Somebody calls the police for "breach of the peace" and Pandora's gets shut down....Coconut Radio was on break and the manager gets hauled off to jail.....Let us just say that first of all, Coconut Radio consists of violin and acoustic guitar and volumes were at "acoustic" levels.....The restaurant was doing a brisk business, and the crowd evaporated quickly after the band was shut down, resulting in a large loss of business and revenue for the staff, and the band. When we are all trying to hold onto what we can in this current economic climate, it is vexing to have one or two individuals dictate the paycheck for other hardworking people. Is this the world we have to live in? Why in the world would anyone wish a business to fail right now? These self righteous individuals need to see outside their own back doors and into the world around them. I hope they don't succeed in killing the goose that laid the golden egg....

A bunch of us arrived at Pandora's after leaving the soiree on Grayton Beach. Noticed people leaving all at once and once we went in we were told what had occured. Thanks for the full explanation. I do not understand a manager or owner being hauled off to jail for this. Then again, I can't understand building a house backing up to a bar/restaurant and trying to adjust the surroundings to please myself.

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The mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open.

I don't understand being jailed for this. WTF! People get tickets every day and don't go to jail. I'll bet our motorcycle was louder than their music. This is just wrong!

Sheriff?????

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Get Outdoors!

You know something, it just makes me so mad I see red. Life is to short for people to go around so cranky. SO this is for you who ever you are that called the police,

1, join the party, who knows you might meet "a" firend, as from the sound of things you don't have any.
2, music is good for the soul, if you could hear it from your house you should have called friends over for your own party, free intertainment.
3 if your that crabby, MOVE
4 Wal-Mart sells ear plugs,
5 My wife works for a retirement home, they are all quite by 8 pm, should we find you a room?
6 Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in Broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming WOW - WHAT A RIDE
7 Find the Loin he needed a heart too!

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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in Broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming WOW - WHAT A RIDE

IMO, it is so much easier and more pleasant to live on this earth ( green or not) if one is more tolerant of other folks. I' never heard of music killing anyone and I've lived a long time and enjoyed most of it, and certainly enjoy Pandoras fine steaks and music any time I'm down there. What I'm saying is, whoever complained, next "Sady" put on your fine clothes, go out and enjoy some good food, good music and see if you feel better about the world out side yours.

exactly.

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When you want to Dance ~ Put on your RED Pants!

WTF? I thought noise ordinance in Grayton didn't start until 10pm anyway?

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I fear that beyond the obvious and immediate effects, the noise ordinance enforcement will give SoWal a bad reputation in general. Are we going to be known as killjoys? People go on vacation to relax and have fun. If music is a bother at 9:30, maybe Del Boca Vista has a unit for you next to the shuffleboard court.

I was ther last night and left before the excitement, but the band was not loud....at all!!! Go figure...the night it is toned down is when someone goes to jail.

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"The only thing worse than being stood up is dating." NoHall

"If you are going to be stupid, you better be tough".
Sunspotbaby

Hey, I like ShuffleBoard.

Maybe Walton County would like for no one to make any noise. No cash registers ringing, no credit card modems sounding, no music, no cars, no people. This place would dry up overnight, and the County coffers would be making a very hollow sound.

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I say we go door to door and find the soul that called, and help move them out of town. We don't need ya hear, you are hurting out pocket book.

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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in Broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming WOW - WHAT A RIDE

Some do not like loud music, some do not like Wal mart and drive thru windows. Seems like everyone has an opinion or preference that affects the cash registers of others.

I would imagine that there is quite a bit more to the story than just loud music and an immediate arrest. I am sure it will make it to the Sun before the week is out.

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It was always my understanding that the noise ordinance did not start until 11:00, I mean come on, 9:30 on a saturday night??? God forbid some people may be having some fun and some employees may actually be making some money to cover the electric bill.
What is the world is happening to South Walton County

We need to do something about this problem - it is seriously affecting local businesses.

How can we put it to a vote that we want destination & local weddings, restaurants w/ live music, open-air concerts and events, and common sense....................instead of whiny tattletales who only have funn when ruining other peoples'.

Music being shut down at 9:30 on a saturday night would be considered ridiculous in Grandma Scooterbug's retirement community.

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The enemy is ignorance.

i agree that there is probably more to this story than what is on this blog. there are several local establishments that seem to attract people who drink heavily and get very loud and rambunctious. i love music but personally do not enjoy being around loud, drunk people so i stay away from certain bars/restaurants. i also don't like to think about these people driving. i do want our local musicians to be able to entertain here and make a good living - they deserve it! they frequently donate their time to causes and add so much to our area!!

I have been to several community meetings on this topic. The phrase I have heard over and over again is "We are a RESORT community not a RETIREMENT community". The noise ordinance in Grayton does not have a time or decibel limit. It is dertermineed by a reasonable person. What this means is that if someone complains a "reasonable person" (deputy) goes to the location and makes a resonable assestment of the noise and then acts accordingly. They are trying to adopt this county wide because it has been successful in Grayton for so long. At least it used to be. I was told personally by the new sheriff that his policy is as follows... 1st call - a deputy comes out and talks to you and helps you adjust to an aceptable volume. 2nd call - warning and adjustment. 3rd call. shut down/ticket/jail, depending upon the bar/musicians reaction. I was not at Pandora's so I dont claim to know the whole story but it doesn't sound like the sheriff's policy was followed. This community has been known for the local music scene for some time. It is now time for us as a community to decide which direction we want to go and fight for it. It is too late to solve the current problems by zoning. Perhaps we can designate quiet areas in future development. I am in the entertainment business and used to play locally almost every night of the week. Now I travel to Destin Crestview, FWB, Tally... I spend more and make less and do nothing to help the economy in my own neighborhood. Tourists call me every year to see where are playing and I have to tell them to go to Destin or some other town to catch one of our shows. Most local bar owners are afraid to have live music or even karaoke. I and most local entertainers understand that we can go too far on our part but we are having our right to earn a living taken away from us. I can understand someone complaining if a bar moves into their neighborhood but we have been dealing with bars that have been established for many years. To anyone new who doesn't like the music scene... I am sorry but you chose to live where you live. The bar was already there. BUYER BEWARE! Sue your realtor if you feel the need. Don't try to punish some one who is doing the same thing they were doing before you moved in. Even if the bar was closed when you bought the house. It is not reasonable to assume that a bar that is or was a bar that is zoned to be a bar will not in fact be a bar again just because you moved in. The casual atmosphere and local music scene is why most of us live here and it is why so many of our visitors come here and add money to our economy. If you do not like this, then do something about it please! Call the sheriff, call the county. Call anyone who will listen and be persistent. My suspician is that the majority of us are being ruled by the vocal few. Let's be the vocal majority!

It doesn't appear that the warnings took place.....we played our first set (1hr) and during that time the bartender asked that we turn the volume down. We turned it down until we were mostly heard acoustically....during our 1st break we noticed to police officers come in through the tiki bar and go straight to the kitchen at which point they brought out the manager and escorted him to the parking lot, frisked him and put him in the back seat and drove away.....now, if they had gone through all the steps neccessary, we didn't know about it.....all I know is that we lost income, the employees lost income, and there were some pretty dissappointed people there. (and by the way, none of them were drunk, disorderly, or otherwise.)

To be fair I want to point out that we still may not know all of the facts but it certainly sounds like it was unfair. You should consider calling the sheriffs office (not 911 obviously). Ask about the official policy and their interprtation of the noise ordinance just to verify (there has been lots of confusion on this issue in the past). Then tell them your story and them know that you feel you were treated inappropriately. Please be respectful though. They don't love spending there time dealing with noise complaints either. If someone calls they have to respond. If possible talk to the sheriff directly. They get plenty of calls to complain about the noise if we want to be heard we need to call to. Please keep in mind that while the sheriff's office has to deal with the problems they are not in charge of making the rules. That falls under the code department. They are currently trying to write a fair noise ordinance so give them a call too so they can consider your opinion in the process. One way or the other we need clear rules to solve this problem.

I would like to add... In my experience, there seems to be far more people upset about losing the music than people complaining about music. However the people complaining are complaing to the right people. The Code Department is in the process of reviewing and re writing the noise ordinance to be standard county wide. Everybody ,please, call and make your opinion known while it is on the table. Write a letter to the paper! Get your friends involved. Talk to the Sheriff. Call Governor Christ... Do whatever it takes to be represented!

We stayed and patronized them anyway. However, it would have been more funn and enjoyable had the music been a-playing!

If that complainer is so close to Pandora's, I'll bet they complain about the traffic, too......
maybe there are more issues at hand.

I would not build or buy next to a popular restaurant/bar or on a busy hwy./street. Just not my preference.

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

So I buy my beach front home for a million or so dollars, in a residential area, with covenants and restrictions that say no commercial activity. And you think it is okay that the guy next door rents out his million or so dollar home, every weekend, Thursday through Sunday, from April until September for a wedding, with noise, music, and activities going on into all hours of the night, and I am the bad guy?

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I live in a quiet residential neighborhood (well, now that THOSE neighbors moved) and was told on several occasions that THOSE neighbors could have their music blaring, raising H***, shooting off guns, etc. until 10pm. The sheriffs dept. would NOT come out until I called AFTER 10pm. Seems like its ok until 10pm unless you are in a business zone.

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WARNING: Things posted by this user may offend some people. All things posted above are the opinions of poster and not necessarily the opinions of this site..or anyone else for that matter. They might not even make sense or be suitable for children. Come to think of it, they might be unsuitable for adults or human consumption. Have a nice day.

Your situation is different because it is not a public place and does not have commercial zoning. The county is also working on that problem currently. I am not sure who you should call but it is your right to have your voice heard too. Hopefully we can find a fair solution to this problem as well. Many weddings are being conducted sucessfully and do bring a lot to our economy and I hate to see this effect everyone in the industry. Good luck.

Crazy, huh?

You live in Defuniak right? No beach front propeprty there, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. But, what you describe did happen in my neighborhood and the 'wedding house' now has restrictions placed upon it as it is zoned residential. Period.

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Who is Lynnie?? ~~~~~~~Signed, All Y'all

Do you know additional facts?

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Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle

That's a flawed analogy.

What you should have said is that you bought a house next to a major airport that had been around for 20 years and then started complaining about airplane noise.

I think that's a little more applicable...

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And also quite common................

We're not talking about live music at a home in a residential neighborhood, we're talking about established businesses in a commercial area being shut down by whiners and how it is effecting our economy.

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The enemy is ignorance.

How does a restaurant/bar manager control the voices of the patrons? Should the manager (this is at least the second incident around here where I heard the manager was sent to jail) be responsible for loud, obnoxious guests? Ever tried to heard cats?

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Can someone post the Sheriffs phone number? He is the one to call and find out what happened and to voice your concerns.

First, I'd like to point out to someone else that according to the Grayton Beach Noise Ordinance, loud, obnoxious drunks aren't included in this particular noise ordinance. Those sounds included are noted below.

ARTICLE V. NOISE
DIVISION 1. GENERALLY
Secs. 9-131--9-135. Reserved.


DIVISION 2. GRAYTON BEACH
Sec. 9-137. Definitions.

Plainly audible means any sound or noise produced or reproduced by a radio, tape player, television, electronic audio equipment, musical instrument, sound amplifier or other mechanical or electronic soundmaking device, that can be heard by a person using normal hearing faculties, at a distance of 100 feet or more from the real property line of the source of the sound or noise.

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Weatabix,
Sounds like you are one of the musicians playing that night, and it sounds like your duo was not warned by law enforcement.

Sec. 9-140. Violation procedures. (a) Complaint procedures; warnings.

(1) When a complaint is received, the law enforcement officer or designated county official shall promptly investigate the charges. The person making the compliant will not be required to identify himself/herself and may remain anonymous.



(2) When a law enforcement officer or designated county official determines that the sound emanating from a piece of property is in violation of section 9-138 of this division, the official shall issue an official warning to (1) the person or persons responsible for compliance with this division and (2) the person or persons making the actual sound. The warning shall state the violation, shall advise the offenders to cease and desist the violation, and shall advise of the possible penalty if the person or persons fail to eliminate the sound or reduce the sound so that it is within permitted limits and is not plainly audible.



(3) The person or persons receiving the warning shall have five minutes to comply with the warning.



(4) A warning issued under subsection (a)(2) is valid for a period of 30 days, and such warning shall remain in effect against the offending person or persons for the same or similar type violations for a period of 30 days.



(b) Arrest; termination of offending sound.


(1) If the sound is not eliminated or reduced to allowable limits within five minutes after the warning, or if the noise or sound is abated after warning and then reoccurs within 30 days, the person so warned and not complying shall be arrested for a violation of this division and upon conviction shall be subject to the penalties designated in section 9-141.



(2) If an arrest is made, the law enforcement officer or designated county official shall have the power and authority to immediately terminate the cause of the offending sound, including prohibiting any further sound from musical instruments or mechanical or electronic soundmaking devices or equipment for a period of 24 hours.



(c) Joint and several responsibility. The owner of the business, tenant or lessee of property, or a manager, overseer or agent, or any other person lawfully entitled to posses the property or manage the business premises from which the offending sound is emitted at the time the offending sound is emitted shall be jointly and severally liable for compliance with this division and each shall be punished for its volition as shall the person or persons actually causing such sound. It shall not be a lawful defense to assert that some other person caused the sound. The lawful possessor, manager or operator of the premises shall be responsible for operating or maintaining the premises in compliance with this division shall be applied to such person or persons as well as to the person or persons actually causing the sound.

(Ord. No. 96-15, § 5, 6-24-96)

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I'm no lawyer, and don't pretend to be one, but my understanding of the English language and the Walton County Ordinances (shown in bold and underline above), requires both the owner/management to be warned AND the person or persons making the "noise" to be warned. There is much difference between the words, "or" and "and." It seems to me that if the band wasn't also warned, they should not be able to arrest either party for the violation. What do you other non-lawyers think?

One other note regarding this last note in the Ordinance:
Sec. 9-142. Judicial construction. No provision of this noise ordinance shall be construed to impair any common law or statutory cause of action, or legal remedy therefrom. If any provision of this noise ordinance is held to be unconstitutional, preempted by federal or state law, or otherwise invalid by any court of competent jurisdiction, the remaining provisions of the noise ordinance shall not be invalidated.

(Ord. No. 96-15, § 7, 6-24-96)
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Shouldn't the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution supersede this Ordinance?
Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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I believe there is a process in place which involves the authorities selecting portions of local ordinance combined with state law that has resulted in this ridiculous interpretation and unlikely incarceration of business managers. This person or persons were emboldened by the problems last year at the Salty Dog and also local wedding venues which they felt were compromising their serenity. We need our laws changed to enhance our current economic climate and someone needs to be looking at the greater good which should be more than complete quiet near commercial zones. Also we should be made aware of the validity of the complaints and how they are being measured and interpreted and by whom.I think we need a lawyer or someone to help us figure out what exactly is the law and if it needs to be re-written. The people involved here live and work in this community and spend money here too. There is more involved than trying to exact a tranquil environment near business property which has been long standing .

Interesting!! We (Coconut Radio) were never approached about our sound levels by law enforcement that night. The police simply appeared and escorted away the person in charge....We were never given a warning and as I stated before, our levels were at acoustics levels to begin with AND at the time of the arrest we were on break....Thanks to everyone in support of the live music scene in Sowal....There are so many talented musicians in that area and I think it is wrong not to allow them to share their music with the music lovers!!

The law is unconstitutional. An anonymous person can complain and shut down a business employing dozens of SOWAL citizens.
Back in the 80s many law abiding fishermen had their boats seized and livelihoods lost because of the "Zero Tolerance" policy allowed anonymous tips to cause minuscule amounts of pot to be conveniently "found" in tin cans onborad. How did it get there? Seemed a great way to keep competitors out of the water. Perhaps another bar owner wanted to crowds to come over? Probably not, but without being able to confront your acuser, who knows? Do we still have habeas corpus in this country?

the hospitality industry employs more workers than any other industry in the united states only trailing the federal government. what do we have here in sowal? service industry, construction, real estate and retail. the people have the power and that power only becomes viable when organized.

i hereby propose to this community of "hospitalitarians" and entertainers that we at once unite and organize. we can then create an agenda and start achieving the objectives necessary to have our voices heard by our local government. by creating this unique and important lobby of like minded civilians we can begin to influence policy and law as it pertains to the benefit of our industry, our livelihoods and imho the betterment of our community and all that live in it.

as with any effective group we will have to create and attract membership, elect leadership, arrange and participate in meetings, and attend local government hearings etc..

i am willing to help get this in motion by contacting my fellow restaurateurs to gauge their interest and offer my space to meet.

it would also seem completely reasonable for this to be open to any walton county resident not just musicians and restaurateurs and the issues at hand would span well beyond just noise ordinances.

together our voices WILL be heard!

any thoughts or suggestions or anyone out there that is experienced in this type of organizing effort would be welcome to come forward and offer their skills in this matter.

scott alderson

I just drove by pandora's tonight and i didn't see 1 car there. Is it closed?Thats a ridiculous illegal law that should be challanged

I have heard some of "the rest of the story". Apparently, Pandora's new management has been attempting to turn it into a late night party place with music louder and later than previous. Alcohol sales are prohibited in Grayton Beach after 11 on weeknights and midnight on weekends. The Grayton beach noise ordinance came about because of the Red Bar, a compromise was reached, Ollie plays nice, and everyone gets along. It was worked out quite awhile ago and has been time tested. Recent changes at Pandora's has brought a slew of complaints by many different residents and tourists over the last few months.

So you see, the neighbors started out nice, but the new manager (22 years old) has ignored the nice attempts at working together, and flaunted the law. He is now paying the price. It's a small community. You can't come in and dump on people and ignore the law, and expect to get away with it.

Pandora's has been a great place to have dinner and hang out back and listen to good music, ending at a reasonable hour. It seems lately there is more of an emphasis in SoWal to party, understandably fostered by some establishments and local musicians. That's great but there are certain places where loud music can go on late at night and good times can be had. SoWal is and mostly always will be a family place and destination. Scenic 30A is primarily a residential kind of place.

The bottom line for Pandora's is that it isn't the neighbors who are changing,and suddenly upset about music, it is Pandora's that is changing by turning up the music and doing it later into the night. If that is what they must do then it needs to be done inside. There is plenty of space and some reading this may remember when very loud bands have played indoors.

As an aside, wedding parties in rental houses have become a huge noise problem for neighbors that the law is having to deal with.

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(Quoting the entire thread), Glad to be out of sowal.

I think it's great that there is so much passion against McDonalds and Walmart (have any tried to come there anyway with such high property prices?).

But no music crosses the line. What is there to do at night? If there is no music and fun, than what is there? "The Beach". It's sad that the few local spots that remain are now being managed by one complaint. I highly doubt that there were any more but one complaint (or many complaints from one) that closed the event.

Allow them, or don't. It's sad to see what "allow them" can mean (think PCB, Destin), but not allowing them seems like it will keep all of sowal in residential zoning forever. Please tell me that the future will bring music to enjoy in Sowal.....

No I agree with you on that one. People do that, imho, because they get the places cheap then they go to work getting things quieter. Boortz rants about this all the time.

I was asking about the wedding thing. That is the one I have heard about repeatedly where people retired to long time family houses, only to have these mini-motels(monster houses) next to them turn into wedding venues. How are these long time residents suppose to be protected?

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I believe the Sun article stated that he held office hours in sowal on Wednesdays.

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Well if you are going to apply the US Constitution to them as a standard, most of the ordinances that the BCC have passed would not pass muster, imho. But then that is the opinion of one non-lawyer to another non-lawyer.

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Scott,
You will have many people interested in this.....We are in! Thanks so much for stepping forward, this will work......Steve and Sue (The Coconuts)

Also, this is exactly what the Gravel Road people were talking about tonight, so it sounds like you all are on the same page, let's do it!

Talk to Jim (Lake Place). We started a group last year. We got lots of interest as long as no one had to do anything. I will be involved in any effort to be heard as a group. Chuck Hinson can give you info about the wedding professionals organization. We have been able to get the attention of the county.

There appears to be multiple documents pertainimg to noise. Some are laws. ordinance etc. They conflict and vary from neighborhood to another. No wonder we cant figure out what we can and can't do.

This is a problem and my understanding is that you will not be told who complained at the time but it is public record...

While I agree that things have changed, they always do, but Coconut Radio is not a rowdy rock band. They didn't even have drums or a bass. It was at a bar at 9:30 on a Saturday night. If Brandon or Pandora's or any other bar is a problem, then they should be dealt with accordingly. But a two piece string band hardly fits the bill for disturbing the peace. Grown ups have been listening to loud music in local bars for many years. That is what bars are for.
As far as the Wedding houses... That is a completely different situation. Private not public. And it is my understanding that the owners of those houses that are not properly zoned are busy dealing with the county now. That really is having your peace disturbed. A bar being a bar is just that.

The bar owners as a whole have bent over backwards to try to "comply". Salty Dog started off with a decibel meter and not so much as a radio on the porch. Plus they put time and money into dampening sound before they even opened. Eventually they just shut down all together. It is a bar that was run out of business for being a bar. Most of the places on 30a are literally afraid to have any kind of music especially not on the porch, even during the day. Pandora's has been booking smaller bands and keeping the volume down. Most musicians who used to be embraced everywhere are reduced to driving too far and making too little or not playing at all. Local music has been at the heart of our community since before it was officially a community. Now going out is Sowal feels like being a grade schooler at a slumber party. "Whisper so we don't wake mommy up"
With all that said, I do want to acknowledge the rights of every citizen. I don't want to disturb anyone's peace. The entertainers and bars have tried everything to work it out. It feels like the other side wont budge or even acknowledge our rights. The "Bar Scene" hadn't changed that much until now. I run a business based on music and I am looking into some other town to re locate my business. The other option looks less and less viable everyday. In summery: "9:30 on Saturday night??? Really???"

I am not in the business and so can't provide much in the way of a professional opinion, but last weekend a co-worker came down with her husband and another couple and emailed me asking what there was to do - their wish list started with "good food and live music".

I couldn't give her much of an answer - and now that I read this thread, I realize that it is because that the music is vanishing.

So, for you folks that want to put together a group to have a voice, perhaps you can start with some professional polling of visitors, asking whether or not live music influences their decision making. I think you will find that it does, for that important high-income, no kids population.

I am afraid, though, that there is a large drive to make this stretch the most "family friendly" beach it can be, and that is what is pushing this "blandization" of 30-a.

Coconut Radio was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is a shame they got hurt, but apparently it is the manager they should blame, not the neighbors.

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IMO you are wrong, there is no push, SoWal is family-friendly and likely always will be. I would say that while there is an issue right now, due to growth of the area, noise ordinance negotiation comes to every community as it grows. Something every community has to deal with at some point. It takes awhile to educate everyone and get on the same page. And there will be some on both sides who are not satisfied in the end but the majority will be served.

Calm heads need to prevail. The music scene is alive and growing in SoWal and it is a good thing. As artists and venues expand there will be some friction. We all want business owners to succeed, but they must do it with a good heart and not get too greedy. The Red Bar and Ollie Petit has set a great example. If he can thrive in the smallest and quietest of places, anyone else can too if they respect the community. I encourage any business owner to contact him. He is so warm and open - he will have excellent advice.

You notice there is always an off-duty deputy at his venue (in the past at the 331 also)? You think that is by accident?

I love music in an outdoor setting, but there are some places that isn't going to work past 9 or 10 PM.

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Pandora's is closed on Mondays.

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Amendment 6, US Constitution (aka - Bill of Rights): "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

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If this noise violation is a criminal breach of the Ordinance, it seems to me that the anonymity is in opposition to the US Constitution, and that particular part of the Ordinance is un-Constitutional. Again, I'm no attorney, nor do I pretend to be one.

(A public nuisance is a criminal wrong; it is an act or omission that obstructs, damages, or inconveniences the rights of the community.) Thinking about a public nuisance, I think a community could take the stand that not having music and entertainment is an act which obstructs and inconveniences the rights of the community. (There is a case in GA where the upper Courts ruled that a town's laws against strip clubs was unConstitutional because it interfeared with the strippers' rights of Freedom of Speech (Expression). )

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As I understand this particular situation, the band playing, was playing at an acoustic level.

If one wanted to raise hell, I believe the ordinance pertains to only amplified sounds, so maybe we should have all-acoustic sit ins, where the entire bar sings. I'd double check that Ordinance and get a true legal opinion before doing that.

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American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, News Release
April 17, 2009



Virginia Beach, VA – The Virginia Supreme Court today struck down Virginia Beach’s noise ordinance because it is unconstitutionally vague. The ordinance prohibits “any unreasonably loud, disturbing and unnecessary noise in the city” that “disturb[s] or annoy[s] the quiet, comfort or repose of reasonable persons.”


“We are pleased with the Court’s decision to strike down this law,” said ACLU of Virginia Executive Director Kent Willis. “Virginia Beach is free to control noise, but it must do so in a way that is reasonable and precise so as not leave residents and business owners guessing whether or not they are violating the law.”


The case, Tanner v. Virginia Beach, was filed by Bradley Tanner and Eric Williams, owners of The Peppermint Beach Club in Virginia Beach, who were frequently cited under the ordinance. The owners presented a broad range of evidence to show that the ordinance is vague and unevenly enforced. Police witnesses admitted that they use their own subjective judgment to decide if someone is violating the ordinance....

...Virginia Beach could correct its noise ordinance by stating a maximum decibel level at which sound can be heard at a specified distance from its source, as other localities have done. In this way, there is a quantifiable method by which to decide if someone is being too loud....

(full story)
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This was the first link which came up when I googled "noise ordinance unconstitutional," though there are many cases. Try it and see what you can find.

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The point I was making is that there had been so many complaints that the next call was going to result in an arrest. Not saying it is right or wrong but there is always 2 sides to every story. I don't know all the facts so I'm not meaning to take one side or the other. Sometimes I like my music, and sometimes I like my peace.

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It seems that many local noise ordinances all over the Country have been deemed unConstitutional by the Courts, citing vagueness and discrimination. The ones which I read that note the vagueness, suggest a particular decimal level. In my opinion, enforcing that would be difficult at best since a decimal meter cannot be focused so that it doesn't pick up all sounds from the area. The Walton County Ordinance, as I understand it, doesn't make it illegal for bar crowds to be loud, only the amplified sounds. I suspect that much of the sound eminating from a bar with music comes from the crowd trying to talk over the level of the music.

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Thanks. I wasn't there, and was relying solely on the word of one in the band that night. I don't pretend to know the details.

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I don't live anywhere near the Pandoras neighborhood, and have read every line of this thread to here before deciding to comment.

Is the 100 foot distance an effort to keep the music being played contained within the business patrons seating area? This would make sense to me.

I would go to more live music if I though there was a chance of being able to spend time with someone and actually carry out a conversation at the same time without needing to scream at the top of my lungs. Too many times, this is not possible.

To their defense, it doesn't sound like this is what the Coconuts were doing either.

The music intended for the folks hanging out at Pandoras should not need to be so loud as to be heard at the Red Bar, right? Seriously, right?
I grew up with Skynerd and Kiss and Mickey, but I don't need to listen to it at 110 decibels. It takes it way outside of my personal space and into someone else who maybe wants to listen to ABBA....or just the waves they just drove 800 miles to listen to.

I agree with both sides of this thread and would implore everyone to put their picket signs and pitchforks down.

Where would these local communities be without all the artists and musicians?
Where would these local communities be without the beaches and the waves?

You gotta have them both. Empathy, understanding the needs of the local small communities and above all, patience will yield the proper solution.

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Anthony

having music (even loud music) at 9:30 on a Saturday night at a restaurant/bar does not seem unreasonable to me--and I am a Granma who prefers Chopin!

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"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

Since 9:30 is roughly the time many tourists finish a dinner out it's freaking ridiculous IMO.

Just to check I ran it by the retirees/AARP card carriers in the family - their comment was that the Sunday night wedding reception they recently attended in a $$$$ beach community had music well after 10:30 pm.

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The enemy is ignorance.

Very true.....It has always been important to us as musicians to make sure our levels are adequate enough so that patrons can carry on a conversation and not feel they need to shout.....we know of many musicians in this area that feel the same way, we don't want to annoy anyone, we just want to put out a great product so that the listeners will have a good time and relax at these establishments....We hope this issue develops into a solution soon so we can all be satisfied.....We weren't in the wrong place at the wrong time if this calls people to action and rules get put into place.....We want to play by the rules AND we want to play music.....We can do both......Coconut Radio

My 2 cents for what they are worth.

I was at home after a long and hectic day at work. At 9:00 PM I didn't hear a peep coming from Pandora's direction and we live very close by in the woods that back up to it.

However, I could clearly hear a roughly 45 minute symphony of fireworks artillery being discharged (illegally) on the beach which is probably about 1/2 mile away from our house, as the crow flies.

Priorities, people, priorites...

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The Grayton Beach noise ordinance was put into place many years ago with the mindset that we are greatly a residential community and needed some sort of guideline to satisfy both residential families and businesses alike. Since it is in place we all must abide by it.

Red Bar has made it work and so can Pandora's.

As far as the loud music at Pandora's we have had only ONE complaint from a guest in all of the years we have been neighbors.

When the guest complained I PERSONALLY called the management at Pandora's and within an hour he came over and he & I sat down face to face and talked about the effect the loud music (Tornado Riders) had on our livelihood. The customer left the next day (after another night of music) very happy and thankful for having a peaceful nights sleep.

My hope is that no business be shut down and no employee or musician lose a job nor any neighbor truly be disturbed.

HUGS!

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BE GRATEFUL

try being quiet when people want to sleep....that may work

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appreciate today

Based on the posted comments from neighboring residents and businesses, they apparently aren't being that loud.

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The enemy is ignorance.

I have mixed feelings about the fact that the ordinance allows anonymous complaints. That makes sense for law enforcement agencies wanting tips for violent crimes, thievery, stalking, abuse, vandalism, etc., so people don't have to fear for their safety. But for music that's too loud, without an objective standard to follow? I don't think so.

Seems this ordinance may need to be revised.

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Susan Horn
www.artisan-builds.com

what time would that be?

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The mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open.

I wonder if there isn't something else going on: if the musicians say they were not playing loud; two neighbors, one business, one residential, say they did not hear/have customer complaints; most of us seem to think 9:30 on a Saturday night is an appropriate time for music....

what's the rest of the story?

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"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

Buster, I am confused by the above highlighted statement.

SO: An anonymous complaint about loud music (that apparently was NOT loud music since that isn't what CR plays) was lodged with the sheriff's dept.
SO: "CR was just in the wrong place at the wrong time".

Hmmm...

This leads me to the possibility that the repeated anonymous complaints don't necessarily have a thing to do with the noise levels at all...

but are really about someone having personal issues with THE MANAGER and deciding that multiple noise complaints would be a good way to 'teach him a lesson?

Or am I completely misinterpreting the point?

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When you want to Dance ~ Put on your RED Pants!

this in no way relates to what is being discussed in this thread.

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click >> Filter your water instead of using bottled water << click

i love it!

I am confused. Unless the manager was arrested for something not related to noise, I don't understand your point.

Everybody does get excited about this subject but I want to point out that all we have asked for since the beginning is a clear and fair ordinance. Most bars have followed "the assumed ordinance" for years with minimal problems. A two piece string band at 9:30 on Saturday night seems pretty reasonable to me. But if one person doesn't think so then its over. If we had clear rules to follow that problem and this thread would not exist. Plus, the cops would be free to fight crime

My understanding is that you can get the info. They don't want to give the information out at the time of the "disturbance". I would guess they dont want to to create another disturbance. I'm not sure how one would get that info but it would be nice to know if we are dealing a few people over and over or several people. My guess is a few but I don't claim to know.

I appreciate your point but nothing is that easy. Lots of people are up at 9:30 on Saturday. Some people aren't. I sometimes work days and start work before other people get up. Sometimes I work nights and go to bed when others get up. In fact my neighbor mows his lawn early on Saturday morning. About an hour or so atfer I go to bed (after work, just to clarify). I don't call the police. I could go ask him to adjust his schedule but he has been mowing that yard on Saturday morning since before I even lived here. Live and let live. He isn't trying to bother me and I did choose move to a house with a neighbor who mows his yard. I could live in the woods if I wanted to expect total peace on my schedule. There is a middle ground. We just have to find it. A string band on Saturday night might just be too much for some people but it seems far from the middle ground when someone goes to jail over it. If the police took an adjustment policy, it might not take long to figure out what volume does work. And keep in mind these bar owners are trying to please their clientelle. That is what any reasonable person in any business would do. None of us in the bar or entertainment indusrty want to disturb any peace or infringe on others rights but it has to be a two way street to work.

I've driven past Pandora's at night while bands were playing on many nights. From the road, you cannot hear them playing. It is only when you approach the back patio that you can typically hear any music or noise.

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"It's 9:30 p.m. and it's Saturday night: Have your Turned Your Music Off?"
(Sarcasm on)

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"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

We live one door down to the house that could be described as the house that backs up to Pandora's. We have a porch off our bedroom upstairs, and when we first moved in last September, I'd go out on the porch and listen to the music from Pandora's. It was barely audible, just a soft murmur of background music. It was really pleasant. That stopped shortly after we moved in, when these complaints started. The music had never been loud enough for us to hear when we were inside the house.

As for Saturday night, I never heard any music. Our upstairs air conditioner was broken, so I had the back doors to the porch open as well as all the windows. I heard nothing. My peace was only disturbed by the fireworks on the beach (the gunpowder smell was drifting into my bedroom) and the flashing lights of the three police cars at a nearby house.

With all this support, perhaps a campaign of visibility would help more than anything else. Come up with a slogan -- something like "I support live, local music" or "Keep Grayton Funn" with a musical design -- and make bumper stickers, yard signs, etc. Perhaps local folk/political sign painter Skunkape would volunteer his services...I'm sure with all the talented people in the arts community around here, a great design would be easy. I'll volunteer to put up a yard sign. I'm sure the visible support of neighbors would do much to further your cause!

"Music knows no boundaries."

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Great idea! What we really need is a good clear law and this sounds like a great way to get our opinion heard or at least noticed. I will be looking into stickers today. I have joined two organizations to deal with this and other issues and I thought that this issue was resolved by the new sheriff's policy. Also, the county is working on an ordinance which brings us back to vague and unconstitutional. Perhaps the musicians need to start yet another organization. Perhaps we need to write and propse our version of the ordinance. Perhaps if the people who have been complaining come out of the shadows and explain exactly what they want we can find the middle ground. All I know for sure is that if a string band on Saturday night is too much then we all might as well pawn our instruments and start an early afternoon shuffleboard social club. No drinking though, we wouldn't want the shuffleboard club to disturb the peace. I would like to add that all of the meeting I have been to on this subject included a total of TWO PEOPLE who were against the music. If that is at all reflective of the community, I think this issue is solved. Just one more thought. If all these people go to bed so early, then why do all our local businesses open so late in the morning? In fact the only shops open early are bars and restaurants. ONE MORE TIME. None of us want to disturb anybody's peace however the entire community cannot yield to a couple of people. All we are trying to do is what we have been doing for many years. Yes, some things do happen at bars that shouldn't, but that has nothing to do with the legitimacy of live music.

I should have posted this earlier but here it is:
The Association of Emerald Coast Event Professionals - AECEP09@yahoo.com

30A Business Owners josie@stinkysfishcamp.com

Both of these organizations have been dealing with this and other issues that affect our local businesses.

The sheriffs office does have a liason but I can't seem to find the number. Here is the substation - 267-2700 or 267 - 2613 (remember they dont make the rules but they do haveto respond to complaints)

Code enforcement - 622-0000

Ok. Before everybody floods the substation with calls...I just got off the phone. I was not able to get much info but I am expecting a call from someone who can answer my questions. I will post what I learn. In the meantime I have talked to my crew and Southern Groove would be more than happy to organize the musicians and bar owners and supporters. Hit me up if you would like to be involved. (groovegirls@netzero.net, 259-3035 or via SoWal) Start thinking about a name and a slogan as Rapunzel suggested. Spread the word and gather support!

At the end of the day, this is going to need legal representation "defence fund" and a collective group to fund it, then representation is made for a reasonable, fair, and CLEAR set of walton county and local ordinance that can be voted on by the majority and or elected representatives.
Town hall meetings held prior to drafting amendments, changes to existing, or whatever lawyers do
We are close enough to Tallahassee to be able to find such a lawyer skilled in writing and or addressing such
Then, clear procedure is handed off to SWPD
So, while slogans are good and catchy, give it a purpose, to fund representation so this situation can be resolved long term
There are folks round here who are "advising" the "residents" on how to complain, thats kinda petty and behind the door versus being open and debating the solution
This also stems from those in influence on the county that have provided many obstacles in the way of people reopening or altering existing properties that dont want "growth" in SRB / blue mountain for just one area to speak of
newsflash --reopening or remodeling is not expansion
Try naming any new bars that have opened in a free standing building in recent years
Only one I can think of right now that comes close was Seerings, and redfish residents were well aware of it.

Coming here from Key West and hearing about the Dog and Pandoras recent troubles I just shake my head, I am troubled by the closed mindedness and use of tax dollars (calling police) to further what seems to be personal agendas versus whats fair for everyone

Yeh KW is a party town but they have ordinances too. Clear and enforced.

30a was revered to me by hubby when we were moving from KW
as a community that pulls together, is supportive of everyone
These (now regular) occurances are far from that.
Shame.

I immediately donate $100 to any organized legal fund set up, and I am sure Mr Redd will too

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www.thesingingbartender.com
www.reddsings.com
www.30abuzz.com

The answer, to me is very plain; the ordinance should be based on objective data, not subjective opinion in response to a phone call from a disgruntled neighbor. The SO owns decibel meters that are not being used, for whatever reason. Distance and SPL(sound pressure level) are quantifiable.
It amazes me that Walton is not adhering to an ordinance that is already on the books. It seems to me that the arrested employee(and past arrested employees) have a strong class action suit waiting to happen. Why Walton tries to reinvent the wheel all the time, when other counties have already laid the groundwork, is beyond comprehension.
Also, the complainant at some point loses anonymity, no?

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click >> Filter your water instead of using bottled water << click

Soon everyone should have money for this fund simply from not having any places to go and things to do around 30 A.

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FOX NEWS-WE ALTER REALITY, YOU GET SOLD A PRECONCEIVED NARRATIVE

"Why Walton tries to reinvent the wheel all the time, when other counties have already laid the groundwork, is beyond comprehension"

JohnR: when someone finds the answer to this, I hope they post it...this ("reinventing the wheel") behavior happens all the time--no matter what the subject. I just don't understand it either and efforts to make a difference have (at least in my experience) fallen on deaf ears. It is frustrating.

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"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

I have a theory that it is due to too many "consultants" having a vested interest in the various agencies.

A new idea requires polling, feasibility studies, extensive editing and drafting or regulations etc............

Adopting a model someone else develops and has already revised means far less $$$.

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The enemy is ignorance.

You are right. The odds are good that this will end up a legal fight. And any long term organized effort will likely take money. However I want to say again. The county is right now working on a county wide noise ordinance. This is in direct response to the efforts of the AECEP. We have had many officials at our meetings. There was also a public meeting at the courthouse a while back. I am just going to go ahead and say it. No entertainer outside of Southen Groove/Rebel Yell and Duke have been to one single meeting. That courthouse room was full but it should have been overflowing. No money or lawyers needed for this one folks. (Although Lyod Blue has been at our meetings to offer advice based on his experiences locally and legally)Call the Code Dept. Call your local, county and state representitives and lets get our voices heard before we need "Lawyers, Guns and Money" ( if you got that reference, you are old like me). As far as signs and such, that is not enough but it does get the word out and raises awareness and it allows more people to get involved. The main thing we need is support from the people of Walton County. If any one wants to support our effort in any way, I welcome and thank you in advance.

I just read my post and wanted to say sorry Redd. I didn't intend to sound like I was scolding you. I get worked up about this subject.

please let us know when and where, because I promise we will get involved....whatever it takes to make the changes....Pandora's and all the other great venues in South Walton need our voices.....Thanks for all the support! Steve and Sue from Coconut Radio......

I'm so glad to see all the passion on this issue. Here's a perfect opportunity for folks to get to know their county commissioners, speak up, write letters, and have their voices heard and responded to. Patience and persistence are essential.

I share the puzzlement as to why we keep having to reinvent the wheel, and as one who's served on a number of quasi-legislative boards writing some of these ordinances, I cannot begin to suggest an explanation. I have tried and generally got nowhere.

But I must say, consultants aren't all bad. Part of why we keep reinventing the wheel is because the powers that be seem to have a strong distaste for paying to bring in folks who craft municipal ordinances for a living and know how to write them so that they can be understood, followed and enforced effectively and withuot expensive lawsuits. Instead, TPTB put well intentioned laypeople (citizens apointed to the boards and task forces) and equally well intentioned county staff in the impossible position of coming up with codes out of the blue. The result is ultimately, I believe, far more expensive in terms of lawsuits and county staff time/$$ than it would be to pay an expert facilitator/code writer to assist in getting rules on the books that we can all live with.

I am certain the roots of this must be political, but I am so far from being a natural born politician that that entire realm leaves me reeling with confusion.

I'm all behind any effort that brings about positive change in the process whereby Walton County addresses these univeral community issues -- issues that no doubt will continue painfully and expensively for us all unless we make the needed changes.

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Susan Horn
www.artisan-builds.com

There was a consultant paid in 2003-2004 to write the original ordinance. A lot of the language was pulled from Destin's ordinance.

Kurt, thanks, good to know. Maybe if the consultant's participation is why our ordinance is so ineffective/confusingly written, this is why people object to the hiring of consultants, LOL.

I wonder if Destin's ordinance is as vague as Walton County's as to the standard for determining nuisance-volume music?

I also wonder about the apparent failure of law enforcement to follow the steps provided in the ordinance -- are they not receiving proper training? Any time I've had any dealings with Walton County Sheriff's Dept., the officers have been very courteous and responsive, even when handing me a speeding ticket I confess I still haven't gotten over being fined for a glass bottle on the beach when right next to me were a Hummer and 2-3 other vehicles without beach permits, lots of dogs without permits, etc. I think I was the easiest target at the moment.

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Susan Horn
www.artisan-builds.com

Allow me to jump in without complete knowledge here, but all of the information which I was posting about the noise ordinance earlier, is all specific to the area of Grayton Beach, defined by hwy 30A to the north and Grayton Beach State Parks to the east and west. I believe it is unique and specific to Grayton Beach only, not the rest of the County, and as I understand it, it has been on the books for a while, not written by a consultant in 2003-2004. Perhaps that is the County wide ordinance that was written by the consultant.

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Susan, that is interesting. I have been thinking for a long time that I would like to see some stats on speeding (and other) tickets issued

I bet they are more often than not issued to females and older people; I see so many trucks and especially construction trucks, speeding on highway 98, but I have never in the 10 years I have lived here; seen one of the construction vehicles (dump trucks, etc.) that has been stopped by a cop--although I know I have been passed by them when they were going at least 75 mph in a 45, 55 or 60 mph zone.

I think there is something to going after the target that is perceived to be the easiest. Like when the cops "hide" in the bushes on JD Miller Road and ticket someone who is going 40 in a 35 mph zone, on a empty road. No, I have not gotten a ticket, but I know folks who have...and, most of the men I know who get stopped, more often than not, are just given warnings...at least more often than the women.

I would prefer to see the LEOs out on 98 dealing with people who are weaving in and out of traffic, speeding, and tailgating, In other words, the ones who are truly being a safety hazard....

Just my 2cents Sorry, did not mean to hijack the noise thread...

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"If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them."
George Orwell

Goodwitch,

I hadn't thought of it in those terms (more women getting tickets than men) but it's sure worth investigating. I have noticed a lot of the same as you describe -- really dangerous drivers don't get stopped; folks going a little over the limit get speed-trapped (that would be moi). The speed limit goes up and down so often on 98, even when you are familiar with it, it's easy to get distracted and forget to slow down. The scariest place by far, to me, is 395/98 intersection. I do wish TPTB would take another look at that and try to put something in place to mitigate the problem at least if not solve it.

Sorry to continue the hijack. Maybe if this topic wants to continue, we should start a new thread?

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Susan Horn
www.artisan-builds.com

May I offer as a solution that walco establish an adult party zone somewhere on hwy 98, along the likes of Rush street in Chicago, where a large variety of music venues be allowed.
Planning and zoning with Mixed use never works for someone wanting to bring night life to a community, and lets face it 30-a is residential.
The only way to party on 30-a is to build a sound proof bunker.
And remember if music is outlawed only outlaws will have music.

That is not a bad idea for the future. In fact it has come up before. Quiet areas could be designated too. The problem with doing that now is that it would effectively close the bars that already exist on 30a. And who is gonna buy the property from them? They all are running legal, licecsed businesses. They shouldn't have to move. Of course, the homeowners could also say the same thing if you turn this the other way and designate the current bars as Party Zones. Which then brings us back the bars on 30a (most of em) have been there a long time. Why should they have to move or change. I really hope people contact the county. If my suspicions are true most of the complaints are not legitimate but I have no way to prove my theory except see how many people speak up. Unfortuneatly we can not call to complain about the silence so by design only one side of the story is truly heard. Either way everybody needs to make their opinion heard or we will likely end up back in the same place dealing with the same problem. One argument that has been raised more than once is that the bars are bad or doing something that they shouldn't. To me that is a seperate issue. If a bar or its staff are breaking the law then they should have to answer to the law but it is a seperate issue. Its like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And it seems to me that most people appreciate the bars. So I say again. Make your voice heard by those that represent you!

That is what I understand too and I have done a lot of research and talked to lots of people and seen lots of documents and I am still confused which is the root of the problem. How can someone abide by a law that is vague and varied and confusing. No one semms to have a clear understanding of the law. Back in the day everybody seemed to manage their noise based on time and day and it seemed to work until complaints started to come in earlier and earlier.

Just got off the phone with the Walton Sun. They will be calling some of you too. This is a great opportunity to be heard! Please take advantage of it!