Bluznbeach

My wife and I have heard that the district attorney has told the beach patrol that the ordinance prohibiting items left on the beaches overnight will no longer be enforced. That would appear to be true, judging by the canopies, chairs, etc sitting on our part of the beach. This would be another big waste of money since the county was spending a lot to put out the word about the policy of removal, which now seems to be dead.

Comments?

scooterbug44

and

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BeachSiO2

The TDC has been removing abandoned items left at County owned public access areas. I have checked to make sure this continues and will post later if I learn something has changed.
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Bluznbeach

We were within about 50 yards of the South Wall Street public access.

BeachSiO2

The county-owned access at Wall Street is only the width of the road so the 50 yards would be outside of those boundries and County ownership.
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kurt

My thought is that most beaches in America (with notable exceptions) are left relatively clean and clear in the evening compared to nearby panhandle beaches. Tourists know that if they leave items on the beach they may not be there in the morning. If they don't remove items they are gathered by local authorities, or people taking it for their own gain. I doubt there are any serious legal concerns with keeping beaches clean.

I'm not sure how we got into this situation where many people who visit here think they can leave their junk on the beach for as long as they want.

I doubt the county has the manpower to handle the load on holiday weekends, or the busy season for that matter. I think the way to end the problem is to make a commitment to funding education and enforcement, hire subcontractors if necessary, and take a hard line for a couple of years until it becomes common knowledge that you must "remove it or lose it".

tsutcli

"I'm not sure how we got into this situation where many people who visit here think they can leave their junk on the beach for as long as they want."

Kurt, I think the problem stems from the perception in visitors minds that this is the "Red Neck Riviera" and so anything goes. That and many of the beach users are "Red Necks" whose own front yards look like junk yards. No pride in their own private property so why would they have any in the public's. Sorry if this sounds like a harsh assessment but true IMO.

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kurt

You may be right about some beaches, but here in SoWal it is more an attitude of, "I am paying a lot of money to you people, I can do what I want". A clear case of bad apples spoiling the bunch.

scooterbug44

Laziness and entitlement both seem to be factors IMO.

And it's definitely not every visitor or tourist. I've seen many people do a great job of cleaning up after themselves - even when that meant toting a double kayak, coolers, and stuff for several kids up and down the multiple flights of stairs each day, so it's definitely DOABLE!

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NotDeadYet

From: Dave Sell <dsell@beachesofsouthwalton.com>
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 08:23:13 -0500
To: Kevin Hargett <harkevin@co.walton.fl.us>
Conversation: items on the beach
Subject: Re: items on the beach

Kevin,
We were instructed b y the county attorney to immediately cease removing items off the beach unless is a hazard.
Dave

Interested Girl

Sounds like Edgewater has won another one.

scooterbug44

What is their definition of "hazard"?

Do I have to actually break a bone tripping over the crap in the dark or would some scrapes, bruises, or a sprain suffice?

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ASH

What disappoints me is the lack of concern for fellow people. Stuff left for days on the beach are also often left indefinitely when they decide to go back to whereever they come from and what are they going to do with 4 beach chairs and a big bucket full of shovels and toys.
So they leave them on the beach thinking they are doing someone a favor by giving them free stuff....except nobody knows they left and soon, everything is washing in the surf.

I can't even begin to wrap my mind around the conscience some must have to quietly bury their empty beer cans or cigarette butts on the same beaches children are playing on.

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Yzarctoo

I feel for the sea turtles who have to twist and turn to get around stuff...or they just give up trying....disappointed in our county also...if you say you are going to pick up stuff then do it!

sunspotbaby

Nothing good can come from this.

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TreeFrog

Is anyone in a position to get a statement from the county attorney as to why this position is being taken?

It would help us all to get this directly...

Interested Girl

The Edgewater lawsuit over the ordinance is the cause. The ordinance is flawed.

Bluznbeach

Yes, especially considering how much they spent sending flyers to homeowners telling them to make sure all the renters knew that the county was going to remove everything (no exceptions) that was left behind on the beaches at night.

Bluznbeach

Can you elaborate on what you know about this lawsuit?

Interested Girl

Edgewater sued over removal of personal property from private property and for the order to remove a volley ball net.

The two sides mer last week in the Judges chambers concerning the basis of the suit and the counties failure to produce certain public records.

30A Skunkape

Should we really be surprised when our marketing efforts to attract those 'too sophisticated' to go to Destin or Panama City succeed and we suffer fools who feel entitled enough to leave a bunch of crap on the beach for a week?

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wrobert

Sounds like a DA with a brain. Especially since you do not know what is private/public so no way of knowing if it is abandoned or not.

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wrobert

Until something is decided about what is private and what is public, what in the world do you expect? Contrary to the wishes of many of the people on this board, Obama has yet to seize private property in this country. Although I imagine if gas keeps going up we will have state owned refineries in the not too distant future.

Plus if the government is going to make the case for public safety, then they are going to have to realize that by issuing stickers to anyone that ask to leave items on the beach, they are in effect, defeating their own argument.

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30A Skunkape

Sounds short sighted and spineless from my perspective. Allowing the beach to look like a refuge camp is unacceptable under any circumstances. Allowing it to go to pot via the inertia of inactivity when the only reason people come to Walton County is to enjoy the beach is so milquetoast...let the beachfront people sue until they get it through their skulls that stuff left out on the sand after the sun sets is abandoned. It isn't too complicated. I am sure things like the volleyball net at Edgewater can be grandfathered in.

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wrobert

What is so hard with this concept? You can not have a different standard for the beach than you do the rest of the county. If I leave something outside in the woods I own after dark, it is not abandoned. My woods, my land, I can leave stuff out overnight if I want too. The same rules apply for the beach if I own it.

Once the public/private beach ownership question is decided, if someone will ever make that decision, the rest will fall into place.

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30A Skunkape

Do you honestly think anyone is so stupid to not be able to get the concept that the beach is just a wee bit different than some random parcel of woods somewhere?

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NotDeadYet

Of course you can. I suppose you don't believe in zoning, either?

You need to go back to the history books. It is beyond me how the concept of private property seems to some people to mean anything goes, just because they own it. The concept of private ownership of property, and the right to sell it or bequeath it, is what this country was founded on, as opposed to limiting property ownership to a monarchy and/or the aristocracy.
While you are studying that history also take a look at the concept of the "commons."

Interested Girl

I have been looking for that clause (wee bit different verbage) on my deed and i cannot locate it. Please refer me to that clause on on your deed so I can make sure I ask my attorney about it.

I sure will be happy when I get this cleared up.

30A Skunkape

Thank you. WRobert might also read up on the 'radical' agendas of Teddy Roosevelt and Abe Lincoln, two great Republicans who 'got it' regarding the fact that some areas of the country are just too special to limit to a select few property owners.

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30A Skunkape

Your deed is obviously defective and your property now ready for Obama to confiscate.

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Interested Girl

OK you obviously have no deed with the "wee bit different clause, how about a case law citation that rules on the "wee bit difference" clause.

Waiting!

30A Skunkape

I didn't realize sock puppets could even own land in this country. God Bless the USA!

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Interested Girl

Still not an answer. Guess there is no such thing as the "wee bit different" legal rule.

TooFarTampa

Sea turtles, for example, don't nest in the woods.

And if a bunch of crap is left in the forest, and no one is around to see it, does it make sense to have it removed? No.

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Interested Girl

And bears don't hibernate on the beach. So what?

TooFarTampa

I don't believe the state is that concerned about hibernating bears. The state is, however, very concerned about sea turtle nests.

FWC - Marine Turtle - Beach Furniture and Sea Turtles

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30A Skunkape

I guess not. Not to worry, the Supreme Court couldn't even define what pornography was, and that body is composed of real live lawyers. Still, they figured that even if they couldn't define it, one knew it if they saw it;the same goes for delusional people who think they can 'own' a chunk (wee or otherwise) of the beach.

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Interested Girl

i think the guiding principle of the ruling was that what is pornographic to one might be art to another. Real Estate law seems to be an area that they have no problem defining.

Sea turtles are always welcome to nest on my property, but that has nothing to do with the issue being discussed in this thread.


I look forward to a definitive ruling. I believe in the legal system and not just some peoples opinion.

rapunzel

Oh, and just curious -- how much revenue does your lot in the woods generate for this county? this state?

Interested Girl

A lott in the woods generates the same amount of revenue per 100,000 in value as a lot on the beach.

Revenue generated on a parcel of land is not germaine to the discussion, surely you don't think that property rights are determined by the revenue strean associated with the parcel.

That would definitely be a strange system of government. Pay less and have fewer protection under the law just doesn't seem fair.

InletBchOwnr

Well, I gotta weigh in here and just say that my family and I believe that the beaches and the natural areas surrounding them are almost sacred land for all of us to ENJOY. I don't know and probably don't care that someone may think "they" own the beach because they don't Watch that sand wash away next hurricane season and then who owns that "land." We walk and pick up trash on whoevers beach property we walk across. We ask people to please remove their stuff from the beach at night due to problems with accidents at night by people walking, to fill in holes, to remember the nesting turtles and their rights, and we don not ask them "who owns this beach?" The county has in our opinion dropped the medicine ball with this non-enforcement if there is a legal leg to stand on. But after watching this county act recently, I think they are all in someone's pocket. As far as blaming Obama, give it a break! Let's blame Dick Cheney instead. Makes as much sense to me.

wrobert

Fords are different than Chevrolets but the same rules apply.

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TooFarTampa

I don't get what the point is here. I don't see how anyone can argue that tons of stuff left on the beach overnight isn't a) bad for tourism; b) bad for emergency vehicles, c) bad for the nesting turtles.

Is a volleyball net more important than any of the above? Clearly no. But I can see why individual property rights are an issue, because of the ridiculous ways various lots have been platted over the years. Are any of the above more important than individual property rights? Definitely (b), and it appears the state wildlife commission could certainly argue for (c). I would think most individual property owners would be concerned about (a).

For those waiting to see how the legal process plays out, how much did you try to work with the county before suing? Or was it just "file a lawsuit and see what happens next?" Right now it appears like a small group of people are yelling at everyone else (including the county) to get off their lawns, at the expense of the greater good.

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Smiling JOe

So if you happen to own the land where the County mistakenly cleared and paved a road for public use, but you have title to the land, can you leave your crap in the middle of the road and expect it to still be there tomorrow?

Land ownership is sometimes clear as mud, and your rights of use for that land even muddier. The way you are talking, the gov't has no control of you dumping hazardous waste on your own property, and they sure as heck wouldn't have any rights to tell you how to use your property, ie- zoning.

Interested Girl, glad you won your case for Edgewater, but how would you suggest rewriting the ordinance? I sure hope you deeded waterfront owners don't have an endangered species die on "your" exclusive beach. I cannot imagine the national press you will receive, though I do know the fines.

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Smiling JOe

I think the Edgewater spokesperson came to the public hearings regarding the issue and asked point blankly if her beach volleyball net would be able to get an exemption because they didn't want to take it down, and she couldn't get a straight answer from the Commissioners, and said that she okay with the ordinance if her beach volleyball net could stay. If it couldn't, she was going to sue.

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TooFarTampa

This particular lawsuit is really all about a volleyball net? Interested girl called this a "win" for Edgewater. Funny, everyone looks like a loser to me.

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BeachSiO2

Based on information I have received, this post (email) pretty much sums up the current status of the program.

Smiling JOe

I believe you mean "Edgewater," home of the volleyball queen. Actually, I like her spunk, but I think her position on the issue is a little stubborn. From all she says in the Commissioner meetings, there is no give on Edgewater's end. She has repeatedly mentioned that Edgewater goes to great lengths to ensure the beach is free of litter and debris every day, and I commend them for that, especially since it IS REQUIRED of all beach venders, though many of the beach venders and the Code Enforcement turn their heads on that part of the Beach Vending Permit clause. I don't go to the beach at Edgewater, so I don't know.

From the way I understood her describing it, Edgewater has a permanent structure for a beach volleyball net/posts (sounded like 6"x6" wooden posts, but I'm not sure.) If that is the case, and it is close to the dune line, I'm not sure how that would be different for Seaturtles and BeachCop vehicles, than a beach walkover with pilings.

It is a shame that they have taken it to this level, if that is the case, but I understand the point. The down side is that doing so effects a totally different issue of all the crap left on the beach every day. I know that Edgewater certainly wouldn't allow people to leave crap on that stretch of beach everyday, so the very narrow focus is very short-sighted in my opinion. We ALL want to maintiain the beautiful beaches which are present. Let's not blow it. Thankfully, many of the locals and visitors don't pay attention to whose property they are collecting trash.

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Smiling JOe

By the way, I need a new beach chair and umbrella, if anyone knows where I can get one.

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TooFarTampa

Thank you, I edited ... got my lawsuits mixed up. I agree with this post above. If the net is a "permanent" structure, then it should have been properly permitted at the time of installation. If it was, it seems like it would be grandfathered in like any other permanent structure. If it wasn't properly permitted when it was installed, then it should be torn down or find a way to grandfather it in, just don't hold up the court system with such nonsense.

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