Should driving on the beach be restricted to permanent residents?

Yzarctoo · 10-08-2009, 04:32 PM

The draft with the suggested changes that the Walton County Commissioners are looking at are up for viewing. The changes are in RED.

http://www.co.walton.fl.us/DocumentView.aspx?DID=1405

The draft will be read at the Oct 13th meeting that will be held at the Annex on 331 with a possible voting taking place. Meeting is at 4PM.

kurt · 10-08-2009, 05:26 PM

This would certainly reduce the number of vehicles on the beach.

I added the poll - for or against?

seagrovegirl · 10-08-2009, 06:48 PM

One of the issues about beach permitting is that a property that is an LLC or other business entity with many members , say 12 , can all qualify for a permit by the current code. That clogs the arteries of our small postage stamp beach.

My only issue with the current proposal is that it will limit families that have had homes in Grayton Beach for years, yet are not permanent residents.

My thought is this; limit usage to permanet residents and allow Grayton Beach Subdivision property owners, whether permant resident or not to qualify for a permit.. In addition, limit permits to 2 per household/lot.

John R · 10-08-2009, 09:44 PM

I see no reason for private security firms to have a reduced fee per vehicle.

Also, i see no reason why residents of grayton should have a different set of qualifications.

I voted in the poll for changes in red.

ymmv

Miss Kitty · 10-08-2009, 09:47 PM

Damm...just when I was getting that 4 wheel drive.

ray · 10-09-2009, 12:33 AM

why not limit it to residents of grayton beach only?if not then limit it to 1 permit per home. to discriminate between a full time or part time land owner is wrong and i'm not sure legal.

Beach Runner · 10-09-2009, 05:47 AM

The current proposal is too restrictive. Property owners in Grayton Beach should be allowed to have permits. EDIT: I agree with limiting it to 1 permit per parcel.

NotDeadYet · 10-09-2009, 07:08 AM

I have never agreed with the property ownership requirement. I do agree that full time residency is a valid requirement. My reason for disagreeing with the property ownership requirement is the younger generation. I know plenty of twenty and thirty something second or third or fourth or fifth generation kids who have lived and worked here all their lives. Quite a few of them are building businesses and they contribute to the community in many ways every day, but haven't yet bought their own homes. They fish, go boating, kayak, yolo board and should have the same opportunity to launch a boat, which was as I understand it one of the reasons for keeping the Grayton access open to beach driving - a place in SoWal to launch a boat into the Gulf without driving a long distance away. The property ownership requirement discriminates on economic grounds, while residency is a valid requirement. Residency is used across the country in many locations as a qualification for all sorts of local activities and services - library cards, parking permits, etc., and I think the issue of discrimination against renters has come up more than a time or two.
I would favor strict rules for full time residency. Vehicle registration and insurance and driver's license address in Walton County, voter registration likewise, and a limit on the number of permits per residence.
As for the reduced fee for private security firms, it appears that came from Sandestin. They ought to pay their own way at full price, imho, and beyond that I would question why they even need to be driving on the beach.

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 08:14 AM

as a permit holder for years now, it should absolutely be for perm. residents. and i think limiting one per parcel isnt a bad idea either. after all, i can only drive one vehicle at a time. and my friends that take two im sure can car pool. but than again, allowing just perm residents will greatly reduce traffic flow. in the end, the traffic flow isnt bad at all......except for summer holidays.

captnk · 10-09-2009, 08:27 AM

How about giving us back are other beach laucnhing sights. Then maybe Grayton would not be so congested.

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captnk

How about giving us back are other beach laucnhing sights. Then maybe Grayton would not be so congested.

AGREED! i would love to know those who voted to keep all vehicles off the beach. what do you want to bet they are newbies to the hood?

ray · 10-09-2009, 10:10 AM

So you're telling me that i own a home in grayton and pay the same taxes as you and am there 3-5 months of the year and support all the stores and restuants and i shouldn't be allowed to drive on the beach?TELL ME WHY SOMEBODY WHO LIVES FULL TIME IN ROSEMARY BEACH 10 MILES AWAY SHOULD HAVE MORE PRIVILAGES THAN ME WHO OWNS IN GRAYTON WERE THE BEACH IS?excuse me but thats bs.if and i mean if its passed it should be only for FULL TIME GRAYTON RESIDENTS.

Smiling JOe · 10-09-2009, 10:23 AM

Maybe those fees they collect from the permits should be used to inspect the vehicles applying for permit, to insure that they aren't leaking oil, transmission fluid, etc.

Also, I see plenty of vehicles on the beach without permits, and I have never seen any stopped by the cops, even when the cops drive by. Enforcing current rules on permits seems to be a good place to start for limiting the number of vehicles on the beach.

I read comments about Grayton owners, but there were four places to drive on the beach, and only one was Grayton. Why limit to Grayton owners only. Also, I know many second home owners who live elsewhere, but have for many years, driven to Grayton for beach going. Should they also be included if we are going only by history of use?

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray

So you're telling me that i own a home in grayton and pay the same taxes as you and am there 3-5 months of the year and support all the stores and restuants and i shouldn't be allowed to drive on the beach?TELL ME WHY SOMEBODY WHO LIVES FULL TIME IN ROSEMARY BEACH 10 MILES AWAY SHOULD HAVE MORE PRIVILAGES THAN ME WHO OWNS IN GRAYTON WERE THE BEACH IS?excuse me but thats bs.if and i mean if its passed it should be only for FULL TIME GRAYTON RESIDENTS.

because those in rosemary living 10miles away as you stated live here full-time. its not just about paying taxes and supporting local business as much as i applaud you for doing so. we're talking about a 1/4 mile of beach here. im on that beach at least twice a day and have seen it like a walmart parking lot out there at times. its obviously because of the mass growth, but its because we allow anyone to drive down there. fact is, if the authorities enforced the rules we would rid the beach of many. i know of several trucks as we speak that go down constantly and have no permit. bottom line, if you live here 100% of the time and own property you should be the permit holders-period. we all cant get what we all want sometimes. but than again, we are an entitlement society these days....

SHELLY · 10-09-2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkddbb

AGREED! i would love to know those who voted to keep all vehicles off the beach. what do you want to bet they are newbies to the hood?

I'm not a "newbie" to the hood--I've probably lived here longer than you and the majority of posters on this board.

It is my belief that vehicles, dogs and overnight gypsy camps don't belong on our beaches--all have and bring their own type of pollution and destruction that further erodes this precious natural resource.

.

John R · 10-09-2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray

So you're telling me that i own a home in grayton and pay the same taxes as you ... it should be only for FULL TIME GRAYTON RESIDENTS.

by your own reasoning, your argument is flawed. why should residents of grayton be the only one's granted the privilege? also, there are people who launch boats and make their livelihood from the beach who don't live in grayton

if we're really going to go for it, those residents who have homesteaded their properties should be those who qualify.

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHELLY

I'm not a "newbie" to the hood--I've probably lived here longer than you and the majority of posters on this board.

It is my belief that vehicles, dogs and overnight gypsy camps don't belong on our beaches--all have and bring their own type of pollution and destruction that further erodes this precious natural resource.

.

i would agree that the beach has got entirely too much on it, but can you provide anything that says my truck that doesnt leak a drop is bad for the beach? and thats a sincere question, not a gottcha moment. i care deeply for this land and practice what i preach on a daily basis, but i truly havent been able to answer that question. and dogs shouldnt be allowed either, but human footprints can? or do you mean those dogowners that allow fiddo to drop it anywhere and leave it? or allowing them to run in the dunes? nothing ticks me off more than that... but, other than that a dog is no different than a human footprint.

and oh, i love how some can predict how long someone lives somewhere....

SHELLY · 10-09-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkddbb

i would agree that the beach has got entirely too much on it, but can you provide anything that says my truck that doesnt leak a drop is bad for the beach? and thats a sincere question, not a gottcha moment. i care deeply for this land and practice what i preach on a daily basis, but i truly havent been able to answer that question. and dogs shouldnt be allowed either, but human footprints can? or do you mean those dogowners that allow fiddo to drop it anywhere and leave it? or allowing them to run in the dunes? nothing ticks me off more than that... but, other than that a dog is no different than a human footprint. :

There is no way to police whose truck does or doesn't leak oil and transmission fluid in the sand...there's no way to police whose dog owner leaves their dog's pile of steaming crap and urine in the sand. If neither are allowed on the beach, policing such would be a snap, because a leaking truck or a dog with explosive diarrhea could easily be identified as a violator and hustled off the beach...easy peasy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkddbb

and oh, i love how some can predict how long someone lives somewhere....:idontno:

....not exactly batting 1000 when you stated: "AGREED! i would love to know those who voted to keep all vehicles off the beach. what do you want to bet they are newbies to the hood?"

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHELLY

There is no way to police whose truck does or doesn't leak oil and transmission fluid in the sand...there's no way to police whose dog owner leaves their dog's pile of steaming crap and urine in the sand. If neither are allowed on the beach, policing such would be a snap, because a leaking truck or a dog with explosive diarrhea could easily be identified as a violator and hustled off the beach...easy peasy.

....not exactly batting 1000 when you stated: "AGREED! i would love to know those who voted to keep all vehicles off the beach. what do you want to bet they are newbies to the hood?"

good point, but do we penalize everyone because of a few bad apples? i assure you that the mass majority of grayton beach goes are respectful with their dogs. and i can also name names of those who are not. believe it or not, nearly all local grayton rats like myself are definately looking out for the beach and those who are not are exposed....trust me!

SWGB · 10-09-2009, 12:12 PM

How about a set number of permits. Allow charter boats to receive theirs first and then it's a first come first serve basis? The only qualification being that the vehicle be able to drive on the beach without getting stuck.

Just Curious · 10-09-2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray

So you're telling me that i own a home in grayton and pay the same taxes as you and am there 3-5 months of the year and support all the stores and restuants and i shouldn't be allowed to drive on the beach?TELL ME WHY SOMEBODY WHO LIVES FULL TIME IN ROSEMARY BEACH 10 MILES AWAY SHOULD HAVE MORE PRIVILAGES THAN ME WHO OWNS IN GRAYTON WERE THE BEACH IS?excuse me but thats bs.if and i mean if its passed it should be only for FULL TIME GRAYTON RESIDENTS.

All you have to do is register to vote in Walton County and you would be eligible to get a permit.

I agree with Captnk, I think there should be more beaches available to be driven on. It can be done in a responsible way to protect the environment, and still allow people to enjoy the beach, and I would love to be able to camp out on the beach and build a fire, but I will never get the chance.

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWGB

How about a set number of permits. Allow charter boats to receive theirs first and then it's a first come first serve basis? The only qualification being that the vehicle be able to drive on the beach without getting stuck.

respectfully, thats unfair. not everyone is able to jet down to the annex whenever they want and many of us are the ones on that beach every day and every night.

Just Curious · 10-09-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWGB

How about a set number of permits. Allow charter boats to receive theirs first and then it's a first come first serve basis? The only qualification being that the vehicle be able to drive on the beach without getting stuck.

You could also do a pre-registration for residents, and then open it up for others.

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Curious

All you have to do is register to vote in Walton County and you would be eligible to get a permit.

I agree with Captnk, I think there should be more beaches available to be driven on. It can be done in a responsible way to protect the environment, and still allow people to enjoy the beach, and I would love to be able to camp out on the beach and build a fire, but I will never get the chance.

must be able to provide a valid walton cnty land deed. voter registration wont work.

i camp on the beach often only its not here on 30a. but, youll need a boat

Just Curious · 10-09-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkddbb

must be able to provide a valid walton cnty land deed. voter registration wont work.

i camp on the beach often only its not here on 30a. but, youll need a boat

Yeah, but ray said he owned a house in grayton, so all he has to do is become a registered voter and he is good to go.

scooterbug44 · 10-09-2009, 12:27 PM

Question - how much would restricting it to one permit per household/property help with the issue?

IMO it would certainly help w/ the "many vehicles from one LLC owned property" issue.

P.S. What the heck is going on lately? Seems like I can't go to any green space or beach w/o seeing a dog pooping....................and it not getting cleaned up.

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooterbug44

Question - how much would restricting it to one permit per household/property help with the issue?

IMO it would certainly help w/ the "many vehicles from one LLC owned property" issue.

P.S. What the heck is going on lately? Seems like I can't go to any green space or beach w/o seeing a dog pooping....................and it not getting cleaned up.

example: wife takes one truck and husband takes another on the same day. i have friends that do that every weekend.

do what i do, call those people letting dogs crap on the beach out in public. thats a huge problem for me and i have my mutt on the beach daily. its the same as people throwing cig butts out the window. pure laziness and ignorance

kurt · 10-09-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Curious

All you have to do is register to vote in Walton County and you would be eligible to get a permit.

I agree with Captnk, I think there should be more beaches available to be driven on. It can be done in a responsible way to protect the environment, and still allow people to enjoy the beach, and I would love to be able to camp out on the beach and build a fire, but I will never get the chance.

You can do both here - guess where?

Bobby J · 10-09-2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHELLY

I'm not a "newbie" to the hood--I've probably lived here longer than you and the majority of posters on this board.

It is my belief that vehicles, dogs and overnight gypsy camps don't belong on our beaches--all have and bring their own type of pollution and destruction that further erodes this precious natural resource.

.

I hate to agree and have been here a long time as well. It really saddens me to go down there and see it look like a walmart parking lot. I drive on the beaches often but because of a few bad dogs see it coming to an end one day.

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurt

You can do both here - guess where?

wheres this?

Just Curious · 10-09-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurt

You can do both here - guess where?

Camping on the Gulf in Sandestin, but I have to have an RV to camp there, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

kkddbb · 10-09-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Curious

Camping on the Gulf in Sandestin, but I have to have an RV to camp there, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

thats what i thought, thanks! i cant believe that big thing doesnt get stuck

scooterbug44 · 10-09-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkddbb

example: wife takes one truck and husband takes another on the same day. i have friends that do that every weekend.

do what i do, call those people letting dogs crap on the beach out in public. thats a huge problem for me and i have my mutt on the beach daily. its the same as people throwing cig butts out the window. pure laziness and ignorance

So if we limited it to one per household, apparently we could reduce the number of vehicles quite a bit. Guess I don't really see the need for 2 vehicles on the beach from the same house when crowding is an issue.

I find it hilarious that you think I DON'T call out the people w/ pooping dogs. Frequently though the issue is that the owner is nowhere to be seen.

Miss Kitty · 10-09-2009, 02:14 PM

Sounds like, once again, the people that think the rules don't apply to them ruin a good thing for those of us that do follow the rules. How is it that no enforcement of the permit law is followed? IJS.

ray · 10-09-2009, 10:49 PM

i say limit the permits to 1 car per household and see how that goes. but i think discriminating between a full time and part time homeowner will be challanged legally..i have every right as a homeowner to be able to drive to the beach . if that doesn't work then bar all cars from the beach.

NotDeadYet · 10-10-2009, 06:24 AM

After thinking it over, I think I have to agree with ray. I don't see a lot of difference between discriminating against full time vs part time residents and discriminating against renters vs property owners. Either one could produce a situation that seems unfair to me. Ray would be ineligible and so would a young charter boat captain who is a full time resident, business owner, has been here for generations, but doesn't own property in his name. Of course there are ways to circumvent both restrictions - claim full time residency, put the permitted vehicle in the name of a property owner, etc. But why write an ordinance that is a set up for rule-breaking? If the idea is to reduce the number of vehicles on the beach, maybe it should be gone about in another way.
Better might be for the SO to enforce the permit rule, and maybe a change to the ordinance allowing a limit of the number of vehicles on the beach at any one time, and/or a time limit on parking on the beach?
Really I lean toward Shelly's view that vehicles don't belong on the beach, but I am okay with restricting it to Grayton where it is a long-standing tradition. I would oppose any expansion of the area or reopening of the former driving areas. So that takes us back to somehow limiting the use.

kurt · 10-10-2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkddbb

wheres this?

Padres Island National Seashore, Texas, USA.

Yzarctoo · 10-10-2009, 08:15 AM

If you feel strongly one way or the other on the new Driving on the Beach Draft that the County Commissioners will be reading and possibly will take a vote on ...please attend the Meeting at 4 PM, Tuesday October 13th over at the Courthouse Annex on 331 and let them know your views.

If you can't make the meeting, please call Mr. Demers at 267-1955 and express your views, or you can contact him at : demgerry@co.walton.fl.us.

I think our Commissioners and Mr. Demers need to hear all of our views so that perhaps they might table the (issue/vote) and take another look at the issue so that it will treat all taxpayers and property owners in Walton County fairly. The next date for applying for Beach Permits is June 1, 2010. So they do have time to do more study on this issue.

John R · 10-10-2009, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurt

Padres Island National Seashore, Texas, USA.

I have friends who stay out there every year for over a month to wind surf. they used to park right on the beach, but have since moved landward to the campground, more for being connected to the ammenities than anything else.

Smiling JOe · 10-10-2009, 08:48 AM

So what about those owners of fractional units? Each can sell their deed separately from the remaining owners. They are not held in a collective LLC as owning all portions of the total unit. Each portion is separate.

Grayton Girl · 10-10-2009, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smiling JOe

So what about those owners of fractional units? Each can sell their deed separately from the remaining owners. They are not held in a collective LLC as owning all portions of the total unit. Each portion is separate.

Well, I guess if the fractional owner is also a full-time resident (as evidenced by either a Walton County address on the driver's license, a homestead exemption in Walton County (which they can't get as a fractional owner), or a Walton county Voter's registration) AND also has the 4-wheel drive vehicle registered in their name and in Walton County, then they could get a permit.

But is a fractional owner a full-time resident? I don't think so and I also believe that the fractional ownership is noted on the deed and therefore would not be eligible.

Geo · 10-10-2009, 10:54 AM

I hear a lot of talk that due to the growth of the area that we now need to limit the number of vehicles on the beach. But do we really? I drive on the beach about every other day and except for a couple holidays (e.g. July 4th) I don't see a major issue. Do we really need to implement more rules for the whole year when the problem exists for half a dozen days annually?

If I am wrong and we really do have an issue then I think limiting it to one car per household is the simplest change that provides the biggest bang for the buck. When I have more guests in town than will fit in one vehicle we simply take two cars, park one of them someplace near the beach and shuttle everyone and all our stuff on and off the beach with the one permitted vehicle.

The only drawback I can think of with this is that it could cause parking issues in Grayton. But is this scenario really that common?

Two cents...

G

Smiling JOe · 10-10-2009, 12:01 PM

I haven't heard anyone mentioning curbing the number of vehicles by having limitations between Memorial Day and Labor Day. As Geo said, there isn't much ado about the number of vehicles in the off season.

ShallowsNole · 10-11-2009, 08:20 PM

I am not a beach driver, and I don't have a dog - uh, vehicle - in this fight, but limiting the number of permits per household would be my answer, if someone asked me.

Certainly, there are many families who vacation here in the summer - some ALL summer - that have historically driven on the beach. And then you have the boat launch issue.

I'm just waiting for someone (else) to get run over, and hoping it never happens (again). I do not remember the details and I'm thinking it was at least 25 years ago, but a truck did drive over a sunbather once.

Bobby J · 10-11-2009, 09:16 PM

It seems to me its just a matter of time before we will not be allowed to drive on the beach. Too many people. If anything I think they should do it like they do in St. Augustine. You drive down to the beach but you can not drive up to the water. You park closer to the dune and then walk towards the water. This way everyone gets to enjoy the views and the waterfront does not look like a parking lot. It also would be safer and more people could enjoy the beach instead of this first come first serve atmosphere. We would share space with people instead of four wheel drives.

Geo · 10-11-2009, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby J

It seems to me its just a matter of time before we will not be allowed to drive on the beach. Too many people. If anything I think they should do it like they do in St. Augustine. You drive down to the beach but you can not drive up to the water. You park closer to the dune and then walk towards the water. This way everyone gets to enjoy the views and the waterfront does not look like a parking lot. It also would be safer and more people could enjoy the beach instead of this first come first serve atmosphere. We would share space with people instead of four wheel drives.

I really enjoy driving on the beach and having my dog on the beach. I think our existing rules would serve us well if they were enforced.

Who is behind any proposals for change?

Yzarctoo · 10-12-2009, 08:22 AM

Who is behind any proposals for change?[/quote]

County Commissioners are reading the draft on the 13th at 4, and rumor has it plan to vote on it. You can read the draft ...a link is listed at the beginning of this thread.

Geo · 10-12-2009, 08:29 AM

Link doesn't work. Can someone copy paste the text, please?

Smiling JOe · 10-12-2009, 08:33 AM

A group of people in Grayton Beach are the people who have drafted a proposed change in the ordinance for beach driving permits. Some other lady brought up the dog permit.

Smiling JOe · 10-12-2009, 08:39 AM

Geo, all the links to tonight's BCC agenda are currently broken, so we don't have access to the text.