Bobby J

This is a pretty cool breakdown about shoreline structures. Why we should care? It is a PDF file. Take the time to read it. Very educational from the Surfrider Foundation. I know there are several seawall threads but wanted this one to stick out for folks to gather some real tools to understand the impact.

http://www.surfrider.org/structures/...structures.pdf

OR

http://www.surfrider.org/structures

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peaboy

Thanks for the educational material here. This is very informative, have you sent this to the BCC?

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Bobby, I took time to read this article. What "new" points are you trying to make by referencing it? Perhaps the question should be... what solutions to our predicament in Walton County are you suggesting we should attempt? We both already know that there is no easy answer to that question.

I believe most everyone is basically burned out on the basic retaining wall issues and all the associated science, legalities and politics. As some of you already know, I certainly am. It doesn't mean that I don't still try to read up on new information that people have to share.

As you are apparently an avid local surfer, I can certainly understand your love for the water and the area.

The fact (based on your bio) that you're in the real estate business does lead me to ask you this question from a personal ethical point of view...


Would you accept the listing for a gulf front property that recently had a retaining wall built in front of it?


Thanks.

BeachSteelers

I diagree about burnout on this seawall issue. I think most people are truely fed up with several of the issues surrounding it. First being how can our County officials give temporary permits for the walls and tubes for private property protection and then allow, without oversite, them to be place on public property? Secondly how many thousands of private and public tax dollars are wasted on fighting for or against these structures that now reside on public lands? Thirdly, when the next big storm comes who's going to pay for the cleanup when tubes and walls are ripped apart by the sea? I guess the taxpayers due to the fact they are now on public lands! Who's to pay for maintaining them if they're allowed to stay? Wood even pressure treated will still rot out due to sun, wind, rain and sea exposure? As for the Tubes I think the same will happen too.
I don't believe it's fair for tax dollars to support private interests! Many of these houses were built to close to gulf to begin with. Many just steps away from a bluff that obviously was shaped by that large body of water outside their backdoors. No amount of amoring will protect any structure from a storm surge of 30 ft. with 15 ft. wave on top of it. It will undoubtable create havoc when it hits. The levees in N.O. are a prime example of man's failure to understands natural forces! Or is that just G.W.'s Fault? Proper setbacks are what's needed not walls and tubes. If most of these were on private property fine but they are not. And I object strongly to the misuse of our tax money that's wasted debating,studying and permitting such structures that are interest of private landowners not the public.
And I'm sure these's no shortage of agents to sell these properties here. Just be sure to disclose it. But heck, it's on public property so maintenence is not due to the homeowner right?

Bobby J

Good question. Sorry to hear you are burned out on the Sea wall issue. It is a difficult problem with no clear solution. So I tend to lean toward the only truth I have ever heard on the issue. Retreat. Not a popular solution to our predicament but probably the only one. I do not have an answer for how we could get to that point but I do know that all other solutions are just wasting more money and delaying the inevitable. I have compassion for the beachfront owner but my gut tells me if there was not soooo much money involved all the sea wall owners know the truth. Walls are bad for beaches...

To answer your question, it depends. Disclosure would be real important here. More importanly, I would need to have a relationship with the seller and feel comfortable with the situation. The buyer would have to know what they were getting into. BTW, I have gulf front listings but they have no Sea Walls.

I have no problem turning away a listing especially one that is not disclosing truths.

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BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Thanks.

Agreed.

I believe in this "concept". However implementation is the killer.

Retreat possiblities...
1. Owner electively moves their home back. This is only possible if there's enough room their lot. Perhaps financial aid to accomplish this could be a catalyst to facilitate the relocation / rebuilding.
2. As mentioned several times in past threads, gulf front property could be purchased and placed in the public domain. At approximately $60,000 per linear gulf front foot, it would "only" cost about 6 billion dollars for 20 miles. Can I come work for you and help broker that deal?

I don't believe anyone trying to sell gulf front property will be trying to hide the truth regarding their retaining wall (unless it was built by a "particular government official" ). It is more than apparent to me, that everyone is NOW aware of the risks of owning gulf front property in our area, if they weren't before. In my opinion (and at the moment), having a retaining wall is an asset to anyone looking to purchase gulf front property. I know and FULLY UNDERSTAND that this is not a popular idea with many.

With that said, and PLEASE don't take offense, it would appear that a real estate agent / broker involved in the sale of a gulf front property with a retaining wall, who benefits from commission, is also part of the picture... past and present.

In other words, just because it's legal to sell such property doesn't make it right (or does it?) from an ecological point of view? Just because it is legal for me to build a retaining wall in front of my property doesn't mean it was necessarily the best long term solution, ecologically. I admit that. BUT it was my only choice considering the situation as it is TODAY (as I've stated many times in the past).

Bobby, I'm really not directing all this at you, in particular. Every issue, such as this, has many facets.

The county is part of the problem for approving gulf front development too close to the water way back when. Also the county benefited by levying and accepting property taxes, short term rental sales tax, etc. TDC, a county agency, also benefits from from short term rental sales tax. By the way, part of the sand renourishment is funded with these funds.

The state is part of the problem for allowing the county to approve such development. Yet the state has benefited from all the short term rental sales tax of these properties for all these years. The state also benefits from the deed transfer tax (or whatever it's called) which is proportional to the "value" of the property.

The federal government is also part of the problem for allowing the state to allow the county to approve such development.

Etc., etc., etc.

This doesn't begin to take into account all the economic trickle down benefits to the county, state and federal tax coffers that were "started" by those who built on the gulf long before anyone really understood the problems that would occur 50 years later regarding erosion. We all understood wind and waves, but not erosion. Building codes changed to resist wind and water damage...erosion was another thing.



Let's not cast all blame on those who happen to own gulf front property at the moment. You, being in real estate, fully understand the concept of disclosure. Yet when I bought in a few years ago, I was totally unaware of the potential erosion issue that we face today. Nobody "disclosed these truths" to me.

Many say, "That's a risk you took when you purchased." Perhaps. But I'm not asking the government to pay for my retaining wall and lost property (sand) although their hands are not clean regarding the current situation. I can only do what's within my power to protect my property after the fact.

The music in the game of "beach erosion muscial chairs" stopped when Hurricane Dennis hit. I just happened to be the one who owned our unit at that time. I'm the one who has to scramble.

John R

BMBV, i think those who are tired of the subject are those with the potential to lose the most, the property owners. those who will not tire are those who think the wrong is greater than dollar amounts. a painful reality for some.

your following statement:
Yet when I bought in a few years ago, I was totally unaware of the potential erosion issue that we face today. Nobody "disclosed these truths" to me.

i find this hard to swallow. you are too smart to not have researched everything and anything about your property. also, as i have stated before, anyone who buys on the beach cannot be ignorant enough to not realize they are building on a moving medium, and indeed are taking a gamble. the 'nobody told me' argument literally doesn't hold water.

jr

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tuck

BMBV I have seen your educated and great responses on this issue for the past 6 months or so and commend you for your input, but this issue is one that we can not get tired of. Maybe that was the intent of the County Official that built the walls in the first place, build them, hide from the fight, and wait long enough for everyone to tire out and let it die.

The people of this community can and will not allow this to happen. While I feel for you and other beach front owners, the fact remains all of you know what you are living on, an eroding shoreline that has a backyard that is not owned by you. The seawalls are a detriment to this area and the facts are positive to this. The BCC, the State, and the Feds all should be ashamed for allowing this but the beach front owners who claim they did not know they were doing anything wrong should be the real ones ashamed.

My question to you is, Who is going to pick up all the wood with nails and other hazards that are on our beaches today? Last year it was a group of surfers that went up and down the beaches and in and out of the water picking up the objects, were any home owners doing the same?

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Perhaps.

I guess I should have been referring only to myself instead of "most everyone" concerning burnout. My bad. But it was just a deduction based on the myriad of posts and associated responses on the myriad of threads regarding retaining walls, seawalls, geotubes, dark sand, etc. After a while, it got old and it got repetitive. If you haven't noticed, many of these once very active threads are pretty much dead.

I am NOT discounting the subject's importance nor am I attaching "dollar amounts" as a qualifier.


John, here's what I did know at the time I bought our property. There are hurricanes. There was OPAL. There was ANDREW. I knew there was a distinct possibility of being blown down due to a hurricane. I paid for insurance to cover that risk. I allocated funds for the deductible. The wind risk was therefore addressed.

The other well known risk is flood. Since our property is over 26 feet in elevation, I felt that we were fairly well protected from storm surge. I did some homework on storm surge elevations and additional wave heights. After we bought, I even considered dropping flood coverage because of the elevation. It was only after I was told that if our property was undermined, that only flood insurance would cover that. Of course, I elected to maintain flood coverage. I figured it would take at least 3 Ivans to truly threaten us from an erosion point (Ivan only eroded 1 to 2 feet past Opal). Dennis took out another 20 to 25 feet past that!

Back in 2002, I wasn't even aware that a retaining wall was a legal possibility (assumed we would just build back at some point in time). In 2004/2005, after Ivan, we were told we would qualify to protect our structure via retaining wall and retained an engineer to design one. I admit I had my ecological and aesthetic hesitations. Everyone else was for it. But I voted for it in the end. It was going to be installed at the end of 2005. The design and application was already turned in to DEP. Again all this was BEFORE Dennis hit.

Hurricane Dennis (summer of 2005) obviously resulted in not just us needing a wall, but many properties up and down the beach including our immediate neighbors as well.


MY POINT: No, I personally was not fully aware of what was in store. But didn't I say that already? Again, nobody was. If all of us gulf front owners were aware, as you imply, you would have seen a lot more for sale signs after Hurrincane Ivan hit us but before Hurricane Dennis had a chance to wreak havoc on our beach. We all saw what Ivan did so we "thought" we had some idea of the situation. Remember, just about anything would have sold at top price before Dennis, pure and simple.


Everything is crystal clear when you have hindsight (regarding the erosion). I truly thought it first would be some monster hurricane wind or some huge wave that would destroy us and force us to rebuild because we were close to the water... but certainly not erosion.



Remember, Bobby J started the thread with a reference to a retaining wall article. Then I gave my "burned out" response since I felt retaining walls were discussed every which way but loose. That's when I decided to ask him the real estate "ethics" question. He responds back he would consider a gulf front sale with a retaining wall (more or less) assuming "The buyer would have to know what they were getting into." Then I said (more or less) that I wasn't afforded that opportunity. Then you (more or less) insinuate that I'm not being straight and that I should have known.


You're giving me way too much credit. I just hope you're not punishing me for it.



You're right (in hindsight and with the knowledge at hand). JR, as much as it pains me to say this, there are many people a lot more intelligent than me . They also own gulf front. They didn't sell when they could have received top dollar for their property in 2005. Also, like me, they bought in to begin with, not fully expecting today's events.

If we all knew everything, disclosures would not be needed. That was my point with my response to Bobby J since he sells real estate. He was the one bringing up the idea of the importance of "disclosure" to a perspective buyer. I was simply building on that idea. Many times disclosures reveal things that are obvious with a simple inspection. Sometimes they reveal things not so obvious such as easement litigation. Sometimes they don't reveal things that maybe they should. Radon gas and mold are 2 prime examples of "disclosure evolution" that were not really considered years back. By the way, I won't be suing the previous owner and real estate agent / broker for non-disclosure because it was my fault for being "ignorant enough"! . Enough about disclosure.

If I had sold back in 2005 after Ivan, then you would be having this dialogue with the new owner instead of me. If I never bought to begin with, you would be having this dialogue with the previous owner.....

Which brings me to this question: You never really addressed the heart of my previous post...that is do you feel that the county, state and feds should bare any of the responsibility for allowing these structures to have been built so close in the first place and benefitting from the tax base?

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Most of your points have already been discussed in other threads. Admittedly I peeked and didn't see your name in the lively "Seawalls" thread below (take a look if you haven't already)...

Seawalls

There are more:

Allow private seawall on a public beach?

SEAWALLS - Audio/Photo Presentation (biased "journalism")

Study on Geotubes in Texas

Seawalls, Geo-tubes, Beach Scraping and Beach Nourishment. What is the answer?

Geotube installation - Santa Rosa Beach

Re: beach restoration update



Assuming you're addressing me...let me set the record straight.

I don't have a personal interest in the walls built on public property. That takes care of your points 1 and 2 if they were directed to me. I am not envious of the property owners nor the county commissioners regarding this situation.

Your 3rd point... I don't deny there will be wall failures out there. I don't deny there will be debris when it happens. I personally have done all I can to prevent this from happening with our wall. If you're worried about debris from wall failures, can you imagine what a mess there will be if entire condo complexes and homes are washed into the gulf? Just a thought.

Tax dollars... No tax dollars have supported our wall or sand, period. I agree owners should take full responsibility for cleaning and debris from failed walls and for any maintenance required.

You state "No amount of amoring will protect any structure from a storm surge of 30 ft. with 15 ft. wave on top of it." I'll grant you that, IF it were to happen. That's not what we're defending against. By the way, do you know what the highest storm surge in recorded history is for South Walton?

Here's some similar logic... no building code will protect a structure from an F5 tornado.

Regarding "G.W." and "no shortage of agents to sell these properties here" and New Orleans, perhaps you should start other threads.


I "feeeel" the fire in your post. If it makes you feel better, go for it. I do understand where you're coming from. Heck, I got hot several times and it felt good to get it out.

Hopefully you can try to understand where I and many others (although not vocal here on SoWal) are coming from.

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Thanks.

Again, I should have been speaking for myself as I stated in a previous post.

OK, I'm a bit confused here. Regarding walls on public property (another thread BTW) I thought they were talking about the homes on the west end of Montgomery Street with GeoTubes. The "County Official" that you refer to, doesn't install these (as far as I know). However there may be more wood walls on public property where he did. I'm not sure.

Are you talking about building walls on public property or walls in general? I assume it's about building private walls on public beaches.

This has already been discussed at length and is obviously not a simple situation. It won't be resolved here.

By the way, the "backyard" that you refer to IS legally owned by our association as is all the properties in our general area. This is in contrast to the situation on Montgomery Street. Technically and legally speaking (from what I understand and please correct me if I'm wrong), Blue Mountain Beach is private for the most part. But that's a whole different issue. I'm sure someone's hair is standing straight up on their neck right now.

Food for Thought: If the general public treats the gulf front owners located at Montgomery Street with such disdain, would it be unreasonable for other gulf front property owners who own to the waterline to treat the general public the same way when the public uses "their property"?

I'm not looking for an answer, PLEASE. Just think about it. I know this will only generate a heated debate where nobody wins. Life is about compromise (so is marriage but I'm still working on that part ).

Again I think you're referring to the Montgomery Street situation. When I first heard about this, I questioned the thread starter (a few months ago)about how far they were past their property lines. I didn't hear back. I assumed (and hoped) it was just a foot or two...an understandable mistake. But it seems to be much worse than that.

Now that I think about it, I remember making a comment on one of the old threads regarding GeoTubes (which I believe were used here). That is, the higher you have to stack the tubes, the further out on the beach one has to go with the base (pyramid effect). GeoTubes are a "feel good" solution because it's made from fabric and sand and therefore gves the appearance that it does not "intrude" upon the beach system as much as traditional sheet pile.

This might explain why they had to go so far out into the beach. Again, in my opinion, they should have gone with a sheet type of retaining wall which results in minimal disruption beyond the wall (besides possible increased erosion which is everyone's concern including mine).

This from an engineering report from PBS&J for Florida DEP (I posted this way back when)....
"Qualitative evidence confirms the company/product claim that the ProTecTube III system is not designed to protect against hurricanes and did not abate erosion caused by Hurricane Ivan. An aerial photograph from the FDEP shows a similar erosional pattern of the adjacent, un-protected beaches"

BTW, these homes have been here since the 1950s (I believe). I won't sit and judge their "survival" situation from the luxury of my comfortable office chair. I've got my own situation to deal with.

I'd take your concern for this public property issue to the following threads...

Are you referring to some walkovers that were damaged by the storm the past week when you say "today"? I'm not sure what you're really asking here. The county did most of the cleaning last year.

Thanks to all the surfers for helping out, sincerely. Rememeber they were probably pulling out all kinds of stuff... private walkovers, retaining walls and PUBLIC walkovers. Did you happen to see any county commissioners swimming in and out picking up all that TREX used in public walkovers? By the way, does TREX float?

And, yes, I have picked up trash in front of our property. Next time, I'll bring my snorkel gear. Heck, since I heard some of the neighbors' walkovers were damaged this past week and sitting next to our property, I may have to pick up crap on my next visit!

Luckily, Aaron Lewis, of Construction and Such did a fantastic job of installing our walkover this year. All the forward posts were installed several feet down. No damage this time. He definitely earned this plug. Sorry, I digress.

Bobby J

BMVB,

You bring up alot of good points. Some I agree and some I do not. I will read over this again and respond at a later date. Surfed hard today and so tired! I was in the water at Blue Mountain from 8am to 3pm....

I sure hate to see all that construction debris out there. Yes TREX floats...

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Bob

BMVB, You win the award for most words per post, but the verbosity is due to your argument being one you cannot defend.

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

OK

John R

BMBV, like Bobby, I'd like a little time to respond to your post. I'm in the middle of a move and can't give a response the time or thought it deserves. A quick note, yes, as you pointed out in a post above, there have been many threads on the subject, and it is work keeping up. It would be nice if they could be merged, or sorted into walls, dunes, and tubes categories(although tubes and dunes cross paths a lot)

jr

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BeachSteelers

I guess I've been told were to go BMBV. Since I don't own beachfront nor sell it I guess I should thread elsewhere.

Beach Bimmer

It IS an interesting topic even for some of us not directly involved, as it speaks to learning from the past and designing better for the future along our coasts.

In short, keep up the dialogue, even if it's challenging at times, as many can benefit from the education. The good Lord ain't makin' no more beachfront in Florida...

Smiling JOe

The obvious facts do not need to be disclosed. This is no different than buying river front or mountain top property.

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BlueMtnBeachVagrant

What the heck do you mean by "Since I don't own beachfront nor sell it I guess I should thread elsewhere."?

I think you misunderstood me.

Please don't leave. I thought we were having fun!

First I listed the other related threads in my response to you in order to give you an indication that this subject has been discussed quite throuroughly because it appeared from your post that maybe you weren't aware of all the previous threads or posts. Many people spent much time entering their thoughts, observations, pictures, facts and prejudices. That's why I checked to see if your name appeared on the Seawalls thread... nothing more...nothing less. I guess there's no harm being repetitive if you want to reopen the debate from the beginning.

Second, regarding my suggestion to start other threads, it appeared you were throwing out all kinds of other stuff that deserved it's own thread such as "G.W." (I assume you mean our President), "N.O." and "no shortage of agents".

I'm not a bad guy - just one that that won't succomb to "popular opinion".

I took the time to genuinely respond to your "post" piece by piece.

The first line in your first post....
"I disagree about burnout on this seawall issue."

Now please show everyone you really mean this by sharing with us more than a one line reply.

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

I sincerely believe ALL of "us" have seen the errors of "our" ways regarding coastal development. If it were 1950 and we knew what we know now, I'm sure that things on the coast would be developed differently. But today is today and we're all dealing with past mistakes... not just here in South Walton but just about every coastline in America.

I'm not sure how much education can be derived from these threads but as I told BeachSteelers, sometimes it just feels good to share thoughts.

I remember someone telling me that I should spend more time in the "Lounge" here - more fun I guess.
But if I did....
1. I'd be spending 25 hours per day on this damn computer. Yea, I know, if I shorten my posts and I'd reduce it to 24 hours per day
2. Everyone from the lounge would flee because I'm so contrarily opinionated

reepicheep

Howdo BMBV, I wouldn't discount the educational merit. I've learned a great deal on the subject--Regarding the science, politic and community perspective of South Walton dune restoration, this thread holds data... amidst the emotion of course.

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Interesting. I live directly on the Chattahoochee in Atlanta. Erosion, here, is not a issue. I have a worse case idea of the flood possibility except if terrorists blow up the damn dam upstream. Then what the hell, the whole city's in trouble.

Interestingly, the highest I've seen the river is when Hurricane Opal came through Atlanta. That should have been an omen for me, I guess.

Even in the unlikelyhood that it did flood, a few hundred dollars of flood insurance (which I don't have by the way), would cover me.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, the land that my house sits on would most likely still be here. I wouldn't have to come up with an additional $2000 per linear foot (as we did for the retaining wall and sand at the beach) to basically restore and stabilize the land so that the house could be repaired. By the way, that $2000/foot amount in Florida was totally UNINSURABLE in case some of you didn't know....completely out of pocket.

Bottom line, no disclosure was necessary for my river property in my opinion.

re: Mountain top
Hmmm...
Isn't there some passage in the bible about better to build on rock than sand? I have no idea why I said that. Are you implying landslides should be disclosed? Never mind.


Again, I was just more or less following Bobby J's lead about "disclosure" to his clients.

Point is, you can't disclose something if you don't know there's a problem.

Who knew we'd have TEN times the erosion from Dennis than we did from Ivan using Opal as a baseline?

Let me simply summarize this "disclosure" stuff here...
1. I asked BobbyJ if he had any problem with selling (and profitting from) gulf front property.
2. BobbyJ responded by saying if he were to sell a gulf front property, disclosure was very important...that the buyer should know what they're getting in to.
3. I mentioned that the erosion issue was not "disclosed" to me when I bought my gulf front property.
4. JR says he can't believe that I didn't research it or know. He implies that basically unless one is "ignorant enough" one should have known.

Here's the result... IF I should have known about the erosion problem (remember... about 10 times greater from just one storm!), then it would be reasonable for the previous owner to have known it was a real possibility as well (also the real estate "professionals" involved). If they did know, then they certainly should have (at least ethically) disclosed that "likelyhood" especially in hindsight.

I'm not looking for any stinkin' disclosure. JR is right. I do my own research and sure as hell wouldn't totally depend on a so-called "home inspector" or a disclosure statement.

I hope I've more than adequately proved my point that I WAS TOTALLY UNAWARE of the erosional devastation that could occur from just one relatively weak hurricane. I don't think I was the only one.

Was "I" aware of erosion in general? Of course "I" was!! I'm speaking for me. I can't speak for other gulf front owners as far as what they actually knew. One of the reasons I purchased our property was because we do have room to "retreat". Problem is, we would have gotten VERY LITTLE money from the insurance because the building was only partially damaged. Even if we did retreat, we're only one building. It was much cheaper to build the retaining wall and repair the building damage while minimizing "down-time". Retreat is still a possibility but not now.

Should we start a disclosure thread?

SJ, all of this now leads me to ask you a serious multiple choice question.

If you were to sell a gulf front property that has been fully "restored" with no evidence of erosion, would you fully disclose to the buyer that the bluff eroded 20 feet from just one hurricane while you were standing in front of the owner?
1. yes
2. no
3. maybe
4. none of your business
5. depends on your definition of "fully" and "fully"

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Months ago I agreed that I would try to keep my emotion at bay. I even went underground for a while as I ran out of things to say...YEP!. We did have some interesting exchanges. So I'll just be long winded instead .

Those that post a one-line criticism usually have their minds completely made up regardless of the circumstances. Dialogue is not an option for them. I've come to expect it now and then and try not to take it personally.

The only thing worse than owning a retaining wall in South Walton (in the eyes of some) is shooting Bambi in front of their little girl.

Thanks for the words!

John R

I'll give it a go.

no. caveat emptor. the plats were made long before we got here, and have been changed by those who had the money to do so. when the original land was sold, i doubt the use was for luxury(or in some cases, not so luxury) residential use. i view it as a vanity thing. i have more money than you, so i'm going to live closer to the water than you. i have seen this all my life, growing up in resort areas near the water. we never lived on the beach, didn't have enough money to. but we didn't have the same upkeep that those who did live there did.

erosion cycles are a fact of life, and anyone who's lived at or by the beach is aware of this. we live in hurricane alley, and one who chooses to live here does so willingly and knows the potential for loss. there wouldn't be a hurricane shutter industry otherwise. beach owners know they will need to repaint, replace, more often, and armor themselves stronger than those of us who live further inland. this is a fact.

as i've stated before, we are all gambling that we won't be the one's affected. "...it's going to head towards orange beach..."etc. so, i agree with you that you(as a class) must protect your investment, but not not at the expense of my money or our environment. which would include, using the wrong color sand, takes of habitat, encroachment of public lands, floating septic, light pollution, etc, and walls that will increase the erosion of the beaches.

so, maybe an ordinance should be that anyone who buys beachfront must build at the backmost part of the property and erect a wall above ground, half the total height of the structure to protect it.

silly huh? see below. if we were in another area of the country, we'd be discussing this moron and his avalanche/boulder fence...



as always, looking forward to lively discourse.

jr

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Smiling JOe

...and a happy Saturday morning to you, too, BMBV. Let me tell you now. If you live on the River, you may one day lose your home. Flood insurance means covers nothing if you don't have it. Just because you have not seen the River rise to a greater level than the time when Opal hit, doesn't mean diddly squat. Ask alll the people in Western NC and Eastern TN what happened when Hurricane Ivan swept through. Ever hear of the 100 year flood? Many people who never had standing water in their yards, are now without homes. I recall a time back in the late 80's or early 90's when a few people whom I know lost their homes which also sat on the Chattahoochee River. Erosion along slow moving rivers may not be seen until the mother storms hit. When that happens, erosion will hit you faster than you can blink an eye. For you to say it isn't possible, is about as short sighted as you thinking sand will not be able to erode from your yard. Have you not seen the wind blow sand down the beach. Helloooo.

To your mulitple choice question. It is an extremely rare occasion when the buyers and sellers are in the same time and place. So your scenerio would never occur in the first place. Secondly, when I take a listing, I let the sellers know up front that I must disclose any material fact that could affect the sale of their property. In this case, that would be included in simple disclosure. If you are looking for an agent who will not disclose such a thing, good luck. I don't know of any who are willing to lose that battle in a lawsuit.

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reepicheep

BMBV, i can appreciate your sporting demeanor in the matter, it does stimulate needed info. In life we find that it takes energy to overcome obstacles and open doors. In a perfect world that energy comes from flowing water or a beaming sun. In reality that energy also and often comes from good ol' fashion friction.

reepicheep

JOE- I was in St. Augustine about a year ago and had the fortune of stumbling across an amazing animation of their 'naturally' changing coastline over the past 150 years. The best description would be: imagine a snake navigating a wobbly, slick surface. 150' in 30 years was the median ebb & flow of the line. Granted this area was near an inlet and along a much harsher sea but the fact remains: Nature doesn't wear the same outfit for long and there's not an iota we can do about it. have a great day and thnx for all the information

Smiling JOe

I almost forgot, if I knew that the seller had built the seawall on public property instead of his own property, you bet your @ss that I would disclose it if I actually accepted the listing. I don't accept every listing that crosses my desk.

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BlueMtnBeachVagrant

With all due respect, I think you're missing the point I was making. The LAND under my home will not disappear in a flood even though yes I'll concede there is some finite possibility. If we do have the "mother of all storms" hit us, your prediction may come true regarding my home on the river.

However Dennis was NOT the "mother of all storms". Will you at least acknowledge that? Also will you at least acknowledge my statement that in terms of erosion, Dennis was TEN times worse than Ivan?

If you fear the "mother of all storms" might hit me in GA what about coastal FL? Why do you hang around?

SJ, I'm not an idiot (OK...I can at least reason things out) . Sometimes I feel we're forgetting what we're discussing. It was just a sidestreet of BobbyJ's dialogue where he mentioned something about selling gulf front property only with PROPER DISCLOSURE. AGAIN...if you're insinuating that I should have known that a Dennis would cause 20 feet of erosion, you are wrong, plain and simple. Am I "ignorant" for not knowing this? Perhaps. But I'm more informed than the average bear. Disclosures are suppose to be aimed at everone.

My point is, AGAIN, that I did not know. The seller did not know, The agent did not know. Therefore it was not disclosed. Don't read too much more into it.

The rest of your logic is again "crystal clear with hindsight" regarding the beach.

So based on your "mother of all disaster" scenarios we should all move to...
Kansas? No, tornadoes
California? No, earthquakes
New Orleans? No
New York? No, terrorists
South Georgia? No, floods
Colorado? No, landslides
Arizona? No, probably run out of water
Florida? No, hurricanes, tsunamis, west nile virus, tourists, developers

What the hell are any of us doing in Florida?

So your answer is A.

Good choice. Maybe bad for business, but good choice.

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Good choice again, otherwise you'd lose your @ss in a lawsuit if you knew and didn't disclose it.

Smiling JOe

While I do have fears, none of them involves the Chat River taking away your home. You want me to acknowledge that Dennis wasn't a big storm. Okay. It wasn't. Nor did it hit SoWal. Ivan took care of carrying away much sand, setting up the other storms in 05 to be even more devistating as for erosion. Add to that, the fact that several of the storms passed through at high tide, and you get massive, continuous erosion. Happy now?

The day you see me put business before life, please go ahead and shoot me. I would rather do the right thing, than have a "good" (I guess that means greedy and profitable) business anyday.

In summary, I think we should think beyond the recent past (100years) to educate ourselves. Remember, one time, humans were not on the Earth, and one day in the future, we will return to that state. I live wherever I go. I have learned to adapt to some degree, in each place I go, never having to fear loss of such things as material possessions. I can live in the woods just fine. If SoWal was wiped out by a storm, I would move on. Maybe that means stay here and move on with life, or maybe that means pack up ship and seek life elsewhere. I will deal with that when the time comes. In the mean time, here I am.

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Smiling JOe

One other point, if a seller isn't willing to be truthful, I will absolutely refuse to do business with them. If they won't be truthful to the buyers, why would I expect them to be truthful with me? If they were not truthful to me and I was unaware of something which needed to be disclosed due to the sellers' lies, I would probably not be liable (even though I would have some legal fees), however, I would rather avoid that situation altogether by not taking on that potential customer.

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Bobby J

Bmbv,

I have responded and deleted my comments to you three times. I can not attack your position but want to. I feel like you are operating out of alot of fear. I would probably be doing the same thing if I was in your situation.

The dilema you have brought forth to me is, "Would I take a listing with a Seawall"? Originally I thought with all the disclosures in place I would but now I do not know if I would. I have enough of my own headaches without taken on other peoples problems. Plus, I have some ethical issues here. Anyway, I am sorry you are in the situation you are in with the sea walls. I hope it all works out for you. Anyway, Brody calls!

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www.beachpropertiesofflorida.com
www.bobbyjblog.com

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

First hurricanes...

Then all the prejudices regarding protecting your property...

And now, even if I WAS in FEAR (which I'm not - thanks for caring), I won't be able to find a real estate agent to sell my property in this hot real estate market because they have their own headaches.

It's just keeps getting tougher and tougher to be a gulf front property owner.

From your earlier post...
Are you going to disclose the erosional rate that occured during Dennis?

Smiling JOe

I am sure there are plenty of agents who don't care about no stinkin' seawalls, so you should have plenty of agents from whom to choose as your listing agent. Also, just because they take your listing, that doesn't mean that they don't care about the beaches.

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Bobby J

You will have no problems getting really good agents to take your property. I am one of many agents. I am also many other things besides a real estate agent. My belief about Sea walls comes from a group I belong to call Surfrider. Surfrider Foundation is a non-profit environmental organization dedicated to the protection and enjoyment of the world's oceans, waves and beaches for all people, through conservation, activism, research and education. Surfrider has a history of information regarding Sea Walls. They have followed them and researched them for years. They are simply not good. I understand your concern about your property. This is a very tough place to be. It still does not change the documented research on Sea Walls. Period. A national journalist recently stated SoWAl armored thier beaches like a third world country. We operated and permitted in total chaos and fear.

I ran into a guy recently that was letting his washer machine water run into a local canal. He feels that because he lets it out on his land it is ok and not anyones business. We all know the water is bad for the canals and the environment. This sea wall dilema reminds me of this guy. The problem of the washer machine water in the canals is well documented just like Sea Walls. While the sea wall on your property may not be a "problem" on your property what about the various types of erosion it causes on "our" beaches? I also would like to be clear on something: I feel for your situation and am trying to better understand what we all should do.

I also understand that washer water in the canal does not threaten anyones home as erosion does but I just wanted to note the comparison.

The fear comment comes from my belief that we all have fears about our beaches, our land, and our finances because of the current real estate climate. You have quite an investment if you own property on the beach. You would have to have fears

Am I going to disclose the erosional rate? "It comes up a long time before I have to disclose it"

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BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Absolutely FAIR and VALID! Thanks.

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Bobby....understood. I never said "Sea Walls" are GOOD. They were not installed in anticipation of Dennis because we think they are "GOOD". They were installed after Dennis out of a need to protect. Let's leave that aspect out of all this.

Can't resist.... see the following for what I feel about "national journalists" and their objective articles.

By the way, we personally had one of our best rental seasons with repeat bookings for next year. Guess people like 3rd world countries.


Sorry Bobby, I think this is by far your weakest "argument"...your comparing intentional active pollution to my retaining wall. I see your point but it's very weak none the less.

POLLUTION = ILLEGAL
RETAINING WALL = NOT ILLEGAL

BTW, did you turn him in to DEP or start a thread on this issue?

Speaking of disclosure...are you going to disclose that many of the beaches that you describe as "our beaches" in our area are actually private?

If you truly feel for our situation, I'm not sure you would have started this thread in the first place. That is, as I've said before, this retaining wall subject has been discussed so much that many of us could have joined the "BLUE MAN GROUP" and not have to wear make-up. Your rehashing of the same "old stuff" simply, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, was aimed at placing many gulf front owners in a less than favorable light to say the least, again. But that's your choice and this is my opinion.

I guess that means since it probably automatically comes up in the course of conversation, that you don't have to disclose it in writing? You're a little elusive here for my feeble mind.



Bobby, I don't have any problems with who you are or your idealisms... not that you need my "approval". Idealisms are the root force behind change...not always good BTW.

Just grant me the fact that anyone who completely denies any complicity with the retaining wall issues is probably not being forthcoming....

I've said it before and I'll say it again, those early beach "pioneers" that simply built their homes here 50 or 60 years ago did so for the love of the beach...not because they wished any harm to it. There was NOTHING down here then. Their actions eventually lead to the development of "our area" where MANY PEOPLE CURRENTLY BENEFIT ECONOMICALLY from it's existence INCLUDING real estate agents, restaurant owners, developers, contractors, government tax base, etc, etc, etc.

Simply, I believe you and your peers fall into that category as well (as if you couldn't already sense my beliefs ).

Were errors made in hindsight? Certainly. To expect us to standby and do nothing in the meantime because of one's idealisms is simply idealistic and not realistic.

Smiling JOe

Wrong about not having to disclose it. As of 2006, the written CCCL Disclosure needs to be included in every contract for property which falls in that area on the maps.

I am anxious to hear what errors you now know in hindsight about seawalls that you didn't know prior to installing them.

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Bob

BMBV," I, me, my," seem to be your favorite words. OK?

Bobby J

I agree with some of this. I guess I hope that we can do things different here along 30A. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe everyone should be allowed to armour up. We can have one giant pool out there. It just seems that if we know we are in error wouldn't we want to do something different. I do not think that anyone expected you all to standby and do nothing... It just seems what you all did will not work or even last for that matter. So do we keep on making errors and repeating history? I will keep on trudging into the water and cleaning up debris. I hope you will too.

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www.beachpropertiesofflorida.com
www.bobbyjblog.com

Bobby J

BTW,
I am heading to the lounge... Tell your people they are safe.

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www.beachpropertiesofflorida.com
www.bobbyjblog.com

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Ok

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

SJ, regarding errors made in hindsight, I was referring to the development along the coast (not necessarily the retaining walls)...but see the ambiguity of my statement. Thanks for pointing it out.

Smiling JOe

Thanks for clarifying your statement.

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goodwitch58

Bobby J and Smilin Jo,

hang in there. There are many of us who share your feelings and opinions.

It is a huge problem that has been badly handled by our local government --