Lifeguards, Flag System, 20/20

[Paula]

I heard today there were a few more drownings in Panama City Beach by rip tides recently. I don't know if the drownings were during days when a red flag was flying (in which people case should not have gone into the water because of the high hazard). Those of us who rent need to be sure to post the flag system in a prominent place in our rentals and remind people that they indeed need to follow the flag system for their safety and the safety of their children. Some visitors may not understand the flag system or understand the risk they are really taking when they don't pay attention to the flags. As posted on another thread, here's a thread to the flag system that you could download and post:

http://www.seemoresafetycrab.com/

[kurt]

I heard 3 drowned, and many others were rescued in PCB in the last week from rip currents. I assume it was when the water was rough, which has calmed some recently.

A lot of our flagpoles are down.

[geauxfl]

On the ABC news tonight there was a story about Walton County, "Black Sunday" , and rip tides. Tonight's 20/20 will have a story on what to do if you get caught in a rip tide.

[kurt]

Local officials are warning swimmers of strong rip currents in the Gulf of Mexico due to recent storms.
“[The rip current] has changed since pre-Ivan,” Shift District Chief Mark Anderson, South Walton Fire Department, said.
The South Walton Fire Department responded to a call Wednesday at Topsail Hill Preserve State Park. An unidentified man caught in the rip current was able to swim to shore on his own, but needed additional treatment due to over exertion. It was the fifth near drowning in South Walton County in two days.
The fire department had responded to four calls at Ed Walline Park the day before.


Learn about rip currents (http://www.sowal.com/bb/showthread.php?t=320&highlight=currents)

[sunsetdunes]

See this 20/20 story that was on tonight about Walton County not reponding to the need for lifeguards on the beaches:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=965757&page=1

[GVM]

ABC's 20/20 feature on rip currents was informative. The chairman of the Walton County Commission couldn't have done a worse job in the interview with correspondent Brian Ross, who hammered him over the lack of lifeguards. There are good arguments on both sides of the life guards or no life guards issue...none of which were articulated by the chariman. Thoroughly unprepared for prime time.

[Kim Smith]

I just watched the special on 20/20 and I am appalled at the county commissioner's responses to putting life guards on the beaches. One actually came on national TV and said well, my best advice is don't go in the water. I pay over $7000.00 a year to the county taxes for a piece of land that is the size of a postage stamp and they are saying it is too expensive. My daughter and family members got caught in one over 4th of July week and luckily my brother in law knew what to do, but he had to make the decision, do I help my daughter or do I help my son who is getting pulled another direction. I believe Walton County Commissioners had better change some of their thinking. What can we do to get them to see the importance. As in previous threads, I would much rather see a life guard on the beach than some police officers sitting in their cars in the middle of 98.

[sunsetdunes]

I just watched the special on 20/20 and I am appalled at the county commissioner's responses to putting life guards on the beaches. One actually came on national TV and said well, my best advice is don't go in the water. I pay over $7000.00 a year to the county taxes for a piece of land that is the size of a postage stamp and they are saying it is too expensive. My daughter and family members got caught in one over 4th of July week and luckily my brother in law knew what to do, but he had to make the decision, do I help my daughter or do I help my son who is getting pulled another direction. I believe Walton County Commissioners had better change some of their thinking. What can we do to get them to see the importance. As in previous threads, I would much rather see a life guard on the beach than some police officers sitting in their cars in the middle of 98.

I've been hammering at the TDC for two years about lifeguards, and I just got ignored. Walton County Commissioners have had their heads stuck in the sand for too long. I hope this story will shake them up.

After all, one of the guys who drowned was a former CNN correspondent! No wonder the media sat up and took notice when his wife spoke up.

[BeachDreamer]

It's always heartbreaking when someone drowns. My heart goes out to these families who've lost their husbands/fathers.

The article does make Walton County sound callous and uncaring... but it's sad that people can ignore flag warnings, go in the water, and then blame others when they get into trouble. Educating yourself is your own responsibility. We educated ourselves thoroughly on riptides, sharks, jellyfish, sand dunes and sea turtles before ever stepping foot on a beach. I don't understand why people want to remain ignorant of such things, when entering unknown territory. People in the water swimming with double red flags flying? That just blows my mind. If any of them were harmed, they'd be pointing their fingers at others faster than you can say "Call ABC!".

[kurt]

Many people have been forced out of the water, only to immediately return and die. You can post signs, flags, lifeguards every 50 feet and people will still enter the water and people will still die.

A Panama City official recently said, "We just don't have the resources. And if we did, we still might not be in the right place at the right time. So we do what we can through education and hope people take note".

Nevertheless, lifeguards will probably happen someday, as a reaction to the feeling of helplesness at the loss of life, and in the understood hope of saving just one life.

Vote in the polls:

http://www.sowal.com/bb/showthread.php?p=7673

http://www.sowal.com/bb/showthread.php?t=402

[kurt]

ABC's 20/20 feature on rip currents was informative. The chairman of the Walton County Commission couldn't have done a worse job in the interview with correspondent Brian Ross, who hammered him over the lack of lifeguards. There are good arguments on both sides of the life guards or no life guards issue...none of which were articulated by the chariman. Thoroughly unprepared for prime time.

I didn't see the piece, but I assume it was the same old tired formula, in which it is ABC's goal to make him look the fool, and it is his destiny to be the fool. Blame must be placed, and the Gulf Of Mexico was not available for interviews.

Whether you feel one way or the other about the issue, you have to admit this headline from ABC is ridiculous:
Dangerous Currents Stalk Florida Panhandle

And I thought it was sharks that were stalking us. :roll:

[Miss Kitty]

Sharks, storms, drownings, beach erosion, dunes collapsing, over-priced real estate, trash/debris on the beach, tents, seaweed, Hwy. 98, and now ABC!!! Pretty soon, there will be a lawsuit against the Gulf of Mexico! Go ahead, bring it on, SoWal is still the best place on earth for me!

How about this? Before you can go down to the beach, you must study the rules and then take a test to see if you have some sense!!! We just got back from Yellowstone and I can tell you we read and learned the rules set out for tourists! It doesn't hurt to be told over and over again to not feed the bears!!

I say (don't be offended please) ban the tents and try out lifeguards for a while! Does anyone know the standard distance between lifeguard stations? I read that the flag poles were still down in some places...still true?

When are the next commisioner elections? That poor dude....was that the best Walton Co. could do? "Don't go in the water."....maybe his next post could be with the tourist council! YIKES!

[Bluznbeach]

I didn't see the piece, but I assume it was the same old tired formula, in which it is ABC's goal to make him look the fool, and it is his destiny to be the fool. Blame must be placed, and the Gulf Of Mexico was not available for interviews.

Whether you feel one way or the other about the issue, you have to admit this headline from ABC is ridiculous:
Dangerous Currents Stalk Florida Panhandle

And I thought it was sharks that were stalking us. :roll:
Sorry, Kurt, but as much as I appreciate and admire this board, the headline was NOT ridiculous and the piece did NOT follow some "old tired formula." What's ridiculous is that the county has done absolutely nothing about this when the need for lifeguards was obvious long ago. Blaming ABC, the Gulf of Mexico, the visitors themselves, or each other :laughing1 isn't going to solve this problem.

Of course people who use the beaches are responsible for their own actions and should obey the flags. But is it right to have them dying when lifeguards could make a real difference? ABC pointed out that lifeguards saved a lot of people in Daytona, which also has rip currents. I've been to guarded beaches on the Delaware / Maryland / Virginia coast where the waves are as big as any on the Panhandle, and where no one has drowned in decades.

Rip currents kill more people than sharks or hurricanes. Lifeguards may not be able to prevent every drowning but they can sure improve the odds. And as a property owner, I'm more than willing to pay my share of the cost. It would just about kill me if anything happened to one of my renters. Would any of us want to face Sandee Lamotte -- or, God forbid, the family of a future victim -- and tell them their loved one's life wasn't worth the expense?

[sunsetdunes]

I didn't see the piece, but I assume it was the same old tired formula, in which it is ABC's goal to make him look the fool, and it is his destiny to be the fool. Blame must be placed, and the Gulf Of Mexico was not available for interviews.

Whether you feel one way or the other about the issue, you have to admit this headline from ABC is ridiculous:
Dangerous Currents Stalk Florida Panhandle

And I thought it was sharks that were stalking us. :roll:

Kurt, with all due respect, this headline is probably the most accurate assessment of the biggest threat to swimmers along coastlines. I read a recent New York Times article which documented that more people are killed in rip currents each year than from any other hazard.

Point two: some flag poles were destroyed during Arlene, and most of the rest were taken out by Dennis. Without warning flags, the beach becomes even more dangerous to tourists.

No matter how any of us may feel about the stupidity of entering the water on a red flag, people do not deserve to die from ignorance, particularly children and teenagers. And rip currents can form even when the flags are yellow or green.

Lifeguards not only can save lives, but they can help educate people to the dangers. And if a lifeguard catches someone in the water on a double red flag, who resists their "advice" to leave the water, that person would be subject to a fine, according to my understanding of local ordinances.

Budgeting for lifeguards does not have to cost anything to property owners. Walton County can pass along any costs via the bed tax. It's my understanding that neighboring counties have already raised their bed tax higher than ours anyway.

I agree with Bluznbeach on this one.

[Camp Creek Kid]

I still say it is the individual's responsibility to stay safe. A few years ago we had family visiting during a week when there were red flag conditions. My brother-in-law insisted on taking his 3 very small children to the beach so they could boogie board on the "big waves." I repeatedly warned him of the dangers and told him specifically of the 8 drownings that had, at that time, just happened. He didn't care. He did take his kids to the beach and they boogie boarded for hours, had a great time, and were safe. Its like Russian Roulette though. This guy is a good dad who wouldn't leave the driveway without his kids in carseats.

I think lifeguards might help at the major beach accesses, but there is no way to patrol the entire beach. People like my brother-in-law are going to do what they want to do and won't listen to a lifeguard anyway.

[sunsetdunes]

I still say it is the individual's responsibility to stay safe. A few years ago we had family visiting during a week when there were red flag conditions. My brother-in-law insisted on taking his 3 very small children to the beach so they could boogie board on the "big waves." I repeatedly warned him of the dangers and told him specifically of the 8 drownings that had, at that time, just happened. He didn't care. He did take his kids to the beach and they boogie boarded for hours, had a great time, and were safe. Its like Russian Roulette though. This guy is a good dad who wouldn't leave the driveway without his kids in carseats.

I think lifeguards might help at the major beach accesses, but there is no way to patrol the entire beach. People like my brother-in-law are going to do what they want to do and won't listen to a lifeguard anyway.

People can drown from rip currents even when the flag is flying yellow or green. It takes time for the flags to be changed when the surf conditions change. They don't change like a traffic light. Lifeguards are needed as part of the safety system.

In many beach communities, penalties may be imposed for failing to immediately obey all orders, direction whistles or other signals by lifeguards.

Walton County could enact similar laws that makes it mandatory to obey the lifeguard or the sheriff will be called.

[Bob]

I still say it is the individual's responsibility to stay safe. A few years ago we had family visiting during a week when there were red flag conditions. My brother-in-law insisted on taking his 3 very small children to the beach so they could boogie board on the "big waves." I repeatedly warned him of the dangers and told him specifically of the 8 drownings that had, at that time, just happened. He didn't care. He did take his kids to the beach and they boogie boarded for hours, had a great time, and were safe. Its like Russian Roulette though. This guy is a good dad who wouldn't leave the driveway without his kids in carseats.

I think lifeguards might help at the major beach accesses, but there is no way to patrol the entire beach. People like my brother-in-law are going to do what they want to do and won't listen to a lifeguard anyway.50 people in 5 years drown in the area. Individual responsibility? Wow!

[kurt]

This board is about all our opinions and knowledge, mine is not any more important than anyone elses.

I'm not saying the the basis for the story is ridiculous, and I see both side of the issue. I'm saying rip tides don't "stalk". Anthropomorphism used in a completely innapropriate way to sensationalize a story and prey on the public's primal fears, inciting those fears to sell advertisements and increase profits.

The culture of fear produces and devours headlines like that. Don't give in to unreasonable fears, like hurricanes, sharks, snakes, currents, mold, or sushi. If driving a car was a primal fear, we'd never leave the house. Be a little more skeptical about the content and the motives. Keep things in perspective.

[dusty]

I saw the story on 20/20 and it was presented in a sensationalistic fashion.

It is very sad that the former CNN correspondent lost his life. From what I read on another message board, the correspondent was already pulled from the water earlier that day...but allowed his kids to boogie board and that is what had him go back in the water. I do not think 20/20 told that he had already been pulled from the water...

So, as sad as it is, is the point of the story that someone who needed to be pulled out of the water already needs a lifeguard there to admonish them to stay out of the water and to keep his kids out of the water?

I have noticed the Seemore Crab info in the few times I have been there the past few years. Maybe it is too 'friendly' for the average person to understand about rip currents?

[SHELLY]

Did anyone catch the story on 20/20 about riptides and the absence of life guards in South Walton on 20/20 last night (July22)? Didn't make South Walton look too concerned about the safety of visitors. When the interviewer asked what South Walton was doing to protect swimmers the response was, "Well, we've got Seymore the Crab," and then 20/20 cut to the goofy cartoon of the crab talking about beach safety. :floor:

Then rest of the interview went something like this:

20/20: Are you planning on hiring lifeguards?
SOWAL: Uh, yeah, sometime
20/20: When? This year?
SOWAL: Uh, no, probably not this year, maybe next year.
20/20: What should tourists do to ensure their safety until you get lifeguards?
SOWAL: They should stay out of the water. :blink:

Priceless! :shock:

[sunsetdunes]

I've been reading the thread about the flag warning systems. It is obvious to me that the colored flag warnings are not very effective at preventing drownings in the gulf.
What I would prefer to discuss is what IS effective.

Sandee LaMott, the wife of the retired CNN correspondent who drowned at Grayton Beach, happens to work for WebMD. There is a really excellent article on the WebMD web site about rip currents and lifeguards. The entire article is here: http://my.webmd.com/content/Article/66/79889.htm?printing=true

It also contains excellent information on what to do if you or someone else is caught in a rip current.

The article, dated Tuesday, June 17, 2003, says:

About 12 Americans drown every day. Yet on beaches protected by lifeguards, the odds of drowning are one in 16 million, according to the U.S. Lifeguard Association. That's five times safer than on unprotected beaches.

Unfortunately, in these days of cuts in government services, fewer and fewer beaches employ trained lifeguards.

"The one factor that is most tragic about rip-current deaths is they wouldn't happen if there were lifeguards," Wernicki says. (Peter Wernicki, MD, is medical advisor to the U.S. and World Lifesaving Associations.)

"I think a large number of people who go to the beach are from inland. They are not good swimmers; they are not familiar with ocean currents. They don't have a clue what to do in an emergency. I think they are lured onto unprotected beaches. 'Come to our beach, it is clean,' they say. But maybe if they were better informed they would choose to go to beaches with lifeguards."

Sandee LaMotte is angry. She is working to get Florida municipalities to pass "Larry's Law" -- requiring lifeguards on all public beaches.
"The current lack of protection is just callous disregard for human life," she says. "It has to change."

B. Chris Brewster, retired San Diego lifeguard chief and national certification committee chair for the U.S. Lifesaving Association, is widely regarded as an expert on rip currents. He has been working for years to get Florida Gulf coast municipalities to establish lifeguards. Last week, the mayor and fire chief of Destin, Fla., spoke with him about establishing a lifeguard service. Most other northwest Florida communities, he says, haven't been as cooperative.

"It is my personal judgment that these communities are not going to change until forced to do so, shamed to do so -- which would take a lot -- or until they feel economically compelled to do so," Brewster says.

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with any of the individuals named in the story above and have never met any of them. But I think their case is very convincing and as a Walton County property owner, I fully support what Sandee LaMotte wants to accomplish. I hope that others will stand behind her in demanding safer beaches for our tourists in Walton County.

Having lifeguards does not have to cost property owners anything. The tourist development tax (or "bed tax" as it is known) could be used to pass the costs on to the tourist.

I can anticipate the argument that "people won't pay any attention to lifeguards." No, not if the county simply hires them and doesn't give them any authority. But many beach communities make it a violation of the law to disobey a lifeguard, and Walton County could do the same.

We have waited far too long to act on this problem. ABC's 20/20 last night has cast a cloud over Walton County and the county commisioner's interview in that televised news story makes the county appear callous, uninformed, and indifferent to the problem.

Just my 2 cents.

[Camp Creek Kid]

50 people in 5 years drown in the area. Individual responsibility? Wow!


My brother-in-law had all the information about the dangers indicated by the red flags and he still CHOSE to go into the water. It was his responsibility. I have children the same age and I CHOSE to keep them off the beach.

There would have to be a lifeguard every 200 yards to patrol the entire beach. You can have lifeguards, laws, fines, jail time, etc. and that is still not going to prevent every drowning. People will find ways to get around every law and go into the water when they shouldn't. People disobey laws all the time--speeding, seat belts, running stop signs, etc. I understand that many of the drownings have occurred without warning and I agree that lifeguards would help in some situations.

I had a two-year-old son who almost drowned in a public pool even though he was 5 feet from a lifeguard. I am the one who pulled my son out of the water. If I had relied on the lifeguard to protect him, my child wouldn't be alive today.

We have choices and we have consequences. We are responsible for our own actions.

[sunsetdunes]

I had a two-year-old son who almost drowned in a public pool even though he was 5 feet from a lifeguard. I am the one who pulled my son out of the water. If I had relied on the lifeguard to protect him, my child wouldn't be alive today.

We have choices and we have consequences. We are responsible for our own actions.

If we follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, we would eliminate lifeguards, seatbelts, testing of prescription drugs before they are put on the market, the USDA food inspection to keep the food supply safe, and anything else designed to improve human safety. :bang:

[photocat]

I have to agree with Camp Creek Kid on this one. Lifeguards won't keep all people from drowning in rip currents. Period.

Sure, they may help and they may save a few lives but it won't solve the problem entirely and believing that throwing a few lifeguards on the beach would all of a sudden make the beach "safe" isn't realistic. It could perhaps create a false sense of security too - maybe have the opposite effect - who knows.

Now, that isn't to say there shouldn't be lifeguards, or seatbelt laws, etc. There should but what I hear Camp Creek saying (and believe whole-heartedly) is people will do whatever they set their minds to. A lot of these individuals also do not take responsibility for their actions and look to blame someone or something else when their actions backfire. And if you don't believe me - work all day long with the public in any type of customer service job you can find - after a few days, you'll change your mind :lol:

So bottomline - if lifeguards can save some lives - great all for it but they aren't the magic pill and some lives will still be lost, whether they are there or not.

[sunsetdunes]

This board is about all our opinions and knowledge, mine is not any more important than anyone elses.

I'm not saying the the basis for the story is ridiculous, and I see both side of the issue. I'm saying rip tides don't "stalk". Anthropomorphism used in a completely innapropriate way to sensationalize a story and prey on the public's primal fears, inciting those fears to sell advertisements and increase profits.

The culture of fear produces and devours headlines like that. Don't give in to unreasonable fears, like hurricanes, sharks, snakes, currents, mold, or sushi. If driving a car was a primal fear, we'd never leave the house. Be a little more skeptical about the content and the motives. Keep things in perspective.

Kurt, we *are* trying to keep things in perspective. Fear of having children drown is not even slightly irrational. After motor vehicle related deaths, drowning is the second leading cause of injury death for children.

As for hair-splitting about the use of the word stalking: Stalking may not be completely correctly used in their headline, but referring to their use of it as "anthropomorphism" isn't exactly correct either. Anthropomorphism is the attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena. Since animals stalk as well as humans, it's not technically anthropomorphism to use the term "stalking". :D (Though there may well be another more correct term for it.)

Sometimes it takes headlines like this to get people's attention in all the noise of everyday life. Maybe it's not technically correct to use "stalking", but once you see the story as it is reported, you realize, yes, there IS a problem here, and it's much greater than sharks, etc.

The problem is indifference on the part of the county to reducing the risk of drowning, and 20/20 pointed that out very accurately, in my opinion.

[OhioBeachBum]

This board is about all our opinions and knowledge, mine is not any more important than anyone elses.

I'm not saying the the basis for the story is ridiculous, and I see both side of the issue. I'm saying rip tides don't "stalk". Anthropomorphism used in a completely innapropriate way to sensationalize a story and prey on the public's primal fears, inciting those fears to sell advertisements and increase profits.

The culture of fear produces and devours headlines like that. Don't give in to unreasonable fears, like hurricanes, sharks, snakes, currents, mold, or sushi. If driving a car was a primal fear, we'd never leave the house. Be a little more skeptical about the content and the motives. Keep things in perspective.
Bingo. Media is very much about spin. Spin is about evoking emotion, not conveying fact.

[Linda]

Bingo. Media is very much about spin. Spin is about evoking emotion, not conveying fact.

Bill O'Reilly would be proud!

[SHELLY]

>>Sure, they may help and they may save a few lives but it won't solve the problem entirely <<

But if one of the lives they do save just happens to be an innocent child whose parents are just, plan stupid--I think that it is worth it.

I've seen people take their toddler in the water when a red flag was flying and EMS was performing CPR on a drowning victim just a few yards away--to admit on national TV that a hokey cartoon crab (Seemore) is the best South Walton can do to protect visitors is beyond insane (but insanely cheap).

On the other hand, how much would the county have to pay these lifeguards to live in the "high rent" South Walton district?? (Certainly more than $10-12 per hour) Truth be told, I think that is what is stopping the county from hiring lifeguards in the first place.

When addressing water safey it stands to reason that a lifeguard on the beach (even if they only help to save a few lives) is more feasible than a cartoon crab on the TV back at the condo.

[chrisv]

Ok, I'm gonna just say it: Cops don't prevent crime or vehicle accidents, ski patrollers don't keep skiers from hitting trees and getting caught in avalanches, and lifeguards cannot prevent drownings or shark attacks. I know, I've been in both of the latter professions. We can put in lifeguards for a "feel-good" measure, but the bottom line is that we will still have victims of bad individual choices or pure bad luck. Families of drowning victims (and the press) are not more accepting of their tragedy because the beach was "protected by lifeguards."

[Tootsie]

See this 20/20 story that was on tonight about Walton County not reponding to the need for lifeguards on the beaches:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=965757&page=1


I didn’t see 20/20, but I read the “Dangerous Stalking Current” article, and found that it was unbalanced and incomplete – not surprising :roll: . Anyone who lives here understands that the issue of protecting visitors to our beaches is much more complex and is currently being addressed by Walton County officials (including lifeguards). Very poor media coverage - just about as lopsided as possible!

The flag system and education/awareness campaigns over the last few years have been an important part of addressing the beach safety issue. Certainly more needs to be done, and I am confident that Walton County will find the best solutions that are right for our beach community (we are not Daytona Beach here) and implement them. :cool:

[dusty]

The article is pretty much the transcript from the show--what you don't get are the voice inflections, the graphics, etc. At least they help those who saw the program understand what to do if caught in a rip tide.

[Mystic Beach]

I think we would save more lives if side-impact airbags were required on every vehicle sold, rather than requiring life-guards on the beaches.

[FoX]

Kurt, we *are* trying to keep things in perspective. Fear of having children drown is not even slightly irrational. After motor vehicle related deaths, drowning is the second leading cause of injury death for children.


Did Kurt use the the term irrational? Do you mean unreasonable? I think there is a difference. Keep splitting those hairs.


As for hair-splitting about the use of the word stalking: Stalking may not be completely correctly used in their headline, but referring to their use of it as "anthropomorphism" isn't exactly correct either. Anthropomorphism is the attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena. Since animals stalk as well as humans, it's not technically anthropomorphism to use the term "stalking". :D (Though there may well be another more correct term for it.)


I don't think you're splitting hairs. I think you're contradicting yourself. The portion in bold italics is a standard definition, and stalking is a human behavior, which means Kurt used the term properly. If you're one of our many SoWal realtors who used to be a former elementary school english teacher, I can understand your comment even if incorrect, otherwise it's a pretty weak comeback.


Sometimes it takes headlines like this to get people's attention in all the noise of everyday life.

That is pathetic.


The problem is indifference on the part of the county to reducing the risk of drowning, and 20/20 pointed that out very accurately, in my opinion.

Oh! So the problem is not people actually drowning or the lack of lifeguards, but the county's indifference?:roll: Do you have an axe to grind with the county and were happy to see us ridiculed? You're welcome to sell your property and buy a rental in a community which currently has lifeguards.

[BeachDreamer]

It isn't unreasonable to want lifeguards on the public beaches. It is unreasonable to say that people died because there weren't any there.

I knew a man who was killed in an avalanche while mountain climbing. There were warnings that day, stating that avalanches were moderately likely, but he went climbing regardless. He was not killed by the lack of rangers in the area preventing people from climbing. He was killed by being in an area where avalanches were warned to be moderately likely.

[Tootsie]

Fox... dude... lay off. :blink:

Relax and allow all to express themselves as they will... ;-)

[drsvelte]

Prepare for more incoming...

"Shark Attack: Predator in the Panhandle" tonight at 9:00pm on the Discovery Channnel.

[drsvelte]

I have been caught in two rips on Emerald Coast. The first was during the Gulf Coast triathlon in 1993 or 1994 at Panama City Beach. We had an out-and-back swim of 1.2 miles. The “out” part seemed to go OK, but when I turned to return it was if I was absolutely swimming in place. I made little headway to the shore and was confused because of this. Finally, a swim marshal in a kayak directed me to swim laterally to shore and then to the beach and I finally made it in. It took me around 50 minutes for that swim, when a distance of 1.2 would normally take in the mid-20’s. I was totally exhausted, never recovered, and it turned out to be my slowest half-Ironman triathlon ever.

The next time I encountered a rip I knew a little bit of what to expect and how to react. It was during a triathlon held at Seaside in November. When we started the race we were pulled out by a rip at an amazing pace as I recall – we were out a 1/8th mile in no time – literally seconds. I turned parallel to the shore, and ultimately rounded the final buoy to go in and ended up with my fastest time ever in a .5M swim.

Obviously, I can testify that rips can be a problem even for someone with decent swim skills. For a tourist, without knowledge of the Gulf and local conditions, and limited swimming skills, I’m sure it must be a terrifying experience.

Fundamentally, I do agree with those that argue that this is a matter of personal responsibility. But, pragmatically, I think perhaps something more can be done than our friendly crab. I would think that a pilot program of lifeguards at the major public beach accesses in SoWal might be considered. Say what?

[Tootsie]

Fundamentally, I do agree with those that argue that this is a matter of personal responsibility. But, pragmatically, I think perhaps something more can be done than our friendly crab. I would think that a pilot program of lifeguards at the major public beach accesses in SoWal might be considered. Say what?


very reasonable suggestion. I have read local news reports in the last few months that Walton County is considering options for lifeguard programs. But none have been approved as far as I know. I hope SWFD will develop a beach patrol/lifeguard program that will provide highly effective patrol and rescue - making it worth the investment.

[kurt]

How much do lifeguards earn?

[luvthebeach]

I personally would hate to see lifeguards stationed on our beaches. One of the things we love most about our beaches is being able to enjoy the beauty and sereness without being watched over. Folks surely know that danger exists if you venture out too far into the ocean. Educating the public is the key. We already have the flags out that warn of danger. Parents are responsible for their children; putting a lifeguard out there may just give some parents a false sense of security. I personally love things just the way they are!! :D

[Waterman]

I personally would hate to see lifeguards stationed on our beaches. One of the things we love most about our beaches is being able to enjoy the beauty and sereness without being watched over. Folks surely know that danger exists if you venture out too far into the ocean. Educating the public is the key. We already have the flags out that warn of danger. Parents are responsible for their children; putting a lifeguard out there may just give some parents a false sense of security. I personally love things just the way they are!! :D

I feel as though I need to pipe in on the issue. So, here it is! When school is out for summer break, I think that lifeguards should be on the beach for the childrens safety. Here in SoCal, we have lifeguards on the beach all summer. Summer only, with a warning on the beach that No lifeguard is present during non-summer times. Bottom line is, you cannot rely on kids to make a decision for themselves, the parents need to educate them of the dangers, and follow up by supervising them at all times near the water.

[Smiling JOe]

(Regarding kids) the parents need to educate them of the dangers, and follow up by supervising them at all times near the water.
The real isssue at hand? Have more people been taking off those thinking caps? :idontno:

[Smiling JOe]

How much do lifeguards earn?
Great question. My guess for this area would be around $8.50 per hour, but I don't imagine the County will be hiring, firing, training, supervising, etc the lifeguards. I think we will see someone get a contract to staff lifeguards at particular locations along the beaches. This has been coming for a long time, and I think we will see something soon. If you don't want them, I suggest you begin a strong campaign against them. It is only a matter of time. My guess is that the County will use a bed tax to pay for them, so money is not an issue.

Other questions I have are who is getting the contract for the Lifeguard Services? How will we find enough 16 year olds in this area who are willing to except the Lifeguard wages? Do the 16 yr old lifeguards call the Sheriff's Office to issue tickets when the public ignores their warnings? ...

[ShallowsNole]

As has been asked earlier, how much should a lifeguard earn? Where are they supposed to come from? My guess is that we would need to tap the 16 – 21 year old surfer crowd. This is appropriate, as they know our beach better than most people do.

But, when we get the young lifeguards, would our vacationers actually listen to them? Probably not as well as many of them listen to our sheriff’s deputies and SWFD personnel when they try to enforce the flag system, which in general isn’t very well. The "false sense of security" issue is very real, too.

Then, what happens when one of our county-employed lifeguards drowns trying to save someone? During “Black Sunday,” several of our emergency response personnel were almost overcome. Who gets the lawsuit and the liability then?

I don’t know what the answer is, but I’m almost inclined to follow the advice of our BCC Chairman. Stay out of the water, or if you do go in, don’t try to swim out to Cuba. Up to your waist is plenty deep to cool off and enjoy our Gulf.

[Tootsie]

"The Destin Beach Safety Patrol was initiated by Chief Tuffy Dixon of the Destin Fire Control District in Destin, Florida. Chief Dixon was deeply moved to action on a day that he could not ignore as a professional firefighter and a human being. Chief Dixon began the Destin Beach Safety Patrol days after June 8th, 2003. It was on this day that the lives of 9 families, that were visiting on vacation on June 8th, 2003, would also be changed forever. Tragically, 9 people lost their lives in the Gulf of Mexico that year. The beaches of Destin, Walton County and Pensacola all suffered the tragic loss of life of loved ones and friends. "


for info about Destin's Beach Safety Patrol Program (http://www.destinbeachsafety.com/html/about.html)

[Bob]

This board is about all our opinions and knowledge, mine is not any more important than anyone elses.

I'm not saying the the basis for the story is ridiculous, and I see both side of the issue. I'm saying rip tides don't "stalk". Anthropomorphism used in a completely innapropriate way to sensationalize a story and prey on the public's primal fears, inciting those fears to sell advertisements and increase profits.

The culture of fear produces and devours headlines like that. Don't give in to unreasonable fears, like hurricanes, sharks, snakes, currents, mold, or sushi. If driving a car was a primal fear, we'd never leave the house. Be a little more skeptical about the content and the motives. Keep things in perspective.
I must admit to admiring generators more when at Home Depot. Jim Cantore, where are you!?

[Bob]

My brother-in-law had all the information about the dangers indicated by the red flags and he still CHOSE to go into the water. It was his responsibility. I have children the same age and I CHOSE to keep them off the beach.

There would have to be a lifeguard every 200 yards to patrol the entire beach. You can have lifeguards, laws, fines, jail time, etc. and that is still not going to prevent every drowning. People will find ways to get around every law and go into the water when they shouldn't. People disobey laws all the time--speeding, seat belts, running stop signs, etc. I understand that many of the drownings have occurred without warning and I agree that lifeguards would help in some situations.

I had a two-year-old son who almost drowned in a public pool even though he was 5 feet from a lifeguard. I am the one who pulled my son out of the water. If I had relied on the lifeguard to protect him, my child wouldn't be alive today.

We have choices and we have consequences. We are responsible for our own actions. Anyone, I mean anyone who has witnessed a lifeguard save someone caught in a rip current[we used to say undertow] could not possibly take your side of the argument. Not anyone standing on the beach, and certainly not the potential victim. I have seen dozens of people rescued from drowning and I'll never forget the images of those folks stumbling back onto the beach. Minimum wage young men and women performing heroic acts. What is one life worth? This has got to be the one of the bigger no-brainers.

[Smiling JOe]

Anyone, I mean anyone who has witnessed a lifeguard save someone caught in a rip current[we used to say undertow] could not possibly take your side of the argument. Not anyone standing on the beach, and certainly not the potential victim. I have seen dozens of people rescued from drowning and I'll never forget the images of those folks stumbling back onto the beach. Minimum wage young men and women performing heroic acts. What is one life worth? This has got to be the one of the bigger no-brainers.
FYI - undertow and ripcurrents are two seperate things. We have mostly ripcurrents in this area.

I don't know of any surfers around here who would be willing to give up surfing for minimum wage and work. People in So Wal have difficulty getting drunk people to show up to work for $15/hr, and even then, they won't work after noon on Friday, forget weekends, and sit still in the hot sun -- well, maybe with a 12-pack of Bud.

[Beach Runner]

I've seen the arguments against having lifeguards, and I hear where you're coming from. Some have said to stay in shallow water to protect yourself. But I've heard of drownings where people were caught up in a rip current starting in relatively shallow water.

I'm a pretty good swimmer, and I think that I understand the strategy for saving myself from a rip current. I'm just not strong enough to save someone else. However, if I were to see someone I love having trouble in the water, of course I would risk my life to try to save him/her. Unfortunately we'd probably both go under. This is where a lifeguard would help. He/she would hopefully have the training and the strength to save another human being. At some beaches, lifeguards have SeeDoo's so they can get to an endangered swimmer much faster than someone could swim to them.

Yet another dilemma! Both sides of the argument have valid points.

[Camp Creek Kid]

Anyone, I mean anyone who has witnessed a lifeguard save someone caught in a rip current[we used to say undertow] could not possibly take your side of the argument. Not anyone standing on the beach, and certainly not the potential victim. I have seen dozens of people rescued from drowning and I'll never forget the images of those folks stumbling back onto the beach. Minimum wage young men and women performing heroic acts. What is one life worth? This has got to be the one of the bigger no-brainers.


Bob, you are completely misrepresenting my arguement. I did not say that lifeguards aren't beneficial nor did I say that they shouldn't be implemented. My arguement is that lifeguards are not going to prevent every drowning and that it should be our first responsiblity to protect ourselves and our families from dangerous gulf conditions.

The "no brainer" is that I'm not going to rely on a 16 year old kid to keep my family safe. If a lifeguard makes you feel safer then more power to you.

[Smiling JOe]

There is nothing like a few shark attacks to keep people out of the ripcurrents. Any thoughts on bringing sharks closer to the beach to help prevent more drownings. Afterall, as I predicted, we have had more deaths from drownings than from shark bites this year. What do you say? :idontno:

[luvthebeach]

The bigger question is.....will a 16 year old earning $8.50/hr be willing (or brave enough!) to attempt to save a victim from the jaws of a shark? We're not talking your average swimming pool lifeguard duties here.

Now....if we could get a few David Hasselhoff-type lifeguards on the beach, that might be another story! :wub:

[Sea Turtle]

Can anyone bring back that mind control photo of David Hasselhoff wearing a David Hasselhoff bikini on a David Hasselhoff bikini on a David Hasselhoff bikini ...... :shock:

[Smiling JOe]

Now....if we could get a few David Hasselhoff-type lifeguards on the beach, that might be another story! :wub:
Even if you paid lifeguards annual salary of $30,000 each, where would they live?

[kathydwells]

Even if you paid lifeguards annual salary of $30,000 each, where would they live?

I was wondering the same thing SJ.

[TooFarTampa]

Even if you paid lifeguards annual salary of $30,000 each, where would they live?


It seems to me that it would be reasonable to have trained college kids working the beaches in the summer, but you'd have to have dorm-like facilities for them to stay in. I don't think the area has enough trained kids (who could drive in and out every day) to support the demand for lifeguards. There definitely would need to be a formal program with recruiting and housing. I'm not opposed to it at all. In fact I think it's a great idea. But putting such a program together is a challenge and will take some time to plan and execute.

[drsvelte]

There definitely would need to be a formal program with recruiting and housing. I'm not opposed to it at all. In fact I think it's a great idea. But putting such a program together is a challenge and will take some time to plan and execute.

Sandestin recently built dormitory/appartment housing for some of their employees.

[luvthebeach]

Even if you paid lifeguards annual salary of $30,000 each, where would they live?

If it's David Hasselhoff, he's welcome to stay at our place! :laughing1

[beachmouse]

As has been asked earlier, how much should a lifeguard earn? Where are they supposed to come from? My guess is that we would need to tap the 16 – 21 year old surfer crowd. This is appropriate, as they know our beach better than most people do.



The local surfer crowd is already pretty tapped out for those kinds of jobs. Foreign college kids already do a lot of the lifeguarding in Okaloosa and Escambia counties- seems like they're commonly from places like Poland, England, and former Yugoslavian and Soviet republics. And regardless of citizenship or nationality, everyone has to meet the same standards to get a lifeguarding job in those places.

[ShallowsNole]

Back to the $30K salary issue, bear in mind that's not too far from what a beginning Walton County deputy sheriff makes. Starting salary for a City of DeFuniak Springs police officer is $22K. :roll:

So, not only would it not make sense (in my mind, anyway) to pay them $30K, they most definitely don't have anywhere to live.

There has got to be an answer, but I don't know what it is.

[Kimmifunn]

30k! To sit on the beach and flirt with the opposite sex? Wow!!! If I was 21 with a lifeguard job I would probably party all night, show up to work hungover, complain about my hangover and recover all day- In the mean time make plans for the upcoming evening. 30k comes out to about 2k a month...Is that a lot for a college summer job? :idontno: I understand they are there to lives...but that would sound like a killer summer job to me.

As for where to live...I was able to snag an interesting apartment at Patrones the summer before it was torn down. :( That may have been the last affordable (and coolest!) place to live in Sowal.

[Smiling JOe]

Sandestin recently built dormitory/appartment housing for some of their employees.
Maybe Walton County will build dorms for their employees? :idontno:

[Smiling JOe]

Back to the $30K salary issue, bear in mind that's not too far from what a beginning Walton County deputy sheriff makes. Starting salary for a City of DeFuniak Springs police officer is $22K. :roll:

So, not only would it not make sense (in my mind, anyway) to pay them $30K, they most definitely don't have anywhere to live.

There has got to be an answer, but I don't know what it is.
Maybe we could hire all of the Deputies to be lifeguards and they could use their guns to shoot the sharks. Of course, we would not have any deputies then, and would be more like the US Virgin Islands, which are filled with pirates (Rednecks kicked out of FL.).

[ShallowsNole]

Many of the deputies would take you up on that in a heartbeat. Except, of course, when it's freezing.

And the dorms for county employees...I won't even go there. :floor:

[Bob]

Ok, I'm gonna just say it: Cops don't prevent crime or vehicle accidents, ski patrollers don't keep skiers from hitting trees and getting caught in avalanches, and lifeguards cannot prevent drownings or shark attacks. I know, I've been in both of the latter professions. We can put in lifeguards for a "feel-good" measure, but the bottom line is that we will still have victims of bad individual choices or pure bad luck. Families of drowning victims (and the press) are not more accepting of their tragedy because the beach was "protected by lifeguards." So, when a lifeguard saves someone, they are not preventing a drowning?

[amylouky]

So, when a lifeguard saves someone, they are not preventing a drowning?
I think what chrisv meant was that lifeguards can't prevent ALL drownings. People will still swim out too far, in too rough of conditions, or if they don't have sufficient swimming skills. I've seen many people in the water on red flag days with small children. You can't always protect people from themselves.
I don't know what I think about the lifeguard issue.. I think it could help prevent some drownings, but the cost could make it impossible.
Maybe they could compromise.. have more beach patrols with deputies trained in lifesaving skills.. and maybe those blue emergency phones every so often on the beach?

[hutch]

Walton County YTD Property Taxes = $92,932,924.45. Folks this is just property tax. Where is this money being spent? Not on lifeguards, not on roads and surely not for employees payroll. What are the general operating expenditures for Walton County and what percentage of these funds are being held in savings?

for what's it it worth.

the hutch

[Camp Creek Kid]

The state gets a large percentage of the property taxes because there is no state income tax. Walton County's property taxes do get used for schools, but the money goes into the state's general funds and then it is distributed to the counties per pupil. This is supposed to help equalize the funds given to rural vs. urban counties.

It is a huge amount of money that Walton County takes in, but we don't get to keep all of it. The county has been very far behind with appraisals because there is so much development and building. The state has told Walton County that they WILL get caught up this year because the state wants its share of the property taxes. This is why we'll all see a dramatic increase in property taxes this year.

[TooFarTampa]

It is a huge amount of money that Walton County takes in, but we don't get to keep all of it. The county has been very far behind with appraisals because there is so much development and building. The state has told Walton County that they WILL get caught up this year because the state wants its share of the property taxes. This is why we'll all see a dramatic increase in property taxes this year.

Figured taxes will go up sooner rather than later, but have they been reappraising this year, or did they do it last year? This year's taxes are based on the Jan. 1 values, and we'll find out Aug. 1 (I think) what they are. If they're reappraising this year, this will affect our taxes next year, right? :idontno: Just curious -- I want to be prepared! The wind policy bill was bad enough!

[kurt]

Does the county spend too much on advertising and not enough on taking care of its people and resources?

[Bob]

Does the county spend too much on advertising and not enough on taking care of its people and resources? Yes and yes. Will multiple lifeguard stands put a damper on photo ops, or will this be an enhancement?

[kurt]

Yes and yes. Will multiple lifeguard stands put a damper on photo ops, or will this be an enhancement?

I doubt we'd have the ratio that Baywatch had, if that's what you mean. :lol:

[Smiling JOe]

Yes and yes. Will multiple lifeguard stands put a damper on photo ops, or will this be an enhancement?
I guess that depends on the lifeguards. :wub: