ethanol

[Smiling JOe]

Yesterday, I learned that this year, the Indy Cars are running on 10% ethanol. Next year, all Indy Cars will be running off of 100% ethanol (alcohol made from corn) just like the Duke Boys. What a great start for promoting the use of renuable fuels, which could also get us the hell out of the middle east. :clap_1: -- even if those cars get only 2.5 mpg on avg

[ecopal]

Yesterday, I learned that this year, the Indy Cars are running on 10% ethanol. Next year, all Indy Cars will be running off of 100% ethanol (alcohol made from corn) just like the Duke Boys. What a great start for promoting the use of renuable fuels, which could also get us the hell out of the middle east. :clap_1: -- even if those cars get only 2.5 mpg on avg

Cellulosic ethanol is the more efficient biofuel of choice.
See excerpts from the following Economist article:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5504030

"America has traditionally made ethanol from corn. Alas, this is much less efficient than Brazil's sugar-cane ethanol or that using the cellulosic method.

But the farm lobby's power means that America doles out billions in subsidies to corn ethanol—and imposes tariffs on imports of the greener, cheaper Brazilian variety.

High oil prices, government support and the promise of new technology have led to a veritable boom in production of American-style ethanol.

Several billion dollars of investment led by agribusiness giants such as Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland are going into new production plants for corn ethanol.

But the biofuel to watch is cellulosic ethanol. It is made efficiently using powerful catalysts and enzymes to speed up natural processes. And it does not rely on valuable crops: it can use waste products such as straw, corn stalks or agricultural debris. "

[Smiling JOe]

...

But the biofuel to watch is cellulosic ethanol. It is made efficiently using powerful catalysts and enzymes to speed up natural processes. And it does not rely on valuable crops: it can use waste products such as straw, corn stalks or agricultural debris. " Very interesting. I look forward to reading more about it.

Edit: you must be a premium member to read the artilcle in the link. Will you post the article for us, please?

Afterthought: I wonder if they can make ethanol from Kudzu? :idontno:

[southof30A]

Please be sure to check the latest report on energy balance of ethanol production. At last glance, it took more energy to create a given volume of ethanol than the given volume of ethanol produced when burned. Bad deal for society...

[ecopal]

Very interesting. I look forward to reading more about it.

Edit: you must be a premium member to read the artilcle in the link. Will you post the article for us, please?

Afterthought: I wonder if they can make ethanol from Kudzu? :idontno:



Ethanol

Feb 9th 2006
From The Economist print edition

A much-maligned alternative to oil comes of age


IT MUST rank as one of history's unlikelier conversions. President Bush is an oil man from Texas, and a reformed heavy drinker. But in his recent State-of-the-Union speech, the president declared that America is “addicted to oil”, and trumpeted the virtues of ethanol—an alcohol-based fuel. The virtue of ethanol is that it can power “flex-fuel” cars that can run on either petrol or alcohol. Mr Bush says he wants a vast expansion of the country's tiny ethanol industry. In particular, he wants “cellulosic ethanol”, prepared using an advanced technology, to become commercial within six years.

Will it happen? Ethanol will not replace oil anytime soon, but Mr Bush nevertheless has put his finger on something big. This once-sickly, over-subsidised industry is brimming with optimism.

America has traditionally made ethanol from corn. Alas, this is much less efficient than Brazil's sugar-cane ethanol or that using the cellulosic method. But the farm lobby's power means that America doles out billions in subsidies to corn ethanol—and imposes tariffs on imports of the greener, cheaper Brazilian variety.

High oil prices, government support and the promise of new technology have led to a veritable boom in production of American-style ethanol. Several billion dollars of investment led by agribusiness giants such as Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland are going into new production plants for corn ethanol. Daniel Kammen of the University of California at Berkeley argues that corn ethanol is not as bad as it seems: using it releases less greenhouse gas than burning petrol, he calculates, and its spread helps develop infrastructure for the much greener ethanol that should come onto the market in a few years' time.

But the biofuel to watch is cellulosic ethanol. It is made efficiently using powerful catalysts and enzymes to speed up natural processes. And it does not rely on valuable crops: it can use waste products such as straw, corn stalks or agricultural debris. Royal Dutch Shell has a joint venture with Canada's Iogen which plans to open a commercial plant by 2009. DuPont and Genencor, a biotechnology firm, are also busy developing better catalysts.

The best reason for optimism is the arrival of entrepreneurial capital. Paul Allen and Bill Gates, co-founders of Microsoft, have both made recent (but unrelated) investments in ethanol firms. Richard Branson, a British airline boss, has jumped into the fray with Virgin Fuels, a new firm that vows to invest $300m-400m in ethanol over three years. Vinod Khosla, a venture capitalist at Kleiner Perkins, has also put his own money into start-up firms developing cellulosic ethanol and speaks with the zeal of a convert: “Bush is too cautious, it can take off much sooner than six years!” Perhaps. But will that mean an end to subsidies? Don't count on it.

[chocophile]

southof30A:

A big reason for the high cost of ethanol production is that they base the costs on corn-based ethanol. They figure in the cost of fertilizer, the fuel used in the farm equipment to plant and harvest the corn, everything. ecopal mentioned cellulosic ethanol.

This is the summary from a government report entitled, "Outlook for Biomass Ethanol Production and Demand" (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biomass.html) on the Department of Energy's Energy Information Administration web site:


The production of ethanol from corn is a mature technology that is not likely to see significant reductions in production costs. The ability to produce ethanol from low-cost biomass will be key to making it competitive as a gasoline additive. If Department of Energy goals are met, the cost of producing ethanol could be reduced by as much as 60 cents per gallon by 2015 with cellulosic conversion technology. This paper presents a midterm forecast for biomass ethanol production under three different technology cases for the period 2000 to 2020, based on projections developed from the Energy Information Administration’s National Energy Modeling System. An overview of cellulose conversion technology and various feedstock options and a brief history of ethanol usage in the United States are also presented.


Right now, the corn lobby and other big agricultural interests are trying to focus our attention on corn based ethanol. The fact is, there's not enough arable acreage in the US to grow enough corn to produce all the ethanol we would need to replace fossil fuels. Cellulosic and waste based ethanol is the way to go. Imagine everyone who mows their lawn bagging the trimmings, and getting a discount or voucher for ethanol based on how much they contribute...

[BeachSteelers]

Unfortunately we been sold out by our politicians whom been "Lobbied" with millions of dollars by Big Oil as well as Detroit to not promote alternative fuels.Although we have no one to blame but ourselves. With less than 50% voter turnout and by allowing the Congress to become a inundated with multi term representatives(i.e.Kerry,Kennedy,Byrd,Spector,Cli nton.Bush and 100 others) it's no wonder how we got here. I repeat VOTE OUT INCUMBENTS. This country wasn't designed to be run by a ruling elite but yet they are here. They're gonna give 30 Million ILLEGALS a free pass towards citizenship just like in the 80's. Vote themselves a pay raise(For What!) Why would they care if we keep supporting a bunch of ignorant hateful oil pimps from the middle east. Whom, I'm sure, have lined congress' pockets with millions not develope alternative fuels. If freakin Brazil can be oil free on Sugarcane Ethanol there's no reason why we shouldn't be also. Accept the fact that it's OUR FAULT. VOTE THEM OUT. Public Service is not a lifetime career.
Also anyone heard of the Waco agreement?
How Prez. Bush,Mr. Fox & the former PM of Canada have an agreement (Treaties need to be ratified by Congress) to make the US,Canada and Mexico similar to the EU(Europian Union). Meaning open borders,The Amero(New Money)as well as who the heck knows what else? Wish I was kidding but I believe to be true. New World Order sounds nice, eh! Buenos Dias. Better start praticing Mi Espanol. :bang: :eek:

[Uncle Timmy]

Wow, this has been a very informative thread. Thanks to everyone for sharing.

[Smiling JOe]

I recently saw an episode of "Dirty Jobs with Mike Rowe" which featured a company in Las Vegas that collected waste food from a casino and converted it into methanol. They said that methanol produced supples enough power to operate 1,000 homes.

The science is in place for us to be much more effeicient people, but it does all go back to the politics. I think the US farm industry also holds a bit of power and will have even more so if we turn to US farmers to feed our fuel needs, but at least it is cleaner and renewable. Its prices and supply may also be more volatile, dependent upon the weather. (just points of concern)

One source for methanol we will never run out of is poop. Poop can be converted into methanol, too. The supply is never ending, and it is everywhere we go. Someone really needs to get off their seat (or get on their seat) and develop some systems for production of methanol to run our homes or autos. Poop for a cause.

[aquaticbiology]

i've done my homework on this

pappy duke (or any middle ages brewer-distiller) knew that once you got the vat bubbling with good grain (corn, wheat or rye), you throw in everything from grass clippings to stalks to cow patties

once the mash is ready, you have to triple distill to concentrate the product enough to burn properly (151+) - this is the big energy cow - you can use burning corn stalks for this energy (like pappy duke) or you can do a solar still - there is just no feasable way to remove all the water, and if you use natural gas then, well, that's just silly

add 1:1000 acetone to the finished batch to keep it from degrading and to keep the water that you can't remove from freezing in the winter

never mix automotive gasoline and ethanol product, the remaining water in the ethanol will cause the two different fluids to not mix properly without MTBE or other additives to keep it mixed