Death today at Seagrove Beach

[ember]

My family and I are vacationing in Seagrove beach. An older gentleman drowned today after not heeding the double red flags. By the time we made it down to the gentleman that passed away he was basically already gone. My sister is a doctor and offered to help with the compressions. They tried reviving him for half an hour before they took him away.

After speaking with someone at Modica, seems that a couple drowned yesterday in Santa Rosa area after being pulled out of the water TWICE PREVIOUSLY by the beach authority. Can someone please tell me why people refuse to understand the severity of the current? That the flags aren't just posted for the amusement of the beach authority?!?! Even AFTER the gentleman died, there was a couple trying to swim in the surf with their kids, ages 4 and up!

I just don't understand why this continues to happen. I am a tourist myself and I still feel like they need to haul these people out of the water and charge them a hefty fine for jeopardizing the lives of these lifeguards who have to go in after them. If we can charge $250 for littering on a highway, they need to start heavily fining people who are going in the water on double red days.

Needless to say it was a somber day at Seagrove beach today. I'm taking it upon myself to call the beach authority if I see one more kid in the water on a double red flag day. This is insane!! :cry:

[30A Skunkape]

Not in SOWAL, but I know for a fact a good Samaritan died in Perdido Key today trying to pull a fatigued swimmer from the surf.:bang:

[seagrovegirl]

My family and I are vacationing in Seagrove beach. An older gentleman drowned today after not heeding the double red flags. By the time we made it down to the gentleman that passed away he was basically already gone. My sister is a doctor and offered to help with the compressions. They tried reviving him for half an hour before they took him away.

After speaking with someone at Modica, seems that a couple drowned yesterday in Santa Rosa area after being pulled out of the water TWICE PREVIOUSLY by the beach authority. Can someone please tell me why people refuse to understand the severity of the current? That the flags aren't just posted for the amusement of the beach authority?!?! Even AFTER the gentleman died, there was a couple trying to swim in the surf with their kids, ages 4 and up!

I just don't understand why this continues to happen. I am a tourist myself and I still feel like they need to haul these people out of the water and charge them a hefty fine for jeopardizing the lives of these lifeguards who have to go in after them. If we can charge $250 for littering on a highway, they need to start heavily fining people who are going in the water on double red days.

Needless to say it was a somber day at Seagrove beach today. I'm taking it upon myself to call the beach authority if I see one more kid in the water on a double red flag day. This is insane!! :cry:

It is my understanding that the gentleman that unfortunately passed away today at the beach, may have been in the water, however, preliminarily, it is thought that he may have died from other causes....ie; heart attack, stroke.....not from drowning.

Tragic none the less........................my heart and prayers go out to his family and any bystanders that witnessed the tragedy.

[Tootsie]

very sad to hear about this.:cry:

[Mango]

Sorry that you had to experience this on your vacation. :(
Thanks to you and your family for being such good samaritans and trying to help.

[ShallowsNole]

The "in the water with double red flags" citations do carry a $100 fine, and there have been a BUNCH of them issued over the last couple of days, judging from the phone calls at work this afternoon. :blink:

[seagrovegirl]

I just responded to your quote about that issue on another thread......I hope the SO is handing out tickets. It will get the word out that asking people to get out of the water are not just empty threats!!!

[Beach Runner]

The closest red flags to where the gentleman drowned are so far away that they just look like decorative flags in front of a condo. At his age I'll bet he couldn't even see the flags, even if he knew what they meant.

Many tourists aren't familiar with the beach flag warning system because there are more private walkovers than public ones. According to a State of Florida website, "To the extent funds are available, warning flags and interpretive signs are provided free of charge to local governments that provide public beach access. The communities that receive the free warning flags and interpretive signs are responsible for the installation, proper use, and maintenance of the flags and signs." The State of Florida has made no provision for these signs to be made available for private walkovers.

[ShallowsNole]

I would hope that all of our rental companies and our owners who personally rent their properties have information about the beach flag warning system either prominently displayed, or among the information that guests receive before or upon arrival. Based on conversations I've had, I believe that most do...at least those who are on my mailing list. But we all know there are a great number who are not in my database, yet...:bang:

And then, a lot of folks don't read the info they get anyway. Most of the people who communicated their feelings to us today thought it was a swim at your own risk situation, not one that you would get a citation and a fine for. :roll:

[seagrovegirl]

I am willing to bet that the peeps that got citations were warned first....at least I hope so.

Most vacationers know about the flag system. It is on brochures they receive, it's posted in their accommodations, it's on beach TV, it's on the public beach accesses, it's a national flag system, not to mention word of mouth and the beach safety personel.

I am all for making the flag system more visible to all visitors and locals too.......any thoughts out there on how to improve the current system????

[Geo]

any thoughts out there on how to improve the current system????

Just a thought-

California was a pioneer and early adopter of enforcing the seat belt law. I read an article that said that of all the campaigns that were used to get folks to buckle up that the ones that were most effective included messaging about the fines. No scare tactics about death or injuries. No crash dummies. Signage and ads that say something like-

Maximum Seatbelt Fine
$200

this was so effective that now they do it for carpool lane, no left/right turn, red light, etc.

SO-

I have known about double reds for a long time. Good stuff out there on flags and riptides. I hear about the drownings in the area more often than I care to. I consider myself informed and a seeker of information-

Today is the first time I heard about the $100 fine...

I was walking on the beach tonight- what a sky tonight- WOW but I digress-
I picked up a piece of trash in the sand and it was a $100 citation written to someone for swimming while the double reds were flying...

We should post a very dry/boring sign that alludes to the fine...

Thoughts?

G

[Doubtfire]

This is very sad, I think I know where this happened, and the flags are a good 600-1000' away. There should be a flag pole at every public access! The private access should be required to be put up by the owners. 1 life might have been saved. Easy to blame the individual, we have no idea what he did or did not know. What we do know is he is dead. The problem is visibility of these flags. If you can not see them, what you do or do not know about them does not matter. Tragic as this is, we need to help make these flags more visible to help prevent another loss and a family grieving. Doubtfire

[30A Skunkape]

I have seen a black flag flown in Mexico when the beach is closed.

[sowalgayboi]

For rental companies and private owners who rent, the last time I was at the TDC getting stuff they have the following:

Magnets for fridges
Stickers for windows and stainless steel fridges
Clings for windows
Pamphlets
Coloring books for kids
Guide to life guarded beaches and the flag system

There are plenty of FREE things to help rental companies and owners out. Remember it's all paid for by the bed tax you are collecting.

[NoHall]

I don't get this.

I live 6 to 8 hours from the nearest beach in any direction, and was raised by a mother who can't swim and a (darling!) good-ol'-boy father who doesn't give a crap about flag systems.

Nevertheless, I can't remember a time when I didn't know about warning flags. I look for them on every beach on every coast, and if I can't see one, I walk a little ways until I can. If I don't find one, I proceed with extreme caution. If the sea is not glassy and smooth, I assume that it's lousy with rip currents, undertow, and dangerous marine life until I can figure otherwise.

I'm not a rocket scientist, and I'm not paranoid. I understand personal responsibility and common sense. I hate to think that I'm unusual in this respect.

[kingfishn]

As rough as the Gulf has been lately (and a TS skimming south of us)...I don't think I would
need two red flags to tell me to stay out of the water. My understanding, correct me if
I'm wrong....well don't need to say that)...but, the FIRST two folks that drowned in PCB
last weekend (with DBL red flags flying) ..were also warned by Bay County Deputies to
get out of the water.

Okay, 'they' are not from here...and I'm not from Hawaii...but...don't think I need 'flags' to
tell me NOT to go jump in 4 to 6 foot waves with a $4.99 float. Don't care if the flags were
3 thousand miles away in Alabama.

Flags...and 'Seymour the Safety Crab'...'ain't' gonna do it. (or is the SeeMore?)

[goodwitch58]

I am willing to bet that the peeps that got citations were warned first....at least I hope so.

Most vacationers know about the flag system. It is on brochures they receive, it's posted in their accommodations, it's on beach TV, it's on the public beach accesses, it's a national flag system, not to mention word of mouth and the beach safety personel.

I am all for making the flag system more visible to all visitors and locals too.......any thoughts out there on how to improve the current system????

I have long thought that SeeMore the Crab is too trival for a serious warning system. It is designed for a child audience. It is a good slogan for the children perhaps; and it seems more of the children are aware of the flag system than the adults; but, it does not do justice to the
seriousness of the rip currents and perhaps does more harm because the adults just think it is something for the kids to pay attention to.

I think the SWFD could commission a very serious warning emblem and market that, along with the notice of the fine. The Beach Service companies could help distribute the materials.

Any local graphic artists willing to design it? Would be a service to the community as well as helping to save our tourists.

[Miss Kitty]

I have long thought that SeeMore the Crab is too trival for a serious warning system. It is designed for a child audience. It is a good slogan for the children perhaps; and it seems more of the children are aware of the flag system than the adults; but, it does not do justice to the
seriousness of the rip currents and perhaps does more harm because the adults just think it is something for the kids to pay attention to.

I think the SWFD could commission a very serious warning emblem and market that, along with the notice of the fine. The Beach Service companies could help distribute the materials.

Any local graphic artists willing to design it? Would be a service to the community as well as helping to save our tourists.

Good thinking! Has anyone researched systems other beach communities use?

[Geo]

I have long thought that SeeMore the Crab is too trival for a serious warning system. It is designed for a child audience. It is a good slogan for the children perhaps; and it seems more of the children are aware of the flag system than the adults; but, it does not do justice to the
seriousness of the rip currents and perhaps does more harm because the adults just think it is something for the kids to pay attention to.

I think the SWFD could commission a very serious warning emblem and market that, along with the notice of the fine. The Beach Service companies could help distribute the materials.

Any local graphic artists willing to design it? Would be a service to the community as well as helping to save our tourists.

GREAT point! I agree.
But I get the impression that the TDC et al don't want skull and crossbones or anything else that scares tourists. The trick is making folks aware without triggering emotion, I guess.

What I hear from everyone who swims with double reds flying is-

"Well those guys over there are swimming so it must be okay"...

This applies to beach tents overnight and just about anything else...

:idontno:

UGH

[Smiling JOe]

Kingfishn, you nailed it! If you needed a sign or flag waved in your face yesterday, to encourage you to stay out of the Gulf, you are a sad case in need of great help.

As for the suggestion of posting signs warning of the fine, signs noting the $200 fine for driving on the beach without a permit don't stop the Cadillac (car) drivers from giving it a whirl, burrying the car up to the frame as soon as they get off the pavement. Some people are just stupid, and you cannot fix stupid. The way that Darwin's theory of Evolution works is that someone may have a stupid brother or father who goes swimming under adverse conditions and drowns. All of the other family members decide that they won't be doing that, and so they get a little smarter, and pass on those genes.

[Smiling JOe]

Geo, you are right that the TDC would rather have a friendly crab than skull and cross bones which I have suggested numerous times. How about the second red flag reading, "Potential Death?" The TDC may not want to scare people off, but don't you think that numerous drownings and even more rescues, is pretty damn scary? I don't run the show, but if I did, I'd rather have a scary flag if it saved lives, than have scary news headlines about people drowning on our beaches. I've said for a long time that the second red flag with the swimmer logo with the bar, doesn't draw attention, no more than signs informing people to stay out of the dunes. It is time that the TDC rethinks that second flag, in a very serious nature. I think most people recognize the skull and cross bones as danger, and most won't confuse it with permission to rape and pillage, or Talk Like a Pirate Day.

[Lady D]

The place we rent has the warning flag system posted on their refrigerator. We had reg flags practically every day when we were there back in May with the no swimming on the flag, not once did we go in the water when the flags were red. I did however to the west of where we stayed see a few people out swimming in the water regardless of the flags. But to the east of us you saw no one in the water, hardly out on the beach.

[Miss Kitty]

Geo, you are right that the TDC would rather have a friendly crab than skull and cross bones which I have suggested numerous times. How about the second red flag reading, "Potential Death?" The TDC may not want to scare people off, but don't you think that numerous drownings and even more rescues, is pretty damn scary? I don't run the show, but if I did, I'd rather have a scary flag if it saved lives, than have scary news headlines about people drowning on our beaches. I've said for a long time that the second red flag with the swimmer logo with the bar, doesn't draw attention, no more than signs informing people to stay out of the dunes. It is time that the TDC rethinks that second flag, in a very serious nature. I think most people recognize the skull and cross bones as danger, and most won't confuse it with permission to rape and pillage, or Talk Like a Pirate Day.

Thinking along these lines...someone could decide that red swimmer flag means....swim and you might get sunburned. I swear I am being serious here.

[seacrestgirl]

This is very sad, I think I know where this happened, and the flags are a good 600-1000' away. There should be a flag pole at every public access! The private access should be required to be put up by the owners. 1 life might have been saved. Easy to blame the individual, we have no idea what he did or did not know. What we do know is he is dead. The problem is visibility of these flags. If you can not see them, what you do or do not know about them does not matter. Tragic as this is, we need to help make these flags more visible to help prevent another loss and a family grieving. Doubtfire

I also agree! Our house is in Seacrest Beach North. We access the beach thru the community across the street. It is considered private access. JUST LAST YEAR did I notice the flag flying way up the beach! I always wondered how one knew the beach conditions, as I have never noticed the flags. It is critical to make these flags noticeable to ALL!!!

[Smiling JOe]

Kitty, that wouldn't surprise me. Here's another possibility. People may see the flag with the cross over the swimmer and think the flag means, "no swimming," when in fact, it is supposed to mean, "Water is closed. Stay out!" One can stand out in the gulf, not swimming, and be swept away by the rip currents.

Someone told me to say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't tell people not to swim, if you really mean stay out of the water, and if you say that you are going to fine people for breaking the rules which may save their life, well do it. I still think that it is impossible to fix stupid.

[scooterbug44]

Thinking along these lines...someone could decide that red swimmer flag means....swim and you might get sunburned. I swear I am being serious here.

At that point Darwinism becomes necessary for the good of the planet! :bang:

SJ, the bazillion signs, leaflets, commercials, etc. all say that the double red flags means "water closed to public."

I am all for informing the public to unknown hazards, but we do need to draw the line. These people have to be minimally intelligent enough to have jobs or wealth to pay for their vacations, operate a motor vehicle or navigate an airport to get here, and must have a rudimentary knowledge of the english language to obtain food or shelter.

We have an internationally standard flag system, printed in 2 languages, with symbols and colors for those who can't read, and have an impressive media, internet, and signage campaign about it.

[goodwitch58]

Kitty, that wouldn't surprise me. Here's another possibility. People may see the flag with the cross over the swimmer and think the flag means, "no swimming," when in fact, it is supposed to mean, "Water is closed. Stay out!" One can stand out in the gulf, not swimming, and be swept away by the rip currents.

Someone told me to say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't tell people not to swim, if you really mean stay out of the water, and if you say that you are going to fine people for breaking the rules which may save their life, well do it. I still think that it is impossible to fix stupid.

S J, I agree...some people will behave irresponsibly regardless of what anyone does.

Having said that, I think the families of these people who have died; the life guards; and the other law enforcement and EMS people who tried to save them would appreciate any additional effort that might have saved them.

I know you can see the pain on the faces of the LEOs who are trying their best to keep people safe--and having them die despite the best efforts of the life guards and law enforcement; not to speak of the "every day" person who often risks his or her life to help.

I would like to see us try a more serious approach to the printed warnings...

[NotDeadYet]

I like the ordinance PCB is working on, to require all walkovers including private ones to post the flag sign and the rip current sign. And I also think we do need more flags. It is not just older eyes that cannot see the flags clearly from quite a few locations, including the site of yesterday's drowning. Often when we have red flag conditions we also have a lot of wind and salt spray and haze on the beach.

[NoHall]

Like Scooterbug said: If you read the signs at the flags, they are clear. Red says, "Swim at your own risk." As a former lifeguard, I translate that to mean that if you're dumb enough to swim out to find the sand bar under a red flag, I'm under no obligation to risk my life to save you. Double red means to stay out of the water. It doesn't say, "No surfing, no deep-water swimming, no wading, no skim-boarding." It says, "Water closed."

My point? People do what they want to do. They interpret the signs to their own convenience and desires, and sometimes their own safety is not their top priority.

I just wish that the lifeguards would pack up and go have lunch on red flag days, just so they're not tempted to save the idiots. That's what "swim at your own risk" means.

[JB]

The closest red flags to where the gentleman drowned are so far away that they just look like decorative flags in front of a condo. At his age I'll bet he couldn't even see the flags, even if he knew what they meant.

Many tourists aren't familiar with the beach flag warning system because there are more private walkovers than public ones. According to a State of Florida website, "To the extent funds are available, warning flags and interpretive signs are provided free of charge to local governments that provide public beach access. The communities that receive the free warning flags and interpretive signs are responsible for the installation, proper use, and maintenance of the flags and signs." The State of Florida has made no provision for these signs to be made available for private walkovers.

BR, you bring up an excellent point. I handful of the larger properties adhere to the flag warning system, but there are stretches all along 30-A where one can walk long distances and not see any flags. I guess this begs the question - whose responsibility is it to warn folks if they are unaware of the danger?

I think we sometimes take it for granted that folks just automatically know when surf conditions are dangerous. Some dude from say, Kansas, just sees big waves and wants to get out there. Next thing you know, someone is dragging him out of the surf.

I certainly don't have the answer, but it's an issue nonetheless.

[NoHall]

Also note the bottom of this sign: Absence of flags does not assure safe waters. Where I'm from, we call that common sense.

I don't like the wording of the red and yellow flags on this one, though. I read those as, "Go ahead and swim. It's more fun today." I can't remember which signs y'all have down there, but I recall seeing them at all the accesses I use.

[scooterbug44]

Where I'm from we call it "sheet for brains" when you ignore warning signs, look at crashing waves, and then continue to wade in/swim! :bang:

Seriously, the flag system is a great one, easy to understand, well maintained, and well publicized. It is also FAR more info/cautionary than you will find at almost any other body of water.

I told Papa Scooterbug that tourists are drowning - his response was "Did they stop using the flag system?"

[NotDeadYet]

I have to say I am disturbed by the tone this thread is taking on. We don't know anything about the man who died yesterday, do we? Certainly there are always going to be stupid people who put others at risk with their stupidity, but there are always also going to be people who make mistakes or act out of ignorance. The Darwinists always seem to think they will never make a fatal mistake. Quite probably none of them will ever drown in SoWal but there are a multitude of other possibilities even for the best and the brightest.

[NoHall]

I have to say I am disturbed by the tone this thread is taking on. We don't know anything about the man who died yesterday, do we? Certainly there are always going to be stupid people who put others at risk with their stupidity, but there are always also going to be people who make mistakes or act out of ignorance. The Darwinists always seem to think they will never make a fatal mistake. Quite probably none of them will ever drown in SoWal but there are a multitude of other possibilities even for the best and the brightest.

I know nothing about the man who died. I was throwing in my $.02 about the clarity of the signs from a non-resident, inlander point of view.

[Miss Kitty]

I know nothing about the man who died. I was throwing in my $.02 about the clarity of the signs from a non-resident, inlander point of view.


Agree...I think most posters are desperate to find a system to keep this from happening!!!!

[MissCritter]

Just wondering, if flags/signs are not posted at a private beach access, and someone drowns, can their next of kin file suit against the private property owner for failure to warn of danger? Do public beaches post to avoid liability as well as protect the public?

[Zebraspots]

I can understand people on vacation at the beach wanting to enjoy the water or cool off, but not swimming on a red/double red day seems like water safety 101.

They can go to one of the many pools, build sandcastles (or dig those #$*@* holes), go kayaking or play in one of the lakes, play in the outfalls, so why are they risking their lives in obviously unsafe water?

Part of learning how to swim is learning about safety, your limits, and how to judge water - and erring on the side of caution and hidden dangers are always emphasized.

What am I missing? :idontno:

[BeachSiO2]

BR, you bring up an excellent point. I handful of the larger properties adhere to the flag warning system, but there are stretches all along 30-A where one can walk long distances and not see any flags.

Where do you mean? My understanding is that outside of the state parks, where they post their own flags, there is a flag pole that can be seen from the water's edge in at least one direction. I will try and track down the flag pole locations as they were selected by previous Code Enforcement Beach Activities Coordinators, Ken Wilde and Lesley Campbell.

[scooterbug44]

One or more flags are clearly visible along the entire stretch of beach.

I was on the beach in Seagrove saturday afternoon and could see 3 flags from my location ............ and so could the idiots who walked down the steps, read the signs, checked the flags, then went in the water! :bang:

[singinchicken]

Not to cast any disparaging remarks, but a lot of the discussion points have trended towards an implied desire for a "Nanny State" status. What ever happened to people being responsible for their own actions? Just because there are not signs visible at every entrance doesn't imply there is any culpable negligence on the county's part. I'm mean really...it's the Gulf of Mexico. There are currents, waves, and big scary fish with teeth. We all know that. It's called implied risk.

I have stepped down from my soapbox, now. You are free to proceed with the "flaming"!

[BeachSiO2]

Where do you mean? My understanding is that outside of the state parks, where they post their own flags, there is a flag pole that can be seen from the water's edge in at least one direction. I will try and track down the flag pole locations as they were selected by previous Code Enforcement Beach Activities Coordinators, Ken Wilde and Lesley Campbell.

Here is the location of the 30 flag poles currently changed by the SWFD (I think :biggrin:):

Flag poles listed from east to west

1.Inlet Beach Regional Beach Access
2.Winston Lane Neighborhood Beach Access
3.Rosemary Beach
4.Sandcliffs Subdivision
5.Sea Breeze Beach Neighborhood Beach Access
6.Watersound
7.Sugar Dunes Neighborhood Beach Access
8.Lakewood Drive Neighborhood Beach Access
9.One Seagrove Place Neighborhood Beach Access
10.Santa Clara Regional Beach Access
11.Seagrove Villas Motel
12.Seaside
13.Van Ness Butler Regional Beach Access
14.Grayton Dunes Regional Beach Access
15.Gulf Trace Subdivision
16.Blue Mountain Regional Beach Access
17.Inn at Blue Mountain
18.Gulfview Heights Regional Beach Access
19.Ed Walline Regional Beach Access
20.Lake Causeway Neighborhood Beach Access
21.Dune Allen Regional Beach Access
22.Beach Highlands Neighborhood Beach Access
23.Tops'l Resort
24.Sandestin
25.Hidden Dunes
26.Norwood Drive Neighborhood Beach Access
27.Edgewater Condominium
28.Seascape East
29.Seascape West
30.Miramar Beach Regional Beach Access

[Beach Runner]

I am happy to report that the gentleman who supposedly died was sitting outside this AM with a bandage on his head while his family was enjoying the pool:clap:.

Again, the flags are too far away to be seen clearly by an older person or someone who is vision impaired, and the county doesn't install signs on private walkovers. I printed out warning signs for inside of our house.

[Miss Kitty]

I am happy to report that the gentleman who supposedly died was sitting outside this AM with a bandage on his head while his family was enjoying the pool:clap:.

Again, the flags are too far away to be seen clearly by an older person or someone who is vision impaired, and the county doesn't install signs on private walkovers. I printed out warning signs for inside of our house.

:eek:...wow, that is a miracle!

[sunspotbaby]

I am so glad to hear this! Thanks for the update BR!

[Landlocked]

:eek:...wow, that is a miracle!

One vacation they'll never forget.. I'm surprised they'd even go near the pool after that experience.

[scooterbug44]

Again, the flags are too far away to be seen clearly by an older person or someone who is vision impaired, and the county doesn't install signs on private walkovers.

I am glad to hear he is okay, but it's even stupider that he had to be rescued when they obviously have access to a pool!

Why don't we just have daily warning placards in Braille or a recurring recording every five minutes TELLING you what the conditions are?

We are seriously approaching the point where we will soon be advocating the posting of signs telling people to remember to inhale and exhale. :roll:

[lennonsdarlin]

The NWF daily news is still reporting him dead....were there two at Seagrove yesterday??? This one had heart surgery scars!?

[Beach Runner]

Maybe there were two incidents. Obviously the family wouldn't be playing in the pool if the grandfather had died.

I was told he slipped out to the beach without anyone knowing it. This is purely speculation, but perhaps there was a little senility involved?

I haven't seen him close enough to notice his chest.

[Booger]

As former Governor Jesse Ventura called it: "Natural Selection"

[NoHall]

Not to cast any disparaging remarks, but a lot of the discussion points have trended towards an implied desire for a "Nanny State" status. What ever happened to people being responsible for their own actions? Just because there are not signs visible at every entrance doesn't imply there is any culpable negligence on the county's part. I'm mean really...it's the Gulf of Mexico. There are currents, waves, and big scary fish with teeth. We all know that. It's called implied risk.

I have stepped down from my soapbox, now. You are free to proceed with the "flaming"!

Don't be crazy. We need signs for everything.

[MissCritter]

Not to cast any disparaging remarks, but a lot of the discussion points have trended towards an implied desire for a "Nanny State" status. What ever happened to people being responsible for their own actions? Just because there are not signs visible at every entrance doesn't imply there is any culpable negligence on the county's part. I'm mean really...it's the Gulf of Mexico. There are currents, waves, and big scary fish with teeth. We all know that. It's called implied risk.

I have stepped down from my soapbox, now. You are free to proceed with the "flaming"!

Please don't misunderstand. In no way did I mean to imply by my question that an owner or the county SHOULD be sued, only that they might be. The "someone else is responsible for my poor choices" attitude seems to be widespread and growing. None of the counties involved has the luxury to decline to rescue those who fail to heed the (multiple) warnings and show little common sense (that should really be re-named; it's all too uncommon these days). I know budgets are already stretched thin. No doubt they are eagerly anticipating the end of swimming season.

[BeachSiO2]

Please don't misunderstand. In no way did I mean to imply by my question that an owner or the county SHOULD be sued, only that they might be. The "someone else is responsible for my poor choices" attitude seems to be widespread and growing. None of the counties involved has the luxury to decline to rescue those who fail to heed the (multiple) warnings and show little common sense (that should really be re-named; it's all too uncommon these days). I know budgets are already stretched thin. No doubt they are eagerly anticipating the end of swimming season.

In Walton County, the lifeguards, signage, flags, flag poles, informational materials, etc. are all paid for out of bed tax collections by the TDC. I know the yearly payout is over $750,000 and I believe it is closer to $1 million for these beach safety activities.

[ShallowsNole]

Day Two at Beach Citation Central...if only I could give a narrative.

My head hurts. :blink:

[seagrovegirl]

Day Two at Beach Citation Central...if only I could give a narrative.

My head hurts. :blink:

I definitely want to hear!!!!! PM me call me or something!!!:clap:

Sorry that head hurts...............:confused:

[jim45]

http://www.waltonsun.com/news/water_1949___article.html/family_victim.html

At approximately 12:15 p.m. on Monday, a man died after wading in the surf near Eastern Lake Road in Seagrove Beach.
Deputy Chief Sean Hughes of the South Walton Fire District said the man "happened to be right at the water's edge and had a cardiac-related issue." Hughes said the death was not related to water conditions, though double red flags were flying.
According to witnesses, the victim, who appeared to be in his 70s or 80s, collapsed in the water shortly after getting in. His cause of death has not yet been confirmed.
Vacationer Ben Kramer said family members of the victim watched from the balcony as a crowd formed and rescuers arrived - they were unaware he was in the water at the time.
"His daughter had already taken him up (from the beach)," she said. "It was strange that he came back down."
Kramer said she grabbed his hat and glasses and searched for his family while two nurses on the beach tended to the victim with CPR.
Nicky Morris, whose family was on vacation from Tennessee, was one of the nurses who happened to be at the scene.
"We were just sitting out and a young guy ran up to see if anyone knew where a lifeguard was," she said. "I helped start CPR on him and my husband ran down (and helped)."
Glen Morris said the man had a scar on his chest that appeared to be from open-heart surgery. He believes the man might have gotten caught in a rip current and then had a heart attack after struggling.
"He had no pulse when he came out of the water," he said. "He was already blue. A family member said he was an excellent swimmer and had been coming to the ocean for most of his life. (For them) it was a big surprise."

[luvthebeach57]

Around noon today, a man was rescued from a rip current in Watersound about 50 yards from where we were sitting. About 6 people were involved in rescuing him. It took about 5 minutes to get him out of the water. He did not need resuscitation, but was not able to get out of the water on his own. He had to lay down at the edge of the water for about 15 minutes. The beach patrol showed up about 15 minutes after he was taken out of the water. There was a red flag flying at the time.

When we arrived at the beach in the morning, I immediately noticed a break in the sandbar, so knew that there was probably a rip current in that spot. Plus, I recognized the characteristic sand cusps and points on the beach. The rip current was located in the cusp area of the beach. Unfortunately, many people don't know what to look for. After this happened, several other people went in the water in the same location. Wouldn't it be wise for the beach patrol to mark this area as a possible rip current?

Thankfully, a drowning was avoided today.

[Judi]

http://www.waltonsun.com/news/water_1949___article.html/family_victim.html

At approximately 12:15 p.m. on Monday, a man died after wading in the surf near Eastern Lake Road in Seagrove Beach.
Deputy Chief Sean Hughes of the South Walton Fire District said the man "happened to be right at the water's edge and had a cardiac-related issue." Hughes said the death was not related to water conditions, though double red flags were flying.
According to witnesses, the victim, who appeared to be in his 70s or 80s, collapsed in the water shortly after getting in. His cause of death has not yet been confirmed.
Vacationer Ben Kramer said family members of the victim watched from the balcony as a crowd formed and rescuers arrived - they were unaware he was in the water at the time.
"His daughter had already taken him up (from the beach)," she said. "It was strange that he came back down."
Kramer said she grabbed his hat and glasses and searched for his family while two nurses on the beach tended to the victim with CPR.
Nicky Morris, whose family was on vacation from Tennessee, was one of the nurses who happened to be at the scene.
"We were just sitting out and a young guy ran up to see if anyone knew where a lifeguard was," she said. "I helped start CPR on him and my husband ran down (and helped)."
Glen Morris said the man had a scar on his chest that appeared to be from open-heart surgery. He believes the man might have gotten caught in a rip current and then had a heart attack after struggling.
"He had no pulse when he came out of the water," he said. "He was already blue. A family member said he was an excellent swimmer and had been coming to the ocean for most of his life. (For them) it was a big surprise."
That is such a sad story. You are absolutely right about the unnecessary risks the life guards are subjected to and I agree there should be a fine for those who ignore the warnings. I hope your efforts in contacting the authorities is successful.

[ozbeachmom]

While being at the beach for the month of June and July, I made many observations. I will just share a few:
1. People with no regard to the flag system. Small children playing in the gulf when it was the roughest I have seen in years. Adults laying up on the beach paying no attention.
2. People leaving their stuff on the beach over night without any tags being placed on the items from the patrol. Storms coming in and blowing the stuff everywhere.
3. People leaving their trash everywhere, when the trash container was right past were they walked to leave.
4. People with no regard for cross walks, and dragging their kids across telling them to hurry. What does that teach a child? Don't use the cross walk, just run out in the street and people will stop, MAYBE!
5. people digging holes, my 7 year old went over and told them that they shouldn't do that because the turtles didn't like it and how he wants the turtles to have a place to lay their eggs. The people just said oh, turtles can get out of our holes. My son walked away and shook his head at them. I went over and told them to please make sure they covered the wholes that my seven year old has been educated on how to be respectful of the beaches and was just sharing what he has been taught. The guy was a jerk and just said we are just digging holes. I also shared that people could really get hurt if they are walking and turn a ankle.

I am sad to see what is happening to our beaches. I for one suggest that we continue to educate people when we see them doing stupid things, digging holes, leaving their crap up, and swimming on double red flag days. I could have sat there and not said anything to these people, but when my seven year old goes over to try to talk to some one and educate them and they blow him off, I was mad.

Okay, I am done ranting.......... it just makes me sad sOme of the things I saw on this last trip.

[sowalgayboi]

I'm really to the point of looking forward to complaining about slow moving buicks and price checks on 10 cent items at Publix. :wub::roll:

[ckhagen]

I'm really to the point of looking forward to complaining about slow moving buicks and price checks on 10 cent items at Publix. :wub::roll:

I've been thinking the same thing. Usually, I absolutely crave the summer, but this year I can hardly wait for it to be over...

[Miss Kitty]

thank you ozmom for your observations. okay, what has changed and when did it happen? has this been a gradual change in behaviour or is eveyone just seeing new and worse behaviour this summer? seems to me that every summer brings a new problem and that one problem is not addressed (trash)...then the next summer comes and there is a new something (things left on beach overnight) and next summer (holes being dug)....etc.

How about someone start a list of issues and to the right list the laws on the book that cover it or possible solutions.

Please don't let scooterb see this. :bang:

[goodwitch58]

This year is about as bad as I've ever seen it. What bothers me the most are the parents who let little children play in the rough surf while they sleep under a tent --I have witnessed so many unsafe situations with the children...these children 2 and 3 years of age, could be washed away in a rip current and the parents wouldn't even know they were gone.

What are these folks thinking?:(

[seagrovegirl]

This year is about as bad as I've ever seen it. What bothers me the most are the parents who let little children play in the rough surf while they sleep under a tent --I have witnessed so many unsafe situations with the children...these children 2 and 3 years of age, could be washed away in a rip current and the parents wouldn't even know they were gone.

What are these folks thinking?:(

The vacation fairy will protect them...............:bang:

[30A Skunkape]

I'm really to the point of looking forward to complaining about slow moving buicks and price checks on 10 cent items at Publix. :wub::roll:

You love snowbirds, and you know it:cool:

[30A Skunkape]

I've been thinking the same thing. Usually, I absolutely crave the summer, but this year I can hardly wait for it to be over...

true dat:(

[scooterbug44]

People misbehave because there are no consequences! Enforce the hail out of the "no items on the beach" and make up the budget shortfall writing tickets for going in the water on red flag days. When people complain tell them "this is the law". No exceptions, no warnings, no whining.

What exactly are we afraid of - that the national media will jump on a story that we are (gasp) actually enforcing basic laws to protect an endangered species, keep the beaches clean and safe, and prevent drowning deaths?

Don't vacation in Sowal, they try to keep you from drowning! Story at 11! :roll:

Yesterday I jokingly made the ridonkulous suggestion that we start having a PA system that broadcasts announcements about beach conditions for those who can't properly see the flags........................then saw a clip on the evening news of the PC police doing just that!

The video shows a police officer driving down the beach in an official pick-up, broadcasting "it is a double red flag day, stay out of the water" over and over. Her frustrated comment of "they just don't listen" before she stops the truck to rescue someone REALLY sums the issue up for me!

[InletBchOwnr]

Guess the rant continues for me....back here for the fourth time this year (since december 31st, 2007) and am appalled to note over and over man's ignorance, stupidty, hostility towards anyone with an opinion other than their own. Once again we watch as people dig holes from boredom, competition, ignorance; throw their trash down and walkaway as if the beach fairy will just clean it up, ignore flags, conditions, common sense. Maybe it is a vacation mode one reaches away from home. Maybe it is just a mean streak that says "I am independent and I can do any damn thing I wanna at any damn time I wanna", or it is a mask behind which fear of anything threatening to individual "freedoms" hide. Not to get too philosophical. Yesterday I picked up four plastic jugs and two full bags of trash on my walk from the Powell Lake outlet to our beach area at Inlet Beach and just had to walk away from somethings I saw or have my blood pressure surge to nasty levels. It, the flagrant disregard for "rules", isn't restricted to class, education, regional or religious differences, race, color or creed. It is pervasive. So I really believe it is education. Whatever is being done to educate the vacationing public isn't done thoroughly or completely or constantly enough. It will take the flags, posted warnings, printed materials, refrigerator magnets, radio commercials, TV spots, banners, lifeguard warnings, sheriff and other officials patrolling the beaches verbal and PA warnings, for years from January through December. Require all rental agents and companys to provide the warning materials for each rental unit/home/condo or face fines. Issue citations and demand ID for any issuance even if the recipient of msuch a warning must return to their unit for an ID. Follow-up on all citations. Get tough. As far as the fear of local government being seen as tough on beach violations, it reminds me of the early scenes in "Jaws" when the local officials fear posting beach closed signs or shark warning signs for fear of loosing tourist income.

Anyway, I shed a tear or two when I think about the days when the sands would sing when you walked, when the small bits of trash were almost unnoticeable, when the clusters of beach umbrellas disappeared each night, when one could walk the beach at night wiout a flashlight on a good moon and not step in a hole and sprain an ankle. Maybe we can return to those days if everyone here becomes an activist and demand visitors behave according to local laws and rules. That's my take.

[DavidD]

I know that when my family is going to go the the beach, we actively look for flags or research the situation before we go. I also know that there are lots of stickers, magnets, pamphlets, ect. out there with the flag system to educate the public. I think that the problem is that there are many visitors who don't know the systems, or moreover, don't want to know the system. They spend a lot of money to visit for a few days and they really don't want someone telling them that they can't/shouldn't go in the water. Unfortunately you can't save someone from themselves, but I fear for their children who trust their parents for their well being. I agree with Goodwitch 58 that for the good of the public, we should have a more aggressive campaign, something less harsh than "When 2 Reds Fly - People Die" (with some strong simple graphics). This is probably too harsh I know, but honestly, people need to be shocked into awareness sometimes, a visual slap. But I also agree with Geo that the TDC is trying to convince people to visit, not scare them away, so they would not likely help a fear based campaign.
I would gladly offer to design such a poster, or series, but I still don't know if it would work, or if its the right direction to help this serious situation.
It is all very sad.

[goodwitch58]

I know that when my family is going to go the the beach, we actively look for flags or research the situation before we go. I also know that there are lots of stickers, magnets, pamphlets, ect. out there with the flag system to educate the public. I think that the problem is that there are many visitors who don't know the systems, or moreover, don't want to know the system. They spend a lot of money to visit for a few days and they really don't want someone telling them that they can't/shouldn't go in the water. Unfortunately you can't save someone from themselves, but I fear for their children who trust their parents for their well being. I agree with Goodwitch 58 that for the good of the public, we should have a more aggressive campaign, something less harsh than "When 2 Reds Fly - People Die" (with some strong simple graphics). This is probably too harsh I know, but honestly, people need to be shocked into awareness sometimes, a visual slap. But I also agree with Geo that the TDC is trying to convince people to visit, not scare them away, so they would not likely help a fear based campaign.
I would gladly offer to design such a poster, or series, but I still don't know if it would work, or if its the right direction to help this serious situation.
It is all very sad.

Thanks for your comments and your offer. There certainly must be a compromise place: where citizens are informed and thereby can better take the proper precautions; and fear that keeps tourists away from the beach.

As I said, the SeeMore campaign works for the audience it is designed for: the children. Why not have an adult version. It won't influence the behavior of all the people--but a well designed campaign would make a difference.

Let's get a group together and see if we can put together a campaign that the TDC and the BCC won't object to...if we saved one life it would be worth it, wouldn't it? Especially if that life was a small child. Perhaps we can get support from the SWFD and the Sheriff's Office.

I would think the publicity about people dying on our beaches would be more harmful than a campaign designed to save people.

[scooterbug44]

I actually like "when red flags fly people die".

People just don't get that it's dangerous/serious - they think we're being overprotective and keeping them from enjoying their vacation.

[Landlocked]

Short of razor wire at the water line, I don't think anything is going to keep some of these folks out of the water.

Just like speed limit signs, people just ignore them.

[DavidD]

I think that more adults drown every year than children at our beaches.
I stand with my offer to donate my design services if I can help. Just let me know.
Even one saved life is worth it.

[NoHall]

Short of razor wire at the water line, I don't think anything is going to keep some of these folks out of the water.

Just like speed limit signs, people just ignore them.

I agree, except that speeding endangers others. Swimming in dangerous waters only endangers yourself.

I'm usually a compassionate person, but I don't think that folks over the age of 18 should be ticked or rescued when reds are flying. Warn them to get out and enforce the part about swimming at your own risk. Lifeguards should not be asked to risk their lives over someone else's willful disregard of dangerous conditions. Let natural selection do its work.

As for the parents who allow their children to swim (or jaywalk!), they shouldn't be ticketed; they should be arrested for child endangerment. :angry:

[sunspotbaby]

I agree, except that speeding endangers others. Swimming in dangerous waters only endangers yourself.

I'm usually a compassionate person, but I don't think that folks over the age of 18 should be ticked or rescued when reds are flying. Warn them to get out and enforce the part about swimming at your own risk. Lifeguards should not be asked to risk their lives over someone else's willful disregard of dangerous conditions. Let natural selection do its work.

As for the parents who allow their children to swim (or jaywalk!), they shouldn't be ticketed; they should be arrested for child endangerment. :angry:

That was my thinking too. We're not all stopping the spring breakers in the stores to tell them how dangerous drinking and driving is while they're here . There are safety campaigns for that, yes. There are safety campaigns here too for beach safety. Maybe they should be improved or updated. There are warnings everywhere though, and at some point individual responsibility should be left to the individual.

[scooterbug44]

More and more I am feeling that there is more than enough signage etc. to create awareness - folks are just not cooperating/following the rules.

[DavidD]

Like I said- you can't often save someone from themself.

[beachmouse]

I'm usually a compassionate person, but I don't think that folks over the age of 18 should be ticked or rescued when reds are flying. Warn them to get out and enforce the part about swimming at your own risk. Lifeguards should not be asked to risk their lives over someone else's willful disregard of dangerous conditions. Let natural selection do its work.


I'm all for rescuing them because I feel like it's the right thing to do. However, I'd love to see them take a page from what some of the SOs Up North do during ice fishing season, and say that you will be billed for the full cost of rescue if a lifeguard, firefighter, or LEO goes in after you on a double red day, and that the minimum bill you will receive for services is high enough to count, say starting at $2500 or something like that.

[NoHall]

I'm all for rescuing them because I feel like it's the right thing to do. However, I'd love to see them take a page from what some of the SOs Up North do during ice fishing season, and say that you will be billed for the full cost of rescue if a lifeguard, firefighter, or LEO goes in after you on a double red day, and that the minimum bill you will receive for services is high enough to count, say starting at $2500 or something like that.

I like the idea of billing them, but there is more at stake here than money for services rendered. I was a lifeguard in my previous life for about a decade, and I worked at pools, waterparks, a large lake in Georgia, and a small lake in central Florida.

When someone is drowning, it is automatically a dangerous situation, but most of the time it's less dangerous for the rescuer than it is for the rescue-ee. I was in a couple of situations where there were exceptions to that--sudden electrical storms where small boats (catamarans, paddleboats) were stranded on the lake and had to be pulled in (in central Florida, add that to Gator-inhabited water,) disentangling stranded swimmers from a rapids-type water slide while other swimmers are still coming down on you, intoxicated and belligerent swimmers, a chlorine leak at a pool, etc.

But I was never a beach lifeguard, and this ain't Baywatch. A wave pool can be turned off (and was turned off many times when swimmers got in trouble.) But an undertow or rip tide that can carry one swimmer away can carry a rescuer away, too. I do not think it's the right thing to send some kid who's making less than he would at Starbucks to risk his life. Greenroomsurfer is good about rescuing folks, too, and I'm going to be mighty upset when he tears his back up, gets whacked in the head by a drunk and drowns, gets bitten by a shark, etc. for his trouble. It's like telling someone to evacuate for a flood or hurricane--if you choose to stay, you can't expect someone to risk life and limb trying to save you.

[sowalgayboi]

I've been thinking the same thing. Usually, I absolutely crave the summer, but this year I can hardly wait for it to be over...

True, but we'll just be biatching come February.

You love snowbirds, and you know it:cool:

:whack:

Actually now that I don't work with them they don't have nearly the bone chilling, grey hair causing, effect they used to.

P.S. I'm stopping by for my free blood sugar monitor. ;-)

[seagrovegirl]

I agree, except that speeding endangers others. Swimming in dangerous waters only endangers yourself.

I'm usually a compassionate person, but I don't think that folks over the age of 18 should be ticked or rescued when reds are flying. Warn them to get out and enforce the part about swimming at your own risk. Lifeguards should not be asked to risk their lives over someone else's willful disregard of dangerous conditions. Let natural selection do its work.

As for the parents who allow their children to swim (or jaywalk!), they shouldn't be ticketed; they should be arrested for child endangerment. :angry:

Unless the rescuer drowns saving the first victim, as what usually happens. That's when bystanders become victims because of selfless thinking people.

[scooterbug44]

I intentionally left the beach saturday because I didn't want to drown/get in trouble saving the nearby idiots. Obviously I wouldn't be able to just stand idly by while they drowned, so I simply removed myself from the situation for MY safety.

[Beach Runner]

My previous post was incorrect. There was more than one older gentleman in that group. The one seen yesterday was obviously not the decreased. Unfortunately one of them was the one who died at Seagrove Beach on Monday. It was so sad hearing the children weeping and seeing the grief on the family's faces.

I apologize for the misinformation.

[NoHall]

Unless the rescuer drowns saving the first victim, as what usually happens. That's when bystanders become victims because of selfless thinking people.

My point is that if you are speeding, you can lose control and hit someone else. You run the risk of having an accident that injures or kills someone who had no part in your decision to drive too fast. If you choose to swim in dangerous water, you aren't going to run off the road and kill someone who was just passing by on the way to Sunday School.

In the water, the rescuer endangers himself, albeit willingly and unselfishly, when he enters the water to rescue someone. Maybe he didn't get up that morning with plans to pull someone out of the water, but at some point he made a conscious decision to put himself in harm's way.

[seagrovegirl]

My point is that if you are speeding, you can lose control and hit someone else. You run the risk of having an accident that injures or kills someone who had no part in your decision to drive too fast. If you choose to swim in dangerous water, you aren't going to run off the road and kill someone who was just passing by on the way to Sunday School.

In the water, the rescuer endangers himself, albeit willingly and unselfishly, when he enters the water to rescue someone. Maybe he didn't get up that morning with plans to pull someone out of the water, but at some point he made a conscious decision to put himself in harm's way.

Most people I know will not stand by and watch someone drown, they wouldn't be able to live with themselves.....so yes....the person in the water during a double red flag is endangering the public, which is well documented in Walton Co. by the amount of rescuers/civilians who drown trying to help.

[NoHall]

Most people I know will not stand by and watch someone drown, they wouldn't be able to live with themselves.....so yes....the person in the water during a double red flag is endangering the public, which is well documented in Walton Co. by the amount of rescuers/civilians who drown trying to help.

I understand that (and agree--I wouldn't be able to stop myself, either) but it is still a conscious decision. It's not like someone standing on the beach with a scatter-gun, though.

[BeachSiO2]

Are any of us REALLY sure we would go in (excluding lifeguards and LEO's who may be reading this)? What about if it was one of those situations where it was a drunk, combative person that had already been told by the cops to stay out of the water more than once? I am not saying I wouldn't, but there are definitely times that I would not rush headlong into that type of situation. It reminds me of the old saying by my mom, would you jump off the bridge if Billy did?

[scooterbug44]

Quite sure I couldn't just stand there and let someone die.

It's easy to SAY you would or that you'd be logical about it, but in reality you just act, you don't mull it over - that's why most training focuses on repetition - so that your automatic action is the correct one.

[NoHall]

I know I couldn't either, but I'm also quite sure that it doesn't constitute public endangerment. That's where the rescuer has to have the personal responsibility to say that he went in because of his own conscience, not because the swimmer was endangering him.

There's a cool story (http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/dolphins-save-surfer-from-shark-attack/article77866-1.html) about a guy who helped another swimmer in a shark attack. I was particularly struck by this part, which seems pertinent here:

Joe Jansen had paddled only 15 feet toward shore in his panic when he decided he couldn't live with himself if he didn't go back. He entered the pool of bloody water, half expecting to be attacked. "Quick! Get on your board!" he shouted to Endris. "C'mon, pal -- it's behind you. Let's go!"

[BeachSiO2]

I understand your point completely, and don't disagree. It's just there has been a fair amount of venom (and discussion of darwinism) that has come out on the thread about what should or should not be done to people who go in the water. So I thought I would throw out the ethical dilemma question.

[beachmouse]

Are any of us REALLY sure we would go in (excluding lifeguards and LEO's who may be reading this)?

I would. But then I'm a strong open water swimmer, and was a pool lifeguard to help pay for college back when. Rule #1- take something with you that floats that you can also extend to the rescuee- rescue can, ring, skimboard, floaty raft... The victim comes into contact with the floaty and you're not putting yourself into a position where they can panic and drag you under.

[TreeFrog]

I intentionally left the beach saturday because I didn't want to drown/get in trouble saving the nearby idiots. Obviously I wouldn't be able to just stand idly by while they drowned, so I simply removed myself from the situation for MY safety.

Have done exactly the same, for the same reasons, more than once.

[sowalgayboi]

I would. But then I'm a strong open water swimmer, and was a pool lifeguard to help pay for college back when. Rule #1- take something with you that floats that you can also extend to the rescuee- rescue can, ring, skimboard, floaty raft... The victim comes into contact with the floaty and you're not putting yourself into a position where they can panic and drag you under.

All well and good unless it says this.

http://www.lawrencejoseph.org/3lifesaver.jpg

[SSGA]

Our place is on the far west end of PCB and since there are so many public accesses, the flags are always easy to see and the beach patrol PA alert system has been in full swing. However, the problem I've noticed SEVERAL times this summer is parents of teenagers letting their kids flaunt a)the flags and b)the beach patrol.

For example, I recently saw some teenagers out in double red flags, with their parents watching from the shore. The beach patrol came by, and first tried to whistle them in. When that didn't work, he had to get out of the truck, go down to the water's edge and use some strong language to get them in. He then had a talk with the parents and explained about the law and the deaths that had happened THAT VERY DAY. As soon as he drove off, the kids were right back in without a word from the parents.

What the #$%%^ do people think? That encounter was so wrong on so many levels.....

I have even heard people say that if they have paid their money for a week, they are going in the water no matter what. As if their life or their child's life or a rescuer's life is worth less than what they paid for their vacation.

[sowalgayboi]

Our place is on the far west end of PCB and since there are so many public accesses, the flags are always easy to see and the beach patrol PA alert system has been in full swing. However, the problem I've noticed SEVERAL times this summer is parents of teenagers letting their kids flaunt a)the flags and b)the beach patrol.

For example, I recently saw some teenagers out in double red flags, with their parents watching from the shore. The beach patrol came by, and first tried to whistle them in. When that didn't work, he had to get out of the truck, go down to the water's edge and use some strong language to get them in. He then had a talk with the parents and explained about the law and the deaths that had happened THAT VERY DAY. As soon as he drove off, the kids were right back in without a word from the parents.

What the #$%%^ do people think? That encounter was so wrong on so many levels.....

I have even heard people say that if they have paid their money for a week, they are going in the water no matter what. As if their life or their child's life or a rescuer's life is worth less than what they paid for their vacation.

Roomier car on the ride home? :idontno:

[Vandylaw]

...seems to fit right in with what many of you are saying (This was before my eyes had been opened to the South Walton experience and before we bought a house in Miramar, so I hope the "Destin" reference is okay here.)

This was published in 7/20/2005

One can offer only so much advice

By C. Alan Nicholson Guest commentary


Save yourself the time, trouble and expense, Destin and Okaloosa residents. Don’t waste another ounce of energy pleading for public education about the potential dangers of the Gulf. They’ve been informed, warned and cajoled, repeatedly.
We have all heard it; some just will not listen.
These select individuals seem to consider themselves immune from the forces of nature and laws of man that apply to us mere mortals. These people cannot be reached despite your considerable efforts to save them from themselves.
I’ve been taking my family to Destin for 20 years. We love Destin. We love the beach. We want to speed every available moment there, but like most people, we realize that on some days the potential for injury or worse is just too great to justify the risk of playing in the surf.
Reasonable people probably did not need the “double red” flags advising that the water was closed. The double red wasn’t intended for reasonable people really; it was for those too irresponsible to take proper care for themselves and their children. Perhaps the force of law would elicit compliance with what is just common sense to most of us.
Good idea in theory.
It isn’t working as well as had been hoped. In the two days after Tropical Storm Cindy blew through, the beaches flew the double red flags. Nevertheless, adults and an alarming number of young kids poured into the water. The beach patrol, which had diligently and commendably gone person to person on July 4 to hand out cards explaining the significance of the flags, spent the two days post-Cindy vainly trying to enforce the law that they had just explained person-to-person and face-to-face.
At the stretch of beach where my family was, the patrol whistled at and cautioned the same violators over and over both days. As soon as the familiar red ATVs rolled on, the annoyed violators returned to the waves in their seeming relentless zeal to become a statistic.
Destin/Okaloosa you’ve tried. It’s a shame that the next preventable drowning will prompt calls for you to do more to “educate the public.” It won’t be your fault, but it’s a lot easier to call for more “public education” than it is to criticize the “victim” or the grieving parents of the “victim” upon whom the responsibility properly rests.
P.S. I realize that this issue pales in comparison to the concerns you have as I write this on Saturday afternoon, July 9.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you as you face the uncertainty of Dennis. We left our vacation a day early to return the relative safety of Atlanta, but we are keenly aware of what the next 24 hours may hold for you, and we wish you the very best possible outcome.
C. Alan Nicholson is a resident of Marietta, Ga.

[Beach Runner]

Could you see the flags if you were 80? This photo is taken from the area where the victim was sitting. These are the closest flags.

http://sowal.com/bb/picture.php?albumid=215&pictureid=2260

[TreeFrog]

At the popular Ramsgate walkover, which serves a whole lot of rentals, including the ever-popular Summers Edge, it is nearly impossible to see a flag to either the east or west. Given the number of beachgoers, that walkover needs its own flag. It is maybe 200 yards east of the site of BR's photo.

[DuneLaker]

Liked your article. I am shocked how some go in the water with dangerous water conditions. I grew up here before flags. Some days, you just knew not to go in. How anyone would go in or let their children go in with double red flags flying is beyond reason. Especially with all the coastal dune lakes that have outfalls that could serve as a safe alternative to a natural beach swimming experience until the waves and tides calmed down. I would also like to say I'm proud of you for now knowing the difference between SoWal and Destin.

[kingfishn]

Revisiting this thread (and not reading ALL the comments)...you can stop (IMHO) at Smiling
JOe 's statement...(ref..8/05/08...0803 hours)....and, I quote..."...you cannot fix stupid..."

and...with his permission...I'm gonna use that, I'm sure, in a sentence tomorrow....

Love y'all,
bye
NK

[Paula]

Out of curiosity, have the drownings usually been adult men? It seems so to me. So, it could be that men go in to save people who are in the water despite the red flags or that men are more likely to feel as though they can resist the pull of rip tides because of their size. If there is a pattern that it's mostly adult men who have been drowning, then they may need special focus in efforts to prevent people from going into the ocean on red flag days. For example, let them know that weight/gender/strength does not prevent drownings from rip tide. Let them know the statistics of the gender/ages of the people who drown to dispel any myths that strong men may not drown.

[seagrovegirl]

A couple of years ago, 2 locals, both very athletic and strong swimmers, saved a drowning victim, unfotunately, one of the rescuers died/drowned.

I like your suggestion; perhaps a pic of the deseased rescuers at the flag poles would help.

[Paula]

A couple of years ago, 2 locals, both very athletic and strong swimmers, saved a drowning victim, unfotunately, one of the rescuers died/drowned.

I like your suggestion; perhaps a pic of the deseased rescuers at the flag poles would help.


I remember a father and uncle drowning a few years ago (I think it was at Grayton Beach) after they saved the son/nephew (or some variation of this story).

I just keep thinking that the pattern is that those who drown are usually healthy adult men and specially targeting this group would be useful. And women and children would think that if healthy grown men drown in riptides that it's definitely not safe for them either.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the water in SoWal may not be more dangerous than elsewhere, but SoWal does a better job of letting people know the water can be dangerous at times (with the flag system and warnings). I was at Sanibel (great place) this winter and asked locals if they have rip tides, sharks, etc. and they said they did - but no warning flags.

[Destiny]

We were visiting some friends in PCB in July when 3 people drown within 2 weeks. On one day alone over 20 people were pulled from the water. :( :( :bang: :bang: :idontno:
I hope visitors and residents are paying attention to the current conditions with Gustav. Life is precious.

[Beach Runner]

I've posted the flag info by the door to the pool area, on the fridge, and then everytime a rental guest boots the computer or opens the browser, it opens my rental home page which reminds them about the flags and "Leave No Trace."

I can't think of anything else I can do to educate my guests. :idontno:

[sowalgayboi]

We were visiting some friends in PCB in July when 3 people drown within 2 weeks. On one day alone over 20 people were pulled from the water. :( :( :bang: :bang: :idontno:
I hope visitors and residents are paying attention to the current conditions with Gustav. Life is precious.

They better pay very close attention, nobody's going in right now to rescue them. I'm not sure about tomorrow, but today the water was closed and it was made very clear that no one was going after idiots in the surf.