Best Investments

[Scooter]

Where are the best investments? Lots by the bay, Rivercamps by St.Joe - How close is this property to the new airport? Is it true that the new commissioners are going to allow high rises in South Walton? That would be devastating! What about Redfish Village? :idontno:

[kurt]

:welcome:

That is a wide open question. :lol:

The easy answer is anything on the water is the best, gulf view after that. But really anything in Walton County, including North of the bay is a good bet.

St. Joe properties, even River Camps which is on the bay near the new airport, are BLUE CHIP. Getting a SJ property pre-construction is like hitting the lotto. And you have to get in a lottery to get one.

[Smiling JOe]

... Getting a SJ property pre-construction is like hitting the lotto. And you have to get in a lottery to get one.

Just having your name pulled from the hat is like winning the lottery, literally.

Regarding Redfish Village, I don't think they are building anything taller than the current zoning will allow - 4 stories or 50', whichever comes first.

[Philip_Atlanta]

Regarding St Joe, do you think the above works for Summer Camps as well - over in Caravelle? Not nearly as desirable a location on the gulf as Walton Co (in my opinion at least).

[kurt]

Hi Philip,
Don't forget to post your rental stuff in the real estate forum.

While Summer Camps and some of the other St. Joe projects may not be as hot as some in SoWal and other primo locations, the way they do things and the resulting weight of the name seem to guarantee a profit.

At this point they could do "Swamp Camps" in Southern Georgia and a great waiting list would ensue. :lol:

[Smiling JOe]

Regarding St Joe, do you think the above works for Summer Camps as well - over in Caravelle? Not nearly as desirable a location on the gulf as Walton Co (in my opinion at least).

Yes, definitely. Carabelle, Appalachicola, St Joe, Cape San Blas, are hot areas, with a different kind of beauty and strong prices. Those areas are the "old Florida" places I think about when I hear MoFro sing the song entitled, "Florida." Below is a short article from the Mountain Xpress regarding MoFro's song. Some of the lirics are written in the article.

http://www.firstcoastus.com/jaxslam/images/mofro.jpg


Apr 3, 2002 / vol 8 iss 34
Brighter days
Soulful album proves regionalism isn't dead

by Margaret Williams

It was the land immortalized in Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings' The Yearling. Now it's a land increasingly overrun with skyscraper condos and superhighways headed south.

"Florida, I know you're out there hiding from me/You get harder and harder to find. Everyday she keeps slippin' away/Florida, please don't fade on me now," singer John "J.J." Grey of MoFro croons in "Florida," a song that pays homage to the little-lauded north-central region of that state, far from the beaches but no less exotic in its swampy, prehistoric stillness.

If you thought regionalism was dead, you need only listen to MoFro's Blackwater (Fog City Records, 2001). Named one of amazon.com's top-10 R&B/soul records last year, the disc oozes Southern spirit – Grey's voice is so immediate you could be hearing him over the radio as you cruised the flat two-lanes of backwoods Florida.

Picture a place and time that's slipping away on the slow pulse of blackwater swamps: Laughter, blues guitar and Grey's chameleonic voice – which manages to invoke a young James Brown on some tracks – wafts across the sultry North Florida air. Water laps against the knobbly knees of cypress stumps; a hint of wind rustles the palmettos and tall Southern pines; Spanish moss droops from the limbs of live oaks.

"Autumn sun sets morning skies ablaze/The oaks and the pines turn their palms up to the sun/The kind of beauty that hits down in the soul/And still we're hell-bent to destroy it all," the singer laments. The slow-drawl pace kicks into a space-age rap as the singer continues, "Now skyscrapers and superhighways/Are carved through the heart of Florida/Building subdivisions while the swamps are drained/Makin' room for people and amusement parks."

Grey grew up outside Jacksonville, Fla., and went with his grandfather to fish the not-so-far-away Cross Creek area described so memorably in The Yearling and Rawlings' other works. "This music," remarked MoFro guitarist/dobroist Daryl Hance in a press statement, "comes from the Blackwater region of North Florida and is about remembering, about paying respect, and about giving thanks."

Hance is a lifelong friend of Grey's; the latter once commented, "One of the regular haunts ... was a little juke house/barbecue joint called K-D's Nite Limit. That's where I got my first taste of soul, blues and funk music. Everybody up there would be hangin' out playin' cards. They'd [give us] a plate of 'Q and let me take a swig of beer or two. I remember everybody up there would be listening to the Isley Brothers or somebody like that on the stereo."

The memory of such times powers "Whitehouse," with Grey singing, "I got a lot of memories of growing up in the South ... living childhood dreams and fantasies ... kissing girls at the playground ... Show me the way back to those days." Childhood memories take on a different flavor in the hyperactive "Ho Cake" – the song is an ode to turnip greens and piping hot cornbread.

MoFro's unique achievement may be that they sound like a lot of other Southern rock while somehow eliciting the lakes, swamps, alligators, hot sun, pines and palmettos of North Florida like no other band. It's the kind of country that exists just off the beaten path, just an oyster shell's throw from saltwater, all the way from Jacksonville to New Orleans.

You can hear the sense of place in the throaty sax of "Nare Sugar," and in the echo of laughter and camaraderie of "Jookhouse." The band likes to call what it does "North Florida front-porch funk" ... and the legacy of Southern storytelling is humorously apparent in the improvised tune, "Cracka Break," a sort of redneck rap about a bank robber whose misadventure begins with the security guard that "kabongs him on the head" with his pistol butt.

Grey recalls the days when his grandfather and Daryl's daddy carried them over to Lake Lochloosa and Lake Orange near Cross Creek to go fishing: "I loved it there and still do, but the last time I went down there, they was building a bunch of new houses. I guess time, progress and money have all caught with old-school Florida. I'm sure Daryl and me goin' fishin' down there helped shape our lives and music beyond our knowledge of it."

Nostalgia takes a grand final bow in the CD's emotional, Allman Brothers-esque last track; the chorus, building in intensity, keeps wondering: "Brighter days/Where did they go?"

[kurt]

Hey JOE thanks! I'm listening to them now. Good stuff.

Cross Creek, Micanopy, and Orange Lake area were my favorites when I was in Gainesville. I almost bought an old place on Orange Lake. If I had I probably would have never left.

[Joe]

We drove down to SummerCamp a couple of weeks ago. I had never been to that part of the Florida Panhandle. Our mission was to see how the beaches compared to SoWal. In my mind there is no comparison. The ocean was more like the Atlantic...very cloudy water. The closest restaurants are many miles away. But at the same time, you pay much less for property without amenities. The prices for lots, were quite reasonable during their initial release, even for lots close to the beach. The other drawback is the property is right at sea level so the houses will be on stilts as they are all in the flood plain.

The last I read in the Tallahassee Democrat, St. Joe is being sued by environmentalists so the SummerCamp project is in limbo until the lawsuit is decided.



Also, you cannot drive into SummerCamp, there are no roads yet. All you can do is drive by on 30A.

[Joe]

Speaking of St. Joe Lotteries, they are releasing the first 18 lots in the final phase of Watercolor (Phase 4 -- Cedar Woods). Drawing is May 5th. I was surprised that the prices are all in the $500-$550 range (seemed low). I don't know what the associated build times are.

[kurt]

Speaking of St. Joe Lotteries, they are releasing the first 18 lots in the final phase of Watercolor (Phase 4 -- Cedar Woods). Drawing is May 5th. I was surprised that the prices are all in the $500-$550 range (seemed low). I don't know what the associated build times are.

I heard that the WaterColor agents were begging for lower prices. :idontno:

Seems like prices are about $100k higher than similarly located lots along 30-A, but you would expect a premium at WaterColor. Anyone know how they compare to NatureWalk of Seagrove just to the North?

[Just_In_Thyme]

We looked at buying on St. George Island but after looking in So.Wal, we knew where to put our $$$. The water and beaches are much more beautiful, there is no comparison. Also as was mentioned, the houses there are more likely to suffer from storm surge etc. Insurance costs are a good bit higher than in So. Wal. also. We had a chance to buy in Summer Camp but opted out.

[Georgian]

correct me if I'm wrong but I believe St. Joe is not selling the lots but they will also be building every home in this final phase. When you get to the bottom of the pot I guess you try to keep as much in-house as you can. Not only will they profit from the land but also from the construction markup. Heck why don't they just put them all on a rental program and sell them in a few years after the airport goes in? After all for those of us that not only invest in land but in stock wouldn't this make more sense. JOE is up 100% over the past 12-18 months.

[Joe]

That was the original plan, but last I heard they had backed off and are now simply selling the lots as in the other phases.

[beachmouse]

According to a couple of Log articles I've seen, the Mississippi Gulf Coast is supposed to be the next Big Thing. Beaches aren't as nice, but you do get the casino-related amenities.

Closer to Walton County, well I think for Coastal Walton County, you had to be here 18 months ago to really jump on that train. Further afield, I still like Mexico Beach east of Tyndall. They've had significant price jumps there, but still aren't at SoWal levels, and I think the nearby St. Joe redevelopment of Port St. Joe will push prices up in Mexico Beach & Beacon Hill as well. Quiet area, and the beaches are still sugar sand in that area.

Other possibilities: new townhouse developments in inland areas (Destin north of US 98, Ft. Walton Beach, Niceville). They're not short term rental areas, but are going relatively fast because people realize it's just going to get more and more expensive to live anywhere close to the coast. I got talking to a random realtor last Christmas, and she was saying she was making $50,000 per unit flipping preconstruction townhouses in Niceville in late 2004.

Growth areas of the future: Mossy Head, DeFuniak Springs. Now that mid-level service sector employees are getting priced out of Panama City Beach and Crestview (and darn, it sounds weird to say people are getting priced out of Crestview) they're going to need housing somewhere else, and those are two logical spots. If you can get ahold of a decent-sized parcel up there that can be zoned to residential and has good utility access, you will be sitting on something very, very valuable in 5-10 years.

[Buckhead Rick]

The fellow who built our house in Watercolor said St. Joe HAD planned on selling lot and house in phase 4 as a package but could not get the crews to build them. So it was either sell less for more % profit or sell more for less %profit. Remember there is more profit to St. Joe in property (avarage cost basis $1.00 an acre) and they can sell them all in one earnings year, then spread that out over several years for an extra 20% gain from building.
After phase 4 they are down to just around 800,000 acres in Florida.

[pat3797]

I have been looking seriously for almost 18 months now. Started my search in Destin before moving it East. Some of my ideas are land vs condo. The problem with land is the ability to build and then rent. That's why condos sound so much easier

[kurt]

I have been looking seriously for almost 18 months now. Started my search in Destin before moving it East. Some of my ideas are land vs condo. The problem with land is the ability to build and then rent. That's why condos sound so much easier

:welcome:

[Philip_Atlanta]

I have been looking seriously for almost 18 months now. Started my search in Destin before moving it East. Some of my ideas are land vs condo. The problem with land is the ability to build and then rent. That's why condos sound so much easier

It strikes me that this thread needs a better definition of "best investment". In real estate, there are many ways to "skin the cat" so to speak. In a real general sense --

If your goal is quick cash by flipping property - then buying a pre-construction condo or a lot via a lottery (as discussed above) and then selling in a short period of time could yield a pretty good short-term result. (heck, in Walton co, people have made 6 figures in a matter of months doing this..)

If your goal is to build wealth via a buy and hold strategy, well my bet is to buy single-family houses. My belief is by owning the house, you own the land and that, in a sense, is what is increasing in value. I'm personally not a big believer in buy and hold for condos - but I haven't tried..

[Smiling JOe]

I have been looking seriously for almost 18 months now. Started my search in Destin before moving it East. Some of my ideas are land vs condo. The problem with land is the ability to build and then rent. That's why condos sound so much easier


Your post is a bit vague. Have you been looking without buying for 18 months? If so, why do you continue to look? Are you just shopping and wishing, or are you seriously willing to pay the price when the right property comes along?

You mention your "ideas are land vs. condo." What does that mean?

"The problem with land is the ability to build and then rent." Are you wanting to build and rent? Do you think that if you build it you cannot rent? Do you think renting out a condo which you purchase will cover your expenses of owning?

[lenzoe]

Growth areas of the future: Mossy Head, DeFuniak Springs.
What do you think about Red Bay? Anyone heard of plans in that area?

[Smiling JOe]

I drove through RedBay last week, and yes, I passed by both houses. Personally, I have not heard much talk about that area, but "when" the PCB airport is approved in Nov, I think that will give cause for developers to seek out areas such as RedBay, Bruce, Ebro, and Ponce de Leon.

[kurt]

What do you think about Red Bay? Anyone heard of plans in that area?

Property on Hwy 81 is being bought up as it is throughout Walton County. 81 is in a good location between 331/SoWal and the airport road - Hwy 79. Although there is plenty of acreage a little closer, like along Hwy 20 between 331 and 81 that will be developed first.

[beachmouse]

Heck why don't they just put them all on a rental program and sell them in a few years after the airport goes in? After all for those of us that not only invest in land but in stock wouldn't this make more sense. JOE is up 100% over the past 12-18 months.

Because they'd be effectively renting at a loss until the airport issue is settled. For renting a property with a long term lease, your rent needs to be 10% gross value of the property every year in order to justify the investment. For short term rental, I'd guess you need somewhere in the 25%+ gross range because of much higher maitenance and management expenses.

Considering down here, ads will brag that a short term unit is getting almost 10% gross, I'd guess not many people who bought recently are getting anywhere close to 20% gross.

Yeah, you can anticipate increases in property value, but remember that those increases can vary more widely than the stock market. You can have a 2-3 year period of time where values increase in the 20-30% annual range, and then a five year period of time where you're back to 2-3% annual range. The bean counters don't like that kind of uncertainty.

And the trend in the industry says that the real money comes from managing properties, not from directly owning them. The big hotel companies all seem to be selling off the properties they own to franchisees. Even around here in the bigger resorts like Seaside, Sandestin and Bluewater Bay, the parent company manages units, not owns them directly.

[lenzoe]

Property on Hwy 81 is being bought up as it is throughout Walton County. 81 is in a good location between 331/SoWal and the airport road - Hwy 79. Although there is plenty of acreage a little closer, like along Hwy 20 between 331 and 81 that will be developed first.
You wouldn't happend to know the MLS area numbers for those locations, would you?

[kurt]

You wouldn't happend to know the MLS area numbers for those locations, would you?

Some of the realtors on the board may be able to help you. :idontno: