Russia Georgia Conflict

[full time]

Obama apparently failed his first 3:00 am phone call moment. This piece is a damning indictment on Obama's readiness to lead. I don't think I've seen George Will write a more pointed and blistering article. A conflict in Europe is really going to change the race dynamics here. The LA Times took Obama to task as well. McCain was out front (even before the administration) with strong words of condemnation for Russia. Obama was initially urging restraint on both sides and talking about bodysurfing in Hawaii. He has now moved more in line with McCain's stance.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081102156.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[30A Skunkape]

I enjoy Will's work, but I think this piece is off.

Had Obama done what McCain did and aimed 'a strong statement' at the top level of Russian government he no doubt would have been criticized as wrecklessly undermining the efforts of our State Department. My guess is that Will has criticized Jimmy Carter in the past for his independent efforts to resolve international issues independent of the current administration.

I wonder if George Will will comment on W watching volleyball and waving an American flag as Georgians were being slaughtered. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but come on, calling out Obama who is a congressman, for not being more vocal against the Russian invasion is lame.

[scooterbug44]

Our current President is already discussing the issue face to face w/ Russia's President (who he has a pet name for FTLOG) and they're having a fit because Obama's not involved enough? :idontno:

Tell the media to take a pill and go enjoy the Olympics.

[hnooe]

Bush will probably need to sit this one out, thanks to him, America has no moral authority to chastise or even "sabre rattle" on this one....besides, Mr. Putin has a gazzillion ton of oil there in Russia--we don't want to be cut off from that while we are waiting for the Florida coastal drilling to commence!!

[6thGen]

Tell the media to take a pill and go enjoy the Olympics.

Exactly. Then, after the Olympics, the Lindsay Lohan reality show. And, OMG, what is Paris Hilton wearing? And there's too much damn violence in video games. Do something, for The Children, Congress.

Russia trying to re-establish the USSR? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[full time]

Exactly. Then, after the Olympics, the Lindsay Lohan reality show. And, OMG, what is Paris Hilton wearing? And there's too much damn violence in video games. Do something, for The Children, Congress.

Russia trying to re-establish the USSR? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

It'll be interesting to watch the European reaction to the Georgia mess. Having spent a good deal of time in Europe, including several former Eastern Bloc countries, my inclination is that they are going to cool to Obama now that they fear Russian tanks rolling across their borders. The flowers of communism (ghetto apartment buildings) left an ugly reminder of Soviet domination of that region. I bet Europeans are scared $%*#less about a return to those days.

[scooterbug44]

Forget the issue of us getting involved in Iran - apparently Georgia thinks the US military needs to step in and protect them from Russia! :bang:

[6thGen]

It'll be interesting to watch the European reaction to the Georgia mess. Having spent a good deal of time in Europe, including several former Eastern Bloc countries, my inclination is that they are going to cool to Obama now that they fear Russian tanks rolling across their borders. The flowers of communism (ghetto apartment buildings) left an ugly reminder of Soviet domination of that region. I bet Europeans are scared $%*#less about a return to those days.

RIP Aleksander Solzhenitsyn.

[30ashopper]

Bush will probably need to sit this one out, thanks to him, America has no moral authority to chastise or even "sabre rattle" on this one....besides, Mr. Putin has a gazzillion ton of oil there in Russia--we don't want to be cut off from that while we are waiting for the Florida coastal drilling to commence!!

We don't get much of our oil from Russia -

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm

I think McCain had the better stance and is showing he understands the region and the players. Obama is naive, he doesn't seem to understand the political shift that is taking place in Russia or the fact that Georgia is a an ally of the U.S..

[hnooe]

We don't get much of our oil from Russia -

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm

I think McCain had the better stance and is showing he understands the region and the players. Obama is naive, he doesn't seem to understand the political shift that is taking place in Russia or the fact that Georgia is a an ally of the U.S..

The only understands the region and it players, is because one of his top advisor is a paid lobbyist for Georgia. McCain has a lot of good connections in DC after 35 years.

While Aide Advised McCain, His Firm Lobbied for Georgia - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202932.html)

[full time]

The only understands the region and it players, is because one of his top advisor is a paid lobbyist for Georgia. McCain has a lot of good connections in DC after 35 years.

While Aide Advised McCain, His Firm Lobbied for Georgia - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202932.html)

Your reaction to Russia overthrowing a democratically elected government in central Europe very friendly to the US is that McCain's adviser is a paid lobbyist to Georgia? The leaders of Poland, Estonia, Lithuania and other Baltic Republics were in the capital of Georgia to show solidarity with leaders of Georgia, because these leaders fear that they might be next. You're response (which was Obama's as well) shows why people have deep reservations about Obama as President. You might also consider that the position you parrot is not likely to endear America to its allies which is something the Democrats have crititicized Bush for constantly.

[30A Skunkape]

I didn't think Georgia mattered. At least that was the impression I got from Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 during his bombastic 'roll call' of the coalition of countries that sent troops to Iraq to help us out.:idontno:

[scooterbug44]

If they're so worried, why don't Poland, Estonia, Lithuania etc. send the troops, aid, and supplies then!

We're sort of busy in another area (where they couldn't be bothered to help) and I think it might be nice if our troops got to come home to their families once in a while!

[Bob]

Russia could grab the entire Ukrainian state, and we would do nothing militarily. It would be like Putin intervening in a dispute with Mexico. The U.S. has nothing to gain by wagering everything on this fight. Any Repubs out there want to bring out the domino theory from the mothballs?

[30ashopper]

The only understands the region and it players, is because one of his top advisor is a paid lobbyist for Georgia. McCain has a lot of good connections in DC after 35 years.

While Aide Advised McCain, His Firm Lobbied for Georgia - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202932.html)

:roll::roll::roll: On HuffPo today they had a post suggesting it was a conspiracy and that McCain started the whole thing to get elected! :roll::roll::roll:

I think Obama reacted to this in a fasion typical of his political idiology, McCain did the same. You agree with one of them or the other.

[30ashopper]

Russia could grab the entire Ukrainian state, and we would do nothing militarily. It would be like Putin intervening in a dispute with Mexico. The U.S. has nothing to gain by wagering everything on this fight. Any Repubs out there want to bring out the domino theory from the mothballs?

I do!!! Truman, Eisenhower and Kennedy were right!

edit - and Reagan too. :wave:

[Arkiehawg]

If they're so worried, why don't Poland, Estonia, Lithuania etc. send the troops, aid, and supplies then!

We're sort of busy in another area (where they couldn't be bothered to help) and I think it might be nice if our troops got to come home to their families once in a while!


Typical American response......

Guess which countries have sent troops to support the U.S. in their terrorist war in Afghanistan? Estonia, Lithuania, Poland and Georgia.

Guess which one didn't? Russia.

America is a paper tiger when it comes to helping these democratically elected countries when the big bully goes kicking their arses..... Perhaps they will wise up and do the same the next time we ask for their help....

Gotta be proud of our government and their "strong" support! NOT

[futurebeachbum]

From a blog I read, a discussion of how Russia could expect to get away with this:

take a small country that has one province overwhelmingly populated by an ethnic group that has traditionally been connected politically and culturally with a bordering nation.

Then, that ethnic group decides to revolt, and uses force in an attempt to secede their province from the small nation.

In due course, acting as nation-states are wont to act, the small country uses force to stop the revolt and attempted secession by the breakaway province. This force is directed largely against the ethnic group that seeks to secede.

Peace keepers are then dispatched to the province in order to stop the "ethnic cleansing". Since there is no peace to keep, this is useless, but there you have it. International opinion is appeased.

When fighting continues, the small country decides to cut the "Gordian Knot" and settle things once and for all with relatively massive military force.

So then the local nuclear superpower intervenes to "stop the genocide" (note the escalation in terms?), using massive air power because it's cheap, fast and pretty much all they have ready to go on such short notice, since they were relatively unprepared, and want to protect the peacekeeping forces they have in the breakaway province under the previous agreement. The nuclear powers leadership labels the leadershoip of the small country "war criminals" and demands their punishment.

So then the OTHER nuclear superpower, an ally of the small country, protests vehemently and seeks for anything they can use to punish the offending nuclear superpower for attacking its' ally. With little leverage, the second nuclear superpower is reduced to vehement protests, pointless gestures and a simmering sense of outrage. Over time the entire fiasco poisons the two nuclear superpowers relationship to everyone's loss.

Eventually, when enough times has passed, the breakaway province gains independence, under the protection of the first nuclear superpower, and the small country undergoes a change of regime in a process once called "Finlandization" when we did not like it.

You might think I have just described recent events in Georgia.

You would be wrong.

I have just described events in 1999, in the Balkans, when the United States and NATO intervened in the Serbian province of Kosovo.

Doesn't look like it will be much of a problem for them....

[LuciferSam]

Russia could grab the entire Ukrainian state, and we would do nothing militarily. It would be like Putin intervening in a dispute with Mexico. The U.S. has nothing to gain by wagering everything on this fight. Any Repubs out there want to bring out the domino theory from the mothballs?

Repubs will make the same mistakes over and over and expect different results each time. Now if only they would put on their straitjackets and get out of the way.

[scooterbug44]

Typical American response......

Guess which countries have sent troops to support the U.S. in their terrorist war in Afghanistan? Estonia, Lithuania, Poland and Georgia.

Guess which one didn't? Russia.

America is a paper tiger when it comes to helping these democratically elected countries when the big bully goes kicking their arses..... Perhaps they will wise up and do the same the next time we ask for their help....

Gotta be proud of our government and their "strong" support! NOT

I was actually referring to Iraq, where I mistakenly though they were one of the many countries NOT sending troops or restricting any personnel to non-military roles.

I stand corrected - those 53 Lithuanians (all in non combat roles BTW) really turned the tide!

[hnooe]

News Flash: NPR just announced that Condi Rice is on her way to aid in negotiating a settlement of the Russian conflict.....whew, I for one am going to be able to rest tonight.:sleeping:

[Arkiehawg]

I was actually referring to Iraq, where I mistakenly though they were one of the many countries NOT sending troops or restricting any personnel to non-military roles.

I stand corrected - those 53 Lithuanians (all in non combat roles BTW) really turned the tide!

Still several more than dear ole Russia or China for that matter.

The number of troop support isn't the issue. The fact of the matter is that they did put boots on the ground.....

Point of the matter....is right or wrong we routinely take advantage of little countries for our benefit then provide lip service when they need us....

Case in point....just look at the areas where we now have several boots in the sand..... Little countries and "partners" don't forget...

[30ashopper]

Repubs will make the same mistakes over and over and expect different results each time. Now if only they would put on their straitjackets and get out of the way.

Kennedy was a firm believer in the domino theory and a strong supporter of the concept of containment. How do you think we got into Vietnam?

[6thGen]

Russia could grab the entire Ukrainian state, and we would do nothing militarily. It would be like Putin intervening in a dispute with Mexico. The U.S. has nothing to gain by wagering everything on this fight. Any Repubs out there want to bring out the domino theory from the mothballs?

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

[LuciferSam]

Kennedy was a firm believer in the domino theory and a strong supporter of the concept of containment. How do you think we got into Vietnam?

Ok so you bow to Kennedy's knowledge and authority. What is your point? Do you think Vietnam was a good thing?

[30ashopper]

Ok so you bow to Kennedy's knowledge and authority. What is your point? Do you think Vietnam was a good thing?

Absolutely, however the war was obviously not managed well. If it had been, today we'd have a single Vietnam, sans communist north. Our failure there is not a reflection on the policy of containment, which is still a very valid policy. Communism is not something we want to see spread. Georgia is the first gasp of Russian communism we've seen in 20 years. Taking a hard line stance al la containment is the right position to take. Negotiating with the 'new Russia' is a joke - we have communism on the mat, let's keep it there. The last thing we should be doing is bending over backwards to accommodate it.

[hnooe]

Absolutely, however the war was obviously not managed well. If it had been, today we'd have a single Vietnam, sans communist north and democratic south. Containment is still a very valid policy. Communism is not something we want to see spread. Georgia is the first gasp of Russian communism we've seen in 20 years. Taking a hard line stance al la containment is the right position to take. Negotiating with the 'new Russia' is a joke - we have communism on the mat, let's keep it there. The last thing we should be doing is bending over backwards to accommodate it.


Do we contain these brand spanking, nouveau Communists before or after we contain all the Muslims in the Middle east? While we are at it, maybe we need to contain all French speaking countries too, since they are almost Communists.

Frankly, I think we need just need to contain the Hystericals.

[30ashopper]

Do we contain these brand spanking, nouveau Communists before or after we contain all the Muslims in the Middle east? While we are at it, maybe we need to contain all French speaking countries too, since they are almost Communists.

Frankly, I think we need just need to contain the Hystericals.

Hnooe2000, are you implying the United States and our allies aren't capable of or justified in defending and promoting our ideals throughout the world? Are you saying we should just back off, let the powers that be gain control while we take a total hands off stance? If so is that a 'good thing'? What is your stance on foreign policy? Please clarify your position.

[LuciferSam]

Absolutely, however the war was obviously not managed well. If it had been, today we'd have a single Vietnam, sans communist north. Our failure there is not a reflection on the policy of containment, which is still a very valid policy. Communism is not something we want to see spread. Georgia is the first gasp of Russian communism we've seen in 20 years. Taking a hard line stance al la containment is the right position to take. Negotiating with the 'new Russia' is a joke - we have communism on the mat, let's keep it there. The last thing we should be doing is bending over backwards to accommodate it.

I think Kennedy was wrong and the Vietnam war was a terrible mistake. We have no business telling other countries what form of government they should institute. There can be human rights abuses in democracies and dictatorships alike. By the way, didn't Georgia initiate the use of force against their own people in this case? Why should I automatically be on their side. With our luck (and lack of thought and skill), ten years from now Georgians willl be flying airplanes into our buildings. Maybe they deserve a good smackdown. Why should I be so quick to decide? If I'm to use history as a guide, I'd rather wait until I know all the facts.

[LuciferSam]

Hnooe2000, are you implying the United States and our allies aren't capable of or justified in defending and promoting our ideals throughout the world? Are you saying we should just back off, let the powers that be gain control while we take a total hands off stance? If so is that a 'good thing'? What is your stance on foreign policy? Please clarify your position.

I'll say that we should be vocal about our values but we shouldn't act like the overbearing salesman at a party who can't leave his work at home and who everybody wishes would just leave.

[30ashopper]

I'll say that we should be vocal about our values but we shouldn't act like the overbearing salesman at a party who can't leave his work at home and who everybody wishes would just leave.

Actually I'd be happy either way - heavily involed or not involved at all. I wouldn't mind it if the U.S. pulled completely back from the world for a period - let all these loosers who think we meddle too much find out what the world would be like without our involvement. I think they'de learn a valuable lesson from that.

[6thGen]

Actually I'd be happy either way - heavily involed or not involved at all. I wouldn't mind it if the U.S. pulled completely back from the world for a period - let all these loosers who think we meddle too much find out what the world would be like without our involvement. I think they'de learn a valuable lesson from that.

So would we.

[LuciferSam]

Actually I'd be happy either way - heavily involed or not involved at all. I wouldn't mind it if the U.S. pulled completely back from the world for a period - let all these loosers who think we meddle too much find out what the world would be like without our involvement. I think they'de learn a valuable lesson from that.

After doing some reading, this situation is not simple. I have to admit I knew almost nothing about Georgia, Saakashvili, and the separitist enclaves in Georgia. If nothing else, it sounds like Saakashvili is a fool. He was warned last month by Condolezza Rice not to use force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia. In other words don't start something you can't finish. I guess publicly Rice took a more agressive stance. Now Saakashvili is claiming that he thought he was going to have US military support. His agressive attacks have given Russia the "justification" to come swarming into Georgia under the guise that they are defending innocent civilians. I'm not blaming the US, but we could have handled things differently. I have no confidence in Condi's ability to stay on top of things, and of course, the Georgia leader sounds like an idiot.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/13/europe/diplo.php

[full time]

After doing some reading, this situation is not simple. I have to admit I knew almost nothing about Georgia, Saakashvili, and the separitist enclaves in Georgia. If nothing else, it sounds like Saakashvili is a fool. He was warned last month by Condolezza Rice not to use force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia. In other words don't start something you can't finish. I guess publicly Rice took a more agressive stance. Now Saakashvili is claiming that he thought he was going to have US military support. His agressive attacks have given Russia the "justification" to come swarming into Georgia under the guise that they are defending innocent civilians. I'm not blaming the US, but we could have handled things differently. I have no confidence in Condi's ability to stay on top of things, and of course, the Georgia leader sounds like an idiot.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/13/europe/diplo.php

You might want to go back and read some more. It's not smart to poke the bear in the eye with a stick but lets not confuse the victim here. Russia has been giving out Russian passports in the two Georgian enclaves like candy at a Doctor's office. It has been angling for a fight in Georgia and was going to get one eventually. Pentagon sources today said with respect to the humanitarian mission, "we'll go wherever we want, whenever we want". That part of the world is a tough place, and they understand a clear, tough message that can be executed. Military planes and ships arriving with aid for Georgia along with a visit from the Secretary of State is clear enough.

[scooterbug44]

A picture is worth a thousand words!

[LuciferSam]

You might want to go back and read some more. It's not smart to poke the bear in the eye with a stick but lets not confuse the victim here. Russia has been giving out Russian passports in the two Georgian enclaves like candy at a Doctor's office. It has been angling for a fight in Georgia and was going to get one eventually. Pentagon sources today said with respect to the humanitarian mission, "we'll go wherever we want, whenever we want". That part of the world is a tough place, and they understand a clear, tough message that can be executed. Military planes and ships arriving with aid for Georgia along with a visit from the Secretary of State is clear enough.

I don't see your reasoning. A couple of small enclaves want to become part of Russia and Russia eggs them on. Georgia doesn't like so it brutally massacres its citizens and starts a war it can't possibly win. What did I miss? So are we going to provide some of this humanitarian aid to the enclaves as well?

[full time]

Well you got the Russian talking points down.

[elgordoboy]

You might want to go back and read some more. It's not smart to poke the bear in the eye with a stick but lets not confuse the victim here. Russia has been giving out Russian passports in the two Georgian enclaves like candy at a Doctor's office. It has been angling for a fight in Georgia and was going to get one eventually. Pentagon sources today said with respect to the humanitarian mission, "we'll go wherever we want, whenever we want". That part of the world is a tough place, and they understand a clear, tough message that can be executed. Military planes and ships arriving with aid for Georgia along with a visit from the Secretary of State is clear enough.
Seems as if Russia is saying "we'll go wherever we want, whenever we want" too, and it actually put its money where its mouth is with a clear, tough message that it most certainly executed.

[full time]

Seems as if Russia is saying "we'll go wherever we want, whenever we want" too, and it actually put its money where its mouth is with a clear, tough message that it most certainly executed.

All the more reason that calling for restraint on both sides and blaming the victim is absolutely the wrong message to send to the Russians. Bush and Obama were both out to lunch initially on this one.

[6thGen]

Seems as if Russia is saying "we'll go wherever we want, whenever we want" too, and it actually put its money where its mouth is with a clear, tough message that it most certainly executed.

Not always. See Pugachev, Yemelyan. Of course, when the party's over the whole quartering thing kind of sucks, but there's no such thing as a free lunch. The Georgians just needs to find an inspiring figure that looks a lot like Yeltsin.

[Andy A.]

Ok so you bow to Kennedy's knowledge and authority. What is your point? Do you think Vietnam was a good thing?
This is off point but I can't resist. It could have been a very good thing if the military attempting to assist the South Vietnamese had been given any support by the American public. I'll quit here before I say something I'll really be sorry for later. It appears some of you have received you International Relations education on the rides at Disney World.

[Andy A.]

After doing some reading, this situation is not simple. I have to admit I knew almost nothing about Georgia, Saakashvili, and the separitist enclaves in Georgia. If nothing else, it sounds like Saakashvili is a fool. He was warned last month by Condolezza Rice not to use force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia. In other words don't start something you can't finish. I guess publicly Rice took a more agressive stance. Now Saakashvili is claiming that he thought he was going to have US military support. His agressive attacks have given Russia the "justification" to come swarming into Georgia under the guise that they are defending innocent civilians. I'm not blaming the US, but we could have handled things differently. I have no confidence in Condi's ability to stay on top of things, and of course, the Georgia leader sounds like an idiot.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/13/europe/diplo.php
You have no confidence in anyone's ability that is not to the left of Ghengis (sp) Khan.

[elgordoboy]

This is off point but I can't resist. It could have been a very good thing if the military attempting to assist the South Vietnamese had been given any support by the American public. I'll quit here before I say something I'll really be sorry for later. It appears some of you have received you International Relations education on the rides at Disney World.
Lesson #1........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W83dDWlPYXU

[Andy A.]

Elgordoboy, don't come at me with embedded videos from "you tube" because I ain't lookin'. I was there-twice-and on this one my mind is definitely made up and, I might add, since all I've seen since, correct.

[full time]

To Russia with love.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/poland.us.missile.shield/

[scooterbug44]

Would this be the same missile shield that doesn't work? :roll:

And just WHO is paying to modernize Poland's military?

[full time]

Would this be the same missile shield that doesn't work? :roll:

And just WHO is paying to modernize Poland's military?

Funny - the Russians seem fairly concerned about an inoperable missle system. I don't pay much attention to monetary concerns raised by a person who desires $8.00 to $12.00 a gallon gasoline for US taxpayers.

[scooterbug44]

I never said I wanted $8-$12 gas! I said since that's what Europe pays our $4 isn't so high in comparison!

The Russians aren't upset because the "missile shield" is effective, they're upset because we're building up the military, placing missiles in Poland, and trying to jumpstart Cold War 2.0!

[30ashopper]

I never said I wanted $8-$12 gas! I said since that's what Europe pays our $4 isn't so high in comparison!

The Russians aren't upset because the "missile shield" is effective, they're upset because we're building up the military, placing missiles in Poland, and trying to jumpstart Cold War 2.0!

By invading a sovereign nation interested in joining NATO, who's doing the jump starting here? I also don't understand why Dems hate the missle shield idea, the whole purpose is to make nuclear missles obsolete. How could anybody think that's a bad idea?

I feel for Russia honestly, the former USSR has been dissolving away for 20 years now. But I think we are making the right decision in supporting Georgia.

[Miss Kitty]

Would this be the same missile shield that doesn't work? :roll:

And just WHO is paying to modernize Poland's military?

Funny - the Russians seem fairly concerned about an inoperable missle system. I don't pay much attention to monetary concerns raised by a person who desires $8.00 to $12.00 a gallon gasoline for US taxpayers.

I never said I wanted $8-$12 gas! I said since that's what Europe pays our $4 isn't so high in comparison!

The Russians aren't upset because the "missile shield" is effective, they're upset because we're building up the military, placing missiles in Poland, and trying to jumpstart Cold War 2.0!


08-12-2008, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by full time http://sowal.com/bb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sowal.com/bb/showthread.php?p=449758#post449758)
The economy is struggling at $4.00 a gallon gasoline. You would like it higher I presume?

Yes! :wave:

Gas prices aren't the only reason for the current economy - most of it is compounded stupid financial decisions from the top down!

$4 a gallon gasoline (still several dollars cheaper than Europe BTW) made us use less, actively think about conservation, and created a demand for higher mileage vehicles and better alternatives.

Would you prefer we have artificially cheap gas and pour millions and billions into government subsidies and "research". I'd rather let the market drive the research and consumption!
__________________

[mikecatadjuster]

Our media sucks big time. I've noticed this before on other issues. I have seen several representatives fro Russia speaking with news media and the Russian rep says that Georgia did horrible things to precipitate the current events. They did not elaborate and the damn reporter did not say, "Wait, what exactly are you saying that Gergia did to deserve to be invaded?" They never ask. Did Georgia do something and the media doesn't want that side discussed? I doubt it, but I wonder. It's just weird that I haven't seen a reported ask this question after the Russian official makes these claims.

Heck, if I were a reporter, I would ask it. Sitting on my sofa I nearly leap off and ask myself. I hate watching people making unsubstantiated claims and not being called out on it.

Another thing I noticed about our media is the teasing of China. They tease China about having 'fake' fireworks' and having a girl 'lip sync' or having 'under age' gymnyst and the horrible 'pollution'. The pollution thing is at least a real issue, but it seems like a concerted effort to make China out to be some horrible entity.

From my perspective some people long to have an enemy like we had with the Soviet Union years ago. Heck, it wasn't long ago that Chiina was totally closed off. They obviously have a lot of problems in their country, but I see no reason for our media to all be giving the same negative images of China.

Again, our media sucks. But, I guess as far as humans go and cultures go, relatively speaking, they're okay :)

[scooterbug44]

Big difference between advocating letting gas prices go above $4 so that the market/consumer will correct the problem and drive new technology (instead of gov't subsidies) and wanting $8-12 a gallon! :roll:

[elgordoboy]

Our media sucks big time. I've noticed this before on other issues. I have seen several representatives fro Russia speaking with news media and the Russian rep says that Georgia did horrible things to precipitate the current events. They did not elaborate and the damn reporter did not say, "Wait, what exactly are you saying that Gergia did to deserve to be invaded?" They never ask. Did Georgia do something and the media doesn't want that side discussed? I doubt it, but I wonder. It's just weird that I haven't seen a reported ask this question after the Russian official makes these claims.

Heck, if I were a reporter, I would ask it. Sitting on my sofa I nearly leap off and ask myself. I hate watching people making unsubstantiated claims and not being called out on it.

Another thing I noticed about our media is the teasing of China. They tease China about having 'fake' fireworks' and having a girl 'lip sync' or having 'under age' gymnyst and the horrible 'pollution'. The pollution thing is at least a real issue, but it seems like a concerted effort to make China out to be some horrible entity.

From my perspective some people long to have an enemy like we had with the Soviet Union years ago. Heck, it wasn't long ago that Chiina was totally closed off. They obviously have a lot of problems in their country, but I see no reason for our media to all be giving the same negative images of China.

Again, our media sucks. But, I guess as far as humans go and cultures go, relatively speaking, they're okay :)
Just a minute, what do you think the media really does that it "sucks", and not only that, but "sucks big time"? Explain yourself! (I am off the lazy boy and walking around until I get an answer.)
*ETA* I am joking here, I was "leaping off my recliner" to have you substantiate your claims. I don't want to wrongly aggravate anyone.

[Miss Kitty]

Big difference between advocating letting gas prices go above $4 so that the market/consumer will correct the problem and drive new technology (instead of gov't subsidies) and wanting $8-12 a gallon! :roll:

Yes, but do you understand why the poster made that claim? IJS.

[full time]

Big difference between advocating letting gas prices go above $4 so that the market/consumer will correct the problem and drive new technology (instead of gov't subsidies) and wanting $8-12 a gallon! :roll:

Your thought process on both US energy policy and turning a blind eye to Russia's expansionist agenda is very dangerous. Unfortunately, I think Obama will be dragged your direction by the vocal extremists in your party who are so anti-Bush, anti-business, they've become anti-American. Western Europe gets much of its oil from Russia and the high price is fueling Russian aggression. Obstructing additional drilling and nuclear power in this country and appeasing Russia is going to make matters much worse. Wake up!

[elgordoboy]

Your thought process on both US energy policy and turning a blind eye to Russia's expansionist agenda is very dangerous. Unfortunately, I think Obama will be dragged your direction by the vocal extremists in your party who are so anti-Bush, anti-business, they've become anti-American. Western Europe gets much of its oil from Russia and the high price is fueling Russian aggression. Obstructing additional drilling and nuclear power in this country and appeasing Russia is going to make matters much worse. Wake up!
What has this to do with the matter?

[LuciferSam]

This is off point but I can't resist. It could have been a very good thing if the military attempting to assist the South Vietnamese had been given any support by the American public. I'll quit here before I say something I'll really be sorry for later. It appears some of you have received you International Relations education on the rides at Disney World.

No, I got mine on the small world boat ride at the '65 worlds fair. Go watch gordo's vid.

[LuciferSam]

You have no confidence in anyone's ability that is not to the left of Ghengis (sp) Khan.

I think you are way too quick to judge what I said about Condi. I heard a soundbite of her around 5:25 on the Mark Levin show. She had the poise of a first grader doing her first show n' tell.

[LuciferSam]

Well you got the Russian talking points down.

If the cold hard truth hurts you so much you're in the wrong place.:idontno:

[30ashopper]

I think you are way too quick to judge what I said about Condi. I heard a soundbite of her around 5:25 on the Mark Levin show. She had the poise of a first grader doing her first show n' tell.

In 1967, the family moved to Denver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver), Colorado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado). She attended St. Mary's Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary%27s_Academy_(Englewood)), a private all-girls Catholic high school in Cherry Hills Village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_Hills_Village,_Colorado), Colorado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado). After studying piano at the Aspen Music Festival and School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspen_Music_Festival_and_School), Rice enrolled at the University of Denver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Denver), where her father both served as an assistant dean and taught a class called "The Black Experience in America." Dean John Rice opposed institutional racism, government oppression, and the Vietnam War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War).

Rice attended a course on international politics taught by Josef Korbel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Korbel), the father of future Secretary of State Madeleine Albright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright). This experience sparked her interest in the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) and international relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_relations) and made her call Korbel "one of the most central figures in my life."[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#cite_note-14)

Rice graduated from St. Mary's Academy in 1970. In 1974, at age 19, Rice earned her BA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BA) in political science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_science), Phi Beta Kappa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi_Beta_Kappa), from the University of Denver. In 1975, she obtained her Master's Degree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%27s_Degree) in political science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_science) from the University of Notre Dame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Notre_Dame). She first worked in the State Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Department) in 1977, during the Carter administration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_administration), as an intern in the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs. In 1981, at the age of 26, she received her PhD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Philosophy) in Political Science from the Graduate School of International Studies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduate_School_of_International_Studies) at Denver. Her dissertation along with some of her earliest publications, centered on military policy and politics in Czechoslovakia.

Rice was hired by Stanford University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_University) as an Assistant Professor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistant_Professor) of Political Science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_science) (1981–1987). She was promoted to Associate Professor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associate_Professor) in 1987, a post she held until 1993. She was a specialist on the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) and gave lectures on the subject for the Berkeley-Stanford joint program led by UC Berkeley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Berkeley) Professor George Breslauer (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_Breslauer&action=edit&redlink=1) in the mid-1980s.

At a 1985 meeting of arms control experts at Stanford, Rice's performance drew the attention of Brent Scowcroft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Scowcroft), who had served as National Security Advisor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Advisor_(United_States)) under Gerald Ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford).[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#cite_note-Baker.2C_20080403-19) With the election of George H. W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush), Scowcroft returned to the White House as National Security Adviser in 1989, and he asked Rice to become his Soviet expert on the United States National Security Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Security_Council). According to R. Nicholas Burns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Nicholas_Burns), President Bush was "captivated" by Rice, and relied heavily on her advice in his dealings with Mikhail Gorbachev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev) and Boris Yeltsin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Yeltsin).[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#cite_note-Baker.2C_20080403-19)

Since she would have been ineligible for tenure at Stanford if she had been absent for more than two years, in 1991, she returned to Stanford. She was now taken under the wing of George P. Shultz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Shultz) (Ronald Reagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan)'s Secretary of State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secretary_of_State) from 1982-1989), who was a fellow at the Hoover Institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Institution). Shultz included Rice in a "luncheon club" of intellectuals who met every few weeks to discuss foreign affairs.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#cite_note-Baker.2C_20080403-19) In 1992, Shultz, who was a board member of Chevron Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevron_Corporation), recommended Rice for a spot on the Chevron board. Chevron was pursuing a $10 billion development project in Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan), and as a Soviet specialist, Rice knew the President of Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Kazakhstan), Nursultan Nazarbayev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursultan_Nazarbayev). She traveled to Kazakhstan on Chevron's behalf, and, in honor of her work, in 1993, Chevron named a 129,000-ton supertanker SS Condoleezza Rice.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#cite_note-Baker.2C_20080403-19) During this period, Rice was also appointed to the boards of Transamerica Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transamerica_Corporation) (1991) and Hewlett-Packard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard) (1992).

At Stanford, in 1992, Rice volunteered to serve on the search committee to replace outgoing president Donald Kennedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Kennedy). The committee ultimately recommended Gerhard Casper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Casper), the Provost of the University of Chicago. Casper met Rice during this search, and was so impressed that in 1993, he appointed her as Stanford's Provost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provost_(education)), the chief budget and academic officer of the university (1993–1999),[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#cite_note-Baker.2C_20080403-19) and she also was granted tenure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenure) and became full Professor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor) in 1993 (1993–present).[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#cite_note-20) Rice was the first female, first minority, and youngest Provost at Stanford.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#cite_note-21) She was also named a Senior Fellow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senior_Fellow) of the Institute for International Studies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Spogli_Institute_for_International_Studies ), and a Senior Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Institution).

[30ashopper]

Pretty impressive "show and tell" if you ask me.

[Rita]

.

Definitely impressive! She had better watch out though as some people might try to label her as "Elite" with that resume. IJS .;-)




.

[full time]

If the cold hard truth hurts you so much you're in the wrong place.:idontno:

Since when did repeating what you read in the International Tribune constitute "cold hard truth". No offense - but you really don't appear to understand much about the former Soviet Union and the current Russia. Try to understand that former KGB members and current leaders of Russia are pretty bad guys and pretty good at misinformation. You would be wise not to believe everything you read coming from their mouths.

[30ashopper]

.

Definitely impressive! She had better watch out though as some people might try to label her as "Elite" with that resume. IJS .;-)


Obama was born on August 4, 1961, at the Kapiolani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapiolani) Medical Center in Honolulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu,_Hawaii), Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii), to Barack Obama, Sr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama,_Sr.), a Black Kenyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenyan) of Nyang’oma Kogelo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyang%E2%80%99oma_Kogelo), Siaya District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siaya_District), Kenya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya), and Ann Dunham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham), a White American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American) from Wichita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichita,_Kansas), Kansas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas). His parents met while attending the University of Hawaii at Manoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Hawaii_at_Manoa), where his father was a foreign student.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-3) They separated when he was two years old and later divorced.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-4) Obama's father returned to Kenya and saw him only once more before dying in an automobile accident in 1982.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-5) After her divorce, Dunham married Lolo Soetoro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolo_Soetoro), and the family moved to Soetoro's home country of Indonesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia) in 1967, where Obama attended local schools in Jakarta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta) until he was ten years old. He then returned to Honolulu to live with his maternal grandparents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelyn_and_Stanley_Dunham) while attending Punahou School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punahou_School) from the fifth grade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States#School_grades) in 1971 until his graduation from high school in 1979.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-6) Obama's mother returned to Hawaii in 1972 for several years and then back to Indonesia for her fieldwork. She died of ovarian cancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovarian_cancer) in 1995.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-7)

Following high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles,_California), where he studied at Occidental College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_College) for two years.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-8) He then transferred to Columbia University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_College_of_Columbia_University) in New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City), where he majored in political science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_science) with a specialization in international relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_relations).[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-9) Obama graduated with a B.A. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Arts) from Columbia in 1983, then worked for a year at the Business International Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_International_Corporation)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-10) and then at the New York Public Interest Research Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Public_Interest_Research_Group).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Who.27s_Who_2008-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-12)

After four years in New York City, Obama moved to Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago) to work as a community organizer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_organizer) for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseland,_Chicago), West Pullman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Pullman,_Chicago), and Riverdale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverdale,_Chicago)) on Chicago's far South Side (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Side_(Chicago)).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Who.27s_Who_2008-11)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-13) During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altgeld_Gardens,_Chicago).[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-14) Obama also worked as a consultant and instructor for the Gamaliel Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel_Foundation), a community organizing institute.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-15) In mid-1988, he traveled for the first time to Europe for three weeks then Kenya for five weeks where he met many of his Kenyan relatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama_family) for the first time.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-16)

Obama entered Harvard Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_School) in late 1988 and at the end of his first year was selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_Review) based on his grades and a writing competition.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_2007-17) In his second year he was elected president of the Law Review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_1990-18) Obama's election in February 1990 as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review was widely reported and followed by several long, detailed profiles.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_1990-18) He graduated with a J.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor) magna cum laude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_honors) from Harvard in 1991 and returned to Chicago where he had worked as a summer associate at the law firms of Sidley & Austin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidley_Austin) in 1989 and Hopkins & Sutter in 1990.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_2007-17)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-19)

The publicity from his election as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review led to a contract and advance to write a book about race relations.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Scott_2008a-20) In an effort to recruit him to their faculty, the University of Chicago Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago_Law_School) provided Obama with a fellowship and an office to work on his book.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Scott_2008a-20) He originally planned to finish the book in one year, but it took much longer as the book evolved into a personal memoir. In order to work without interruptions, Obama and his wife, Michelle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Obama), traveled to Bali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali) where he wrote for several months. The manuscript was finally published as Dreams from My Father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreams_from_My_Father) in mid-1995.

[30ashopper]

I'll take Condi or McCain over Barack in a heartbeat. They both have more experience in international affairs than he does, and I doubt I'll ever hear Condi explaining why mid-westerners in Colorado (where I'm from) cling to god and guns when times get tough.

[Rita]

Obama was born on August 4, 1961, at the Kapiolani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapiolani) Medical Center in Honolulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu,_Hawaii), Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii), to Barack Obama, Sr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama,_Sr.), a Black Kenyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenyan) of Nyang’oma Kogelo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyang%E2%80%99oma_Kogelo), Siaya District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siaya_District), Kenya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya), and Ann Dunham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham), a White American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American) from Wichita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichita,_Kansas), Kansas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas). His parents met while attending the University of Hawaii at Manoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Hawaii_at_Manoa), where his father was a foreign student.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-3) They separated when he was two years old and later divorced.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-4) Obama's father returned to Kenya and saw him only once more before dying in an automobile accident in 1982.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-5) After her divorce, Dunham married Lolo Soetoro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolo_Soetoro), and the family moved to Soetoro's home country of Indonesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia) in 1967, where Obama attended local schools in Jakarta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta) until he was ten years old. He then returned to Honolulu to live with his maternal grandparents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelyn_and_Stanley_Dunham) while attending Punahou School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punahou_School) from the fifth grade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States#School_grades) in 1971 until his graduation from high school in 1979.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-6) Obama's mother returned to Hawaii in 1972 for several years and then back to Indonesia for her fieldwork. She died of ovarian cancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovarian_cancer) in 1995.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-7)

Following high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles,_California), where he studied at Occidental College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_College) for two years.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-8) He then transferred to Columbia University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_College_of_Columbia_University) in New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City), where he majored in political science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_science) with a specialization in international relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_relations).[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-9) Obama graduated with a B.A. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Arts) from Columbia in 1983, then worked for a year at the Business International Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_International_Corporation)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-10) and then at the New York Public Interest Research Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Public_Interest_Research_Group).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Who.27s_Who_2008-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-12)

After four years in New York City, Obama moved to Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago) to work as a community organizer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_organizer) for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseland,_Chicago), West Pullman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Pullman,_Chicago), and Riverdale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverdale,_Chicago)) on Chicago's far South Side (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Side_(Chicago)).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Who.27s_Who_2008-11)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-13) During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altgeld_Gardens,_Chicago).[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-14) Obama also worked as a consultant and instructor for the Gamaliel Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel_Foundation), a community organizing institute.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-15) In mid-1988, he traveled for the first time to Europe for three weeks then Kenya for five weeks where he met many of his Kenyan relatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama_family) for the first time.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-16)

Obama entered Harvard Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_School) in late 1988 and at the end of his first year was selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_Review) based on his grades and a writing competition.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_2007-17) In his second year he was elected president of the Law Review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_1990-18) Obama's election in February 1990 as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review was widely reported and followed by several long, detailed profiles.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_1990-18) He graduated with a J.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor) magna cum laude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_honors) from Harvard in 1991 and returned to Chicago where he had worked as a summer associate at the law firms of Sidley & Austin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidley_Austin) in 1989 and Hopkins & Sutter in 1990.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Harvard_Law_2007-17)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-19)

The publicity from his election as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review led to a contract and advance to write a book about race relations.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Scott_2008a-20) In an effort to recruit him to their faculty, the University of Chicago Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago_Law_School) provided Obama with a fellowship and an office to work on his book.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#cite_note-Scott_2008a-20) He originally planned to finish the book in one year, but it took much longer as the book evolved into a personal memoir. In order to work without interruptions, Obama and his wife, Michelle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Obama), traveled to Bali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali) where he wrote for several months. The manuscript was finally published as Dreams from My Father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreams_from_My_Father) in mid-1995.

That's my point.
Opponents have tried to stick a label of "Elite" onto Obama as a negative. If getting a high quality education with wide ranging experiences, open-mindedness, and an ability to analyze and compromise situations are elitist - I'll take it!

.

[30ashopper]

That's my point.
Opponents have tried to stick a label of "Elite" onto Obama as a negative. If getting a high quality education with wide ranging experiences, open-mindedness, and an ability to analyze and compromise situations are elitist - I'll take it!

.

Details please? I'm not seeing this in his vita. I don't think the elite label has anything to do with his education - it has to do with his comments and attitude.

[Margarita]

I'll take Condi or McCain over Barack in a heartbeat. They both have more experience in international affairs than he does, and I doubt I'll ever hear Condi explaining why mid-westerners in Colorado (where I'm from) cling to god and guns when times get tough.

That makes two of us :wave:

[hnooe]

I'll take Condi or McCain over Barack in a heartbeat. They both have more experience in international affairs than he does, and I doubt I'll ever hear Condi explaining why mid-westerners in Colorado (where I'm from) cling to god and guns when times get tough.


Condi Rice has only been one big Photo Op, that is all. 64 percent of Americans like her based soley because of her "peceived proffessional abilites."

She also has a good job propping up the Bush Cheney "lie" machine in Iraq. At least Colin Powell, and others, saw what was going on, and had the good sense to get out of that quagmire.

[full time]

Condi Rice has only been one big Photo Op, that is all. 64 percent of Americans like her based soley because of her "peceived proffessional abilites."

She also has a good job propping up the Bush Cheney "lie" machine in Iraq. At least Colin Powell, and others, saw what was going on, and had the good sense to get out of that quagmire.

The same could be said about 46% of Americans and their love affair with Obama. On second thought, it's hard to perceive much of anything about Obama when he's playing golf and body surfing in Hawaii during an international crisis. Talk about playing into McCain's message about being an elitist celebrity incapable of leading during dangerous times.

[Miss Kitty]

The same could be said about 46% of Americans and their love affair with Obama. On second thought, it's hard to perceive much of anything about Obama when he's playing golf and body surfing in Hawaii during an international crisis. Talk about playing into McCain's message about being an elitist celebrity incapable of leading during dangerous times.

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you expect the two candidates to do in a crisis when we have a sitting President? :idontno:

I am going to run off to Canada...it is too crazy in this country. But, I'll be back! ;-)

[full time]

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you expect the two candidates to do in a crisis when we have a sitting President? :idontno:

I am going to run off to Canada...it is too crazy in this country. But, I'll be back! ;-)

Let's not forget that both are Presidential candidates and sitting US Senators. McCain took the lead very early and nudged the administration towards a tougher stance against Russia (which looks like the correct one). That's what leaders (including US Senators) are supposed to do. Meanwhile, Obama played golf which incidentally was shown on CNN as part of a story about the conflict. Not good for Obama.

[Mango]

I am going to run off to Canada...it is too crazy in this country. But, I'll be back! ;-)

:lol: I bet they rename the country Catnada. :wave:

[Andy A.]

That makes two of us :wave:
Make it three!!!!

[LuciferSam]

Pretty impressive "show and tell" if you ask me.

You have made Condi look even worse by showing the extreme disparity between her credentials and her competence. As a speaker she projects weakness and uncertainty. At best she should be working behind the scenes. I think she's just lazy and disengaged. She would be best suited in a job where she didn't actually have to show up. I don't expect the Connie fanboys to agree with me.

[Edit} Condi and Fred Thompson would make quite a pair!

[30ashopper]

Condi Rice has only been one big Photo Op, that is all. 64 percent of Americans like her based soley because of her "peceived proffessional abilites."

She also has a good job propping up the Bush Cheney "lie" machine in Iraq. At least Colin Powell, and others, saw what was going on, and had the good sense to get out of that quagmire.

Well, hnooe that's your opinion, it's not mine though. It was looking like a quagmire two years ago but not today.

[hnooe]

Well, hnooe that's your opinion, it's not mine though. It was looking like a quagmire two years ago but not today.

Discerned from that response then, at the very least, you are admitting then that there was total disception by Bush /Chenney in getting us involved in the unneccessary war in the first place.

[30ashopper]

Discerned from that response then, at the very least, you are admitting then that there was total disception by Bush /Chenney in getting us involved in the unneccessary war in the first place.

No but I think there was flawed analysis involved though. I agree we never had a basis for invading, and in retrospect, I wish we handn't. Of course, once the decision was made, I also felt we had a responsibiity to leave behind a stable nation. I also think, thanks to Bush's strength as a leader, we will turn bad decisions into good outcome - a stable and prosperous democracy in the middle east has the potential of having a very positive impact on the stability of the region over the long term.

Overall, I'm really really glad Kerry lost in 2004, I hate to think what Iraq would look like today if he'd won that election.

[full time]

You have made Condi look even worse by showing the extreme disparity between her credentials and her competence. As a speaker she projects weakness and uncertainty. At best she should be working behind the scenes. I think she's just lazy and disengaged. She would be best suited in a job where she didn't actually have to show up. I don't expect the Connie fanboys to agree with me.

[Edit} Condi and Fred Thompson would make quite a pair!

Nice! You and your buddy Hnooe2000 have resorted to calling the first African American women Secretary of State of the United States, a token amateur and a lazy, weak sister. You "enlightened" cats look like a couple of bigots. Get a grip.

[LuciferSam]

Nice! You and your buddy Hnooe2000 have resorted to calling the first African American women Secretary of State of the United States, a token amateur and a lazy, weak sister. You "enlightened" cats look like a couple of bigots. Get a grip.

You're the one who raised the issue of race. I have never used such words in my life nor do I even recall hearing that expression before. I think maybe you are the bigot. I'm just pointing out the obvious. Condi's motto should be "I'd rather be buying shoes" (like she was doing during katrina). Get a grip:moon:

[goofer44]

Russia could grab the entire Ukrainian state, and we would do nothing militarily. It would be like Putin intervening in a dispute with Mexico. The U.S. has nothing to gain by wagering everything on this fight. Any Repubs out there want to bring out the domino theory from the mothballs?

Just curious as to your opinion of the push for Ukraine to be admitted to NATO now. Do you think that will happen ??

[hnooe]

Nice! You and your buddy Hnooe2000 have resorted to calling the first African American women Secretary of State of the United States, a token amateur and a lazy, weak sister. You "enlightened" cats look like a couple of bigots. Get a grip.

I believe these may be your own words. I am not a bigoted person. I am a middle aged, gay male and I have a mature, and clear understanding of what comprises bigotry, if my memory serves me.

[full time]

In a match of wits against her, you'd be a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. Calling her "lazy" is code. Where I'm from, you'd be in the soup for that slur.

[hnooe]

In a match of wits against her, you'd be a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. Calling her "lazy" is code. Where I'm from, you'd be in the soup for that slur.

Thanks for the kind words. Have a great weekend!

[Andy A.]

You have made Condi look even worse by showing the extreme disparity between her credentials and her competence. As a speaker she projects weakness and uncertainty. At best she should be working behind the scenes. I think she's just lazy and disengaged. She would be best suited in a job where she didn't actually have to show up. I don't expect the Connie fanboys to agree with me.

[Edit} Condi and Fred Thompson would make quite a pair!
In your eyes, exactly like Madeline Albright, huh?

[LuciferSam]

In a match of wits against her, you'd be a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. Calling her "lazy" is code. Where I'm from, you'd be in the soup for that slur.

Well, this is not between me and Condi or anbody else. This board is not about self-promotion for me at least. You on the other hand seem to have made it your mission but I don't think you've gotten much from your efforts. I mean come on, seizing the opportunity to break out your gansta rap??? :rolling:

[LuciferSam]

In your eyes, exactly like Madeline Albright, huh?

Typical Repub retort. Won't address criticisms but instead criticize a dem in a similar role assuming I'm a fawning fanboy like they are.:rolling: Like I know or care much about Madeline Albright. As if Albrights strengths and weaknesses have anything to do with Condi's. Yeah let's just forget about here and now and change the subject. Silly repubs, when will they ever learn.:roll:

[Andy A.]

Typical Repub retort. Won't address criticisms but instead criticize a dem in a similar role assuming I'm a fawning fanboy like they are.:rolling: Like I know or care much about Madeline Albright. As if Albrights strengths and weaknesses have anything to do with Condi's. Yeah let's just forget about here and now and change the subject. Silly repubs, when will they ever learn.:roll:
Its really hell when someone, anyone, jerks your chain, isn't it? BTW, most of your posts, as far as I'm concerned, are not due a civil response.

[LuciferSam]

Its really hell when someone, anyone, jerks your chain, isn't it? BTW, most of your posts, as far as I'm concerned, are not due a civil response.

All I can say is that when I read a post addressed to me I consider the source and when I respond I consider the destination. In your case the destination doesn't merit much consideration.:biggrin:

[BeachSiO2]

So, it appears that the Georgia issue has been beat to death, any thoughts on Poland, the missile defense shield, and Russia? Word is that Russia won't stand for it, so what happens there?

[full time]

Well, this is not between me and Condi or anbody else. This board is not about self-promotion for me at least. You on the other hand seem to have made it your mission but I don't think you've gotten much from your efforts. I mean come on, seizing the opportunity to break out your gansta rap??? :rolling:

Are you looking for some sympathy?

[LuciferSam]

Are you looking for some sympathy?

Yeah right! :puke:

[Fishfood]

It really is a shame how objectivity is completely lost. "Condi Rice is an incompetent idiot" or "Obama is an incompetent idiot". Both are pretty capable and intelligent people IMO. Condi Rice has to work for GW Bush. If you dress up a pig it's still a pig. I find it funny how the left still cling to this notion that Colin Powell is so much different than Condi Rice, and yet it was he who went to the U.N. with fabricated intelligence to make the case for the Iraq war. What's up with that?

And the charge that Obama is an "elite", as if McCain is a man of the people is just absurd. All these people are elites.

As for the Georgia situation we are in no position to threaten anyone and Russia is acting as we would act. There are oil and natural gas concerns here and Georgia's initial aggression gave Russia the justification it needed to do something. We've done a lot more on less sturdy grounds quite recently if I remember. Besides many of teh people in South Ossestia want to be part of Russia.

When McCain says "we are all Georgians" it makes me LOL. Talk about empty words and flimsy rhetoric- what a stomach churningly corny line that is. Anyway at the end of the day this is not an "international crisis". It has very little bearing on any U.S. citizen. Maybe at some point energy prices will go up a tick. Once again here we are in America revelling in fake outrage. "The nerve of those imperialistic Russians!"

The hypocricy and inconsistent logic that take place in the American political discourse are truly staggerring.

[Miss Kitty]

Here's my .02...go back and read this thread (or almost any political thread) from the beginning . I know it is hard, but if the posters stick to the issue and do not let their egos get involved...well, people like us have a better chance of learning/understanding about an issue. BTW...the politicians and their handlers might try this as well.

"To dream the impossible dream..."

Bravo to fishfood.

[Miss Kitty]

:lol: I bet they rename the country Catnada. :wave:

Well, thanks for the laugh! :floor: