Beach renourishment

[greenroomsurfer]

Here is a shorty from a Friend of mine for you greedy people out there.:bang:http://youtube.com/watch?v=mFUACSvIxks

[JustaLocal]

Here is a shorty from a Friend of mine for you greedy people out there.:bang:

Nice video.

I disagree that beach renourishment caused the private beach signs. There are many now on beaches that have not been renourished. The connection is incidental.

[Miss Kitty]

:shock:...the protec tube is back. I have to go reread the letter, but WC has brought it back for reconsideration because the ban was lifted. I hope now that more time has passed and some people have been educated, it will not pass the HOA this time around. Many people voted out of fear. It was going to be a $2,000 assessment.

[Shockleysprings]

Not only is beach restoration a farce, if beaches are privatized, the cost of restoration should be paid by the owners, not public funding. Once they add up the actual cost of restoration views would rapidly change. Vote, Run for office, if you don't you will get what is dished out.

[beacheart]

Please explain how being in favor of beach restoration makes one greedy?

The one point I agree with is the trash on the beach and the tents,etc being left out as the pictures showed.

How are the beaches being made private? Anyone can use the beach. They can walk anywhere they want. People who have homes, condo's or hotels on the beach need the space in front of their property for their guests. They are the ones who bear the largest tax burden. Why is that wrong? There are plenty of very nice public beach accesses all along 30-A. In addition to the public accesses there are deeded beach accesses that are plentiful. I think it is infringing on others' rights to think- well I will just lug my stuff down the beach a way where there are less people and spread out in front of someone's house. Then the person who owns the house or the people renting the house want to spend some time on the beach but there is no room.

Beach restoration along the 30-A corridor is absolutely needed. It will benefit everyone. The consequences for not restoring the beaches will impact just about everybody in sowalton. One large storm will prove that.

[scooterbug44]

The beaches are being "made private" by beachfront owners posting signs, hiring security, and calling the Sheriff to arrest innocent vacationers. It is NOT because there isn't room for everyone on the beach, it's because they didn't learn how to share in kindegarten and don't want anyone on "their" sand!

IMO the nicest sections of beach in Sowal are the ones that DIDN'T get renourished. Mother Nature does a much better job of "fixing" the beaches than we do despite wasting millions on it.

All a large storm will prove is that we need to leave to the beaches alone and some houses were built in the wrong place!

[Smiling JOe]

I don't see how adding more sand to the beach in all of SoWal will benefit everyone. In fact, the best beach is in front of the State Parks, where they did nothing other than plant Sea Oats. The difference is the dunes are cycled through in the State Parks, and rebuilt by nature over time, and in other places, people have built on top of the ever-shifting dune system. Adding more sand to extend the beach won't stop waves from breaking against the dunes or seawalls during a big storm when the storm surge is higher than the beach. That math simply doesn't add up, in my opinion. We just live in a "right now" kind of Country. -- We want everything right now.

[Smiling JOe]

Go to the SoWal library and walk to the sitting area to the right of the front desk (if you are facing the desk), and look at the old photo of Grayton Beach, hanging on the wall. I'm not sure when it was taken, but there weren't Gulf Front homes. In fact, there were only a couple of homes built seaward of what is now the Red Bar. In the area known as "New Grayton," there were only sand dunes. People knew better, but at some point in time, someone built, and everyone else followed the dumb masses (don't read that too fast).

[beacheart]

Okay I get it now. All beachfront owners sorta deserve to be eliminated because they built there in the first place - even though at the time there was about 150' more beach. Also it is wrong for them to enjoy a private spot in front of their property because the public and deeded beach accesses are not sufficient for the innocent vacationers. By the way some of those innocent vacationers are renting beachfront houses so they can have a more private spot for their stay. I guess that is wrong too. I don't think this issue is just about the "innocent vacationers" - I think it is about an idealogy.
By the way the dunes on the military property between Destin and Ft. Walton are very different from the way they were pre Ivan and Dennis. There are no houses there.
Does anyone have the figures on the number of beachfront owners who have had someone arrested and who hire security?

[Smiling JOe]

beacheart, help me understand how adding more sand to extend the beach helps a gulf front homeowner. I don't see how. With a decent size storm, like any of the ones which hit us in 2004-2005, the beach would be covered with sweeping water, hitting at the dunes or seawalls. A large storm will still remove that additional sand used to widen the beach, in my opinion. Do you see that differently?

[greenroomsurfer]

Here is another video for the non-believers. http://www.cccturtle.org/higherground.php

[BeachSiO2]

beacheart, help me understand how adding more sand to extend the beach helps a gulf front homeowner. I don't see how. With a decent size storm, like any of the ones which hit us in 2004-2005, the beach would be covered with sweeping water, hitting at the dunes or seawalls. A large storm will still remove that additional sand used to widen the beach, in my opinion. Do you see that differently?

Let me just chime in on the scientific side of here. Beach restoration that was conducted in Walton County is not just about wider beaches. It also involves the construction of an additional dune, and the raising of the existing beach in a stair stepped formation. In short, there is about 80 cubic yards of sand placed per foot of beach. Here is how all three sections of the project will function prior to and during a storm.

First, we must remember that a wave will typically break when it reaches water depths that are about 1.28 times it's size. In other words, in 1 foot of water the maximum wave a size can be is .78 feet. Keep in mind that the majority of the energy of a wave is released when a wave breaks. On to the three parts and I have included the actual beach design graphic for the western portion of Grayton Beach where the four or five houses are so that it may become more clear.

http://www.sowal.com/bb/gallery/files/3/0/8/2/r-71_beach_design.jpg

How does a wider beach help? First, after a project is constructed a portion of the placed sand immediately begins to move offshore and decrease the offshore water depths. This offshore equilibration is expected and accounted for and is included in project design, note the location of the "equilibrium grade on the graphic. Some of this sand will migrate all the way out to the sand bars thus raising their height (decreasing water depth) and now larger waves break further from shore on that sand bar. For waves that make it to the beach, that beach is now 75-100 feet further offshore, thus reducing the amount of wave energy that makes its way to the higher areas of the beach and dunes.

How does a higher beach help? This is where the storm surge is mitigated. The constructed beach elevation will be about 3-5 feet higher than the beach in 2007 as you can see in the attached figure, and in the offshore areas, even more. In the likelihood of an increased water level from storm surge, the beach will be about 6 feet higher than a normal high tide. So storm surge will have to be higher than +6 just to overtop the beach and get close to the upland area. But in reality it will have to be even higher to be able to form a wave. So, what once could be overtopped with about a 4-5 foot storm surge will now take 6-7, and 8 feet to reach the dune. We did not have storm surges of this size in either 2004 or 2005.

How does the dune help? In the possibility that a storm reach sustained storm surge levels of more than 8 feet than the constructed dune will be impacted. that dune will be approximately 20-25 feet wide at the top, and about 35-40 feet in width total. Plus it's elevation will be about 12 feet higher than mean high tide elevation. This is designed to protect the toe of the existing dunes. Currently, there is only a little toe protection in many areas and once the water hits the toe of the current dune it can wash out the top.

So, yes a storm can come along and impact an area and impact these types of projects. This is no different than a levee system. A level of risk is identified and then a design is developed based on protection afforded. This design is designed to mitigate impacts for a Category three hurricane. In other words, this design would be greatly impacted but it would take a storm greater than a Cat 3 to remove more sand than was placed. This was further exemplified in Pensacola with Ivan in 2004. Based on post-storm measurements, there was more sand left within the dune, beach and nearshore area after Ivan than when they built the project. The Walton County designs are very similar.

Since SJ has started giving .03, I am giving a buffalo nickel. :biggrin:

[scooterbug44]

Nice graphic, but in the last 5 years, I've seen tropical storms and hurricanes of less than Category 3 take out the entire area you've identified as new "finish grade."

Just my Sacajawea! ;-)

[BeachSiO2]

Nice graphic, but in the last 5 years, I've seen tropical storms and hurricanes of less than Category 3 take out the entire area you've identified as new "finish grade."

Just my Sacajawea! ;-)

Maybe the intermediate stair step, but not the entire 80 cubic yards per foot of beach. I know, I helped analyze the data. What you likely saw was a lower beach that was in the area of about +5 feet in elevation at the toe of the dune. That lower beach was submerged and allowed for 2-3 feet waves impact the toe of the dune. Once the toe of the dune was impacted the top fell. I compare it to California cliff failures.

Voila, that is why you see a new designed beach that has a higher back beach area and a substantial amount of sand placed at the toe of the existing dunes. By the way, the beach was measured on 1000-ft increments both in 2004 and 2005 after hurricanes and there are no areas that lost 80 cubic yards of sand per foot of beach which is what the design is. Here is a link to the final report for those who may be interested.

http://protectwaltoncountybeaches.com/pdf/WaltonCountyPostDennisAssessment.pdf

My follow-up peso.

[Smiling JOe]

I appreciate the additional info, BeachSi02. I believe I understand the process. What I have witnessed first-hand from the 2004-2005 storms, which didn't actually directly hit this area, was a massive east/west push. It wasn't the wave action that hurt SoWal as much as it was the westerly push. That alone seemed to remove the sand from the beach and the base of the dunes. After that sand was removed, the waves were hitting, but only at the foot of the dunes. It was the westerly push, not the waves, which seemed to dismantle the beach walkovers from my observations. This push continued for more than 12 hours during each storm, and remember, we didn't even get hit by the storms.

What next? So we get hit a direct hit with a Cat 3 Hurricane, all the added sand is now removed. Fema steps in and pays for the redo, and we continue to fight a never ending battle against mother nature. Why don't we take notes from mother nature, and work around her? What's wrong with that idea? It has been stated on here that the beach nourishment is beneficial to everyone. I fail to see that. The dune systems will sluff, and smaller storms will push more sand on shore, replacing the sand on the beach. It just won't be immediately, but we know that all good things take time. We people tend to want to place things, pets, and people in a no-grow box, as soon as they get perfect. We think that our lives will be perfect when we do this, this, this, but the truth is, life is already perfect -- We just clutter it with layers hiding the perfection.

[BeachSiO2]

I appreciate the additional info, BeachSi02. I believe I understand the process. What I have witnessed first-hand from the 2004-2005 storms, which didn't actually directly hit this area, was a massive east/west push. It wasn't the wave action that hurt SoWal as much as it was the westerly push. That alone seemed to remove the sand from the beach and the base of the dunes. After that sand was removed, the waves were hitting, but only at the foot of the dunes. It was the westerly push, not the waves, which seemed to dismantle the beach walkovers from my observations. This push continued for more than 12 hours during each storm, and remember, we didn't even get hit by the storms.

What next? So we get hit a direct hit with a Cat 3 Hurricane, all the added sand is now removed. Fema steps in and pays for the redo, and we continue to fight a never ending battle against mother nature. Why don't we take notes from mother nature, and work around her? What's wrong with that idea? It has been stated on here that the beach nourishment is beneficial to everyone. I fail to see that. The dune systems will sluff, and smaller storms will push more sand on shore, replacing the sand on the beach. It just won't be immediately, but we know that all good things take time. We people tend to want to place things, pets, and people in a no-grow box, as soon as they get perfect. We think that our lives will be perfect when we do this, this, this, but the truth is, life is already perfect -- We just clutter it with layers hiding the perfection.

I agree that the fact that we were on the east side of the impact area that there was a strong westerly flow of water and sand. My point was that the height and width of the beach were both less than what is in the proposed project and thus I was trying to offer additional information on how you can't compare the beach condition during Dennis to the beach condition after a project. Keep in mind it didn't take long for the storm surge to submerge the existing lower beach which allowed the east-west push to directly impact the toe of the dunes. That beach was about 3-5 feet lower and 75 to 100 feet narrower than the designed beach. Like I said the construction volume is about 80cy/ft of beach which equivalent to 4 of the huge off-road dump trucks squished 1 ft wide.

The second part of your email is the political side of the equation. This is where risk comes into play and a decision by a community and community leaders on what level of risk they are willing to live with. I just wanted to outline how a project works and that it will make a difference in a storm to an upland area, whether is a house, a road, etc. There has been very good research done in this area by Bob Dean at UF showing correlation between distance to the water during a storm and damages to an upland area. I will try and track down a copy of the paper and have it added to the www.protectwaltoncountybeaches.com website for anyone's interest.

[Smiling JOe]

I understand that it is a lot of sand, but mother nature can move it in one swift swoop, while it may take us the entire summer to move it with heavy yellow equipment.

Can you explain how the rare Coastal Dune Lakes of Walton County will be affected by adding both elevation and width to the beach? Seems to me that doing such would likely cut off the lakes from the Gulf completely, unless we have a major hurricane.

[BeachSiO2]

I understand that it is a lot of sand, but mother nature can move it in one swift swoop, while it may take us the entire summer to move it with heavy yellow equipment.

Can you explain how the rare Coastal Dune Lakes of Walton County will be affected by adding both elevation and width to the beach? Seems to me that doing such would likely cut off the lakes from the Gulf completely, unless we have a major hurricane.

I am not arguing about what Mother Nature may do, because she can do a lot with one storm. I will say though that Mother Nature did not remove all of the sand from the Pensacola Beach project during Ivan and that was just about a direct hit from a Cat 3. The reality is that if a storm of the magnitude that it would take to remove that amount of sand were to hit South Walton or slightly west of us, then we will likely have even greater impacts around the low lying dune lake areas and properties north of 98.

There are buffers and set backs from each coastal lake outfall that is affected and no sand will be placed in front of the outfalls. At this time the project is designed to be built on both sides of Oyster, Draper, Alligator, and Eastern.

[Smiling JOe]

With as much as the wind seems to blow from the east, pushing sand around, I'm curious to know how far outside of the lakes are the set backs. We saw what happened with Easter Lake when sand was placed east of the outflow.

I do agree that storm surge from a direct storm hit will likely affect more inland owners than Gulf front owners, which is why I don't see why so much money is being spent on the beach, which is ever-changing.

It is good to have a specialist, like you, to explain some of this nourishment process, in plain language. Thanks.

[BeachSiO2]

With as much as the wind seems to blow from the east, pushing sand around, I'm curious to know how far outside of the lakes are the set backs. We saw what happened with Easter Lake when sand was placed east of the outflow.

I do agree that storm surge from a direct storm hit will likely affect more inland owners than Gulf front owners, which is why I don't see why so much money is being spent on the beach, which is ever-changing.

It is good to have a specialist, like you, to explain some of this nourishment process, in plain language. Thanks.

It depends on the lake and there has not been any final decision made. It is still being discussed with the permitting agencies, but the analysis for the design included the variability of the outfall location. It is a major point of discussion with the project, as it should be.

Like I said, its all about risk. How much damage would it due to the community from a physical, social, economic, etc. point if nothing is done, versus the costs (not just monetary) if a project is built. Hopefully, those who will be affected will participate in the process and make their voices heard.

[greenroomsurfer]

First of all this must be an important thread! This thread wasn't about sand movement, (the sand bypass bill will stop all dredging anyways) it's about re nourished beaches we payed for that people are calling private. Show me a graph for that Mr Sio, ha ha! By the way all you Surfrider folks we will be having a fund raiser at spinnaker with free surf movie night I'll post details later.

[Smiling JOe]

You got me thinking. If the beach is elevated and widened, and we get a storm, taking the sand back down to present width and height, people will still be forced to sit in the wet sand on then non-publicly deeded beach. Isn't that as much or more a tourist/economic problem than placing more sand on the beach?

[BeachSiO2]

First of all this must be an important thread! This thread wasn't about sand movement, (the sand bypass bill will stop all dredging anyways) it's about re nourished beaches we payed for that people are calling private. Show me a graph for that Mr Sio, ha ha! By the way all you Surfrider folks we will be having a fund raiser at spinnaker with free surf movie night I'll post details later.

You got me thinking. If the beach is elevated and widened, and we get a storm, taking the sand back down to present width and height, people will still be forced to sit in the wet sand on then non-publicly deeded beach. Isn't that as much or more a tourist/economic problem than placing more sand on the beach?

Like I said from the outset, my purpose was to offer technical and scientific answers regarding design and design philosophy for beach restoration projects. I believe both of you have raised points that are valid and fall within the policy side of beach restoration projects so make sure your policy makers know how you feel about them.

As for all dredging being stopped, I seriously doubt it. Actually, its impossible since many of the nations ports would close up due siltation. The federal funding goes back to the Rivers and Harbors Act of the early 1920's and it would be devastating to national security and commerce if there was "no dredging." That being said, there is always the possibility that there may be a loss of state funding but I don't believe there will ever be a complete stop to projects.

[Smiling JOe]

I appreciate your take on the technical and scientific matters of restoration.

[greenroomsurfer]

Read this then go to the link at the bottom of the page for the actual Bill. Somebody needs to tell Miss Kitty that Geo Tubes are outlawed!
Surfrider Campaign in Florida Wins Big!

Governor Crist Signs Comprehensive Beach Preservation Bill
Tallahassee, FL (June 13, 2007) – Florida Governor Charlie Crist has put pen to paper and enacted sweeping beach management legislation benefiting beachgoers and coastal wildlife. In so doing, the Surfrider Foundation’s ten Florida chapters have achieved a major milestone in their mission to promote the right of open access to Florida's waves and beaches for all people, as well as preserving the diversity and ecological integrity of Florida’s coastal environment

After months of tireless effort, in which the Surfrider Foundation helped guide Senate Bill 1472 to unanimous passage through both the Florida House and Senate, Governor Crist has given beachgoers a reason to celebrate. Governor Crist has recognized the need to preserve the public’s right to access the beach and protect beach users and sea turtles from the harmful affects caused by an experimental form of coastal armoring. Florida now joins the ranks of Texas and Oregon with an adequate beach access protection policy.

“We are delighted to finally see the full protection of beach access,” said Ericka D’Avanzo, Florida Regional Manager of the Surfrider Foundation. “Now recreational beach users can be assured that as growth continues along our coastline, we should not see any future loss of ocean access points.” This was accomplished through a clarification of Florida Statue Chapter 161, clarifying that the Florida Department of Environmental Protection protect all legally acquired beach access in their Coastal Construction Control Line permitting process.

TJ Marshall, Surfrider Foundation’s Florida Legislative Coordinator, said, “I’m stoked to see the efforts of our Florida members and so many other organizations provide substantial protection to Florida’s beaches, being part of this was like getting barreled on a perfect wave. It was also heartening to see legislators standing up unanimously for the major components of this bill, especially the additional permitting requirements regarding geotextile tubes in order to protect sea turtles and Florida’s fragile beach and dune system.”
Governor Crist’s signing of Senate Bill 1472 validates the tremendous efforts of Senators Dennis Jones and Burt Saunders along with Representatives Stan Mayfield and Bob Allen. Their dedication and vision for Florida’s coastal future have been realized. Legislation language can be found at here (http://www.flsenate.gov/data/session/2007/Senate/bills/billtext/pdf/s1472er.pdf).

[scooterbug44]

Great news - since the link is 9 pages, can you paraphrase for us please! :wave:

[TheSheep]

So what is one to do? Eh? Swim upstream against the potential, unrealized desires of Mother Nature? Lax back, assume that the sky will fall even if it is not at this moment?

Do we throw away our capabilities to restore? Or use those dollars to other means?

Having fought this fought on Cape San Blas, restoration underway, results not yet determined to time

http://www.savethecape.com/

I found it to be intolerable to refuse the fought.

[DuneLaker]

I've seen tons of sand blown into Eastern Lake from the west side over the years and natural sand from the east side. The County dumped and dredged sand certainly did not help the lake. Glad that has stopped, at least for now. I appreciate every day I can walk on the beach on real naturally placed sand and not processed and sculpted renourished sand. It just feels icky to me. Finding places that weren't bubbified with a lot of scraping is a challenge in some places. Until the public beach access issue is resolved, publicly funded renourishment and scraping should stop. Maybe the high price of gas will stop those tractors on the beach in their tracks.

[beacheart]

As I have stated before I am in favor of beach renourishment. I really need an answer to a question about public access and private beach that seems to be a part of the renourishment issue. I am not understanding exactly what public beach entails? What apart from the public and deeded beach accesses is needed or desired? I do understand about the public being protected from developers totally eliminating people's access to the beach by building wall to wall condos and hotels. That there needs to be access in the new areas of development. As far as I can tell along 30-A there are many public and deeded beach accesses. How is the public today not being respected?

[sowalgayboi]

So what is one to do? Eh? Swim upstream against the potential, unrealized desires of Mother Nature? Lax back, assume that the sky will fall even if it is not at this moment?

Do we throw away our capabilities to restore? Or use those dollars to other means?

Having fought this fought on Cape San Blas, restoration underway, results not yet determined to time

http://www.savethecape.com/

I found it to be intolerable to refuse the fought.

Are you saying this is a good idea?

Cape San Blas is a barrier island. If you're not familiar with what a barrier island is or its natural purpose please do some research. 50 years ago I can understand building on them, but with the current knowledge of what they are and how they act it is futile to try and rebuild a barrier island.

[beacheart]

I already have an answer to my question about the public vs private beach issue. I completely understand now. No one seems to be shy about calling beachfront people greedy so I won't be shy about expressing my opinion. Most of the people I know who have a house on the beach worked hard for what they have and they saved and were able to purchase a piece of property when it was affordable. Of course it will once again become very affordable if a big storm hits - because without renourishment no one will want to invest in south walton. Even the tourists will be going to other beaches. What then?

[TheSheep]

Are you saying this is a good idea?

Cape San Blas is a barrier island. If you're not familiar with what a barrier island is or its natural purpose please do some research. 50 years ago I can understand building on them, but with the current knowledge of what they are and how they act it is futile to try and rebuild a barrier island.
So 'tis my point. :blink:

[natureflixs]

30 years working for the Corps of Engineers and my experience with beach renourishment is its a function of money and time. Money to do it and anybodies guess at how long it takes for it to become a failure. But it will fail. That's why dredging for harbors is a routine maintenance item.

[sowalgayboi]

So 'tis my point. :blink:

Sorry, read your post wrong. :blush:

[TheSheep]

30 years working for the Corps of Engineers and my experience with beach renourishment is its a function of money and time. Money to do it and anybodies guess at how long it takes for it to become a failure. But it will fail. That's why dredging for harbors is a routine maintenance item.
Quite righty-right, Mr. ACoE, no doubt about it. Note the term restoration. I see this much like conservation, a returning to a past state not a permanent solution to the foibles of Mother Nature.

Again, I remit, do we walk away from this chore because it is not and end-all solution?

[grammyc]

If only the NEW Vistors could see those very dunes and small cottages of the old Grayton they would cry to know how wonderous it really was! I got the chance to stay for a week, only once, and the next time after a storm it was gone! Heart break! Thanks for you words,Diane

[grammyc]

beacheart--not to be rude, but just an observation from a different location of beach world. At Gulf Shores Al. I personally when to work atleast twice a week with DH, who at the time of Ivan was incharge of redirecting the sand back to the beach. I can say truthfully that beach restoration is not as easy or as precise as some would make it seem. Money or NOT! In our case a burden NOT on the BFowners but all of us as citizens! As a few have said already, nature and GOD do the best to put things right! To me, IMHO, the beach will never belong to anyone, no matter how hard they work! Just think about what kind of world we would have if Private started popping up on all the public places the rich had managed to BUY! Hope I didn't offen anyone, I'm still on my first cup of coffee .