Minimum Wage for SoWal??? [Archive]

Smiling JOe

02-08-2006, 06:21 AM

Minimum wage NEVER is equal to a living wage ANYWHERE in the USA. But when the employer insists on a 39 1/2 hour work week (to avoid benefits) that's essentially what it's become.

I personally think the commute for low-wage employees back and forth to SoWal from "affordable" areas accounts for at least 2 hours of unpaid work per day. So at $12.50 ph for 8 hours in SoWal would be $100 per day which (if you add on the 2-hour commute) would come out to $10 per hour. Considering the additional cost of gas, wear & tear on the car, a jacked-up car insurance bill and commuting headaches...is it any wonder some would prefer just to roll out of bed and put in their 10 hours for 4-days at the DeFuniak Tastee-Freeze for a couple bucks less and getting another local part-time job to make up the couple bucks difference on the 5th day?

Just think--these poor souls have to work 1 1/2 hours to buy a fish sandwich off the bar menu at Cafe 30A (just as an example). Someone is making the money at the businesses in the area....employers are going to have to start narrowing their profit margins (or raising their prices) to pay their workers more (and yes, that may mean paying a living wage) or they will find it difficult to staff their establishments when the customers with money come rolling in the door.

The cheap labor who used to live in the surrounding communities have been pushed out of the area to make way for upscale development--now they want them to make a long commute back down in heavy, dangerous traffic for low wages? I don't think so.

Shelly, I appreciate your look at this. Working out another step brings forth another question. If these businesses, including restaurants, raise their prices to help pay higher wages, that employee to which you refer will now have more money to pay for that now even more expensive sandwich at Cafe 30A, but he wouldn't he still have to work 1.5 hours to do so, and wouldn't everyone else have to pay more too, including people not in the service industry?:idontno:

John R

02-08-2006, 07:00 AM

my take:
that employee will not be going to cafe 30a. he/she will be buying lunch at publix and dinner at snapperheads, when they don't prepare their own. that employee will be renting a house(or employee housing unit) with two or three other employees, and working two jobs. they want to live here just like everyone else, and enjoy the area. they'll buy their staples at walmart every two to three weeks, and their perishables at publix when needed. they'll smile at you when serving you, and discuss you when you leave. have two drinks at their work after closing and head on up to snapperheads till it closes. on their day off, they'll go to b/a, red bar, or 331 to where they know some other locals will be, and amuse themselves with the tourists. they'll go to borago before they go to fish out of water, or they'll go to amore, to support another working stiff who is giving it a go as an owner/operator.

when said employee desires a more permanent life, they will buy in freeport, bruce, or further north. the financing of this house will come with help from their parents. they will commute willingly, and still have two jobs, to support their home, spouse(who also works) and possibly their child. once they move, they will frequent a local(here) restaurant possibly once a quarter, for a special occasion, since they have discovered a reasonably priced establishment in their neighborhood to support. when their new locale grows enough to need it's own support personnel, we'll probably lose half of them. if you think finding construction labor is hard now, wait until freeport gets a full head of steam.

this is not conjecture, this is happening at every hot resort across the country.

the first person who opens a clean, non smoking, affordable hangout, that serves more than bar food, open at least two meal periods, is going to make a killing

jr

Smiling JOe

02-08-2006, 07:10 AM

Good points, John R. I guess my question goes into the bigger picture of all prices will go up when businesses have to pay employees more wages. This would include the prices of groceries, gas, prepared meals, books, etc, etc.

I guess Shelly's scenerio has potential if the employees did travel back to Freeport and beyond to buy their goods. They would probably pack their lunch too to save some bucks.

If/when this does happen, most younger locals will be moving out to, because it is easier than driving to Freeport to buy all of their goods.

Kimmifunn

02-08-2006, 07:20 AM

Ok. here is my honest attempt for a serious answer. If I'm totally off, smack me down and send me to the lounge.

As one of the punks who rolled in for the summer, I think I can give a little insight to this.

First...isn't this a cost of living issue? Sorry- I have little sympathy for someone who wants to complain about the price of a fish sandwich when I pay $8 for a beer or an easy $15 for lunch not including a cocktail. And at one time I made less than those lifeguards will be making. Trust me.

So when we moved down for the summers, Jfunn and I rented a place for about $850 a month. I worked at Mars and Venus in Seaside and we got roped into delivering for Wok on the Beach (blast from the past) from time to time for a little extra spending money. We boozed at the Red Bar, Buds, Capos, ect. We drove into Wal-Mart for grocery shopping like once a week. I lived off Boca Burgers and Easy Mac (come on guys...it's not THAT freakin' far). I know gas wasn't as expensive as it is today, but I bet lots of these kiddies have little gas cards in mom and dad's names.

I'm not feeling too sorry for them. I think they are being paid great for a summer job. And the majority of them are on their parent's insurance anyway. I know it was a little more expensive there compared to Bham or Auburn for me. Come on guys. It's not that bad.

John R

02-08-2006, 07:33 AM

Yes Joe, but prices will reach a ceiling. then, only the wealthy will eat there, or the business will fail. the operator who is creative with food cost, scheduling, and pricing will end up on top.

Uncle Timmy

02-08-2006, 09:05 AM

Paula

02-08-2006, 09:34 AM

The reality is that SoWal is now an upscale community and I don't think it will ever go back to what it was. So, it will continue to be expensive to live, vacation, and eat here (though there are still some great vacation opportunities at reasonable prices). People can still have a wonderfully inexpensive vacation here if they visit here during the off-season. You can rent a nice new 3 bedroom place a 5 minute walk from a gorgeous beach for well under $1000/week in the winter and not much more for a month in the winter -- just look on VRBO to see all that's available in the fall/winter. People can enjoy the many free things around here (e.g., beaches, nature, parks, free concerts/movies), cook/eat at home rather than go out to eat, are willing to double-up in their accommodations (not everyone needs a private bedroom), and find good meal bargains in the area (e.g., dining early in the winter, take-out, lunch specials, etc.). And this would still be quite the luxurious vacation.

Kimmifunn, I like your perspective. While I agree that raising the minimum wage would be the-right-thing-for-our-society-to-do, this situation can be viewed from multiple angles. And your angle is a useful (and I suspect pretty common) one, not only for SoWal but for other upscale areas, especially on the coast). We can hope that there will always be young adults who are willing to work jobs in funn/beautiful locations just to be in these locations for a while. And creative people who are really motivated to be here will figure out how to live here (e.g., sharing costs, eating mac and cheese) while working here and having funn here. It won't be easy, but a lot of good things aren't easy to achieve. That's what makes it so worth it when you get them. Those of us who use the services of people who work in this area will want to encourage them to keep working here by tipping well and being kind and encouraging.

It is indeed difficult to be in a situation in which you don't have the skills to make more than minimum wage (been there, done that). Yet many people in this situation don't think of themselves as "poor souls" and think it's creepy that other people think of them that way. That said, if we can't in the short term raise minimum wage, then we can look for other ways to help people who are living the mininum-wage life. Most people, including some people on this board and/or who have property in SoWal, aren't born into wealth or even middle class incomes and have learned valuable lessons from that experience.

So, in addition to worrying about minimum wage, we can actually take actions such as giving money to organizations that support education (e.g., college) for people who otherwise wouldn't be able to attend college. We can support community colleges in the area that open doors for many people who would otherwise continue to have minimum wage jobs. We can give our time to institutions that help people build skills and that provide support. We can help the teachers in the public schools give young students the best education possible a chance to see the opportunities that are available, and the skills to achieve their goals. We can volunteer our time in a neighborhood school so that teachers have time to teach. We can teach someone how to read. We can volunteer to coach a team of kids. We can send our kids to day cares with a sliding fee scale so that children at different income levels can get good day care and are exposed to all different kids of people. We can support our public schools by sending our kids to them. We can identify young people who are highly motivated and encourage them -- often a bit of support and advice from others is a stepping stone to a better future (even if the minimum wage isn't raised).

So, my point would be that while we're waiting for minimum wage laws to be changed, there are many other things each of us can do personally to (1) help people who are currently living on minimum wage and (2) find and encourage people who are willing to work in SoWal.

SHELLY

02-08-2006, 12:19 PM

The reality is that SoWal is now an upscale community and I don't think it will ever go back to what it was.

So, my point would be that while we're waiting for minimum wage laws to be changed, there are many other things each of us can do personally to (1) help people who are currently living on minimum wage and (2) find and encourage people who are willing to work in SoWal.

I agree with you on these points. BUT what about this upcoming summer season? On another thread there is a comment about the poor service and cold food at Shades; and the bad attitude of (drug addicted?) staff. If this is a problem in the dead of winter, my guess is that this problem is going to grow 1,000-fold when the tourist season hits.

On another note, while it is true SoWal's beaches are popular, the relatively low-cost, laid-back beach atmosphere was a BIG draw for many. But with the real estate and insurance costs soaring and the low-cost labor forced out of the area, the place will never return to what it was. If folks want an upscale surrounding as far as the eye can see and beyond, they're going to have to pay upscale (and beyond) wages to make the employee's trip worthwhile. Just because tourists think the place is fabulous (as they sip cold drinks and look out to sea)--doesn't mean it is equally enjoyable for someone who's humping dishes or cleaning condos and faces a 2 hour commute each day. Visitors say they hate driving to Destin or PCB during their stay because they can't stand the traffic--imagine doing that 2x per day for 5-6 days a week? (I've worked in Hawaii for a number of years and believe me, it's not Aloha and Mai Tai's around the clock, especially if you have bills to pay.)

Don't discount the NEED for service workers in resort areas--the world would not function properly if everyone was a college graduate. As long as developers continue being cheered on as they build retail and sprawling high-rise condos (all of which require some sort of staff to maintain) finding staff will become more and more of a problem--and not the developers' problem; they simply build, sell, and move on. Honest, hard-working, motivated employees will come at a premium price--business owners who know this will pay the price, those who choose to ignore it will also pay the price, but in a different way.

What can be done now? There is a young man on this board who is desperately looking for an affordable place to live (working security at SanDestin). Why not offer up that young man an affordable place to stay--that would be good place to start.

SHELLY

02-08-2006, 12:35 PM

that employee to which you refer will now have more money to pay for that now even more expensive sandwich at Cafe 30A, but he wouldn't he still have to work 1.5 hours to do so, and wouldn't everyone else have to pay more too, including people not in the service industry?:idontno:

Joe, the sandwich thing was just to make a point to put the offering price for cheap labor into perspective. If they worked at 30A they'd get the sandwich for free, if they worked at the Prada shop they'd brown-bag a bolgna sandwich from home.

John R

02-08-2006, 12:43 PM

Joe, the sandwich thing was just to make a point to put the offering price for cheap labor into perspective. If they worked at 30A they'd get the sandwich for free, if they worked at the Prada shop they'd brown-bag a bolgna sandwich from home.

yes, the free sandwich staff meal, 5 of 21 meals/week.

jr

SHELLY

02-08-2006, 01:02 PM

I'd like to see this thread provide some real assistance to either an employer or employee when determining a reasonable wage for this area.

Does anyone want to research a range of rates, based on type of employment and other factors, that can backed up by figures (cost of living index etc.)

We could provide someone with a valuable argument for asking $___/hour.

TWT,

I appreciate your concern...I sense you really want to find solutions to this problem--and it is a BIG problem. Believe me, I wish I could offer up a quick and easy solution, but I've looked at this problem from a number of different angles and it isn't an easy fix.

As long as people continue to throw money at developers for building more and more retail & condos which gobble up lower cost-of-living areas and require low-cost staff to run them, there are going to be problems.

The easiest solution (and the one I find most distasteful) is to build barracks in far-flung areas and ship in thousands of migrant workers from third world countries. I have nothing against migrant workers, but I fear the profits that can be generated from such a system could lead to the abuse of the poor folks shipped in to work. In that sense, the panhandle would operate more like a cruise ship.

On the other hand, the best solution, I feel, would be for the county to DEMAND developers build rental apartments as part of the deal to allow them to develop their upscale communities. And yes, the employers in the area will have to fork out "living wages" and the tourists and locals living in the local areas will have to pay. There's a price to pay for living in paradise.

What's really going to happen in the short-term is that the businesses are going to have to increase wages and treat their good employees well OR they are going to have to constantly hire and train new employees (which is more expensive than raising wages a couple bucks an hour) OR they are going to end up with sub-par employees, in which case it doesn't matter if Wolfgang Puck is in the kitchen--if the customers get cold food and attitude...the business will fold before long.

If you REALLY want to find answers, TWT, ask your question of the guy who's bussing your dishes or serving your drink across the bar next time you are out for the evening.

SHELLY

02-08-2006, 01:05 PM

yes, the free sandwich staff meal, 5 of 21 meals/week.

jr

Unless you're the bologna-eating Prada Bag-lady.

Paula

02-08-2006, 01:24 PM

"BUT what about this upcoming summer season? On another thread there is a comment about the poor service and cold food at Shades; and the bad attitude of (drug addicted?) staff. If this is a problem in the dead of winter, my guess is that this problem is going to grow 1,000-fold when the tourist season hits."

I saw the comment and I can't say I had any indication that any of the staff at Shades was drug addicted (as you know, I really worry about stereotypes because they harm people and businesses and usually aren't true), nor did I experience generally poor service -- I'd call it average to good service. Our food was always great -- hot, sometimes innovative, tasty, and well-priced (and I have no invested interested in Shades by the Loop other than I like that it's close to us because we like to go there to eat -- it has become one of our favorite places to eat when we're in SoWal).

I definitely agree that staffing and housing is a problem. Given these problems, places that take good care of their staff and pay them well are the ones who will find the creative people who are able to figure out how to make a job in SoWal work for them -- and those people will tell their friends about the good places to work in SoWal so those places will get staff year after year.

WaltonUndercurrent

02-08-2006, 01:32 PM

I agree with Shelly on this one. Most of the larger business owners in the resort related service industry will tell you that employment is the absolute number one problem they're concerned with down the road. Not real estate prices or tourism, but finding the employees to clean, landscape, patrol, serve food, cook, answer phones, do laundry, etc. I'm not sure that there are enough young people whose families have homes in the area that are willing to work for going wages to keep it all going. Even if there were, they would only help during the summer months when the area is trying to become a year 'round destination.

Having homeowners start sending their kids down to live in their homes and work on their breaks and vacations isn't a sensible solution. I don't think we can breed the problem away. It's also idealistic to think that the problem is going to be solved because a lot of people think it's great here - most of those people have homes, money to spend on food, and aren't serving burgers and living with three or more other people in a small room five days a week. There's more to being a great place to work than just how pretty the scenery is. "I know most of what you're making is going to pay your part of the rent, but just look out the window at how pretty it is."

For seasonal work, eating mac & cheese and hotdogs from the corner mart may be worth spending a summer at the beach and enjoying a day off or two a week in the sun for a lot of young people, but not nearly enough. And while starving artists are cliche, I'm not sure they'll be happy with a life of mac & cheese either.

As an example, the Seaside rep theatre has an increasing problem with housing actors during the season - even cultural venues are starting to panic.

The trickle down effect of all this is that the cost of doing business here is going to continue to rise, cutting into profit margins and increasing prices even higher - which then prevents service wages from supporting employees and the circle starts again.

I'm afraid it's too late. Current real estate prices, even in this current market, won't encourage low income development. And low income development wouldn't stay "low income" for long in the market. Rent control won't work - this isn't New York City.

I think that the Chamber should have begun looking for ways to address this issue some time ago. It's membership is the one with the greatest potential to be affected. Its membership should have demanded it.

I predict fewer new businesses, restaurants, shops, etc and the attrition of some of the existing ones. Add real estate costs and insurance costs and there's justifiable cause for concern.

Paula

02-08-2006, 01:37 PM

Definitely cause for concern, no doubt about it. And I think we approach it in many different ways, including pushing hard for affordable housing, paying people well, encouraging the people who do manage to work here by treating them well (e.g., encouraging generous tipping of waiters, waitresses, cleaning people), figuring out how to get people to vacation here during the slow months so business have income during those periods. Big changes are made not only by changing policies in a big way, but through many "small wins" -- small activities/changes that add up to make big differences. Sometimes we focus so much on one thing, that we miss (and dismiss) the other opportunities.

I think it's very important to be having this staffing discussion now because it helps us come up with many different ideas -- big and small -- to try to shape the future of the area for everyone involved -- from workers, to businesses, to property owners, to environmentalists, etc.

SHELLY

02-08-2006, 01:49 PM

I think it's very important to be having this staffing discussion now because it helps us come up with many different ideas -- big and small -- to try to shape the future of the area for everyone involved -- from workers, to businesses, to property owners, to environmentalists, etc.

IMO the real estate money grab and greed experienced over the last couple of years is coming home to roost. The area is quickly heading for an economic trainwreck that is unavoidable at this point. If one thinks it's bad now, when they can't find a decent house painter or get a hot meal with a smile, just wait 2 years down the road when the dust settles on all the new construction going on around the area... :confused:

SHELLY

02-08-2006, 01:54 PM

I predict few knew business, restaurants, shops, etc and the attrition of some of the existing ones. Add real estate costs and insurance costs and there's justifiable cause for concern.

SOWAL 2010: A restricted-access beach lined with upscale houses and condos, a condo-tel with spa, a 5-star restuarant and a Prada store....that's about it.

Uncle Timmy

02-08-2006, 02:20 PM

TWT,

I appreciate your concern...I sense you really want to find solutions to this problem--and it is a BIG problem. Believe me, I wish I could offer up a quick and easy solution, but I've looked at this problem from a number of different angles and it isn't an easy fix.

As long as people continue to throw money at developers for building more and more retail & condos which gobble up lower cost-of-living areas and require low-cost staff to run them, there are going to be problems.

The easiest solution (and the one I find most distasteful) is to build barracks in far-flung areas and ship in thousands of migrant workers from third world countries. I have nothing against migrant workers, but I fear the profits that can be generated from such a system could lead to the abuse of the poor folks shipped in to work. In that sense, the panhandle would operate more like a cruise ship.

On the other hand, the best solution, I feel, would be for the county to DEMAND developers build rental apartments as part of the deal to allow them to develop their upscale communities. And yes, the employers in the area will have to fork out "living wages" and the tourists and locals living in the local areas will have to pay. There's a price to pay for living in paradise.

What's really going to happen in the short-term is that the businesses are going to have to increase wages and treat their good employees well OR they are going to have to constantly hire and train new employees (which is more expensive than raising wages a couple bucks an hour) OR they are going to end up with sub-par employees, in which case it doesn't matter if Wolfgang Puck is in the kitchen--if the customers get cold food and attitude...the business will fold before long.

If you REALLY want to find answers, TWT, ask your question of the guy who's bussing your dishes or serving your drink across the bar next time you are out for the evening.

A simple challenge submitted and.......'ka-thud' the sound of it falling on the floor.

Ok Shelly, let's get away from the "We must solve all the problems facing sowal or nothing" mentality and takle this issue specifically.

It may shock you to know that I do indeed know many of the folks who are bussing the tables and serving the drinks. Just as I am also friends with several small business owners in the area who employ them.

I feel it would be insightful to both if someone would look seriously into a regional wage analysis and determine an acceptable hourly rate that can be justified with facts.

FOCUS!

beachmouse

02-08-2006, 02:47 PM

So, in addition to worrying about minimum wage, we can actually take actions such as giving money to organizations that support education (e.g., college) for people who otherwise wouldn't be able to attend college. We can support community colleges in the area that open doors for many people who would otherwise continue to have minimum wage jobs.

The community colleges down here are cheap enough to be affordable to almost everyone. If you want to go to school, you can make it happen.

The problem is when someone finishes their degree, they either end up leaving the area or going back to their old job because of the lack of middle income white collar jobs in the area. There is a huge underemployment problem in the area, which means that the white collar jobs in a pleasant environment in many cases pay utter shyte, even by Southern standards.

We're talking people with four year degrees who are sitll waiting tables because they can make more doing dinner shifts at McGuire's than they could as schoolteachers. Or the person who used to teach community college math who is now running a t-shirt shop.

It's a classic hourglass economy down here- there are some amazingly good job opportunities if you're a rocket scientist, and a lot of service sector jobs, but there's close to nothing in the middle unless you're good at sales, or end up managing a retail store.

kurt

02-08-2006, 03:14 PM

I posted this a year ago from an article I saw. Has anyone heard any more about it?

Affordable housing coming to Walton County (http://www.sowal.com/bb/showthread.php?t=146&highlight=affordable)

Regional utilities has 2100 acres on JW Hollington Road, about 6 miles East of Freeport, North of Hwy 20. In the first phase, 300 acres will be divided into lots selling for around $35,000, including water and sewer.

Lots will not be available to buy and flip, and will be offered to first -time homeowners. 400-1200 lots will be sold in the first phase. The plans will be proposed to the County in 3-6 months.

Paula

02-08-2006, 03:16 PM

I agree that people often have to leave their communities to find jobs that fit their education. The American way of traveling to find jobs is both a good thing (people get to use their education and skills) and a bad thing (you may have to move and leave your family and friends to use your education). In our town, we have many college grads serving Starbucks because they don't want to leave the area. It's still good to promote opportunities for higher education: "According to the Census Bureau, over an adult's working life, high school graduates earn an average of $1.2 million; associate's degree holders earn about $1.6 million; and bachelor's degree holders earn about $2.1 million (Day and Newburger, 2002)." I would think that raising the quality of life for people in the areas outside of SoWal would be good for SoWal.

twt512: You are right. Focus is a good idea (I have a problem with losing focus myself, otherwise I wouldn't spend so much time on this message board...). How does one figure out the appropriate "minimum living wage" for service workers in an area like SoWal? Economists and people who study economics probably know how to systematically figure this out. Shelly, I think you may have mentioned on another thread that you have an area that you are studying -- is it economics? If so, can you identify a specific "minimum living wage" using some sort of data that's considered appropriate/rigorous by economists? There may be other economists on this board as well. Identifying an "acceptable minimum wage" based on data would be considered a "small win". Business owners would have a number for an appropriate minimum wage number to use if they wanted to.

Rita

02-08-2006, 03:19 PM

......The problem is when someone finishes their degree, they either end up leaving the area or going back to their old job because of the lack of middle income white collar jobs in the area. ..........

This, as I'm sure you are aware, fits much of "small-town" USA. Where I grew up, a small midwest farming community, we referred to it as "brain drain" (many of the college educated went to where the jobs were upon finishing school.)

Uncle Timmy

02-08-2006, 03:27 PM

twt512: You are right. Focus is a good idea (I have a problem with losing focus myself, otherwise I wouldn't spend so much time on this message board...). How does one figure out the appropriate "minimum living wage" for service workers in an area like SoWal? Economists and people who study economics probably know how to systematically figure this out. Shelly, I think you may have mentioned on another thread that you have an area that you are studying -- is it economics? If so, can you identify a specific "minimum living wage" using some sort of data that's considered appropriate/rigorous by economists? There may be other economists on this board as well. Identifying an "acceptable minimum wage" based on data would be considered a "small win". Business owners would have a number for an appropriate minimum wage to use if they wanted to.

I think you made my point better than I did. (Thanks)

Paula

02-08-2006, 03:29 PM

Thanks. Data is a good thing.

Someone please stop me from checking this thread. It's so interesting, but I'm supposed to be grading papers (unfortunately for this thread, they're not economics papers....)

SHELLY

02-08-2006, 04:50 PM

It may shock you to know that I do indeed know many of the folks who are bussing the tables and serving the drinks. Just as I am also friends with several small business owners in the area who employ them.
FOCUS!

OK...great. Now we've established a starting point. Since you know these folks personally what are they saying?

Are the table bussers and barkeeps happy with the wages they're making?

Are the business owners happy with quality and quantity of folks they're getting for the wages they're paying?

If they are, then:

(1) there really is no problem
OR
(2) there is no problem in your area that needs addressing

If they're NOT happy...what do THEY want?

Seems like you're the guy on the ground...let us know what "real world" research you've collected and we can start from there. I'm ready to focus!

SHELLY

02-08-2006, 05:11 PM

The problem is when someone finishes their degree, they either end up leaving the area or going back to their old job because of the lack of middle income white collar jobs in the area. There is a huge underemployment problem in the area, which means that the white collar jobs in a pleasant environment in many cases pay utter shyte, even by Southern standards.

Mouse,
I hear ya talkin', that will always be a problem--even more so now that we can outsource anything from accounting to engineering via the internet to cheap labor in far-off lands.

The problem with the economy on the panhandle is that it is trying to become a upscale resort community that has essentially drained the fuel (services workers) need to make the economic engine run. We've put long-range community and economic planning on the back burner in favor of near-term huge profits for a selected few.

There will be some relief down the road as the real estate frenzy wears down and becomes a local source of additional service labor...but will the $12.50 be enough to support their lifestyle? And will there be enough in the area to take on the number of jobs coming on line? Time will tell.

Paula

02-08-2006, 05:12 PM

Yes, the people who know (or who are) waiters and business owners could get some answers about what it's like to do service work in the area if they want to spend some time doing so (Kimmifunn gave her first-hand opinion). And the people who state their position in economic terms (e.g., minimum wage) can get some useful data, too, based on more general economic trends if they want to spend some time doing so. Both strategies would be useful -- it's called systematic research. But it looks like we are not likely to do either through this message board (Heck, I'm not going to) because the board is in large part entertainment. So (1) we should remember that many of our comments are based on opinion rooted in our own view of the world rather than any real research -- for whatever reasons some of us want to promote an "it's going to crash" view of SoWal and others want to promote a "what a great place to be" view of SoWal (both, of course, are simplistic views, though they each promote different kinds of behaviors and solutions to problems), and (2) that's why we need to do what we can in small ways as individuals to make SoWal better for business owners, workers, guests, owners, etc. -- at least until someone gets some data (and it probably should be long-term data).

SJ or someone: Can you pull me out of the sandbox... turn my attention back to the food thread? I can't seem to stop myself. :doh:

Smiling JOe

02-08-2006, 05:51 PM

kurt

02-08-2006, 05:57 PM

Doesn't a local market usually settle in to a local minimum wage? With some variations and some back and forth?

Smiling JOe

02-08-2006, 06:01 PM

Doesn't a local market usually settle in to a local minimum wage? With some variations and some back and forth?I think you are correct, Kurt. If an employer want employees, he better be paying the going rate or be willing to work all by his lonesome. Several employers such as Seaside and WaterColor apparently are not willing to pay employees, so they are paying the Walton Sun et al to run ads year round. I guess with WaterColor, it could also be that in order to get cheaper liability insurance, they drug screen ther employee applicants for illegal drugs, which many people feel invades their privacy.

Lady D

02-08-2006, 06:28 PM

If 39 1/2 hours was considered part-time, every company would work 39 1/2 hours instead of 40 to avoid paying benefits. Except, of course, those companies with a big, compassionate heart. (I've heard of a company like that, but it was long, long ago.---In a foreign country). In my region, 26 hours a week or more is considered full-time. Since the federal mininum wage is still just $5.15 an hour, although some states have higher mininum wages of their own, even the highest I saw was at around $7.63 an hour and that is not enough to pay rent and all other living expenses including utilities and groceries and gas, especially if they have to drive 2 hours each way to their work. Pitiful situation!

beachwanabe

02-08-2006, 07:01 PM

Please bare with me, as my wife says I can be long winded.

We always vacationed at Carrilon Beach at the west end of Bay County, never wanted to venture east into Bay very much just to eat at a few places. After retiring, In June of 2003 I stumbled on a place called Palmetto Trace, I was ready to buy an affordable second home, however I had to get in a lottery to get a lot because of what I was told to make it fair to everyone as investors were starting to buy. Well, I finally got my packet to get in the lottery some 15 months later, oddly enough a week after Ivan hit in September 2004. The house I had wanted went from $142,000 to $225,000 during that time frame which put me out of range for a second home.

The other day I read an old post on this site about St Joe stock, a comment about them making bad investments by gearing to lower income developments such as Palmetto Trace.

Now to my point we all know the profits made in this area since 2000, once the profit takers realize there is a real need for affordable single family housing with a real community feel in this area things could improve. I don't know the area north of 30A but maybe it's inland a few miles, but it would help with the problem of workers. Many people like myself and other baby boomers taking early retirement would be glad to take part time jobs, just to live here half the year.

I may be way off, but this is just my personal feelings/ideas.

Lady D

02-08-2006, 09:26 PM

I too would like to own a home there. We rent on the west end of the beach at Inlet Beach. We do all our activities in PC Beach. I looked online one time at homes in PC Beach and could not believe I found homes listed for what ours cost that are not on the coast and some for less. Our home appraised for around $103,500 for a house a little over 1500 square feet with actually just what they call two bedrooms and one bath although a 1/2 bath exists also off of a room like a den. Some homes I viewed online were around that and I even saw one fairly nice home around $90,000.00! Of course, these were not on the beach. Didn't think any existed that cheap there.

Smiling JOe

02-08-2006, 09:46 PM

If 39 1/2 hours was considered part-time, every company would work 39 1/2 hours instead of 40 to avoid paying benefits....

Not true.

From Dol.gov:
"The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) does not define part-time or full-time employment; rather, this is generally a matter of agreement between the employer and the employee."

Lady D

02-08-2006, 10:21 PM

You talk about some one-sided, employer-slanted laws check them out at:

http://www.dol.gov/dolfaq/dolfaqBYsubtopic.asp?subtopicid=6&title=Work+Hours&topicid=1&thetopicname=Wages+%26+Work+Hours

Smiling JOe

02-08-2006, 10:39 PM

You talk about some one-sided, employer-slanted laws check them out at:

http://www.dol.gov/dolfaq/dolfaqBYsubtopic.asp?subtopicid=6&title=Work+Hours&topicid=1&thetopicname=Wages+%26+Work+Hours:idontno:perhaps you meant to give a specific link rather than a list of FAQs? Please relate it to SoWal.

WaltonUndercurrent

02-08-2006, 11:05 PM

Lady D

02-08-2006, 11:23 PM

One of those FAQs related what you stated earlier in regards to the full-time employment question. It is really enlightening to view some of the laws or "no-laws" that pertain to labor and employment. It seems that our lawmakers believe in a more-or-less hands off approach to labor rules and regulations at least as it applies to employee benefits.

montana

02-08-2006, 11:38 PM

I do I do....full timers choose it ......they complain but they choose to live here and they wouldn't leave if momma made them. I've watched for years waiters and bussers and service staff say: need to move on get some cash and get a life......most of them are still in it....good waiter down here makes.....45k a year or more depending on what's reported and who they work for...I can think of a few people that did really well being waitstaff and bought on 30a, waiters! Now, granted that time has passed but take a look at some of the staff round here and see how long they have been there! Easy work schedule, days off, great working atmospheres! If I was going to blame some of the problems on someone, I'd say it was the landlords of the shops themselves. commercial rent around here is astronomical. how is a business owner going to pay top wages and make an income and pay 65/ft? and we are seasonal still! If we had a year round consistant crowd maybe..look at how someone like B and A's has to cut staff or any store or service oriented place/job...Seaside loses like 50 employee's a season. no wonder we see so many transient workers...it's not that bad really, look at all the successful jumps waiters made to real estate, I see many that are doing very well.......hmmm, couple of weeks in class, take a job for remax and boom cash money.....well maybe not that easy! I'm a normal guy, married, one kid live in Sowal and am fairing ok.....no education to speak of, not overly connected, just came down and went to work. It's not my first tourist town to live in and this problem is pretty much the norm! you won't see alot of affordable housing cause the county has to balance the issues that come along with it.....schools, police, crime,abuse etc....with the service staff you bring in its darker side. and we are all so bright and shiny people! oh we could go on and on about this!

Paula

02-09-2006, 06:32 AM

Here's the deal. Investors don't care about affordable housing. Second home owners don't care about affordable housing. People who vacation here cook shrimp, make sandwiches, sit on the beach and go back to their home where there is affordable food, housing, things to do, etc. How many people responding to this thread actually live here - full-time. I want to know how many people who have an opinion have lived here full-time, longer than three or more continuous years, have their jobs here, their futures here. How many perspectives are there? Where are they coming from? How many of you are actually locals??? I want to know so I can evaluate the opinions of those who know what they are talking about and those who don't.

If you spend a weekend a month or a couple of weeks a year or visit friends or family when you get the time, I'd like to know so I can judge who knows, and who does not know, what they are talking about.

I humbly agree with you on this one, WaltonUndercurrent (which is why I'm going to try to keep my opinions off of this thread now). Though I care deeply about SoWal and expect to live there much of the year in about 7 years and do some kind of work there, I am not there often enough now to have a deep understanding of the current year-round situation that would enable me to have a better understanding of the consequences of different ideas (although I will most certainly live with the consequences at some point). In particular, I appreciate the first-hand comments on this thread of the people who have worked in SoWal as waiters/waitresses, as well as the comments from the people who are actually looking around for affordable housing around Panama City Beach.

John R

02-09-2006, 07:43 AM

you'd figure the large developement companies would take the lead in the housing situation, since they are highly dependant on the workers needed, but it's all about the $/acre. old news, i know. st. joe is relatively new at this but leucadia is not. they've been dealing with resort labor and development issues for years already, in salt lake, telluride, napa, and now here and a new 'community' in maine. i see no employee housing covenants included in docs at rosemary or draper lake. the slack will have to be addressed by the county. they'll end up being a landlord of apt style housing units that will be the only place the above mentioned employees can afford. hopefully the county will wake up soon and demand a portion of density be directed towards workforce housing.

leucadia article
http://www.workingwaterfront.com/article.asp?storyID=20051105

jr

kurt

02-09-2006, 07:48 AM

Smiling JOe

02-09-2006, 08:09 AM

The county did direct Joe to include AH before approving WaterSound North. But I don't believe specifics were addressed other than number of units....and "affordable housing" really does not address housing for the service labor pool. It is more likely to be geared toward management, but at least it is a start.

beachmouse

02-09-2006, 08:32 AM

Semi-local here. We moved down here in 1998, and have been living next county over since then. The first place we lived was on Okaloosa Island, and we paid $600/month to rent a two bedroom townhouse just across the way from the Best Western that was like a minute's walk to the beach. When units went up for sale in our building, they were going for $60-$70K. We thought it was really cool that middle class folks could live so close to the Gulf, and that even though pay was pretty terrible in some ways, housing was cheap enough that a service industry couple could still afford to buy a home not too far from work.

Funny how things change so quickly.

John R

02-09-2006, 08:50 AM

Uncle Timmy

02-09-2006, 08:58 AM

OK...great. Now we've established a starting point. Since you know these folks personally what are they saying?

Seems like you're the guy on the ground...let us know what "real world" research you've collected and we can start from there. I'm ready to focus!

No, I'm not the starting point. My perspective is too limited due to the fact that most of my friends have been here a long time and are comfortably established.

But, I can understand the help a well researched line of reasoning on this topic would be to new arrivals/business owners.

That is why I am asking the question instead of answering it.

Smiling JOe

02-09-2006, 01:23 PM

that's good to know kurt, thanks. what needs to be figured out now is what is considered to be affordable housing; - multi-unit dwellings for hourly workers, - deed restricted, max resale cap single family homes, or - smaller sq foot dwellings that will be slated as AH, but will be snapped up by those in the know before the common joe even knows they're available.

jrThe gov't has a definition for "affordable housing" and it is based on income levels of people in the particular county. The last time I saw the numbers, most houses falling into that category would still be somewhat "unaffordable" to young service employees wanting to purchase a home. You can probably do a search to find the numbers for WalCo.

SHELLY

02-09-2006, 03:29 PM

No, I'm not the starting point. My perspective is too limited due to the fact that most of my friends have been here a long time and are comfortably established.

But, I can understand the help a well researched line of reasoning on this topic would be to new arrivals/business owners.

That is why I am asking the question instead of answering it.

Now...if they could just find a place to live in SoWal for $816 per month (including utilities) and a job that pays $15.68 per hour employees would be on Easy Street.

It Says Living in Walton is Cheap! (http://www.nlihc.org/oor2005/data.php?getstate=on&getcounty=on&county%5B%5D=377&state%5B%5D=FL)

Now let's move on to buying medical insurance and 401K funding.

montana

02-09-2006, 03:40 PM

well, what about the development on S. Church street in Santa Rosa. Those are entry level homes at best and if that is the standard set around here...I'll pass. :confused:

Uncle Timmy

02-09-2006, 03:58 PM

Now...if they could just find a place to live in SoWal for $816 per month (including utilities) and a job that pays $15.68 per hour employees would be on Easy Street.

It Says Living in Walton is Cheap! (http://www.nlihc.org/oor2005/data.php?getstate=on&getcounty=on&county%5B%5D=377&state%5B%5D=FL)

Now let's move on to buying medical insurance and 401K funding.

Very helpful link.

I noticed however, that you quoted the state numbers.

For the FWB/Crestview/Destin area the Fair Market Rent for a 2 bedroom place is $628. And the corresponding hourly rate was $12.08.

I doubt anyone can find a 2 bedroom apt. in sowal for $628/month but if we believe the data, those places are available within a 30-45 min commute of us.

Interesting, Maybe this will be of help to someone.

SHELLY

02-09-2006, 04:14 PM

Very helpful link.

I doubt anyone can find a 2 bedroom apt. in sowal for $628/month but if we believe the data, those places are available within a 30-45 min commute of us.
Maybe this will be of help to someone.

(1) I don't believe in the data. (I'd believe in Santa first)

(2) Employers who do use this data should give their employees a list of these $628 per month apartments (including utilities) along with their wage offer.

(3) Doesn't adequately reflect apartments taken off the market for "condo conversions" or prices jacked up with "hurricane/real estate boom" premiums.

If business people in SoWal and Destin are using these numbers to justify low wages....they're going to end up getting what they paid for.

Kimmifunn

02-09-2006, 04:28 PM

When I moved down there last year for "work" I scowered the place for "affordable" housing. I ended up renting an apartment in Destin- where I was working- at Legacy on the Bay. That was one of LITERALLY about 4 apartment complexes. There's nowhere to live. I was in a 2br and it was like $1050 or something like that. It was a super nice development. But unless I wanted to go over a bridge (Mid-Bay or 331) there's slim pickins. Sooo when they hand over that list I'd love to see it. Not to mention...those 4 complexes have HUGE waiting lists. I somehow walked in the same day someone cancelled moving in. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Sandestin offers housing... I came upon it and we had to ask around to figure it out. I also checked out a senior living home. I was desperate.

Uncle Timmy

02-09-2006, 04:32 PM

(1) I don't believe in the data. (I'd believe in Santa first)

(2) Employers who do use this data should give their employees a list of these $628 per month apartments (including utilities) along with their wage offer.

(3) Doesn't adequately reflect apartments taken off the market for "condo conversions" or prices jacked up with "hurricane/real estate boom" premiums.

If business people in SoWal and Destin are using these numbers to justify low wages....they're going to end up getting what they paid for.

Well Ho, Ho, Ho

I spoke with a friend who has just moved into a one bedroom apartment in FWB and is paying $650/month.

He looked at places between FWB and Freeport and reports that one bedrooms ranged from $400 to $800 a month, two bedrooms from $600 to $1,000 a month.

Kimmifunn

02-09-2006, 05:00 PM

http://www.legacyonthebay.com/s/homepage

4 Bedroom for $1500...not bad split 4 ways.

Smiling JOe

02-09-2006, 05:18 PM

I guess since no one has any idea of what is a living wage in SoWal, we are drifting to the question we must first answer in order to decipher the living wage? I can tell you from what I hear on the street, long-term rent, on avg for a 3/2 in SoWal is around $1300 per mo, plus utilities. Now, lets tackle the question, (and yes, I am changing it to "living wage") what is a living wage in SoWal?

beachmouse

02-09-2006, 05:37 PM

My employer got tired of having prospective employees turn down job offers over the housing issue, and has ended up building its own apartment complex so that new faculty will at least have one affordable housing option. Right now the apartments are being described as priced below market rate, and they're within walking distance to work (nice because a working couple can get away with one car then). They're supposed to be finished with construction some time this summer. Pretty average looking small complex so far, but at least they've managed to keep a couple of the neat live oaks in the common areas. It'll be interesting to see how many people who work here take them up on the offer.

Smiling JOe

02-09-2006, 05:46 PM

SHELLY

02-10-2006, 12:06 AM

Well Ho, Ho, Ho
I spoke with a friend who has just moved into a one bedroom apartment in FWB and is paying $650/month.
He looked at places between FWB and Freeport and reports that one bedrooms ranged from $400 to $800 a month, two bedrooms from $600 to $1,000 a month.

But let's take a drive from FWB to SoWal to go to work, shall we??

1) Leave FWB drive through town (past lots of Help Wanted Signs)
2) Over the Brooks bridge down Okaloosa Island (past lots of Help Wanted Signs)
3) Drive through Destin (Past LOTS of help wanted signs)
4) Drive past Destin Commons (Past lots of help wanted signs)
5) Drive past Silvershells Outlet shops (Past lots of help wanted signs)
6) Drive farther down 98 (More help wanted signs)
7) Turn onto whichever street leading down to 30A
8) Arrive at work 1 to 1-1/2 hours later (depending on traffic)

Then doing the same thing in reverse at night?? 5 times a week!

Why on earth would someone travel 65 miles round trip and burn up 3 gallons of gas (@ $2.25 - $2.50), while bypassing NUMEROUS businesses offering up job opportunities with comparable wages to the same jobs being offered along 30A? What do the places in SoWal offer that places in Ft Walton and Destin don't? What can they offer that will make the person residing in FWB drive all that way 5 times a week in hot, humid, high-summer-season traffic?

Oh...I dunno....HIGHER WAGES maybe?? :idontno:

The laws of supply and demand built SoWal up to where it is--low supply and high demand = sky-high real estate prices. Those same forces will apply to workers and wages--low supply and high demand = higher wages. What's sauce for the goose...is sauce for the waiter serving the goose.

The business folks can rationalize the problems away all they want--the rubber will meet the road when they try to find reliable, motivated and hard-working staff when summer hits and patrons waiving money want service NOW!--the managers and asst managers will be run ragged and the business owners will stand flat-footed and clueless as to why folks are not flocking to those $10-12 per hour jobs in paradise.

SHELLY

02-10-2006, 12:09 AM

SHELLY

02-10-2006, 12:20 AM

http://www.legacyonthebay.com/s/homepage

4 Bedroom for $1500...not bad split 4 ways.

Condos in Destin won't even rent to people under the age of 25. I'm sure Legacy on the Bay won't be too accommodating to four 18-20 year olds sharing an apartment. Trust me on this one.

Kimmifunn

02-10-2006, 06:57 AM

Condos in Destin won't even rent to people under the age of 25. I'm sure Legacy on the Bay won't be too accommodating to four 18-20 year olds sharing an apartment. Trust me on this one.
Didn't even think of that. Well that narrows it down that much more...

Smiling JOe

02-10-2006, 08:09 AM

Shelly, post #58 is well said and very true for people choosing to live in FWB, Destin, or Niceville, and for those living in Niceville, add $5 toll to the daily drive to work. When Freeport gets built out over the next 15 years, the same will hold true for anyone coming from north of the Bay. In the future, the same will also be true for people coming from PCB.

Knowing this, let's examine the issue of someone living in SoWal in the rental house costing $1300 per month, sharing the rent with one or two other people.

Uncle Timmy

02-10-2006, 08:43 AM

But let's take a drive from FWB to SoWal to go to work, shall we??

1) Leave FWB drive through town (past lots of Help Wanted Signs)
2) Over the Brooks bridge down Okaloosa Island (past lots of Help Wanted Signs)
3) Drive through Destin (Past LOTS of help wanted signs)
4) Drive past Destin Commons (Past lots of help wanted signs)
5) Drive past Silvershells Outlet shops (Past lots of help wanted signs)
6) Drive farther down 98 (More help wanted signs)
7) Turn onto whichever street leading down to 30A
8) Arrive at work 1 to 1-1/2 hours later (depending on traffic)

Then doing the same thing in reverse at night?? 5 times a week!

Why on earth would someone travel 65 miles round trip and burn up 3 gallons of gas (@ $2.25 - $2.50), while bypassing NUMEROUS businesses offering up job opportunities with comparable wages to the same jobs being offered along 30A? What do the places in SoWal offer that places in Ft Walton and Destin don't? What can they offer that will make the person residing in FWB drive all that way 5 times a week in hot, humid, high-summer-season traffic?

Oh...I dunno....HIGHER WAGES maybe?? :idontno:

....And now that you've answered your own question, FOCUS and let's determine what that wage ought to be.

beachmouse

02-10-2006, 10:15 AM

The jobs my employer is having problems filling because of housing costs advertise starting pay of $37-$45K per year, which is in the top 25% pay-wise for those kinds of jobs in the Southeast. Granted, these are different housing and living wage expectations that the service workers, but it's a problem that goes pretty far up the wage chain.

Smiling JOe

02-10-2006, 10:27 AM

You are right BeachMouse, the problem does go up the chain. Who wants to be a manager in the service industry in SoWal when the same person could be an hourly staffer making more money without the responsibilties and headaches that come from not having staff? You would have to pay me $100K per year to take a management job like that down here, and you better not expect me to work more than 50 hours per week.

SHELLY

02-10-2006, 11:54 AM

....And now that you've answered your own question, FOCUS and let's determine what that wage ought to be.

I think Joe is on the right track--the hourly wage for service workers should be based on living wages for the SoWal area--not commuting from cheaper housing areas.

There would be too high a premium that would have to be tacked on to encourage people to drive that far, in the heat, in the traffic, through areas closer to home where their skills are in high demand.

I think if businesses in SoWal want to fix this, they have 4 choices:

(1) Turn back the clock to a time before "low cost housing" was pushed out of the area

(2) Provide on-site housing for employees as part of their wages

(3) Start charging $35 for a grouper sandwich, cut their profit margin, and start paying employees enough to live in the SoWal area (with at least a 1-year binding employment contract).

(4) Open a family-run business.

Uncle Timmy

02-10-2006, 12:14 PM

Knowing this, let's examine the issue of someone living in SoWal in the rental house costing $1300 per month, sharing the rent with one or two other people.

Let's assume two people splitting that rent, or $650 each per month.

If we agree with the previous data, ie that a person's housing should equate to no more than 30% of income.....

We arrive at $2,166 monthly income, $26,000 annual, or about $12-13/hour rate.

beachmouse

02-10-2006, 12:36 PM

Add another $1-2K on top of that to pay for individual health insruance if the employer is not going to provide it.

Smiling JOe

02-10-2006, 01:20 PM

monthly housing costs per person(all costs split evenly by two people):
rent - $650 ea ($1300 split by two people)
power - $50 ea
water/sewer - $60 ea
phone - $15 ea
cable/internet - $30 ea (many people consider this a requirement for living)
renter's insurance - $50 ea
----------------------------
-Totalling $855 per month per person.
-Using the 30% method of housing costs to salary/wages, ($855/.30) = $2850 per month per person.
- This equates to $665 per week per person, which breaks down to $16.63 per person, per hour, based on a 40 hr work week. This calculation is for the entry level service employee chosing to live in the lower rent rental homes in SoWal, and sharing the home with another person.
**************************************************
If someone wanted to live alone in SoWal in smaller home, he or she could expect rent to be cheaper, but will be carrying all of the expenses. I think he or she could expect the following monthly expenses:

rent - $1000
power - $80
water/sewer - $45
phone - $35
cable/internet - $30 (probably get nothing more than basic cable to save)
renter's insurance - $75
-----------------------
-Totalling $1265 per month per person.
-Using the 30% method of housing costs to salary/wages, ($1265/.30) = $4217 per month.
- This equates to $984 per week, which breaks down to $24.50 per hour based on a 40 hr work week.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
As I mentioned before, this is a starting level. There are a limited number of rentals available at this price, and these examples given are the cheaper rents currently on the market.

Please keep in mind that we have not even calculated income taxes in this scenerio. These calculations are pre-taxed dollars, but we all know that taxes are deducted on every pay check in the real world.

Obviously, tipped employees could be okay with lower hourly pay from the employers as long as their tipped average wages were => those I mention.

I hope you guys remember this the next time you moan and groan about the prices of things at the beach. The entry level workers are the ones taking the hits so that other people can get the services they want.

I don't eat out all the time, I could never afford to do so, but if I cannot leave a fat tip, and I am not talking about 20%, I don't eat out. ;-)

Again, I am not saying we need a minimum wage of such numbers, just that if employers want to attract and keep employees, they should look closely at the numbers posted above to establish a minimum.

Presently, I am not about to calculate the salary needed for a mid-level manager who wants to buy the starter home, costing $300K in SoWal. If someone else wants to do so, be sure to include the cost of homeowner's insurance and taxes. The calculation is easy, but most of you will freak out when you see the minimum salary needed.

florida girl

02-10-2006, 02:31 PM

I think Shelly has hit on a real problem here, however I don't think all the data is being shared. I'm not sure raising the minimum wage is the cure, but a patch on the symptom. If you go north, into the area where most of the workers live you will find the problem. A large percentage of the work force working for little more than minimum wage are not the children of the middle class, they are the sole wage earner for the family, often including the care of an elderly parent who is trying to survive on only their social security income. These jobs are great for the children of the middle class, but where is the middle class??? What is needed is an indepth study of what the largest employers actually pay ie the county in particular, as they set the standard often times with the rest of the employers in the county. I think you'll find that their wages are grieviously low. They are conserned about comparing themselves with the neighboring counties instead of doing their own research as to what Walton county needs are. Our county has broken the mold, and has too many variables. Look around at who is actually working at your neighborhood gas station, or the grocery store, or Walmart, or where ever it is you travel; they are not teenagers, or students, they are older people. Generally you think parents would be living on a retirement pension from the company they worked for, but do you see any company like that here? No. I sometimes think that the people that move here do so to get away from their children, knowing that the children can't afford to live here on the wages that are available. I feel the solution is to bring in larger more stable companies that pay a better wage. I don't think that there is an imediate fix, but things must start moving in that direction. As far as bringing in immigrants, as long as employers can do this and get government perks for it, wages and conditions will never be better for our people. They don't have to improve. Although you basically get what you pay for.

SHELLY

02-10-2006, 06:07 PM

I think the 30% figure includes all costs for housing, including rent, utilities, renter's insurance, etc. Also remember that this calculation is based on zero income tax.

Shelly, I know you are somewhat kidding, but regarding #3 on your list, please keep in mind the effects of charging $35 for a grouper sandwich. The restaurant will lose many customers to Publix and cooking at home, thereby causing the business to lay off people, and bring in less gross income, eventually closing the business all together.

In a way it I wasn't kidding about the $35 sandwich. Laying off people will be the least of the worries (as decent service workers will remain in high demand from Biloxi to SoWal). The tragedy will be for the business owners losing their livelihood and the visitors having to travel to Destin :shock: or PCB :eek: in search of entertainment and a meal. It's the price SoWal now must pay for its rush to gentrification.

SHELLY

02-10-2006, 06:11 PM

Let's assume two people splitting that rent, or $650 each per month.

If we agree with the previous data, ie that a person's housing should equate to no more than 30% of income.....

We arrive at $2,166 monthly income, $26,000 annual, or about $12-13/hour rate.

TWT,

I can tell you are totally convinced that $12.50 is the magic number that will attract employees to SoWal businesses.

Smiling JOe

02-10-2006, 06:19 PM

TWT,

I can tell you are totally convinced that $12.50 is the magic number that will attract employees to SoWal businesses.Shelly, I don't think TWT is at all convinced as such. He has a geniune concern and question. Even if one calculates the wage based on all of the factors mentioned, there are only so many homes to rent at the price I mention, and many more employees needed. Also, not everyone want to rent. Perhaps we should also look at the cost of buying a home in SoWal and looking at wages based on that too.

To clarify, we are not trying to set a minimum wage, but simply trying to find the hourly wage point where people can live and work in SoWal in order to keep services coming and businesses open.

Amp22

02-10-2006, 08:17 PM

Florida Girl - your profile shows your occupation as low income housing owner - can you give us some specifics to help out the discussion? What is your experience with rents and where are yours located?

Uncle Timmy

02-11-2006, 08:51 AM

TWT,

I can tell you are totally convinced that $12.50 is the magic number that will attract employees to SoWal businesses.

Nope

Experience in life has taught me there are rarely single solutions to any problem; and for that matter that any problem exists in isolation without influence from other issues.

As I am interested in all these related issues, I am mearly trying to push this discussion along.

And Shelly, when I said FOCUS - I didn't mean on me. I know my avatar is cute and all, and I'm very flattered but it would be better to focus on the issue at hand.

If you disagree with the $12.50/hour figure, present a line of reasoning and facts to push the discussion along.

Smiling JOe

02-11-2006, 09:23 AM

See post #69. Apparently, I edited it instead of posting a new post. :oops: oops!

SHELLY

02-11-2006, 12:33 PM

I think Joe's numbers are a good start--assuming of course one can find housing in SoWal for $1,000 per month. My guess is that places like that have long since been sold off for a hefty profit.

Settling on a single wage is far too simplistic. There are so many more variables to consider. For example:

Not all employees are waiters who would beef up their wages with tips (they also need house cleaners [tips are expected but rarely received]; food counter workers, clerks, lifeguards, beach chair attendants, reservation staff, security, etc.). The minimum wage will have to be set to draw in the non-tip employees.

Most of the jobs are seasonal and finding roommates and getting long-term leases wouldn't apply.

Rental units in and around a decent driving distance are as rare as rocking horse manure. Going forward one must assume there are some homeowners willing to rent their "investment" to multiple tenants in the 18-to-20 age group [not likely]. Assuming this would happen...when employees are needed most (in the tourist season) home owners who may want to rent at other times of the year will pull their rentals off the market--why get $1200 a month when you can get $1400 a week?

Lots of younger folks [and older folks] have debt obligations (car payments, student loans, tire rims, cell phone bills) and poor credit scores that would not pass muster with landlords who run credit checks before renting.

Most people who go through the time and expense of moving into an area and settle down do so with the intention (and the need) to be employed full-time. Many of SoWal jobs that go begging wouldn't provide the security needed to make people consider such a move.

Finding folks to take summer jobs in the past worked because there was a good mix of various levels of income classes scattered around the panhandle. In Destin and Panama City there were several old mid-long term furnished beach apartments and homes that had no problem housing a bunch of service workers who migrated down from the North to make money during the summer season.

In the last 2-3 years all of that changed. Old motels and apartments were torn down and replaced (or are in the process of being replaced) by high-cost condos. Older rental houses were sold and the new owners have increased rent considerably trying to cover their carrying costs and make a profit. Whole communities of low-mid income families sold out or were priced out of the area. Along with them went an entire group of young family members willing to take low-wage jobs or adults willing to take a part-time weekend job to supplement their low salaries.

When all is said and done, I can't offer up any near-term or quick fix solution--I wish you luck trying. I DO know that $12.50 isn't going to attract the quality and quantity of employees needed to support the tourist season, but throwing money at the problem appears to be the only solution until affordable housing returns to SoWal or a massive migrant worker program is employed. I think SoWal businesses are going to have a tough go of it over the next few tourist seasons until they figure it out and they'd better figure it out soon before all those new condos and housing areas come on line and are filled with folks wanting to be serviced.

SHELLY

02-14-2006, 11:32 PM

A Focused Article (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/pbccentral/content/local_news/epaper/2005/11/13/m1a_affhomes_1113.html)

Smiling JOe

02-15-2006, 06:10 AM

Shelly, that article is a dead-on mirror of Walton Co. and I am surprised to see that the numbers even correlate. It is a little lengthy compared to most posts but extremely relavant and worthy of a full read. Good job finding and posting it. :clap_1:

kurt

02-15-2006, 07:40 AM

A scene repeated again and again.

What does the commissioner expect - for the developer to sell below market value and not make a profit?

"My brother bought a house three years ago in Olympia (a Wellington subdivision) for $330,000. That same house today is selling for $780,000," Palm Beach County Commission Chairman Tony Masilotti said. "Why is that? Profit taking.

"The developer bought that land 10 years ago at $45,000 an acre, and they get two units an acre. So what's different today? Why such a price increase? They're profit-taking."

Uncle Timmy

02-15-2006, 08:43 AM

SHELLY

02-15-2006, 01:04 PM

A scene repeated again and again.

What does the commissioner expect - for the developer to sell below market value and not make a profit?

Kurt,
I don't think that should be the case. Clearly, "speculative frenzy" has been a HUGE factor adding to the soaring price of real estate. Let's face it--granite countertops haven't appreciated 200% in the last couple of years. :confused: Condos--build a few hundred more. Land--carve out a few more acres and fill in the wetlands. People were clearly rushing to make money before the air started seeping out of the Real Estate Bubb....ah...Whoopee Cushion. (Smart developers, realtors and investors knew the party couldn't last forever.)

Capitalism and demand for higher profit has caused these problems--capitalism is the only answer to the problem. But until affordable housing magically returns to SoWal (which I don't see anytime soon--or at all)...luring workers to the area by offering more and more money (enough to provide a living wage) is the only answer.

BeachSteelers

07-08-2006, 09:49 AM

SHELLY

07-08-2006, 10:17 AM

Good reason for studying and obtaining a higher education. Stop Illegals from stealing job they are not due. Make legal Immagration the real priority. And wages and jobs will improve. Because now someone here illegally can't undermine your worth!

There aren't many "rocket scientist" want ads in the SoWal paper so obtaining a degree won't change the labor situation in the area.

There are only 3 solutions to solving the overall labor problems of SoWal going forward:

(1) Raise wages sufficiently to convince people it's worth their while to travel 2+ hours round-trip on "Bloody Highway 98" during the peak summer tourist season

OR

(2) Build "affordable" workers' housing very close to SoWal or with reasonable public transport available (affordable means the employee should be able to pay the rent and have enough money left over to eat, pay bills & medical, and save for retirement on the wages given).

OR

(3) Establish employment services which provide seasonal, cheap migrant workers (and feed & house the same), to keep service wages low.

beachmouse

07-08-2006, 11:11 AM

There aren't many "rocket scientist" want ads in the SoWal paper so obtaining a degree won't change the labor situation in the area.

Though if you don't mind the hour commute to Eglin from the Topsail/Sacred Heart area, there are always a good number of those rocket scientist/engineering jobs on base. Or at least as long as they don't yank 46th Test Wing to Edwards like they're now threatening.

redrocket

07-08-2006, 04:47 PM

:bang: something has got to give. red rocket rambles four days a week and barely makes gas money. i guess everyone is on the struggle, so bar owners aren't willing to pay enough to propigate our species and we are becoming endangered. thank god for people like smiling joe who respects the institution of tipping and supporting local entertainers. all your favorite places won't be any fun when there's no good live music because we all had to drive to panama or fwb to make 6-10 bucks an hour playing our hearts out. skilled labor or unskilled labor...what about the muse? where does he/she fall by the wayside in this? ill tell you, back to the land of the day job which allows no time for practice or family. then before you know it, another band bites the dust and the bar owner finds some dj to do karaoke for $150 and we have to listen to our firends from abroad sing their fav toby kieth song instead of hot live music. everyone feels this crunch...except for big developers who have us all dangling over the flame. exit soapbox:biggrin:

on a lighter note, come watch me make my 6-10 tonite at pandoras at 7pm. i will be validated in my efforts by your presence.

ps- this isn't a stab at bar owners, just a stated fact that many other musicians would agree with.

SHELLY

07-08-2006, 05:22 PM

on a lighter note, come watch me make my 6-10 tonite at pandoras at 7pm. i will be validated in my efforts by your presence.

ps- this isn't a stab at bar owners, just a stated fact that many other musicians would agree with.

May your tip jar runneth over. :D

Smiling JOe

07-08-2006, 05:27 PM

Sorry, I forgot to mention: please remember to tip the bands and your bartenders and servers. You pay no cover to see the bands down here, so the least you can do is throw a few bucks per person their way.

Rocket, you guys should hire Melanie to pass around the tip bucket. She always seems to get people off their wallets.

SHELLY

07-08-2006, 05:27 PM

Though if you don't mind the hour commute to Eglin from the Topsail/Sacred Heart area, there are always a good number of those rocket scientist/engineering jobs on base. Or at least as long as they don't yank 46th Test Wing to Edwards like they're now threatening.

If there are plenty of openings, obviously the pay and benefits aren't worth commuting or relocating to paradise for--then again, maybe prospective employees know something about the move that we don't....? :idontno:

Camp Creek Kid

07-08-2006, 07:00 PM

Good reason for studying and obtaining a higher education. Minimum wage is on par with socialism. the market will dictate what wages will be w/o gov't interference. Except when illegals are constantly allowed to steal jobs at lower wages.The home building industry is a prime example. W/O a Degree one could still make a decent(livable wage) but now it's inundated with migrant or illegal workers than are paid under the table. Look all along 30A to see. Or anywhere else in the US!! Why would any employer hire someone for say a $10 min wage when they can elude employment taxes & health benefits and hire 2 illegals for $5/hr and not pay 7.5% FICA. This is now spreading throughout corporate America. Call the phone company and talk to "William" from India. Am I the only one who recognizes this problem? Stop Illegals from stealing job they are not due. Make legal Immagration the real priority. And wages and jobs will improve. Because now someone here illegally can't undermine your worth!

Foreign workers (illegal or otherwise) make much more than $5 per hour. Just because a person speaks Spanish, it doesn't mean that they are stupid. Foreign workers recognize their value and know that if someone doesn't pay them the $10 an hour that they want, someone else down the road will. There is a labor shortage in the construction industry and those who are willing to work an honest day will get paid an honest day's wage. Any employer in the construction industry would love to hire hard working, dependable, honest and legal workers, but workers of this description do not exist. Also, every penny of profit that an employer makes is taxed. An employer cannot deduct an illegal employee's wages so the employer ends up taking the hit somewhere. The FICA does get paid even if it ends up being the employer who pays it as part of the 15% self-employment tax that he pays.

beachmouse

07-08-2006, 08:00 PM

It's not so much the relocation/living expenses for the rocket scientists down here. It's just a pretty limited employee pool when you're looking for someone with five to ten years direct weapons develoment experience and top secret clearance.

A family friend is a missle development guy on the base. Over the years, he's gotten much amusement from using the line "Well actually I am a rocket scientist."

SHELLY

07-09-2006, 12:52 AM

It's not so much the relocation/living expenses for the rocket scientists down here. It's just a pretty limited employee pool when you're looking for someone with five to ten years direct weapons develoment experience and top secret clearance.

I guess they'll have more luck filling the slots when they relocate to Calif--there are lots more "space cadets" out that way. :biggrin:

SHELLY

07-09-2006, 01:22 AM

Any employer in the construction industry would love to hire hard working, dependable, honest and legal workers, but workers of this description do not exist. Also, every penny of profit that an employer makes is taxed. An employer cannot deduct an illegal employee's wages so the employer ends up taking the hit somewhere.

Thanks for reminding me to light a candle tomorrow at church for the poor contractors who are "forced" to pay illegals $10 per hour under the table to build $70,000 condos they sell for $350,000. :( Sometimes life is just so damn unfair.

Camp Creek Kid

07-09-2006, 12:44 PM

Thanks for reminding me to light a candle tomorrow at church for the poor contractors who are "forced" to pay illegals $10 per hour under the table to build $70,000 condos they sell for $350,000. :( Sometimes life is just so damn unfair.

My post was in response to Beachsteelers post about not being able to find a decent construction job because illegals get paid $5/hour. This is not true. Illegals get paid more than that, they're not flooding the market with CHEAP labor, they pretty much are the only labor available. A legal worker who would actually work and be dependable would be very valuable to any employer and would get paid accordingly. It is a myth that illegal workers are taking jobs from legal workers.

Your numbers on construction are low. Try a minimum of $150/sq. ft. for construction costs alone then add to that land costs, interest, realtors commissions and you'll be closer to the mark.

Mango

07-09-2006, 10:22 PM

Presently, I am not about to calculate the salary needed for a mid-level manager who wants to buy the starter home, costing $300K in SoWal. If someone else wants to do so, be sure to include the cost of homeowner's insurance and taxes. The calculation is easy, but most of you will freak out when you see the minimum salary needed.

This would be too difficult to calculate due to all the variables involved.
How much money is this person putting down on the house? Most mid-level management people would have most likely already owned a home already or have saved some money for a down-payment. Further, what industries out there are employing middle managers? From what I have seen in the past couple of years of owning there in SoWal is either the business is run by an owner and they are employing service workers.(or trying to anyway)
Anyone who has enough business acumen does not stay working very long for anyone else. This is what I have heard from our landscapers, pool people etc., who I believe would fit your definition of service worker?

Mango

07-09-2006, 10:53 PM

Great article Shelly.

I think it can be very helpful to see how other municipalities are dealing with similar issues.

I found two points within the article very interesting:

1) The push for 'Inclusionary Zoning' laws which require developers to include affordable housing in developments.

2) That FL has a 'housing trust fund' intended to build and/or preserve affordable housing and that Gov. Jeb Bush has rountinely raided this fund to help balance his budgets instead of using the money for its intended purpose.

Has our discussion on minimum wage lead us to a discussion about 'Inclusionary Zoning'?

I agree with UT. However, I don't think inclusionary Zoning would work in SoWal right now with a 50 ft height restriction. Further, owners of homes in SoWal wiould most likely not want huge projects in the area.

I think a possible solution could be North. Allow developers to build their single family home developments, and give them tax incentives for building high rises that can be offered as rentals or coops for sale. In New York, developers are given huge tax breaks for developing affordable housing. They are also given tax abatements as well. Not sure if anyone is familiar with coops as they are not popular in Florida, but they are huge here in New York. Basically you own your apt. and shares in the corporation. They are a much more affordable solution for people vs. fee simple ownership. Further, quite a few people start out in coops, then rent them out, and move to single family homes as their careers progress. In some buildings that have not converted to coop, the original developers have to cap the rents as per law (rent controlled)

Allifunn

07-10-2006, 07:30 AM

I agree with UT. However, I don't think inclusionary Zoning would work in SoWal right now with a 50 ft height restriction. Further, owners of homes in SoWal wiould most likely not want huge projects in the area.

I think a possible solution could be North. Allow developers to build their single family home developments, and give them tax incentives for building high rises that can be offered as rentals or coops for sale. In New York, developers are given huge tax breaks for developing affordable housing. They are also given tax abatements as well. Not sure if anyone is familiar with coops as they are not popular in Florida, but they are huge here in New York. Basically you own your apt. and shares in the corporation. They are a much more affordable solution for people vs. fee simple ownership. Further, quite a few people start out in coops, then rent them out, and move to single family homes as their careers progress. In some buildings that have not converted to coop, the original developers have to cap the rents as per law (rent controlled)What is the difference between coop and condo?

Mango

07-10-2006, 08:58 AM

[QUOTE=Allifunn]What is the difference between coop and condo?[/QUOTE

Coops are Shares in a corporation that owns the building. Proprietary Lease establishes occupancy terms. No recording of a deed or central recording of sale information.A Group of residents, mostly owners, that have the right to accept or reject applicant owners or tenants. Not appealable. Maintenance - Monthly payment that consists of building upkeep, real estate taxes and payment of the underlying coop loan, generally from when the building was converted to a coop from a rental building. In most cases 40% to 60% of the maintenance is tax deductible. Real Estate Taxes - Included in Maintenance. Some buildings have abatements that do run out and thus increase taxes later on.Prospectus / Black Book / Offering Plan and Amendments - Outline the terms of the original coop offering and amendments update along with rules of the buildingFinancials - Prepared Yearly by outside accountant to determine financial status and profitability of the coop.
Management Company - Outside company that collects maintenance, operates the building, maintains records. Smaller building may be "self managed by the occupants / owners.Financing - Certain coops have financing restrictions (down payment minimums, income minimums, etc.).
Sublet / Renting - Generally require board approval. Certain boards do not allow subletting or place limit on the sublet (2 year maximum, 1 year minimum, etc.) Sale - Certain coops have a transfer fee / flip tax that each coop seller must pay back to the coop upon sale of the unit

CONDO: Condominiums
orm of Ownership - Deed that is recorded at the county clerk's. Transferable as any other house or property.
Board Approval - 99% of the time not required.
Common Charges - Monthly payment that consists solely of building upkeep.
Real Estate Taxes - Each individual owner pays their own on each unit.
Prospectus / Black Book / Offering Plan and Amendments - Outline the terms of the original offering and amendments update along with rules of the building.
Financials - Prepared Yearly by outside accountant to determine financial status and profitability of the condo association.
Management Company - Outside company that collects maintenance, operates the building, maintains records. Smaller building may be "self managed by the occupants / owners.
Condo Attorney - Generally non existent.
Financing - Only restrictions are lender required.
Sublet / Renting - Generally no restrictions.
Sale - No restrictions. Generally no costs.

Coops are generally less expensive than condos due to the tax abatements on the land by the City. Also, some coops have commercial storefronts that help with lowering the monthly maintenance for the owners.