Construction Costs on 30a

[Jellyfish]

Hi- been lurking for a while, really useful site, great info and have enjoyed most of the banter! We've been vacationing in SoWal for years with intent to buy eventually, so glad to see prices (apparently) taking a little bit of a breather from going up 20% a year. I am hoping it will be more of a balanced (ie: non speculative) market over the next couple of years with all the factors coming into play (interest rates, build out dates, storms, etc).

After cashing out of some West Coast property (if you think SoWal prices are high, go out to CA, Long Island, etc :shock: ), I will be able to jump on a great deal, not in a particular hurry. Have not decided to buy a lot or finished house, probably depends on what best deal is.

At this point probably looking for a non-overly planned (ie: Watercolor, etc) community, not on beach but within easy bike/walk, typical plank/tin roof FLA cottage style with average finishings. What cost per SF can I expect in SoWal at this point?

[Smiling JOe]

Hi- been lurking for a while, really useful site, great info and have enjoyed most of the banter! We've been vacationing in SoWal for years with intent to buy eventually, so glad to see prices (apparently) taking a little bit of a breather from going up 20% a year. I am hoping it will be more of a balanced (ie: non speculative) market over the next couple of years with all the factors coming into play (interest rates, build out dates, storms, etc).

After cashing out of some West Coast property (if you think SoWal prices are high, go out to CA, Long Island, etc :shock: ), I will be able to jump on a great deal, not in a particular hurry. Have not decided to buy a lot or finished house, probably depends on what best deal is.

At this point probably looking for a non-overly planned (ie: Watercolor, etc) community, not on beach but within easy bike/walk, typical plank/tin roof FLA cottage style with average finishings. What cost per SF can I expect in SoWal at this point?Much of the costs are determined by the materials used. The average beach home with medium grade finishings will run you around $145-$175 per heated cooled sf if you hire a builder to build it. Architect fees will be additional and can vary greatly.

[Donna]

This is one of the reasons that South Walton home prices are still a screaming bargain compared to CA and some other locations. In our Napa Valley community, which is obviously not coastal, construction costs for residential structures start at around $400 per sq. ft., not including the architect's fees or building permit fees and plan check for approval of the drawings. Still, real estate continues to increase in value at a high rate than anywhere in the nation. Why? Our growth management planning exerts a very strong control over how much is built every year...so supply and demand.

We are also very deliberate about protecting our agricultural lands and quality of life for residents already here and we make new development pay its own way. The developer has to offer more than just property tax (always a negative) and bed tax incentives. They are required to build a certain amount of affordable housing, pay for road and other infrastructure improvements, and provide open space and park land. I am working on two small luxury inns in our area, one a 40-room inn that will provide 14 units of workforce housing and a complete historic restoration and the other a 20-room inn that will provide at least 10 workforce units. It is the cost of doing business in a nice area that many people are drawn to. Makes me sad to see all these big developments going on in South Walton, especially hotel and resort projects, with absolutely no requirement that they contribute to the growing need for workforce housing for lower-income service workers. When there is finally a wake-up call, the need will be overwhelming and the acceptable projects smaller in scope so far less likely to make such requirements feasible. :idontno:

[Snapper Grabber]

There is at least one really good deal in Grove by the Sea at this time. Have you discovered that neighborhood? It is in a great location with the beach being a very short walk or bikeride away. Turn north on Andalusia Ave, less than one mile east of Seaside.

[SHELLY]

Makes me sad to see all these big developments going on in South Walton, especially hotel and resort projects, with absolutely no requirement that they contribute to the growing need for workforce housing for lower-income service workers. When there is finally a wake-up call, the need will be overwhelming and the acceptable projects smaller in scope so far less likely to make such requirements feasible. :idontno:

I think it's already too late for most of SoWal. Only after residents find out they can't get a service technician, pizza guy or fireman to come to their house will they put 2-and-2 together...in the meantime the developers are counting their money and moving on to the next "upscale" project.

[Jellyfish]

This is one of the reasons that South Walton home prices are still a screaming bargain compared to CA and some other locations. In our Napa Valley community, which is obviously not coastal, construction costs for residential structures start at around $400 per sq. ft., not including the architect's fees or building permit fees and plan check for approval of the drawings. Still, real estate continues to increase in value at a high rate than anywhere in the nation. Why? Our growth management planning exerts a very strong control over how much is built every year...so supply and demand.

We are also very deliberate about protecting our agricultural lands and quality of life for residents already here and we make new development pay its own way. The developer has to offer more than just property tax (always a negative) and bed tax incentives. They are required to build a certain amount of affordable housing, pay for road and other infrastructure improvements, and provide open space and park land.

Don't disagree with the community benefits, but this jacks the prices up to levels that force out most regular folks. I seriously doubt the majority of homeowners that currently are in SoWal could afford the beach life if it cost $400/sf to build a basic Fla cottage and the lot prices are doubled or tripled. A little more attention paid to intelligent growth in SoWal would be nice, but hopefully not overreglated, CA style.

[Jellyfish]

There is at least one really good deal in Grove by the Sea at this time. Have you discovered that neighborhood? It is in a great location with the beach being a very short walk or bikeride away. Turn north on Andalusia Ave, less than one mile east of Seaside.

Funny you mention that, we have rented in there several years running. About five years ago we rented in there and the typical house was around$500K. They seemed to go up about 100K/year, last summer a few were for sale, all +/- 900K or so. I like the fact you can bike to Seaside.

[Smiling JOe]

Don't disagree with the community benefits, but this jacks the prices up to levels that force out most regular folks. I seriously doubt the majority of homeowners that currently are in SoWal could afford the beach life if it cost $400/sf to build a basic Fla cottage and the lot prices are doubled or tripled. A little more attention paid to intelligent growth in SoWal would be nice, but hopefully not overreglated, CA style.

I don't know your definition of "regular folks," but the people whom I place in that category were priced out of this area two years ago.

[Donna]

I agree with SJ. At some point, affordable housing is no longer "for sale" housing. South Walton reached that point two years back. Service jobs and other lower-paying jobs will require "for rent" properties where income levels can be qualified and rents controlled in association with the area income levels. Until fairly recently, there was affordable housing in the north County but that came to a halt with the price increases of last year. County Tax Assessor tells us that the County-wide property values were up some 70%.

Dormitory living may seem unattractive to some, but with the right amenities and pricing, it can be far more attractive than driving an hour or more each way to a job that doesn't pay that much to begin with. We have very nice "dorms" for our seasonable farm workers, who seem to like the convenience and the comaraderie and who do not miss the long drives on traffic-filled two-lane highways. They have clean showers/bathrooms, good and plentiful meals, and bigscreen televisions. In fact, one well known winery hired a "California cuisine" chef for their dorms, only to lose almost the entire workforce to another winery, who hired a cook to prepare traditional Mexican items! Some wineries hire almost the entire village from Mexico during picking season and they come back year after year. Medical care is offered via a charitable foundation called "Clinic Ole," one of the best supported charities in our Valley. There is a way to do this, but it takes a willingness to recognize that businesses are not a gift to the area. Rather, the gift is to them.

FYI, these dorms do not house just Hispanic seasonal workers. We also have a lot of kids who are interested in viticulture and winemaking, who works the harvest as part of their college programs. They can't afford housing, either and often don't have medical care but for Clinic Ole.

[Smiling JOe]

I agree with SJ. At some point, affordable housing is no longer "for sale" housing. South Walton reached that point two years back. Service jobs and other lower-paying jobs will require "for rent" properties where income levels can be qualified and rents controlled in association with the area income levels. Until fairly recently, there was affordable housing in the north County but that came to a halt with the price increases of last year. County Tax Assessor tells us that the County-wide property values were up some 70%.

Dormitory living may seem unattractive to some, but with the right amenities and pricing, it can be far more attractive than driving an hour or more each way to a job that doesn't pay that much to begin with. We have very nice "dorms" for our seasonable farm workers, who seem to like the convenience and the comaraderie and who do not miss the long drives on traffic-filled two-lane highways. They have clean showers/bathrooms, good and plentiful meals, and bigscreen televisions. In fact, one well known winery hired a "California cuisine" chef for their dorms, only to lose almost the entire workforce to another winery, who hired a cook to prepare traditional Mexican items! Some wineries hire almost the entire village from Mexico during picking season and they come back year after year. Medical care is offered via a charitable foundation called "Clinic Ole," one of the best supported charities in our Valley. There is a way to do this, but it takes a willingness to recognize that businesses are not a gift to the area. Rather, the gift is to them.

FYI, these dorms do not house just Hispanic seasonal workers. We also have a lot of kids who are interested in viticulture and winemaking, who works the harvest as part of their college programs. They can't afford housing, either and often don't have medical care but for Clinic Ole.California is not the only place with dorm type housing for employees. In several Parks in the US, the National Park Service houses its seasonal employees in these dorms. Also, I know that the Nantucket Golf Club has a dorm for most of its employees, and they also provide a few houses for the managers. A year ago, I suggested that we need dorm type of facilities, but the developers showed no interest. They want no money on the table at the end of the day. They are quick to get in, and want to take their profits out just as quickly, so that they are not the last one standing, when the music stops.

[dbuck]

They are quick to get in, and want to take their profits out just as quickly, so that they are not the last one standing, when the music stops.

Now, now, SJ, you are beginning to sound like Shelly. :confused:

[John]

The truth is not always pretty.

[Smiling JOe]

Now, now, SJ, you are beginning to sound like Shelly. :confused:I have had many more than one developer tell me that in not so many words. Actually, one did use those words. That time to which they were referring is now. Slow sales and many homes sitting still. However, that has not stopped their building, but they are not buying much until they move more properties first.

[Waterman]

:rolling: One thing I know foe sho, Mr, Smiling Joe has a home in CA, ANYTIME he decides to come here!

[Jellyfish]

This is a challenge in almost any resort/high end community (Aspen, Palm Beach, Park City, etc). I thought if you went up 331 toward DeFuniak and I-10 the housing was pretty affordable, no? Also, over the bridge West of Destin towards FWB is a little cheaper as well.

Napa valley is beautiful; I'd live in a tent to work there.... :razz:
Georgia still won't allow wine shipments back home when we visit :idontno:

[Donna]

Over the past year, housing and land in DeFuniak Springs and outlying areas has skyrocketed in price. I am not sure why this is. Two years ago, you could have one of those large, beautiful antebellum homes right on Lake DeFuniak for about $200K. Recently, a modern nice home on the lake sold almost immediately for well over $600K. Developers have also been speculating larger acreage for new large-scale development since the architect couple from Miami announced they are designing that community between DeFuniak and Freeport.

Yes, some of the ski towns in Colorado also offer very nice dormitory living that is seasonal. And tents are sometimes used, too. We have yurts that are used for seasonal labor and several luxury resorts along the coast where well-furnished yurts are the "rooms." Go figure.

As for shipping wine, the industry just won a major lawsuit before the Supreme Court that challenged states forbidding the direct shipment of wine from wineries to its out-of-state customers. When you come here, go to one of our mailing or shipping centers and purchase the $10 styrofoam carton that you can check as a piece of baggage on the airlines. We ship a case of wine every time we fly down to Florida and have not had a broken or leaky bottle yet. The airlines security often opens the case, but we haven't had any delayed baggage yet, either. Life's too short to drink bad wine. :razz:

[Smiling JOe]

Donna is correct. The prices of entry level homes in Defuniak Springs is out of reach for the $10 per hour laborer. Just as Crestview prices jumped, so have those in Defuniak. I know of a nice home on Lake Defuniak which just lowered the price to a bit less than one million. Interested? Of Course it is not entry level.

On another note, the wine/liquor distributors in GA, and some other states, grease the state politicians so much that they are about the only monopolies remaining. If you want to buy Skyy Vodka, you will have to go through Empire. If you want Ketel One, you have to go through National. etc, etc. Sure, you may buy your booze or wine at a store, but the stores get their products from a distributor, who is the registered agent for the region, or the entire state in most cases.

[TooFarTampa]

I have had many more than one developer tell me that in not so many words. Actually, one did use those words. That time to which they were referring is now. Slow sales and many homes sitting still. However, that has not stopped their building, but they are not buying much until they move more properties first.

You mean, people talk about SHELLY in real life? And how do you pronounce it if it's all in caps? Do you shout it? :idontno: :floor:

Not picking on you (too much), SHELLY ... just wondering, how many locals lurk here without posting? Must be a lot.

P.S. regarding construction costs: Are they really that low on average? I thought if we were going to have to build a custom home on our Seagrove lot, which we won't be doing anytime soon, we could figure $200-225 a square foot with the current market. I also thought Watercolor, Rosemary, etc, were closer to $250 and up. As always it varies with builder, architect, and how much high end stuff you want in the house.

[Smiling JOe]

You mean, people talk about SHELLY in real life? And how do you pronounce it if it's all in caps? Do you shout it? :idontno: :floor:

Not picking on you (too much), SHELLY ... just wondering, how many locals lurk here without posting? Must be a lot.

P.S. regarding construction costs: Are they really that low on average? I thought if we were going to have to build a custom home on our Seagrove lot, which we won't be doing anytime soon, we could figure $200-225 a square foot with the current market. I also thought Watercolor, Rosemary, etc, were closer to $250 and up. As always it varies with builder, architect, and how much high end stuff you want in the house.The homes in WaterColor tend to be high end as opposed to the medium grade prices that I posted. When you start to add tongue and grove wood ceilings and add the $50K-$100K architectural fees it adds up. Plus, many builders will charge more to build in communities like WaterColor, where they are required to do more things, like cleaning up the property on a daily basis, replacing the entire section of road if the edge gets broken off by the construction vehicles, etc. You can easily get above $200 per sf when you are talking about building in WC.

[SHELLY]

Now, now, SJ, you are beginning to sound like Shelly. :confused:

Don't look now SJ...but I think you just got insulted :eek:

[SHELLY]

I imagine I'm one of few who finds it disturbing that vast areas of Florida (not just small "vacation" areas) are pricing out entire economic classes of our citizens--only to be replaced by third-world temporary workers. :confused:

[beachmouse]

Costs seem low, but you get what you pay for. There are a lot of million dollar homes here that do a good job of complying with hurricane code, but have absolutely terrible fit & finish- really bad paint jobs, cheapest possible interior doors and wire racks in closets instead of wood shelving, plastic trim, $20 lighting fixtures. We've hit Parade of Homes every year, and after seeing the impressively bad patch job on a 2x2 foot hole in the wall on a big Sandestin home, and the new house on Choctaw Bay in FWB where you could feel the living room floor was out of plumb just by walking across it, model homes with broken lighting fixtures, all kinds of obvious flaws like that, I've got a pretty short list of builders I'd trust down here.

Over all, I think Adams has slightly better build quality than a lot of the alleged custom luxury builders here. But it seems like all you've got to do is slap some granite counter tops in the kitchen, use a floor plan with a trophy bath, and have whatever flooring and paint color that's in fashion, and people pay insane prices for something where the quality isn't that great.

Another thing that drives prices up in Watercolor is that they've got much higher standards for fit & finish than other developments do- real solid core wood interior doors instead of plastic ones, better lighting fixtures, construction standards that require skilled craftsmen instead of day laborers, etc.

As for the temporary workers, anyone else notice that it seems like a lot more of the Eastern Europeans stayed the winter to work here instead of going back home? I'm wondering if we're starting to see something of a shift from the usual pattern of Bulgarian, Russian, and Polish college students who spent a couple summers in Florida to work on English skills and save up money for a down payment for an apartment back home when they graduated from college.

[Camp Creek Kid]

Keep in mind that there is a lot of fluctuation in construction prices. Obviously materials fluctuate with the world market prices. The materials used make a huge difference. All concrete construction ala Alys Beach is going to be as much as $300 a sqaure foot while a wood frame house with hardie plank siding could be as low as $150 a square foot. Rosemary Beach is expensive because the required wood windows, doors, siding, but those materials aren't meant for this climiate and require extensive up keep.

The biggest fluctuation is with contractors' fees. Many contractors have enjoyed building spec houses, but it has become difficult to sell any house so spec houses are risky. There will probably be many contractors who run out of their own projects to build and who will be looking for custom homes to do. The contractors' fee on a cost-plus contract is SoWal can be as much as 25% because there has been such a demand for builders. A normal contractors' fee (in say Chattanooga) is 8-12%. As work for contractors slows, I think many will be willing to negotiate lower contractors' fees. And if the contract isn't cost-plus, a contractor who needs the work will reflect that in his/her bid.

[TooFarTampa]

Costs seem low, but you get what you pay for. There are a lot of million dollar homes here that do a good job of complying with hurricane code, but have absolutely terrible fit & finish- really bad paint jobs, cheapest possible interior doors and wire racks in closets instead of wood shelving, plastic trim, $20 lighting fixtures. We've hit Parade of Homes every year, and after seeing the impressively bad patch job on a 2x2 foot hole in the wall on a big Sandestin home, and the new house on Choctaw Bay in FWB where you could feel the living room floor was out of plumb just by walking across it, model homes with broken lighting fixtures, all kinds of obvious flaws like that, I've got a pretty short list of builders I'd trust down here.



That applies almost anywhere, but I would imagine especially in SoWal. When the time comes for us to build, we will get on a contractor's waiting list if necessary, and I'll be doing a lot of flying up (if it is as easy as I hope it will be) to check on things. I'm sure there is a big difference between construction costs for crappy spec homes -- not to be confused with crappy Grayton sunsets -- and custom, quality built homes. Building an excellent home takes a lot of money and a lot more work on the owners' part (oversight, research). Yes, you can buy an already built new home or just write a check and let an available builder do his or her thing, but you are taking a big risk that way IMO. I do think that this is one of the ways RB, WC, WS etc can justify their higher pricing, because the quality seems to be better monitored throughout the construction and builders are used to higher expectations.

[SHELLY]

I see building costs and times only going up, up, up...especially when the "real" money starts to flow for Katrina rebuilding; then most of the skilled (and unskilled) labor and materials will be sucked to the West. (And that's considering NO hurricane landfalls this coming season.)

[SHELLY]

As for the temporary workers, anyone else notice that it seems like a lot more of the Eastern Europeans stayed the winter to work here instead of going back home? I'm wondering if we're starting to see something of a shift from the usual pattern of Bulgarian, Russian, and Polish college students who spent a couple summers in Florida to work on English skills and save up money for a down payment for an apartment back home when they graduated from college.

Mouse: Here's some insight on how the "Foreign Student Labor Trade" works:Foreign Student Labor (http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060115/BUSINESS/601150318/1003)

The Story Begins: "Two months ago, Izabel Mendonça lived in a five-bedroom, nine-bathroom house in the capital of Brazil, Brasília, with a population of more than 2 million. Now, she makes sandwiches for a living at a Subway restaurant in Milton. Mendonça, 19, is one of dozens of Brazilians who came to the Pensacola Bay Area as part of a work-and-travel program designed to help businesses tackle gaps in the local labor market.
What began more than a year ago as a short-term solution for food-service and hospitality employers has turned into a trend that is expected to continue as businesses struggle to fill low-wage jobs."

As I see it, it leaves lots of room for profiteering and abuse. :confused:

[beachmouse]

There are seasonal resorts in the Midwest and Northeast where the foreign students have been coming to work for 'The Season' for decades now, and the agreement seems to work well for both sides. The company in the article seems reputable, if a bit expensive.

And it's a two way street. There are a number of companies that will work with American college students to place them in the same kinds of jobs for a season in Australia, England, Costa Rica, Spain, Italy, etc.

IMO, the big problem with them in this area is that unless you're in Pensacola proper, there is no public transportation. (and when my pools association hires foreign lifeguards for summer work, they do provide them with cruiser bikes so they can get around town easier)

[SHELLY]

There are a number of companies that will work with American college students to place them in the same kinds of jobs for a season in Australia, England, Costa Rica, Spain, Italy, etc.

Somehow, when I envisioned what a globalized economy meant for upcoming generations, it didn't include having our future leaders learning how to say "Do you want fries with that" in 4 different languages. Then again, it will probably come in handy as the US continues to move to a service-based economy that relies heavily on low-paid migrant labor.

[Smiling JOe]

Don't look now SJ...but I think you just got insulted :eek:It is okay, SHELLY. I agree with you on some things, but I think you like to beat a dead horse a bit too much sometimes.

[Santiago]

I imagine I'm one of few who finds it disturbing that vast areas of Florida (not just small "vacation" areas) are pricing out entire economic classes of our citizens--only to be replaced by third-world temporary workers. :confused:
I can't speak for vast areas of Florida but I for one am glad to have the "third world" workers doing some of our company's jobs. They seem to appreciate the opportunity and their productivity in many cases exceeds that of what we were accustomed to.

[SHELLY]

I for one am glad to have the "third world" workers doing some of our company's jobs. They seem to appreciate the opportunity and their productivity in many cases exceeds that of what we were accustomed to.

I agree...nothing's better than a good "bottom line." :clap_1:

[beachmouse]

Summer unemployment here is currently running something like 2-3%, which is generally considered to be full enployment by any economic measure I've ever seen. And there are far more summer service jobs these days that locals to work them. The KenTacoHut over by Silver Sands was advertising $10/hour for fast food jobs last summer, which isn't bad for asking "Do you want Nachos Bell Grande with that?" and still didn't seem to have many takers because the presentable, somewhat sober local high school and college age workers can do better than that.

[SHELLY]

The KenTacoHut over by Silver Sands was advertising $10/hour for fast food jobs last summer, which isn't bad for asking "Do you want Nachos Bell Grande with that?" and still didn't seem to have many takers because the presentable, somewhat sober local high school and college age workers can do better than that.

You're absolutely right!...kids that live around here don't need to work--their parents provide for their every want (buy their cars, pay their cell phone bills and give them credit cards).

The folks who used to take these types of jobs can't afford a $300,000 condo in the Silver Sands area or the $2.40 gal gas and 1+ hour drive each way to work. Luckily, there are more than enough McJobs in every nook- and-cranny of the panhandle so they don't have to travel to Destin/SoWal (albeit they can't make enough to support a decent lifestyle).

Economically speaking, this area of the panhandle is a train wreck waiting to happen--but it makes for an incredibly fascinating study. I suspect that as this real estate boom continues to subside, it will free up more and more folks who are working in that sector to take on these $10 p/h jobs (providing they stashed away enough cash during the boom years to pay for healthcare, taxes and insurance and haven't used I/O or Option ARMs to purchase their homes).

[Paula]

Keep in mind that not all wealthy parents pay for all their kids' needs. Wise ones require their kids to work, learn how to earn/save/invest money, give back to the community, etc. Spoiled kids, good and bad kids, come from all economic levels -- Just like adults. There are givers and takers, those who make the world a better place or a worse place, at every income level.

There's a book called "Talented Teenagers: The Roots of Success and Failure (Cambridge Studies in Social & Emotional Development)" that would probably confirm or disconfirm the view that all wealthy parents spoil their kids. I have the book though I haven't read it yet. Will let you know what I learn when I do.

[TooFarTampa]

You're absolutely right!...kids that live around here don't need to work--their parents provide for their every want (buy their cars, pay their cell phone bills and give them credit cards).

Paula's right, SHELLY -- and she should know, as a university professor she observes and interacts with all kinds of kids. Once again you are painting with an unfairly broad brush. You seem to do that a lot, which is why so many of the fair-minded people here end up disagreeing with you.

[Paula]

Yup, I study "what predicts success" (not only defined by salary and promotions but by adding value at work, happiness, well-being, and contribution to community/family as well). I certainly don't know everything about it (by far), but I do try to stay on top of the research and stay away from sweeping statements unless they're supported by research (or unless I'm stating my personal opinion at sunset on the beach with a margarita). Without research, such statements become stereotypes and stereotypes usually don't add much value and can be divisive.

Personally, from the classes I teach at the Business School (it's a state, not private, business school), I haven't noticed any difference in student achievement or goodwill based on class, wealth, etc.

Kurt's going to tell us to take this to another thread soon...

[Uncle Timmy]

You mean, people talk about SHELLY in real life? And how do you pronounce it if it's all in caps? Do you shout it? :idontno: :floor:

Not picking on you (too much), SHELLY ... just wondering, how many locals lurk here without posting? Must be a lot.

P.S. regarding construction costs: Are they really that low on average? I thought if we were going to have to build a custom home on our Seagrove lot, which we won't be doing anytime soon, we could figure $200-225 a square foot with the current market. I also thought Watercolor, Rosemary, etc, were closer to $250 and up. As always it varies with builder, architect, and how much high end stuff you want in the house.

Too Far, I think that your numbers are close to the actual building cost at this time. I am involved in local residential housing and keep a close eye on the numbers.

Along 30-A expect about $200-225/sf. The cost to build in Watercolor, is about $250/sf for the raw builder's costs -not including the builder's fee. (Closer to $300/sf when this is included).

Keep in mind that there are a few factors pushing costs up right now. Some of them are nationwide factors such as material costs (China is sucking up a lot of the world's steel and concrete, pushing prices up), others are local.

Local Issues:

Local Subcontractors are driving up the costs substantially. They have a captive market in the planned communities such as Watercolor, that have build-out clauses. They know that those home owners have a limited time to get their homes built and are not in a position to argue over pricing. And, because they have their hands full doing these homes it's a simple matter of supply and demand pushing up prices even for those outside of these communities.

Location -I'm afraid that just being in south Walton as opposed to north Walton will result in higher prices. Some of this can be attributed to tighter building codes here, we are required to meet a higher wind load etc. As a specific example, framing costs are about 3 times as high in south Walton as opposed to Freeport.

Affordable Housing - Our building costs are 2.5 times higher than for areas only a few hours away. In a 'normal' scenario, we would be drawing in contractors from these surrounding areas attracted by the higher profit margins, but as we have no affordable housing in the area, this isn't happening. Hence, no price competition.

Although it would be difficult to pin an actual percentage of construction cost value on it, another important factor is the higher level of detailing, appliances, etc. which have now become standard in south Walton homes. A few years ago, no one considered granite countertops and high end stainless steel appliances as the 'norm' for housing construction. If you could settle for laminate countertops and GE appliances etc. you can significantly reduce the overall building cost.

I recently reviewed a bid for a concrete block house in Seagrove Beach that came in at around $275/sf. The house next door, also concrete block built 5 years ago cost $106/sf.

If construction in Watercolor, and other communities like it, slows down it could help moderate prices.

If we could address the affordable housing issue and attract more labor to the area, this will moderate prices.

[SHELLY]

Yup, I study "what predicts success" (not only defined by salary and promotions but by adding value at work, happiness, well-being, and contribution to community/family as well). I certainly don't know everything about it (by far), but I do try to stay on top of the research and stay away from sweeping statements unless they're supported by research (or unless I'm stating my personal opinion at sunset on the beach with a margarita).

Paula, I agree that all wealthy families don't spoil their children, but they are less likely to encourage their children (spoiled or not) to go out and work in food service or retail (which are the overwhelming majority of jobs available in the Destin/SoWal area).

I'm really interested to hear your personal opinion of the future of the Destin and South Walton economic/employment situation and your view of the area's increasing reliance on the use of inexpensive temporary migrant labor for its workforce.

In my opinion and observation, the rush to profit in real estate has upset the healthy economic balance of the Florida panhandle.

[Paula]

I really don't know what kind of jobs the wealthy want for their kids to start out with. I'm sure some sociologist(s) has done some research on that. It probably depends on what level of wealthy we're talking about. If it's the wealthy who can afford a nice house, even beach front, on 30A, I think it could go either way. The upper middle class/middle class could certainly want their children to start off waitering or waitressing, clerking, construction, office work, working for mom or dad or aunt or uncle, etc. Now there's Paris Hilton wealthy and that may be different. I just don't know (we'd have to ask some sociologist and maybe you or I will get around to it). In our neighborhood and school and day care we have many different income levels. Frankly, I see all of these kids waitressing/waitering/etc. together at some point -- maybe even SoWal and they'd be great. If anything, maybe SoWal will be a place for rich people to give their kids experience working summers.

As for the market, I'm in it for the long-term and I believe it will be very good for the middle-term and long-term. I compare it to a place like Waikiki that was took a hit about 8 years ago (I have a friend who bought a condo there a while ago) and is very expensive now. I think some people will lose money if they need to move their properties quickly, others will break even, and others will make some money (but not as much as they could have made a few years ago if they want to flip quickly). I think there was some irrational exuberance for a while. Personally, we bought our cottages to enjoy them and make memories and ideally pass them on to the kids, so I don't worry about the market. We have not been disappointed and, in fact, they've brought us more joy than we could have imagined. And I think there are still many people who want to buy property along the coast for those reasons so I'm not afraid of the market in SoWal crashing.

Would I buy right now? If I had the money and could hold onto the property for a while and if I didn't have to stretch too much to buy (and I wasn't betting my retirement income on it) -- absolutely. Are there other beautiful places to buy property? I'm sure there are. But we stopped looking once we found SoWal. Will the area change a lot? I'm sure. But I think it will be nicer than Waikiki and Siesta Key and a lot of other places that grew so fast and didn't have 40% of the area reserved for the natural environment.

[Donna]

Just when you think the day is darkest, a break in the clouds. Recent sale in Grayton Beach of a house listed for $2.2M and sold for list price. Less the estimated land basis of some $1.5M, this translates into a sq. ft. enclosed building price of just under $200 per sq. ft. I also understand from two local realtors that sales activity has picked up over the past several weeks. :clap_1:

[Smiling JOe]

Donna, sales are slightly up lately, but I don't know that the market has turned just yet. Many of the listings going into pending lately are from Aerial Dunes. The listings were taken two years ago, and the reservations were taken around 1.5 years ago, but the listing agent is just now entering them. They do this so that they can keep both sides of the commission. (Greed). Those greedy agents will soon be begging other agents to show their property. We are already seeing this in Cypress Dunes, where the Broker was not willing to pay agents from other brokers any commission for bringing them a buyer. Now those people who need to sell in there, are hurting because most agents never familiarized themselves with the project which would not pay the agent for his or her work. What goes around, comes around.

[beachmouse]

The genuinely wealthy people I've known (eight figure net worth on up) have always been very firm on the idea that even if they intended to shower wealth on their kids at some point in life, they still wanted the kids to go through a period of time when they had to make it on their own so they'd learn the value of a dollar and how not to squander it needlessly.

When I was growing up, I babysat for one of the heirs to a major Midwestern grocery chain. Yes, that branch of the Thrifty Acres family was indeed too cheap to spring for cable. (though they paid their sitters well) And all the kids were expected to go out and work on their own for a couple years in order to learn how to stand or fall on their own rather than going straight to work for Dad.

[SHELLY]

In our neighborhood and school and day care we have many different income levels. Frankly, I see all of these kids waitressing/waitering/etc. together at some point -- maybe even SoWal and they'd be great. If anything, maybe SoWal will be a place for rich people to give their kids experience working summers.

(Warning: Below is an attempt at a joke)

Good idea...maybe we can convince our visitors who bring their teens to hire them out to our fast food places during their 2 week vacation in SoWal--talk about a win-win-win situation! :D

First we'll have to figure out how to "unplug" all the kids (rich, middle-class and poor) from their cell phones and iPods so they'll be able to able to hear the deep-fat fryer beeper going off. :blink:

[Paula]

Even if they unplug their IPods they may not be able to hear the deep fryer because they may have hearing loss from using the Ipods over time anyway... :cool:

[Miss Kitty]

(Warning: Below is an attempt at a joke)

Good idea...maybe we can convince our visitors who bring their teens to hire them out to our fast food places during their 2 week vacation in SoWal--talk about a win-win-win situation! :D

First we'll have to figure out how to "unplug" all the kids (rich, middle-class and poor) from their cell phones and iPods so they'll be able to able to hear the deep-fat fryer beeper going off. :blink:

:clap_1:

[Jellyfish]

So it would appear after all this spirited discussion, I should budget around
$225-250 for an average cottage. I wonder if building in the winter improves the pricing?

[SHELLY]

So it would appear after all this spirited discussion, I should budget around
$225-250 for an average cottage. I wonder if building in the winter improves the pricing?

Judging from what I've been reading, trying to determine future building costs will be impossible at best. Once they start rebuilding all the Katrina damage (both residential & commercial) in MS & LA the demand for building materials and labor will drive those costs up to "who knows where."

Even pre-sale condo guys are considering adding language to contracts that leave them lots of wiggle-room to jack up the "agreed upon" price as building costs mount (from here on out ya better get a lawyer to read those contacts carefully).

[SHELLY]

Even if they unplug their IPods they may not be able to hear the deep fryer because they may have hearing loss from using the Ipods over time anyway... :cool:

That's exactly why I placed a sizable sum into the Hearing-Aid Futures market.

[Uncle Timmy]

So it would appear after all this spirited discussion, I should budget around
$225-250 for an average cottage. I wonder if building in the winter improves the pricing?

I haven't noticed any varaiation in pricing during the winter.

Two possible solutions to the current construction costs:

Wait- The real estate feeding frenzy of the past few years is fueling the current construction boom as lot owners who bought in communities with build out times are scrambling to complete their homes. With the slow down in sales we MAY see a slow down in construction (and corresponding prices) within a few years.

Consider some alternative building systems- I am constantly evaluating new building systems with regards both to overall performance (in our harsh coastal climate) and possible cost savings. One system that I am looking at closely is Tridipanel.

Their website is www.tridipanel.com

I contacted them a few months back and they have built one home here in our area (with Wave Construction).

Please note that I am still evaluating the product and don't yet have any information regarding actual pricing, but I am considering using it when I build a planned addition to my own home. I like the fact that it is a panelized system (which is inherently labor saving) and is concrete. It looks like a homeowner might even be able to put the panels by themselves.

If anyone is interested in looking into it further, contact me I would like to be involved.

[Camp Creek Kid]

Even pre-sale condo guys are considering adding language to contracts that leave them lots of wiggle-room to jack up the "agreed upon" price as building costs mount (from here on out ya better get a lawyer to read those contacts carefully).

Shelly, that is nothing new. Pre-sales are reservations, but the final price isn't set until the reservation goes in to hard contract. It has always been that way.

[SHELLY]

Shelly, that is nothing new. Pre-sales are reservations, but the final price isn't set until the reservation goes in to hard contract. It has always been that way.

What about my Trump condo in Tampa?

Trumped-up Charge (http://www.tampatrib.com/MGBOYEZJVBE.html)

Others are dragging their feet going to contract:

Yeah, but What's It Gonna Cost??? (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/local/sfl-zbuilders13jan13,0,7463363.story?track=mostemailed link)

[Camp Creek Kid]

What about my Trump condo in Tampa?

Trumped-up Charge (http://www.tampatrib.com/MGBOYEZJVBE.html)

Others are dragging their feet going to contract:

Yeah, but What's It Gonna Cost??? (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/local/sfl-zbuilders13jan13,0,7463363.story?track=mostemailed link)


As I said, it is not uncommon for the actual contract price to be higher than the reservation price. Most condos are pre-sold years before they are actually built and actual cost isn't determined until the units go in to hard contract. Any reservation agreement will specifiy that the reservation price isn't necessarily the the final price.

[goofer44]

I have been trying to figure out the true cost and the DEFINITION of construction cost per sq foot. How do you determine it? Do you include the cost of the lot ? Is it just the living area under air? Or does it include the area for the porches, decks and other hardscape? If it is the entire square footage including decks porches and carriage house etc, what would be a fair per sq ft cost if the house is a WS or WC type home with the typical upgrades? Any opinion or comment would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Pirate]

Take whatever it costs to build your house minus the lot. Divide that by square footage. That is construction cost per square foot. It includes all costs to build, period. I might also recommend multiplying any figure you had for cost at the beginning of this year by thirty percent. The costs of all construction materials have really gone out of control and now the subs have started raising prices.

[2bohemians]

Hey Jellyfish,
Couldn't agree with you more about Napa Valley - that is definitely "god's country". We move here from Los Angeles and there are certainly positives and negatives. Overall, we miss the diverse landscape of California and being able to be somewhere different in an hours drive but we absolutely love the clean beaches and easy parking / traffic issues. We were wondering if you might be interested in 2 lots for sale in the Gulf View Heights neighborhood - the subdivision that is basically across from Snapperheads & Goatfeathers. These 2 lots are priced at $264,400 each or a discount of 5% if you take both. The lots have deeded beach access and you can easily jump on your bike and hit the bike path or the trails located in the back of our neighborhood called the Long Leaf Pine Trailway. If you would like more information, send us an email and we will tell you more. Have a great day!

[Uncle Timmy]

I have been trying to figure out the true cost and the DEFINITION of construction cost per sq foot. How do you determine it? Do you include the cost of the lot ? Is it just the living area under air? Or does it include the area for the porches, decks and other hardscape? If it is the entire square footage including decks porches and carriage house etc, what would be a fair per sq ft cost if the house is a WS or WC type home with the typical upgrades? Any opinion or comment would be appreciated. Thank you.

Goofer,

The per/sf numbers should be multiplied by the amount of heated & cooled space in your house. Different areas within the house cost more per sf to build, like kitchens, and baths; and some areas cost less per sf, like living rooms.

The overall cost/sf number is a way to average out all these variables so you can get a rough idea of how much the construction cost will be.

The per/sf takes into consideration an average amount of exterior spaces like porches, garages etc. so simply multiply your heated & cooled space by these numbers and that should include the cost to build your decks/garage etc.

The construction cost does not include the price of the land.

Hope that answers your question.

[Julie Dorney]

I don't know much about construction costs but can talk with you about different communities in Sowal. We own in Blue Mountain which is a little less congested than Seaside- However, we also own in the Wild Heron community, which is just east of of 30-A on the outskirts of West Panama City Beach. It is a beauitful private community on Lake Powell, a coastal dune lake with a private beach club and shuttle from the club. It is definitely upscale but the prices have come down significantly for lots (with no build out time) with the slow market. It has a Greg Norman golf course, pool, firepit, boatdock, workout facility, club house and shuttle to the beach with private beach club. The homes are a coastal craftsman architecture. Anyway, if you are interested we own a lot (and could sell) or there are others we know who have invested there and motivated to sell. Clearly, one of the best kept secrets just east of 30-A! Julie

[John R]

I don't know much about construction costs but can talk with you about different communities in Sowal... Anyway, if you are interested we own a lot (and could sell) or there are others we know who have invested there and motivated to sell. Clearly, one of the best kept secrets just east of 30-A! Julie...

i missed where any of the above is relevant to cost per square foot. wouldn't it have been more effective to start a new thread listing your lot for sale?

goofer, if you're trying to get an estimate, and build in some contingency, for WC or WS, i'd figure 225-250/sq ft would be a good starting point.

[SHELLY]

i missed where any of the above is relevant to cost per square foot. wouldn't it have been more effective to start a new thread listing your lot for sale?


John,
You've gotta understand that things are a little tight in the RE sector. A whiff of anyone remotely interested in buying, building, or thinking about buying/building provides a crack in the doorway large enough to shove a foot into.

[Uncle Timmy]

[A] possible solution to the current construction costs:

Wait- The real estate feeding frenzy of the past few years is fueling the current construction boom as lot owners who bought in communities with build out times are scrambling to complete their homes. With the slow down in sales we MAY see a slow down in construction (and corresponding prices) within a few years.



Well, I've never quoted myself before but I wanted to follow up on that comment from last January.

It indeed looks like some of the prices for construction are coming down.

As anticipated, the subcontractors are getting a little bit hungry for the first time in several years, and are starting to bid competatively. I am hearing some numbers for framing, for example, down to 60% of what they were a year ago. Material costs are still up, and will probably remain so for a while, but at least we are begining to see labor costs come down.

It will be a while before I can give a more definative "overall" idea of where construction costs are going.

[InletBchDweller]

Well, I've never quoted myself before but I wanted to follow up on that comment from last January.

It indeed looks like some of the prices for construction are coming down.

As anticipated, the subcontractors are getting a little bit hungry for the first time in several years, and are starting to bid competatively. I am hearing some numbers for framing, for example, down to 60% of what they were a year ago. Material costs are still up, and will probably remain so for a while, but at least we are begining to see labor costs come down.

It will be a while before I can give a more definative "overall" idea of where construction costs are going.

I agree, Mr. IBD is in construction and he has told me that subs are calling him :blink: wanting to know if they are starting a new house soon. They are needing work....I wish I was in the position to start building now b/c I am sure that there is some good labor for cheaP.. Subs have also "made a killing" by charging outrageous prices for their work, and many times it is shabby work.

[Uncle Timmy]

Got a call today from a big name builder in the area who is looking for work. This is the first time I have ever had these folks actively seeking new projects.

And I continue to get reports from other builders that subs are lowering their bids.

Good news for anyone looking to start a new home.

[dsilvar]

I'd like them a little hungrier. $150 per sqft is going to be the norm pretty soon.

[Uncle Timmy]

I'd like them a little hungrier. $150 per sqft is going to be the norm pretty soon.

I will keep everybody advised as to the new pricing range when the complete numbers start to come in.....however this will take some time -it will be a few months to get the final construction costs on some ongoing projects.

I will be surprised if the numbers get down to $150/sf -that would be great though! Then Uncle Timmy can afford to start my long planned house addition!!!!

[Franny]

I'd like them a little hungrier. $150 per sqft is going to be the norm pretty soon.
I believe $150 is completely unrealistic. Builders do not come up with these prices off the top of their head....they have to buy the material, pay for the subs, who by the way are not all coming down on their price, especially the competent, professionals. These subs have enough work for the next two years!! And remember you get what you pay for!

[Indigo Jill]

Although I am not at all involved in the buidling industry - and hope building costs come down so I can build the guest cottage I've wanted for the last 2 years - I have to say my logic runs along the lines of what Franny is saying here. Look at the cost of everything else around us in South Walton - food, energy, entertainment ... even my hairdresser just raised her price to $45 a cut from $30 :shock:.

I'm trying to open a small business and it became very clear during my feasibilty study and in talking with other business owners that business ownership here is an incredible challenge. The operational costs are on par with a major metropolitan city (read NYC and San Fran, not Memphis or St. Louis) but we lack the population (your customers and qualiifed employees) to justify the cost(s). Overhead, labor costs, material costs, insurance - I can see why a builder may need to charge the prices they do AND still make enough money to live comfortably.

[Franny]

Although I am not at all involved in the buidling industry - and hope building costs come down so I can build the guest cottage I've wanted for the last 2 years - I have to say my logic runs along the lines of what Franny is saying here. Look at the cost of everything else around us in South Walton - food, energy, entertainment ... even my hairdresser just raised her price to $45 a cut from $30 :shock:.

I'm trying to open a small business and it became very clear during my feasibilty study and in talking with other business owners that business ownership here is an incredible challenge. The operational costs are on par with a major metropolitan city (read NYC and San Fran, not Memphis or St. Louis) but we lack the population (your customers and qualiifed employees) to justify the cost(s). Overhead, labor costs, material costs, insurance - I can see why a builder may need to charge the prices they do AND still make enough money to live comfortably.

Absolutely and I forgot to mention insurance! :eek: Thanks for the reminder IJ.

[Sandcastle]

And remember you get what you pay for!

You might not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for.:biggrin:

[Pirate]

So the materials all go up but the price per square foot comes down. I really didn't realize thats the way it worked. :idontno:

[Uncle Timmy]

So the materials all go up but the price per square foot comes down. I really didn't realize thats the way it worked. :idontno:

The labor component of the equation is what is coming down. Labor costs in south Walton have been highly inflated over the past few years because of the demand. Demand slackened and now labor costs are becoming more competitive.

At one point the labor cost in the south part of the county was 3X the same labor cost north of the bay. Folks were charging what they could get away with and people were willing to pay for it.

Labor cost drops faster than material cost increases = overall construction cost comes down.

[TooFarTampa]

We got the most outrageous quote to paint our 2000 sf house ... more than 15K, twice what we would pay for our 3000 sf house+ garage apartment here in a very nice Tampa neighborhood. I hope this means in 6 months we will have more painters to choose from, and better bids.

[Smiling JOe]

We got the most outrageous quote to paint our 2000 sf house ... more than 15K, twice what we would pay for our 3000 sf house+ garage apartment here in a very nice Tampa neighborhood. I hope this means in 6 months we will have more painters to choose from, and better bids.There are enough house built here that painters will continue to be busy repainting for the rest of their careers.

If your bid came in at only $15K, be thankful. I have friends who paid $30K for the exterior alone on their 2000sf home and the owner of the business sat in his wheelchair in the back yard, supervising (drinking Budweiser all day) and hitting on all the young ladies walking by in bikinis.

[TooFarTampa]

There are enough house built here that painters will continue to be busy repainting for the rest of their careers.

That's an excellent point ... seeing as how it needs to be done every 4-5 years, minimum. I was taking the guy seriously (we have a lot of balconies which need to be hand-painted and there are three stories) but he lost me when I saw him driving the neighborhood in his Hummer. :roll:

[TooFarTampa]

If your bid came in at only $15K, be thankful. I have friends who paid $30K for the exterior alone on their 2000sf home and the owner of the business sat in his wheelchair drinking Budweiser all day, hitting on all the young ladies walking by in bikinis.

:blink: Our partners in the house have a relative in the business. We are considering asking him to do it for his regular rate, putting up the crew in the house AND giving him a free week's vacation on top of it. We expect we will still save significant money.

[SHELLY]

We got the most outrageous quote to paint our 2000 sf house ... more than 15K, twice what we would pay for our 3000 sf house+ garage apartment here in a very nice Tampa neighborhood. I hope this means in 6 months we will have more painters to choose from, and better bids.

By that time the "cheap worker bodies" will have migrated West to the NOLA area to do the painting there. What you'll have left are the "high priced" local workers with enough work to go around who will set the prices--and as they say in the biz--it will be a Seller's Market.

[Uncle Timmy]

By that time the "cheap worker bodies" will have migrated West to the NOLA area to do the painting there. What you'll have left are the "high priced" local workers with enough work to go around who will set the prices--and as they say in the biz--it will be a Seller's Market.

Hmmm, but didn't you also predict $30 hamburgers as the norm by this point a few months ago?

[Pirate]

I had a local crew ( Atlanta ) go stay at my house (1900s.f.) and paint it in 4 days in and out for 8k. I might recommend you try the same with a Tampa crew. 15k is ridiculous and 30k is laughable. I will come paint it myself in my pirate outfit for 20k. :rolling:

[Pirate]

The labor component of the equation is what is coming down. Labor costs in south Walton have been highly inflated over the past few years because of the demand. Demand slackened and now labor costs are becoming more competitive.

At one point the labor cost in the south part of the county was 3X the same labor cost north of the bay. Folks were charging what they could get away with and people were willing to pay for it.

Labor cost drops faster than material cost increases = overall construction cost comes down.

Maybe you haven't been buying material. I have paid 50+percent increase in drywall, 60+ percent increase in concrete products and 25+increase in wood products since the beginning of the year. The subs that use machinery have all added a gas surcharge to their bills and the delivery of products now has a gas surcharge. The subs lowering their rate by 10 percent won't overcome what boils down to corporate greed in this case. In addition, my punch out carpenters all raised their rates by 15 percent because of ??? GAS PRICES. I have no new starts planned or in process for the first time in 12 years. :idontno:

If you start now you would be in pain in my estimation.

[Uncle Timmy]

Maybe you haven't been buying material. I have paid 50+percent increase in drywall, 60+ percent increase in concrete products and 25+increase in wood products since the beginning of the year.

Pirate,

Where are you buying your materials?

A quick call to Couch Concrete has shown the cost of a cubic yard of 3000psi, line pump mix concrete at $111/cubic yard.

I paid $79/cubic yard for the same mix when I poured my house foundations in 1999.

That represents a 40% increase in the cost of concrete in the past 7 years.

[Pirate]

Pirate,

Where are you buying your materials?

A quick call to Couch Concrete has shown the cost of a cubic yard of 3000psi, line pump mix concrete at $111/cubic yard.

I paid $79/cubic yard for the same mix when I poured my house foundations in 1999.

That represents a 40% increase in the cost of concrete in the past 7 years.

I paid $106 yd. for a sidewalk I just poured and paid $72 yd. for the same houses' foundation concrete 6 months earlier. Same company delivered the product. I am guessing I paid in the mid $50 in 1999.

I don't gain anything by sharing this Timmy, it's just a fact. 72 x 1.6 is 115 so I am $4 off and I apologize for that. I do this for a living so I assume it hurts me as much as anyone here.

The last 2 houses I sold at a loss as well FYI, both were more than 20 percent over budget.

[TooFarTampa]

I had a local crew ( Atlanta ) go stay at my house (1900s.f.) and paint it in 4 days in and out for 8k. I might recommend you try the same with a Tampa crew. 15k is ridiculous and 30k is laughable. I will come paint it myself in my pirate outfit for 20k. :rolling:
:lolabove:

[Uncle Timmy]

I paid $106 yd. for a sidewalk I just poured and paid $72 yd. for the same houses' foundation concrete 6 months earlier. Same company delivered the product. I am guessing I paid in the mid $50 in 1999.

I don't gain anything by sharing this Timmy, it's just a fact. 72 x 1.6 is 115 so I am $4 off and I apologize for that. I do this for a living so I assume it hurts me as much as anyone here.

The last 2 houses I sold at a loss as well FYI, both were more than 20 percent over budget.

Pirate,

I didn't mean any offense by questioning your numbers, it just seemed like your earlier post was suggesting a 40% (or so) total increase in building materials cost in the past 6 months. I felt this deserved some clarification.

I think maybe we are talking past each other a bit in terms of timing, I don't doubt your overall costs from the past 6 months, believe me I have seen it first hand. What I am passing along is information, both from builders and owners, in the past few weeeks that are reporting a decrease in bids. As I mentioned earlier; one contractor reported a framing bid 60% of what he was paying a year ago. Time will tell what overall impact this will have on the final construction cost, I will keep everybody advised on my findings.

[Mango]

By that time the "cheap worker bodies" will have migrated West to the NOLA area to do the painting there. What you'll have left are the "high priced" local workers with enough work to go around who will set the prices--and as they say in the biz--it will be a Seller's Market.

Mango says "Cheap bodies" will always stay around especially when there are drinking establishments where they can set their prices. In the biz, it's called "Meat Market". :biggrin:

Which by the way, when I make my way out in October, I will buy you a stiff drink, cause I think you need one bad. :D

[Pirate]

Pirate,

I didn't mean any offense by questioning your numbers, it just seemed like your earlier post was suggesting a 40% (or so) total increase in building materials cost in the past 6 months. I felt this deserved some clarification.

I think maybe we are talking past each other a bit in terms of timing, I don't doubt your overall costs from the past 6 months, believe me I have seen it first hand. What I am passing along is information, both from builders and owners, in the past few weeeks that are reporting a decrease in bids. As I mentioned earlier; one contractor reported a framing bid 60% of what he was paying a year ago. Time will tell what overall impact this will have on the final construction cost, I will keep everybody advised on my findings.

I am not offended. I think you are right about the subs prices coming down. I believe the total building costs are still up around 25 percent today. I am sure the materials will be on the way down in the future as well but how bad will the housing market be by then? Subs are calling me for work for the first time in 4 years.

[spinDrAtl]

There are enough house built here that painters will continue to be busy repainting for the rest of their careers.

If your bid came in at only $15K, be thankful. I have friends who paid $30K for the exterior alone on their 2000sf home and the owner of the business sat in his wheelchair in the back yard, supervising (drinking Budweiser all day) and hitting on all the young ladies walking by in bikinis.

You've got to be kidding. 30k? No offense to your friends, but obviously they have too much money or too little time to shop around. As Pirate said, you could pay someone to drive into the area from Atlanta and paint for 1/4 of that price.

In Atlanta, I had my home's total exterior painted (larger than the one referenced), including deck railing and screen porch with railings, for less than 4k. I could have tossed in 2k and asked that crew to drive to South Walton and they would have done it in a heartbeat.

[Uncle Timmy]

I will keep everybody advised as to the new pricing range when the complete numbers start to come in.....however this will take some time -it will be a few months to get the final construction costs on some ongoing projects.


Ok folks, just a quick update on some numbers.

Here are some hard figures for a Watercolor/Watersound house I have heard recently.

$265/square foot-

Cost is construction cost plus builder’s overhead and represents the total cost to the owner.

All the standard Watercolor/Watersound construction standards –ie. Hardi-plank siding, clad windows, wood detailing, extensive decking, etc.

Stainless steel appliances, granite countertops (yes, I know that is a sore issue on here), garage, fireplace, etc.

The price would be closer to $300/sf with all the bells and whistles –ie., commercial grade kitchen appliances, an outdoor kitchen, custom woodwork, etc.

Please note these numbers are for Watercolor/sound which represents a high level of construction in our area.

I hope this helps.

[Joe]

I can verify your $275 per heated square foot number as we are constructing a Watercolor house for that exact price/sf. The home also includes Pella impact resistent windows and doors, beamed ceilings, icynene insulation, 2 car garage, 1400 sf of porches, Australian Cypress floors, standard metal roof, hardi siding, etc. We signed the contract the first quarter of 2006 and are about 3 months from completion. We are so looking forward to spending lots of time in SOWAL!

PM me if you are interested in information on the builder. We have been extremely satisfied to date and the construction has moved along very quickly.

[JoshMclean]

They are correct on the prices in Watercolor. But, houses of the same quality are built in other areas for less money. Builders make a killing building in Watercolor. One thing you do have to consider are the strict regulations on building in there. I believe on there are certain hours you can work. This of course drags out the building time.

[Franny]

They are correct on the prices in Watercolor. But, houses of the same quality are built in other areas for less money. Builders make a killing building in Watercolor. One thing you do have to consider are the strict regulations on building in there. I believe on there are certain hours you can work. This of course drags out the building time.

Goshy Josh have you built in Watercolor or had a home built for you in Watercolor? "ST JOE" makes a killing in Watercolor, the builders pay out their arse to St Joe when they build a home in WC. Just the amount of landscaping required can reach into the thousands. I could go on and on but my blood pressure needs to come down first!:twisted:

[Beach Runner]

You've got to be kidding. 30k? No offense to your friends, but obviously they have too much money or too little time to shop around. As Pirate said, you could pay someone to drive into the area from Atlanta and paint for 1/4 of that price.

In Atlanta, I had my home's total exterior painted (larger than the one referenced), including deck railing and screen porch with railings, for less than 4k. I could have tossed in 2k and asked that crew to drive to South Walton and they would have done it in a heartbeat.
Painters in our little town are really expensive. Three years ago the cheapest estimate for painting just our interior stairwell and hallways was $3000. :eek: And that didn't require any scaffolding -- just ordinary ladders.

[JoshMclean]

I know several builders in Watercolor and have looked into having a home built. My father is a builder and I handle his payables so I know the costs to build around here. Builders waste a lot of time just to get qualified to build in Watercolor. Do you think that they do this because it is not profitable?:idontno:

[JoshMclean]

Just to let you know, landscaping anywhere reaches into the thousands.

[InletBchDweller]

I know of builders in Watercolor that are just making it even with some sales right now. I am sure in the past big profits were made but that was everywhere........ IMHO
I guess it just matters what subs you use and the price you paid for your lot.

[JoshMclean]

I'm not talking about spec homes. I'm talking about what builders are charging.

[Babyblue]

Landscaping is very high in this area. Just look at the soil. The landscape is changing. I still think about old days..

[Franny]

I know several builders in Watercolor and have looked into having a home built. My father is a builder and I handle his payables so I know the costs to build around here. Builders waste a lot of time just to get qualified to build in Watercolor. Do you think that they do this because it is not profitable?:idontno:

Actually qualifying was never a problem and yes it is profitable or we would not build in Watercolor and the fact that we love the "community" also helps, but the red tape dealing with St Joe is a whole other issue and a very costly venture. That is my point.

[Franny]

Just to let you know, landscaping anywhere reaches into the thousands.

We have built in several other communties in sowal and the price for landscaping never came close to WC.