beach closed?

[truluv]

I understand the double red flags in anticipation of the storm that was not, but why did the TDC put cones up to block the public access to the beach? Yellow tape on the steps blocked my way to the beach (not for long). Did the TDC tape up all stairs to the beach or just public access? I did not see any of the stairs to anyones private homes blocked off, so is the beach access only closed to those of us who use public access, I mean, who has the authority to close THE BEACH?

[NotDeadYet]

It was just the TDC public walkovers that were "Closed." First time I remember them being closed in anticipation of a storm. Previous storms that damaged walkovers resulted in those walkovers being roped off to prevent people from being hurt going down a shaky walkover or one with part of it missing. So I guess this was a sort of preemptive strike. I understand the reasoning I guess but they put up the double reds when the Gulf was still flat as a pancake and really good swimming, some of the best swimming we have had all year. But then I suppose we don't need the fire dept waiting until the wind turned and having to go out in a storm to change the flags. So I have mixed feelings about it. Seems like to me the system could use some tweaking. :idontno:

[30A Skunkape]

The TDC is in a no win situation. Leave the access points wide open and some knuckleheads will go swimming in a tropical storm and die. Put up trivial barriers and people get pissed.

[jack S]

There are other people here other than tourists! The flags are in place. The signs are in place. If you want safety that bad, maybe we should all be under curfew like children! What is interesting is that blocking the access blocks the locals who have a right to experience the beach and its weather, and the surfers who have the right to ride the waves. Left in place are the tourists with money. Keep in mind that surfers and locals have saved more people than lifeguards. Be careful what you wish for! For safety, are you willing to give up freedom? I am not!

[BeachSiO2]

In tropical storm and hurricane situations, the closing of public accesses is based on the decision of by the Director of the Walton County Emergency Operations Center to close the water. It has been this way for years. When the EOC determines the water should be closed, the public accesses are also closed. As Kurt posed in another thread, the EOC made the decision to close the water at 6pm on Friday.

[Smiling JOe]

In tropical storm and hurricane situations, the closing of public accesses is based on the decision of by the Director of the Walton County Emergency Operations Center to close the water. It has been this way for years. When the EOC determines the water should be closed, the public accesses are also closed. As Kurt posed in another thread, the EOC made the decision to close the water at 6pm on Friday.
I couldn't be more confused. So the EOC Director over-rides the LifeGuard crews. I understand that. With South Walton being under a Tropical Storm Warning, I can understand the water being closed, even though it was calm for most of the day yesterday. You wouldn't want swimmers in the water all along the beach, then have the conditions quickly change for the worse. That would be a disaster waiting to happen. However, closing THE BEACH, doesn't make sense. Rising water will naturally close off the beach long before the storm has potential of damaging the TDC public walkovers. I can understand accesses being closed off if water is nibbling away the sand at the bottom of the stairs, and I could only guess that it would be difficult to have TDC staff waiting at the walkovers, for the rising water during a storm, so they could make a mad dash to close off the accesses, during the storm. That somewhat makes sense.

Truluv, I don't think the TDC has the authority to close off access to Grayton Beach. I've never seen the drive-on accesses to GB, closed, even during Hurr Ivan, or the 2005 storms. Water itself will limit one's access, and the blowing sand will sandblast the paint off a car in less than an hour.

I was impressed to see the TDC had removed all of the trash bags from the beaches:clap: in preparation for the storm. Good job!

Yes, the TDC is in a bind, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[firemanjimg]

Grayton beach was open, no barricades or cones. About half a dozen vehicles and a bunch of beach people enjoying the clumps of june grass and a solid wall of jelly fish.

[Smiling JOe]

I walked out on Grayton yesterday, and never saw any June Grass nor a single jelly fish. What time was there a wall of jellies?

[nodilberthere]

There are other people here other than tourists! The flags are in place. The signs are in place. If you want safety that bad, maybe we should all be under curfew like children! What is interesting is that blocking the access blocks the locals who have a right to experience the beach and its weather, and the surfers who have the right to ride the waves. Left in place are the tourists with money. Keep in mind that surfers and locals have saved more people than lifeguards. Be careful what you wish for! For safety, are you willing to give up freedom? I am not!


Do you believe you have more of a right to walk and look at the beach than the dirty filthy idiot tourists who spend their evil blood money in your community?

[enfuego]

There are other people here other than tourists! The flags are in place. The signs are in place. If you want safety that bad, maybe we should all be under curfew like children! What is interesting is that blocking the access blocks the locals who have a right to experience the beach and its weather, and the surfers who have the right to ride the waves. Left in place are the tourists with money. Keep in mind that surfers and locals have saved more people than lifeguards. Be careful what you wish for! For safety, are you willing to give up freedom? I am not!


Just like the sun coming out and blessing us with a beautiful day come the naysayers, pundits and wannbees. Let us be thankful that this was a mere inconvenience that probably caused a little "cabin fever" for the locals and visitors alike. This thread was started with a legitimate question. Is this beach open or not? It is. It was closed and double red flags were posted on Friday. The EOC or the TDC do not make this decision in a vacuum. SWFD, WCSO AND the EOC make these decisions and as always it is in the best interest of SOWALLERS that if the weather had turned really foul it doesn't place the deputies and FFs in uneccessary risks.

SJ is right- Damn if you do, damn if you don't...

[truluv]

Wow nodilberthere, not fond of the touristas? I was at the 83 and Walline accesses, all closed up. SJ, I understand the red flags, but to close off parking at accesses? I know emergency situations often times require some advance planning, and I know common sense might keep me off the beach during the high point of a storm, but don,t I have to take responsibility for my own security without someone (govt.) restricting my access to the beach? How come Grayton wasn't closed? I know you can'y keep stupid folks out of the gulf even on double reds, but I noticed the cones didn,t keep folks off the beach. If it's a BEACH liability issue, why weren't private accesses blocked as well? Sure is a beautiful day today. Dissapointed that Obama didn't pick Herschel Walker for VP though, oh well....

[Smiling JOe]

truluv, this is the first I've heard that parking lots at the regional public accesses were closed. I think that is just wrong, personally.

I am still confused. In post #10, I am reading that the "beach" was closed. I've never heard of the beach being closed. Not during any previous storms has that happened, and if that was true, why did the Sheriff's Deputy not say anything to me when he passed me on the beach yesterday, at Grayton? To my knowledge, the beach was never closed, only the water was closed.

[30A Skunkape]

There are other people here other than tourists! The flags are in place. The signs are in place. If you want safety that bad, maybe we should all be under curfew like children! What is interesting is that blocking the access blocks the locals who have a right to experience the beach and its weather, and the surfers who have the right to ride the waves. Left in place are the tourists with money. Keep in mind that surfers and locals have saved more people than lifeguards. Be careful what you wish for! For safety, are you willing to give up freedom? I am not!

As a local, I am sure you know of many non-TDC access points that are wide open at all times. I saw quite a few surfers at the Inlet Beach public access today. I also saw three fools swimming. Darned if they do, darned if they don't.

[Miss Kitty]

I'm telling you...our government is growing in order to keep up and "protect" us from ourselves!!!! :roll:

Whatever happened to those sweet little words....

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY?????

[Bobby J]

As a local, I am sure you know of many non-TDC access points that are wide open at all times. I saw quite a few surfers at the Inlet Beach public access today. I also saw three fools swimming. Darned if they do, darned if they don't.


I just really think we do not have to have so many rules. Put the flags up, educate and hope for the best. You can not police stupidity or ignorance!

[SoWalProfire]

Public servants will still be required to serve the public even when the factors giving rise to the need for that service are precipitated by ignorance or stupidity. We can't just put up the flags and signs and hope for the best. We will still have to send people into the water to rescue folks who need rescuing. (or body recovery, as is the case from time to time).

Because I am not personally involved in the process, I can only guess that closing the parking and public accesses was an attempt to keep uneducated, ignorant or stupid people (mostly tourist I would think) out of the water. I doubt that this action was designed to address those of us who know better than to swim in double red conditions.;-)

I think there is a legitimate concern also, that not closing the public accesses prior to almost certain impending damage and destruction could be a liability to the entity tasked with the safe upkeep and maintenance of those access. (remember how many accesses were either damaged or completely destroyed in every serious storm we have ever had).

Having said all of this, I do realize that there is an inconvenience issue for those of us who have a brain but still want to enjoy our favorite beach during this beautifully intense weather. But overall, I think the benefit out ways the cost on this one. Also, just speaking for myself of coarse, being a local, If I want to be on the beach, tape won't stop me.:biggrin:

[Andy A.]

I'm telling you...our government is growing in order to keep up and "protect" us from ourselves!!!! :roll:

Whatever happened to those sweet little words....

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY?????
Haven't you noticed? They no longer are applicable. And this time I'm not going to get so close to your litter box.:blush:

[truluv]

Madam Felinus, I Concurus ' personal responsibility' is the Cat's meow!

[beachmouse]

Over to the west, back when Ivan was starting to put feeder bands into the area, we stopped over at Wayside Park on Okaloosa Island on the way back from FWB to have a look at things, and got chased out of there by the Okaloosa SO, who told us that the park was closed and that they were locking everything up once the cars were out of there because the Island was under a mandatory evacuation.

So I don't see closing beach accesses in advance of a storm as some sort of ground-breaking insult, just maybe a bit of an overreaction for a storm that was never supposed to be as bad as that.

[jack S]

Do you believe you have more of a right to walk and look at the beach than the dirty filthy idiot tourists who spend their evil blood money in your community?

Not at all. I didn't call the tourists idiots, thats your add. It is however, the tourist who drowns! Absent lifeguards, the local surfer is his best hope. Every time a tourist drowns there is a push for a new wave of restriction. The local beach people know the water, and know better than rush to meet king Neptune!

[BeachSiO2]

To clarify my earlier post, when the EOC makes the determination that the water is closed in an impending storm, the public accesses are closed. In most cases (all that I am aware of), it includes the closing of walkovers and parking areas. I am not aware of the Grayton drive on area ever being closed. One thing to keep in mind since hindsight is always 20-20, at 4pm on Friday, the EOC made the decision to close the water and thus the public accesses with the following information.

As of 7am on Friday, there was expected to be sustained winds of more than 30mph with gusts exceeding 40 and the winds expecting to increase throughout the morning daylight hours. Moreover, there were going to be a tremendous amount of rain with this storm. Both of these together can make the accesses slippery and unsafe. Their decision with the input of all the other public safety groups was to close the water and begin securing the accesses the night before to limit problems in the morning. As some of you have pointed out in the past and with this storm also, if she would have stayed further offshore or done like Opal there could have been greater intensification and no way to close things off.

As a side note, I was involved in a mediation where a 60+ year old lady climbed onto the access at Ed Walline when it was raining and wet from Tropical Storm Isidore. She then was hit with a gust of wind and slipped and fell down and was injured. The kicker to it all was that the access was closed. So just saying personal responsibility is not realistic in todays litigious society. You have to make public safety decisions the best you can and that's what they do.

[ASH]

Jack, how about the locals need to set a proper example. While you may think that you know the water so well that you are exempt from the rules of the masses, understand that when the uneducated see you out there, they are left with what other impression than it is OK to head right out there and join you.
Now, who has just become responsible for someone elses stupidity.....the follower......or maybe the leader.

I understand the desire to ride the waves when they are what you want, but the safety of the masses may need to outweigh the desire of the few.

[SoWalProfire]

... The kicker to it all was that the access was closed. So just saying personal responsibility is not realistic in todays litigious society. You have to make public safety decisions the best you can and that's what they do.


Very well put. Thank you.

[SoWalProfire]

... I understand the desire to ride the waves when they are what you want, but the safety of the masses may need to outweigh the desire of the few.

I am not sure I am on this train.

Surfers are "leashed" to a flotation device (their board). I don't see the logic behind a tourist seeing a surfer on a board in rough seas and subsequently thinking that because the surfer is OK, he is going to be OK. That seems a little like someone thinking it would be OK to jump out of an airplane without a chute because they saw how much fun skydivers had.

Maybe my example is a little extreme but, I believe (with respect) that maybe your point is a bit of a stretch as well.

[greenroomsurfer]

I am not sure I am on this train.

Surfers are "leashed" to a flotation device (their board). I don't see the logic behind a tourist seeing a surfer on a board in rough seas and subsequently thinking that because the surfer is OK, he is going to be OK. That seems a little like someone thinking it would be OK to jump out of an airplane without a chute because they saw how much fun skydivers had.

Maybe my example is a little extreme but, I believe (with respect) that maybe your point is a bit of a stretch as well.
Holy crapola!!!! I thought you were completely out of your mind on the other thread but I couldn't agree with you more on this one. Sorry to piss ya off the other day I'm not all ways polite. It is true however that people find a comfort seeing surfers out there and they are drawn to the spot we are surfing in like honey. We usually surf right next to a rip current so we don't have to expend as much energy paddling out. Oh yea no thanks on the xanex or whatever it was and yes I am employed!:biggrin:

[nodilberthere]

Wow nodilberthere, not fond of the touristas? I was at the 83 and Walline accesses, all closed up. SJ, I understand the red flags, but to close off parking at accesses? I know emergency situations often times require some advance planning, and I know common sense might keep me off the beach during the high point of a storm, but don,t I have to take responsibility for my own security without someone (govt.) restricting my access to the beach? How come Grayton wasn't closed? I know you can'y keep stupid folks out of the gulf even on double reds, but I noticed the cones didn,t keep folks off the beach. If it's a BEACH liability issue, why weren't private accesses blocked as well? Sure is a beautiful day today. Dissapointed that Obama didn't pick Herschel Walker for VP though, oh well....


I am a tourist. I live far far away from there. I have seen so many posts referring to tourists as idiots that I couldn't hold it in any longer. I've seen things written that are so mean spirited, it's shocking. Thinning of the herd, more room in the car on the way home, they deserved it......all referring to people who've lost their lives on the beaches there and left behind loved ones to mourn.

Someone not from there does not realize the magnitude of your flag system. I know how crucial it is because I come on here. We have visited many years now. But I know that people who visit rarely and don't read this kind of stuff do not know how many people drown on the beaches there.

[enfuego]

Post #8 on the double red flag thread

[enfuego]

Holy crapola!!!! I thought you were completely out of your mind on the other thread but I couldn't agree with you more on this one. Sorry to piss ya off the other day I'm not all ways polite. It is true however that people find a comfort seeing surfers out there and they are drawn to the spot we are surfing in like honey. We usually surf right next to a rip current so we don't have to expend as much energy paddling out. Oh yea no thanks on the xanex or whatever it was and yes I am employed!:biggrin:


Holy crapola... you have stated in previous post a month or so ago that there is no such thing as a "rip current"

I didn't think you would take searove girl or profire up on there offer, it is easier to use the keyboard as a "bully pulpit" and think that your loosly written resume on the double red thread would cause us all to start lighting your reputation up with thank you... I read the coast guard creed and suggest you revisit it again.

[greenroomsurfer]

Holy crapola... you have stated in previous post a month or so ago that there is no such thing as a "rip current"

I didn't think you would take searove girl or profire up on there offer, it is easier to use the keyboard as a "bully pulpit" and think that your loosly written resume on the double red thread would cause us all to start lighting your reputation up with thank you... I read the coast guard creed and suggest you revisit it again.
Whatever dude! Everyone knows where to find me! As far as the rip current thing it's for the ill informed. Looking back to a month ago tells me you have a lot of time on your hands you must be on the county payroll.

[ASH]

GRS, I have no idea where to find you. Do you really believe that soapbox has some mystical light shining on it or something?

My whole post was an attempt to ask you to look beyond what you see in the mirror and consider that there are people who are nowhere near as connected to beach thinking as you are and consider their safety.

Perhaps I would get further by asking you to consider finding someplace not so populated by those who do not understand the flag system, do not make the connection between a surf board and just swimming and may be trusting the locals to determine safe conditions.

I will let someone else come on to suggest where ego will perhaps get in the way of making this a consideration.

Sorry for this coming across as a slam. I am sure you are right that conditions for surfers are way different than swimmers. I promise you, people are not making this distinction and are drowning for it.

I will add for those reading that I have walked the beach and picked up that precious thread between you and your board no less than 20 times in just the past year. It happens.

Please stay safe out there.

[greenroomsurfer]

So I shouldn't be surfing because people think it is safe to swim. My whole issue can be put real simple to many rules being made by people that don't understand or have a clue. Years ago the Sheriff wanted armbands for all the surfers during double red flag. When we met with him we asked him who was going to go out and enforce this. This was several years ago and things have gotten even more absurd to this date. My gripe is not with you people on this board, it is with the decision makers in this county. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely!

[ASH]

Educate me. What is the point of the arm bands? :idontno:

I am not altogether disagreeing with you. Everyone should be responsible for their own sorry arses, but we both know which direction the intellectual side of society is going. Just think Mc Donalds having to put writing on their coffee cups that says, "Hey, guess what idiot, this cup contains a hot liquid that you should not pour into your lap" because someone did and now may own a home in Seaside. :funn:

[greenroomsurfer]

Educate me. What is the point of the arm bands? :idontno:

I am not altogether disagreeing with you. Everyone should be responsible for their own sorry arses, but we both know which direction the intellectual side of society is going. Just think Mc Donalds having to put writing on their coffee cups that says, "Hey, guess what idiot, this cup contains a hot liquid that you should not pour into your lap" because someone did and now may own a home in Seaside. :funn:
It's sad but how many millions did she get? What is the point of the arm bands? Exactly!!!!

[ASH]

Honest, I don't know what the armbands are for. I know some resorts use them for ID for gated property. How would this help with surfers? ID? If that was the case, I agree that this would seem silly. I understand the instances of surfers drowning pales when compared to others using the beach. Is that really what they were up to?
Most time I see surfers, you folks all kinda stick together. Lotsa help if you got into trouble and many who would know you if the worst happened.

[greenroomsurfer]

Right, it is what I am talking about in this county all these nutso rules and ideas.. What I meant was If we wore wristbands who is gonna go out in hurricane surf and check them? One day it will say when you come over the 331 bridge------Welcome to SoWal, A gated community!!

[Miss Kitty]

Tort reform.

[ASH]

Fay is still affecting us. We have been having lotsa lightning and rain bands passing through coming up out of the gulf. Supposed to do this for awhile today.

[jack S]

Wow, this thread veered! I want to clarify my own post. No way was I putting down tourists. The local is the one often discriminated against in many county decisions of the past. I understand both sides. 32 years of public safety experience (retired) tells me one thing; yellow tape always becomes iron gates in time!!!

[greenroomsurfer]

So when are we paddling out? Work out in the rain did we?

[truluv]

I started this thread to question why someone restricts my access to the beach, something I hate, not as a local/ tourist(I prefer visitor) bash. People will continue to act without regard to warnings, and tape nor bar will keep me from my appointed beach rounds, but who can close the Beach? I like Oregon- ALLacess to ALL beaches ALL the time, common sense prevailing.

[BeachSiO2]

I started this thread to question why someone restricts my access to the beach, something I hate, not as a local/ tourist(I prefer visitor) bash. People will continue to act without regard to warnings, and tape nor bar will keep me from my appointed beach rounds, but who can close the Beach? I like Oregon- ALLacess to ALL beaches ALL the time, common sense prevailing.

Did you see something that said the beach was closed? I am not sure that the beaches were ever closed. The water was closed and the public beach accesses (walkovers and parking lots) were closed.

[greenroomsurfer]

You are in South Carolina. the beaches were closed. The cops were at the bars the and the Truman show set designers put up pretty scenes up so it looked normal and for the first time in many years there was no traffic in Seaside. :floor:

[joebob]

Wow--- i was gonna post and ask what the beach was like during a smaller storm like Fay but it seems there are a few that are a bit testy today ----scary ----- saw PC BEach on the Weather Channel during the Eye and it looked safe enough ----nobody in the water but 7 or 8 hearty soul enjoying the beach----wish I was there >>>............:cool:

[scooterbug44]

I am glad they taped up the public accesses!

FTLOG they put up a couple pieces of tape to prevent possible injury and death, they weren't dragging people to jail in leg chains!

We should be thankful they were proactive and prepared for a storm, not biatching about class distinctions of what walkover got taped! :roll:

[Smiling JOe]

I understand the liability aspects of a slip and fall on wet stairs, but the question comes to mind -- If the EOC closes the public accesses, and the water is closed, but not the beach, are we to deduce that the public accesses are accesses only to the water and not accesses to the beach?

[greenroomsurfer]

I understand the liability aspects of a slip and fall on wet stairs, but the question comes to mind -- If the EOC closes the public accesses, and the water is closed, but not the beach, are we to deduce that the public accesses are accesses only to the water and not accesses to the beach?
Don't confuse the already confused!!!

[BeachSiO2]

You are in South Carolina. the beaches were closed. The cops were at the bars the and the Truman show set designers put up pretty scenes up so it looked normal and for the first time in many years there was no traffic in Seaside. :floor:
Thanks I was confused on where I was :roll:. I am pretty sure you might not know as much as you think sometimes, and this is one of those times. Here's a link to the County's Press Releases. You may want to check the closures and cancellations link before you play Mr. Smartypants. :wave:

http://www.co.walton.fl.us/default.asp?id=116

[BeachSiO2]

I understand the liability aspects of a slip and fall on wet stairs, but the question comes to mind -- If the EOC closes the public accesses, and the water is closed, but not the beach, are we to deduce that the public accesses are accesses only to the water and not accesses to the beach?

The reasons the accesses are closed is due to liability from accidents that could occur due to them being opened, not because they take you to the beach or water. The County doesn't want you on them in a tropical storm, or even worse a hurricane, because you could get hurt. It's not a hypothetical, it has happened.

[truluv]

What about the daily liability with wet feet on any day the access is open. Liability, I think not. Close access any time it rains? Not!

[Smiling JOe]

40mph winds aren't expected with each rain. It was mentioned earlier, the combination of strong wind and rain were the issue, not only rain. My guess is that it would be nearly impossible to ask that TDC employees try to stand guard at each public access and wait for wind to hit a certain speed, so that each access could be quickly closed off, hence the early call on that decision. I just go to Grayton Beach, and am able to avoid all of that red, I mean yellow, tape, though I bet it is more difficult to step through yellow tape with a surfboard at the other accesses, so I can empathize with the surfers.

[BeachSiO2]

What about the daily liability with wet feet on any day the access is open. Liability, I think not. Close access any time it rains? Not!

Here is my last post on this so I hope it helps. In lawsuits regarding public entities, there is protection provided to the public defendant in these types of cases as long as the defendant has taken what are called reasonable and prudent measures to maintain a facility in a manner to limit risks to users. Daily use of a beach access is one thing and the TDC maintains log books of inspections and maintenance that has been performed. Additionally, when the public reports something that is wrong, it is noted and fixed. Is there a possibility that someone could slip and fall in a typical rainstorm and the County be sued. Sure, but that is a risk that is assumed and necessary to be able to provide the public access to the beach, and the likelihood is much smaller.

Now, let's look at the other extreme and what the situation was when it was determined that the accesses should close..

The county knows that a tropical storm is coming. It has produced over 2 1/2 feet of rain in at least one area. The winds in Sowal are anticipated to be at least 30mph with gusts exceeding 40. There is a possibility that on the backside of the storm, sustained winds will be more than 40. Sowal was supposed to be in the eye and it was to be a direct hit. In past storms, there have been rapid intensifications in other areas that must be considered since Fay had been trending offshore. In the past four years, two hurricanes that made landfall in Pensacola and Alabama led to the complete loss of more than 40 walkovers in Sowal. The effects of those storms were in close agreement with tropical storm forces as there landfall was so far away.

History has shown that in this case with TS Isidore, someone was injured and the county was sued. The downside is that the accesses would be closed for a day or so, depending on the storms impact.

Would it be reasonable and prudent to leave the accesses open with all this information? No, I could win this lawsuit and I'm not a lawyer.

[BeachSiO2]

40mph winds aren't expected with each rain. It was mentioned earlier, the combination of strong wind and rain were the issue, not only rain. My guess is that it would be nearly impossible to ask that TDC employees try to stand guard at each public access and wait for wind to hit a certain speed, so that each access could be quickly closed off, hence the early call on that decision. I just go to Grayton Beach, and am amble to avoid all of that red, I mean yellow, tape, though I bet it is more difficult to step through with a surfboard.

Plus it could be stronger, the bridges close, and there are 50+ walkovers and 10 employees. Plus they have to remove over 425 trash bags so junk doesn't get spread all over the beach (thanks for noticing SJ). Not to mention (and here is a shout out to Florida Girl), only two of them live in sowal so if the winds increased they would be stuck.