny to me that gov't is so dang slow about everything, and that is how it was set up to operate -- lengthy, detailed discussion, so that no one makes jerk-reaction law. Only now, when they want to throw money to their friends, they push rapidly to have no discussion. Seriously, I spend more thought on less important personal matters than they will spend pretending to debate this bill.

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singinchicken

Straight from Obama's website, change.gov...

End the Practice of Writing Legislation Behind Closed Doors: As president, Barack Obama will restore the American people's trust in their government by making government more open and transparent. Obama will work to reform congressional rules to require all legislative sessions, including committee mark-ups and conference committees, to be conducted in public. By making these practices public, the American people will be able to hold their leaders accountable for wasteful spending and lawmakers won't be able to slip favors for lobbyists into bills at the last minute.

Oops...I guess he forgot this little promise as well as forgetting to tell Reid and Pelosi.

Or does it count at all any more since this is from the President Elect Obama's website and not the website of the President.

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traderx

You have to compute according to households. Minor children and the poor would have a tough time coughing up $3k. We have a little more than 100 million households in America. That equates to ~ $10K per household.

Our national debt is already over $14 trillion (with a T) so now we will have total debt of $15 trillion. That equates to $143k per household.

Feel better?

__________________
"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

heathernken

"Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to the bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalized, and the State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to Communism. " Karl Marx, 1867

scooterbug44

I haven't found anything that proves they AREN'T doing this (beside the wack-a-doo site you listed). All I am hearing from other sources are what compromises and changes are being batted around w/ quotes from Repubs and Dems alike.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

scooterbug44

I wondered about her math to get $3k since my share of the Iraq War is currently $1,700.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg

Lynnie

Yeah, yeah, I know.....and, everybody loves a wisea$$, too. I meant just for this proposed bill and yes I know 2/3 are childrens.

Let's try this one then: tax non-Americans who stay here more than 60 days/year.....I feel certain we can raise a great deal of $$ this way - both those who enter legally and those who do not.

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

Santiago

I'm with you 100% on the Gov.

Lynnie

Did Crist support it because there was pork for FL? I just have no idea what is in this bill~~~~~~

Anyone know/have a clear picture on this?????

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

traderx

Unfortunately, in order to pay off our debt, we first have to stop the bleeding and nobody has the appetite to do so. In fact, we are spending more money we don't have. And btw, paying off $143k per household is just the principal. Fold in interest carrying expenses and it is an interesting number.

Okay, here is the really depressing part: this is nothing compared to unfunded liabilities handed to us by the Congress. This primarily reflects social entitlement programs. I have seen the figure of over $50 billion over the next X years.

There is no fix to this mess. Our kids and grandkids will inherit it. I hope that they will understand what a revolution is all about and take this country back from the idiots in Washington.

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"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

Santiago

They're not doing anything to improve health care, they're just trying to control it. If that's what the people(idiots) want then fine, but it should be debated on its own merits. This is total bs and has not a thing to do with stimulus.

heathernken

Here is a link to a very simple explanation of Bretton Woods II, an informal arrangement whereby pegged exchange rates have led us to the pickle we are in. Don't know what to do to fix it though, but after reading this I have a much better understanding of how this situation of being the nation's consumer is by design, and not just OUR design.


Debt Man Walking

TooFarTampa

I think he supported it because state revenue is so low ... which I get, but he doesn't have to look so darned happy about it.

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Proud to practice indoctrination
at least when it comes to the GATOR NATION

Smiling JOe

At a glance that sounds a little off. You forgot to calculate the growing interest on that money, and you since gov't isn't good at eliminating gov't programs, once any new programs coming from this spending are started, they will be around forever, costing more money.

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BeachSiO2

A few thoughts from inside the beltway.

One, this bill was primarily negotiated by House Dems, Senate Dems and Senate Repubs last night. House Repubs are irrelevant.

Two, the Sentate staff is already working on a second stimulus package.

Three, the overall discretionary spending will top 3 trillion this year via the 09 approps, 10 approps, stimulus 1, Tarp 1, and stimulus 2/tarp 2. The Iraq comparison will become irrelevant. Then again, when do two wrongs make a right?

Four, Pelosi is not happy with education funding (it's too low for her tastes)

Five, the ratio of tax cuts to spending is currently 35% to 65%. Same as the senate compromise.

Six, no one involved in the Senate appropriation committee actually belives this will be the last injection. See pt two.

Seven, SJ is not going to get a well thought response on whether it will work.

Eight, this bill is loaded down with programmatic pork, but not many direct earmarks. You say tomatoe, we say tomatoh.

Nine, the votes in both houses may be identical as long as Pelosi doesn't try to change much. See pt 4.

And finally, this bill has been overpromised and will underperform (per Senate approps staffer).

singinchicken

What are you going to do with your extra 13 bucks?

Meltdown 101: Highlights of economic stimulus plan

I'm going to McDonalds! No...make that Steak and Shake.

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traderx

If we decide to pay our the debt over a ten year period at 6% interest, annual payments would exceed $2 trillion. With 105 million households, that equals $19,400 per household per year for ten years.

And these numbers presume that the deficit and all unfunded liabilties have been erased. Not likely.

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"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."

--Winston Churchill

Miss Kitty

To All My Valued Employees,
>
> There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of
> this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the
> economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges.
> However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to
> your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing
> political landscape in this country.
>
> However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help
> you decide what is in your best interests.
> First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against
> employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there
> is a back story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed
> by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside.
> You've seen my big home at last year's Christmas party. I'm sure; all
> these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about
> my life.
>
> However, what you don't see is the back story.
>
> I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300
> square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment
> was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into
> building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.
>
> My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent
> went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a
> defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I
> stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and
> partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work,
> discipline, and sacrifice.
>
> Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a
> modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy
> cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes.
> Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I
> was trolling through the Goodwill store extracting any clothing item
> that didn't look like it was birthed in the 70's. My friends
> refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did
> not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a
> vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these
> luxuries my friends supposedly had.
>
> So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check
> in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off"
> button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a
> weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I
> eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no
> rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this
> business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child.
> You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house,
> the Mercedes, the vacations... You never realize the back story and
> the sacrifices I've made.
>
> Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the
> right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people
> who didn't. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel
> entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of
> my life for.
>
> Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price I've paid is
> steep and not without wounds.
>
> Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you,
> is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me
> tell you why:
>
> I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay
> enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and
> use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment
> taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these
> taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him.
> Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes
> with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to
> the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my
> "stimulus" check was? Zero. Nada. Zilch.
>
> The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the
> guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over
> 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single
> mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her
> next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the
> economic stimulus of this country.
>
> The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd
> quit and you wouldn't work here.. I mean, why should you? That's nuts.
> Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree
> which is why your job is in jeopardy.
>
> Here is what many of you don't understand ... to stimulate the economy
> you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government
> mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of
> depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have
> spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic
> growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in
> the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.
>
> When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't
> defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to
> life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the
> heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must
> stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington
> believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American
> economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is
> the type of change you can keep.
>
> So where am I going with all this?
> It's quite simple.
>
> If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be
> swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then
> plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your
> child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem anymore.
>
> Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and
> retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the
> productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to
> provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.
>
> If you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will
> be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this
> country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its
> landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a
> beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about....
>
> Signed,
>
> Your boss

__________________
The mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open.

Bobskunk

Some here have committed that they would hold the chosen one to the same standards as previous mortals, so here's another test. Amazingly, in a few weeks there have been many, including the parade of retread tax cheats.

Obamagod claimed that there was no pork in this ridiculous spending bill. Stimulus? Hardly.

You can go ahead and eat crow now, or wait until you are force fed pork, but either way, I don't think you can digest everything that's coming your way.

JohnR? Any thoughts?

Beach Runner

From comments I heard today on CNN (a.k.a. former Obama worshippers) , there are many who say that if Obama sits back and lets Congress pass this horrible stimulus plan, his credibility as president is over. A four-year term.

How can we stop this bill from passing? I mean, I spend more time deciding on a nail polish color than has been spent on this.

Kitty, you are right. Many more jobs will be lost. This is why I have always voted Republican. The Democrats' tax and spend is proverbial. I realize that the Bush administration didn't fix things and messed up majorly by engaging us in a war that seemed right at the time, but later turned out to be based on flawed information. That's history. But FTLOG the Democrats are about to ice the cake and really mess us up with this hastily-put-together proposal.

I never dreamed that the stimulus attempt would be weighted down with pork. Somehow I had HOPE that Obama had more integrity than to let this happen. Maybe he is just not experienced enough to deal with the Washington crowd, and they are railroading him into what someone said is potentially the worst bill ever passed by the US Congress.

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Bobskunk

This is my third attempt to post this, so I have abbreviated my earlier attempts.

I was truly disheartened by the name calling that President Bush endured, and rather than avoid being on that level, I took the opportunity to be a demigouge (or worse) in my last post.

I am not happy with the events of the past few weeks, but then again, what President has ever had to face a more eventful first few weeks. Rather than respond with cogent thoughts, I resorted to petty sniping, which is pretty unproductive.

Again, my earlier attempts were more detailed, but I'll just apologize for adding to the lack of civil discource.

scooterbug44

Miss Kitty, it's an interesting email, but since I love my boss and know what sacrifices he makes on my and my coworkers behalf, I just can't lay all the blame for the current situation on the politicians and the tax rates. The boss you describe in that email wouldn't have made it through the initial job interview with me because he's a douchebag I wouldn't want to work for, (quibble about that word all you want, I don't have another appropriate word that will make it past the filters).

My boss isn't going to leave the country w/ his business if he doesn't get tax cuts (he's an American FTLOG), he isn't driving a Mercedes, taking lavish vacations, or living in a a McMansion .............. he's me in 10 years w/ a family to support, a modest middle class home, a business to run, clients who aren't paying bills, and is frustrated as sheet that even though he's holding up his part of the bargain by paying his bills, paying his mortgages, being fiscally conservative, arriving at work before me and finishing his work after me, the banks who don't want to loan him money because of their other dumbarse loans to people who couldn't afford them, the stock market and his assets have tanked, and the hard working American is getting screwed like you wouldn't believe........unless you're actually one of them.

He's not going to hang his employees out to dry, he's foregoing his paycheck to make sure MY payroll checks don't bounce, he's negotiating to get me a better health care plan so that I save money, and giving me benefits even though my hours have been slashed so I technically don't qualify for them - that's the reality of the REAL American business that is built on hard work, people, careers, and honesty - not the 'short term money as the only qualifier' sheet they're talking about in out of context quotations, the big box store crap, the idiocy that seems to be taught in MBA programs, and what is unfortunately being held up as an example in these discussions.

Across the country, MY people are paying their taxes, their mortgages, and worrying about their bills, their children, and their future. We don't have large houses, new cars, expensive jewelry, or designer clothes. We pay for things with a check, pay off our mortgages early, and don't buy it if we can't pay for it. My first job (those years of babysitting don't count) was agricultural labor that involved a machete because I was too young (according to the government) for other jobs . Mama Scooterbug gets getting yelled at by me because she works a post-retirement job (after retiring from her regular job after 25 years and actually raising 2 kids), but doesn't go to the restroom all day or eat because she has customers she doesn't want to keep waiting. Papa Scooterbug worked for the same company his father started with and retired after more than 35 years with them. I (used to) have a full time job and then ran my own company in my spare time. We have jobs before we're old enough to technically work, jobs, 2nd jobs, post-retirement jobs, and get grief for our crazy ideas about what is right and wrong - but if the rest of the country was as crazy or hardworking as us, this crisis wouldn't exist.

We'll pay our tax bills like we always have, we'll plan for our own retirement and futures like we always have, we'll be the foundations of our community like we always have, and we'll be the ones that continue to pay for the people making profits at everyone's expense and working the system.

That's our reality.

You want to point fingers, you want to exaggerate partisan bickering, and you want to continuously divide us, but we're still Americans who need a solution, and we are getting screwed because people can't see the forest for the trees, and they've got a voice, but nothing good to say.

There's a possible solution on the table - we're not saying it IS THE solution, we're saying it's A solution, and that if it puts us and our neighbors back to work and keeps our country moving it's okay with us. We don't like it all, we know someone who wrote a check for a campaign is getting rewarded, we know our kids and grandkids will pay for it when we're done paying for it, and we wish none of it was necessary, but we know that common sense, reality, and what we want have always taken very different paths - it was part of the coursework at the 'school of hard knocks' we all attended.

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"I hate to break it to you, but this year (and probably the next few) was going to suck even if Jesus himself was president. These problems were not created overnight and they aren't going away overnight." -Jdarg