Owners Argue "Leave No Trace"

[aleonard]

Walton County, FL-- Changes to one Walton County ordinance may make it easier for beach property owners. The "Leave No Trace" program keeps beaches clean by removing articles from the sand each night, after complaints from private property owners, county leaders are making alterations. Still, some have questions.


http://www.wmbb.com/gulfcoastwest/mbb/news.apx.-content-articles-MBB-2008-06-11-0013.html

[Franny]

Ok I have a question. We were on the beach last night, Grayton Beach that is and one family left all their stuff/shi$$ on the beach saying it only cost us $50 for the tent so who cares if the county takes it away..:idontno::bang:My ? is... there was a huge amount of tents, kayaks and who knows what left over by the lake..is this included in the 'dispose' county ordinance. Really pi$$ed us off especially after covering numerous holes at the waters edge.

[Miss Kitty]

Ok I have a question. We were on the beach last night, Grayton Beach that is and one family left all their stuff/shi$$ on the beach saying it only cost us $50 for the tent so who cares if the county takes it away..:idontno::bang:My ? is... there was a huge amount of tents, kayaks and who knows what left over by the lake..is this included in the 'dispose' county ordinance. Really pi$$ed us off especially after covering numerous holes at the waters edge.

Sheetheads. :angry:

Thanks for filling the holes...y'all are good people. :wub:

[jodiFL]

While in Publix today I overheard a woman (visitor) that was complaining (well... more like a word that is filtered on this site) because she was told by the VRBO homeowner that they would not take their stuff off the beach but they went back down there today to find about $100 worth of stuff removed. But was saying that she was there to but more stuff to take down to the beach. I wonder if she is going to leave it overnight AGAIN?

[JustaLocal]

Walton County, FL-- Changes to one Walton County ordinance may make it easier for beach property owners. The "Leave No Trace" program keeps beaches clean by removing articles from the sand each night, after complaints from private property owners, county leaders are making alterations. Still, some have questions.


http://www.wmbb.com/gulfcoastwest/mbb/news.apx.-content-articles-MBB-2008-06-11-0013.html

From the referenced article:
"The posts to the net have been there for 25 years, 10 feet into the ground. When the county told Edgewater to take it out, they filed suit.
Harris says 175 condominium owners signed, agreeing to pay legal fees to take the county to court. That's when the county decided to make changes, allowing the net to stay once owners get a permit for semi-permanent structures.
But for some, that may not be enough.
"an individual who owns their land to the water who can't leave their own beach chair on the beach at night," said Harris."

I find it disturbing that they all agree to pay legal fees when a more turtle friendly solution would be to pay someone to take in the items after sundown and replace then at sunrise.

I find it hard to believe that Ms. Harris, President of the Association for many years, is unaware of turtle nesting habits and the problem leaving beach chairs out can cause.

[Smiling JOe]

franny, tents are covered in the new ordinance, as are chairs, umbrellas, toys, swimming crap, towels, etc. However, kayaks and sailboats are not addressed, YET.

[Franny]

franny, tents are covered in the new ordinance, as are chairs, umbrellas, toys, swimming crap, towels, etc. However, kayaks and sailboats are not addressed, YET.

So when the turtle peddles onto the beach they know to go around the sailboat????:roll:

[kathydwells]

So when the turtle peddles onto the beach they know to go around the sailboat????:roll:

:roll: is right Franny.

[scooterbug44]

What is there to argue? :idontno:

One's desire to be a lazy slob DOESN'T trump the nesting of an endangered species!

[aleonard]

I didn't get to include everything Kevin H and I discussed in the code article but he also brought up the point of things left on the beach can hinder a rescue vehicle getting to someone in need. I thought it was a good point as well to make about things left on the beach.

[sowalgayboi]

While in Publix today I overheard a woman (visitor) that was complaining (well... more like a word that is filtered on this site) because she was told by the VRBO homeowner that they would not take their stuff off the beach but they went back down there today to find about $100 worth of stuff removed. But was saying that she was there to but more stuff to take down to the beach. I wonder if she is going to leave it overnight AGAIN?

I refer you to the definition of insanity.

(holding nose to create same pitch)
Ms. Harris has made it farely clear that Edgewater Beach Resort is home to environmentally irresponsible folks who don't care about their surroundings.
/sarcasm off/

Seriously though I don't care if those posts have been there 25 years or 50, turtles have been nesting on our beaches for 1,000s of years.

P.S. According to the Walton PA the building was built in 1985, apparently the construction crews enjoyed volleyball as well.

[scooterbug44]

How is something that has been there for 25 years and is embedded 10' into the ground a "temporary structure"? :idontno:

Seems rather permanent to me and since they did it sans permit should be paying a fine! ;-)

[danna B]

I for the life of me cant understand why people are pitching such a fit to take their crap off the beach. It is what it is, I take kids, and they can play with what they can carry. I take an umbrella and a chair (i have skin grafts) and I take it home with me, no big deal. I was born in South Walton and lived here my whole life as others have. I just simply dont get it. I say zero tolerance. Anything on the beach goes as of sundown......we should rally locals from all areas of the beach to take it all home after sundown. Eventually some of us could open a local store to sell it and use the money to help the beach somehow. I dont see any other alternative. The legal limbo of rights will go on as long as we are alive. Too many grey areas, no black and white. OVER THROW THE TUERONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And for some reason, the commissioners only care about the north end of the county when the south end brings in the revenue. I dont get that either.

[Amy@Avalon]

At least humans can see a tent in the dark... I wonder how many people have hurt themselves stepping into holes left by kids, compelled by some genetic thing to dig. I fill them in at sunset as I leave the beach, almost daily. I tell my clients that holes are a hazard. They seem genuinely surprised.

[scooterbug44]

I don't understand the issue either - it's the government version of "if you don't pick up your toys, you'll lose your toys!" :idontno:

That crap is a major safety hazard to humans and wildlife!

[danna B]

yea, I am with you. My kids dig, and yes boys are compelled to dig. (i think they channel some inner dog, they bark too!) but I do make them fill it, along with my skin grafts I also acquired a metal rod in my leg and god forbid me step in a hole. I think I might kill someone. If we all picked up other trash than ours, filled the freakin holes, and took the tourists crap....just a little bit everyday, we may have our beach back. If it was left up to them they would destroy it just like they have PC, which would be a tragedy. :lolabove:

[kurt]

People can argue all day long they have a right to leave stuff on the beach or leave holes, and that their rights are more important then a turtle's rights or the rights of someone walking on the beach. But no person can get away with arguing that they can leave stuff or holes on the beach because emergency vehicles don't need a clear and safe path.

Therein lies the key to level, clutter-free, safe beaches.

[Andy A.]

People can argue all day long they have a right to leave stuff on the beach or leave holes, and that their rights are more important then a turtle's rights or the rights of someone walking on the beach. But no person can get away with arguing that they can leave stuff or holes on the beach because emergency vehicles don't need a clear and safe path.

Therein lies the key to level, clutter-free, safe beaches.
Very true! Unfortunately, there are other reasons just as good, but any thing that works is acceptable.

[Smiling JOe]

www.waltondemocrats.org/?q=node/222

Here is a link to the video from the Tuesday BCC meeting, regarding "Leave No Trace Ordinance," courtesy of Ray Padgett and www.WaltonDemocrats.org I really like what the one beach front owner states about the being for everyone.

[JustaLocal]

www.waltondemocrats.org/?q=node/222 (http://www.waltondemocrats.org/?q=node/222)

Here is a link to the video from the Tuesday BCC meeting, regarding "Leave No Trace Ordinance," courtesy of Ray Padgett and www.WaltonDemocrats.org (http://www.WaltonDemocrats.org) I really like what the one beach front owner states about the being for everyone.

Thanks for the link SJ. I so wanted to attend this meeting but this stupid flu I‘ve had has kept me home.

It really makes you appreciate Com. Meadows and Com. Comander. I was also glad to see Mr. Anderson and the lady from 4 Mile Village speak up as voices of reason amidst some that weren’t.

[Rita]

From the referenced article:
"The posts to the net have been there for 25 years, 10 feet into the ground. When the county told Edgewater to take it out, they filed suit.
Harris says 175 condominium owners signed, agreeing to pay legal fees to take the county to court. That's when the county decided to make changes, allowing the net to stay once owners get a permit for semi-permanent structures.
But for some, that may not be enough.
"an individual who owns their land to the water who can't leave their own beach chair on the beach at night," said Harris."

I find it disturbing that they all agree to pay legal fees when a more turtle friendly solution would be to pay someone to take in the items after sundown and replace then at sunrise.

I find it hard to believe that Ms. Harris, President of the Association for many years, is unaware of turtle nesting habits and the problem leaving beach chairs out can cause.


Good observation JaL!


.

[swantree]

save the babies! I did think the comment about using the gps system to be a good idea!

[JustaLocal]

save the babies! I did think the comment about using the gps system to be a good idea!

You're right, that is a great idea. When you consider how much the beach changes daily, it is best and easiest way to confirm location.

[JustaLocal]

Good observation JaL!.

In the video of the meeting Ms. Harris pointed out that part of Edgewater's contract with the beach vendors is that they pick up anything left on the beach. In fact, she made it sound like aside from their volleyball net poles, they are behind this ordinance.

[yippie]

In today's NW Florida Daily News. Wonder who is suppose to decide what is in the way of turtles and beach patrol vehicles. What IS the problem with the way it is not and WHO is behind this mess?



No day at the beach

Proposed law in Walton pits cleanliness, sea turtle nesting against property rights

By ANDY MEINEN andym@nwfdailynews.com



SANTA ROSA BEACH — Leave no trace or leave it be?
That’s the question many people in South Walton County are wrestling with when it comes to leaving beach chairs, umbrellas, volleyball nets and other items on the beach overnight.
The county’s Leave No Trace ordinance regulates what can be left on the beach and what will be picked up and thrown away.
County officials say the clutter hurts the economy and interferes with sea turtle nesting. Beachfront property owners say their rights are being restricted.
Walton commissioners addressed the reworded ordinance at its first public hearing Tuesday.
Commissioner Cindy Meadows said items left on the beach overnight will accumulate until it looks like a gypsy camp. That will deter tourists and home buyers from investing in South Walton, she said.
“People come here and buy property because of the clean, pristine beaches,” she said.
The new ordinance is a reworking of the original law enacted last summer. The new wording gives some leeway to leave gear on the beach overnight, but a permit is needed.
Meadows said people can get permits from the county’s planning department. However, items left on the beach overnight can’t block sea turtles or emergency vehicles’ paths, Meadows said.
“This is an ordinance we’ve got to have,” she said. “It will be tweaked but it’s not perfect, and it’s a first attempt to keep the beaches as nice as we possibly can.”
A second public hearing on the ordinance will be July 8.
Some beachfront homeowners are leery of the law. Emmett Hildreth, who owns a beachfront home in Blue Mountain Beach, said the county is overstepping its authority.
He said Walton has no problem accepting his property taxes every year. But now the county wants to put a public easement on it, in effect, and tell him what he can and can’t do on his land, he added.
“We want to live on our piece of property without government interference,” he said. “This is like taxation without representation. The county does not have the authority to take property without paying for it.”
Some residents at Tuesday’s hearing said the beach should have never been titled to homeowners. They argued that cus- tomary use — the expected right to have access to the beach — trumps any deed and title.
But Hildreth said that there has been no customary use proven to exist in Blue Mountain Beach.
Suzanne Harris, president of the board of directors of Edgewater Beach Condominiums in Miramar Beach, said that she is for clean, safe beaches. However, she sued the county when officials said the complex’s volleyball net had to come down.
Harris said the volleyball net has been up for about 25 years and its poles are cemented 10 feet into the ground, so moving it would be difficult. She added that the net has never caused a problem and that she objects to the county telling private property owners what to do.
“Each owner should be responsible for their property,” she said.
Harris said people who don’t take care of their property should be fined. The Leave No Trace ordinance includes a $100 fine for the first offense and a $200 fine for a second offense.
The issue could be solved in court. The Florida Supreme Court is considering a lawsuit brought by Save Our Beaches against Walton County over beach restoration. The group claims restoration was an illegal taking of their property. The county countered that the beaches belong to the public.
The Supreme Court’s ruling could end to the private versus pubic beach issue for good.
In the meantime, the Leave No Trace law looks to fill the gap. Meadows said the county isn’t trying to put anything over on beachfront homeowners.
“We are not taking their land,” she said. “Walton County is very property rights oriented. We’ve got to work together.”

[NotDeadYet]

Who is behind it, you ask?
At any meeting during the last few years, whether it is lights, seawalls, turtles, any sort of beach rules, the same small but vocal bunch of people turns up. They believe it is their God-given right to do what they want to do on "their" property, and they cloak it in the guise of property rights. Some people never learned, and apparently never will learn, that rights come with responsibilities. They are quite happy to jump all over the idea of dominion but conveniently ignore stewardship. I for one hope they all have to answer to a higher power one day. :bang:

[jdarg]

Who is behind it, you ask?
At any meeting during the last few years, whether it is lights, seawalls, turtles, any sort of beach rules, the same small but vocal bunch of people turns up. They believe it is their God-given right to do what they want to do on "their" property, and they cloak it in the guise of property rights. Some people never learned, and apparently never will learn, that rights come with responsibilities. They are quite happy to jump all over the idea of dominion but conveniently ignore stewardship. I for one hope they all have to answer to a higher power one day. :bang:

Sadly, your comment applies to more than just beach issues. I've noticed this trend from comments in the political forum. There is so much "me me me" and "mine mine mine mine"- the "I don't give a rat's ass about everyone else as long as my I/my stuff/my money is OK."

So yes, it's a :bang:.

[LivinEasy]

I agree 100% with everyone that articles should be removed from the beach at night (chairs, towels, tents, etc. ) I do not agree that sailboats and kayaks should have to be removed as long as they are neatly stacked together in one location. You will see in places like Rosemary Beach where stands have been built to store the kayaks off the ground in central location. I think that is a reasonable solution that is good for the turtles while allowing the beach rental people to make a living. As for sailboats, with the limited number that exist on the beaches, I think it is not rational to ask that they be removed every night. Otherwise, you would have to allow more driving on the beach to trailor them off, which would be even worse. The chance of a turtle running into a sailboat is about 100 times less likely than a turtle running into a beach walkover. Are we going to remove all the beach walkovers also? Lets do everything we can to protect the turtles and keep our beaches clean but be rational at the same time.

[NotDeadYet]

Lets do everything we can to protect the turtles and keep our beaches clean but be rational at the same time.

Good advice. I think the reason we cannot seem to do this is because "we," and when I say "we" I mean it in the collective, communal sense, have not agreed to the fundamental principle involved. If we had agreement that clearing the beach at night, whether for the turtles or for public safety or for aesthetics, is a goal worthy of community support, the rest of it would just be the details and they would work themselves out. I really think if the beaches were cleared at night up there Edgewater way, the two posts would no longer be an issue. Either they would be a small detail in an otherwise clear beach, or maybe the Edgewater folks would even decide to seek another solution. Likewise the occasional sailboat. What we have now are a bunch of whiners saying, like little kids, "you can't make me, it's mine."
Rosemary has found their own solution because it is a community decision they made, a value they support.

[NotDeadYet]

Well I hit the wrong button, I wasn't finished. We are going about it backwards, arguing about the details because we haven't agreed on the principle, that is what I intended to end my rant with. :wave:

[swantree]

Has anyone seen the kids helmets at Wally world? they have these hard hats with big ol' flashlights on them: they say "Destin Beach Crabber" or something like that! I should take a picture! i know this is off subject but are we not supposed to have big flashlights on the beach? know someone is marketing them, as a crabbing item at wally world to do just that!:confused:

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Good advice. I think the reason we cannot seem to do this is because "we," and when I say "we" I mean it in the collective, communal sense, have not agreed to the fundamental principle involved. If we had agreement that clearing the beach at night, whether for the turtles or for public safety or for aesthetics, is a goal worthy of community support, the rest of it would just be the details and they would work themselves out. I really think if the beaches were cleared at night up there Edgewater way, the two posts would no longer be an issue. Either they would be a small detail in an otherwise clear beach, or maybe the Edgewater folks would even decide to seek another solution. Likewise the occasional sailboat. What we have now are a bunch of whiners saying, like little kids, "you can't make me, it's mine."
Rosemary has found their own solution because it is a community decision they made, a value they support.

NDY, in general I agree with the "spirit" of your post except for the next to the last sentence.

Do you think the issue of a single private family home, lets say one at Blue Mountain Beach, who leaves a single umbrella out overnight on 3 separate occasions should allow the government to arrest that private property owner using "authorized" deadly force if necessary?

That's what we're talking about if some of the short sighted people at the county gets their way.

I LOVE turtles. I LOVE the beach. I and many others don't need ANOTHER (illegal) law. The beachfront owners are as concerned about these issues as anyone else for obvious reasons. I won't even replace my burned out lightbulbs oustside for the same type of reason.

There needs to be balance, not bad "light" continuously and mindlessly cast on beachfront property owners.

I and others ask that our rental guests remove their stuff off the beach every evening. It seems to work based on what I see at the beach in morning. If that doesn't work, I guess we can demand (as property owners) that they remove their stuff, similar to the no pets allowed rule for our property.

Let's try to facilitate what we ALL WANT by working together without the use of "deadly force".

Do you think it is possible?

By the way, what did Rosemary beach do (I may have missed it)?

[JustaLocal]

NDY, in general I agree with the "spirit" of your post except for the next to the last sentence.

Do you think the issue of a single private family home, lets say one at Blue Mountain Beach, who leaves a single umbrella out overnight on 3 separate occasions should allow the government to arrest that private property owner using "authorized" deadly force if necessary?

That's what we're talking about if some of the short sighted people at the county gets their way.

I LOVE turtles. I LOVE the beach. I and many others don't need ANOTHER (illegal) law. The beachfront owners are as concerned about these issues as anyone else for obvious reasons. I won't even replace my burned out lightbulbs oustside for the same type of reason.

There needs to be balance, not bad "light" continuously and mindlessly cast on beachfront property owners.

I and others ask that our rental guests remove their stuff off the beach every evening. It seems to work based on what I see at the beach in morning. If that doesn't work, I guess we can demand (as property owners) that they remove their stuff, similar to the no pets allowed rule for our property.

Let's try to facilitate what we ALL WANT by working together without the use of "deadly force".

Do you think it is possible?

By the way, what did Rosemary beach do (I may have missed it)?

Where in the world is that coming from? Is that in the new wording of the ordinance? If you leave items on the beach 3 times you can be arrested!?
I thought they would just remove the offending items. I've had a flu the past week or so and haven't been keeping up well. Maybe I missed this part.

But really, DEADLY FORCE!!??

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Where in the world is that coming from? Is that in the new wording of the ordinance? If you leave items on the beach 3 times you can be arrested!?
I thought they would just remove the offending items. I've had a flu the past week or so and haven't been keeping up well. Maybe I missed this part.

But really, DEADLY FORCE!!??

REALLY!

When an officer is authorized to arrest a person for ANY reason, he is authorized to use DEADLY FORCE, if necessary.

I hope this answers your question...from today's Walton Sun:


Local residents divided over beach ordinance

By Sean Boone sean (http://javascript<b></b>:execLinkTarget('sean_boone@link.freedom.com','EML '))_ (http://javascript<b></b>:execLinkTarget('sean_boone@link.freedom.com','EML '))boone (http://javascript<b></b>:execLinkTarget('sean_boone@link.freedom.com','EML '))@ (http://javascript<b></b>:execLinkTarget('sean_boone@link.freedom.com','EML '))link (http://javascript<b></b>:execLinkTarget('sean_boone@link.freedom.com','EML ')). (http://javascript<b></b>:execLinkTarget('sean_boone@link.freedom.com','EML '))freedom (http://javascript<b></b>:execLinkTarget('sean_boone@link.freedom.com','EML ')). (http://javascript<b></b>:execLinkTarget('sean_boone@link.freedom.com','EML '))com (http://javascript<b></b>:execLinkTarget('sean_boone@link.freedom.com','EML '))

What authority does the county have to remove recreational items left on private beaches?
It’s a question the Walton Board of County Commissioners brought to the table at Tuesday’s scheduled meeting and had answered with sharp opinions from beach residents.
A public forum was held during the meeting to discuss changes to the South Walton Tourist Development Council’s Remove It Or Lose It program. The Walton County Sheriff’s Office is currently not removing items left on the beach overnight on private property until an ordinance is put in place.
Under the proposed ordinance, beach residents would be required to remove items such as beach chairs, towels, umbrellas and other items from the beach unless they have a permit from the county to leave a specific item.
Failure to comply would be punishable by fines and a possible jail sentence for a third offense.
One of the biggest critics at the meeting was Blue Mountain Beach resident Emmett Hildreth, who told the BCC it would be stepping outside of its boundary if it required private beach owners to adhere to any sanctioned beach enforcement regarding item abandonment.
“(This is) grand larceny by the county,” he said. “The property owners will stand together against this commission (if passed).”
Hildreth claimed the ordinance would hurt development and steer people away from buying in South Walton.
Commissioner Cindy Meadows disagreed.
“The number one thing the TDC records as to why people come here is a clean beach,” she said. “You are raising an issue that is selfish and totally out of line.”
South Walton resident Leonard Anderson said it was imperative to have a clean beach for the sake of sea turtles and quality of life for residents and doesn’t understand how the beach became private.
“I’m a little tired of hearing those beaches are private,” he said. “They weren’t in ‘91 (when I moved here).”
County Interim Attorney Mike Burke stated the beaches must comply with federal environmental standards and also recommended the ordinance be endorsed to meet these requirements and provide a healthy and safe beach.
The board took no action on the ordinance and moved for a second public forum to be held during the July 8 BCC meeting at the South Walton Courthouse Annex.

[Smiling JOe]

BMBW, that is hogwash. An officer cannot use deadly force unless he or she fears their life is threatened.

Now let's say that someone sets up their umbrella and chairs on the beach in front of your house. They leave their beach crap on the beach overnight. You are okay with that? You don't want the TDC to police that?

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

"BMBW, that is hogwash."

Uhhhh...that's BMBV not BMBW by the way.

I agree. The County's attempt to trivialize private property rights in the name of "clean beaches" IS hogwash. :cool: Most private property owners are quite capable of taking care of their own private property.

"An officer cannot use deadly force unless he or she fears their life is threatened."

No argument.

BUT who knows what could happen when an armed agent of the government comes to your home to arrest you for simply having your own umbrella on your own property for 3 nights.

"Now let's say that someone sets up their umbrella and chairs on the beach in front of your house. They leave their beach crap on the beach overnight. You are okay with that? You don't want the TDC to police that?"

They can't and they shouldn't.

[Smiling JOe]

they can and they do, so what do you want the gov't to do about the ones who leave their crap their overnight.

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

SJ, How about a REAL question?...........

Redfish Village owns an 80 foot lot as you know. Also as you know, the public has access rights to the sandy part of the lot via a public easement (that's how they got the whole mess passed by the way). Does this mean that the county has the authority to tell them what to do regarding "Remove It or Lose It"?

[NotDeadYet]

NDY, in general I agree with the "spirit" of your post except for the next to the last sentence.

Here's my next to last sentence:
What we have now are a bunch of whiners saying, like little kids, "you can't make me, it's mine."

Umm, I think you just proved my point. :roll:

:wave:

[JustaLocal]

"An officer cannot use deadly force unless he or she fears their life is threatened."

No argument.

BUT who knows what could happen when an armed agent of the government comes to your home to arrest you for simply having your own umbrella on your own property for 3 nights.

You are exaggerating. I read through the ordinance. I think if the owner is going to have a big hissy fit about their umbrella, then they are likely to express that when they go pay the first two fines. $100 first violation and $200 for the second.

From the proposed ordinance http://www.co.walton.fl.us/default.asp?id=241 (Click 'Tab C' to read proposed ordinance):
"5. Penalties.
a. Any person to whom a citation is issued shall pay the fine by the designated date or appear in county court at the time, date, and location designated in the citation.
b. Minimum civil penalties for violations of this section are as follows:
i. First violation $100.00
ii. Second violation $200.00
iii. Third and subsequent violations. Fine up to $500.00 and/or up to 60 days in jail."

The proposed ordinance also says that items that remain on the beach between an hour after dusk and an hour after sunrise without a permit will be deemed abandoned and will become the property of Walton County. If the County disposed of the umbrella after the first night, I don’t think they would write a citation at all.

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

You are exaggerating..........
.......
Third and subsequent violations. Fine up to $500.00 and/or up to 60 days in jail."


So what exactly did I exaggerate?

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Here's my next to last sentence:
What we have now are a bunch of whiners saying, like little kids, "you can't make me, it's mine."

Umm, I think you just proved my point. :roll:

:wave:
Nice. [ edit....forgot my :biggrin: to balance out your :wave:; forgot my SoWal etiquette AND one more thing: I sincerely asked you 3 questions and this is all I get? :cry: ]

[JustaLocal]

BUT who knows what could happen when an armed agent of the government comes to your home to arrest you for simply having your own umbrella on your own property for 3 nights.

Do you think the issue of a single private family home, lets say one at Blue Mountain Beach, who leaves a single umbrella out overnight on 3 separate occasions should allow the government to arrest that private property owner using "authorized" deadly force if necessary?

That's what we're talking about if some of the short sighted people at the county gets their way.

So what exactly did I exaggerate?

Exaggerating.

First you would have to get one citation and pay a fine, then you would have to get a second citation and pay a larger fine, then you would have to get a third citation and pay an even bigger fine - and MAYBE you could get yourself sentenced to up to 60 days in jail. Your example of an umbrella for 3 occasions will likely just cause you to "abandon" ownership of 3 umbrellas.

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Exaggerating.

First you would have to get one citation and pay a fine, then you would have to get a second citation and pay a larger fine, then you would have to get a third citation and pay an even bigger fine - and MAYBE you could get yourself sentenced to up to 60 days in jail. Your example of an umbrella for 3 occasions will likely just cause you to "abandon" ownership of 3 umbrellas.
I think you just stated my case when you said "and MAYBE you could get yourself sentenced to up to 60 days in jail".

The point, again, that is intentionally ignored here is that one could go to jail for leaving their umbrella(s) out 3 times.

There are no shades of gray with that interpretation.

By the way, this is one hell of a "signal" for TDC to be sending out to increase tourism IMO.

[JustaLocal]

The point, again, that is intentionally ignored here is that one could go to jail for leaving their umbrella(s) out 3 times.

There are no shades of gray with that interpretation.

No, you couldn't.

[Smiling JOe]

you could also apply for a permit to leave your crap on the beach.

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

you could also apply for a permit to leave your crap on the beach.
That could get stinky! :biggrin:

I'm aware of this permit stuff but it currently isn't required for private property owners or did I miss something?

Regarding the current authority that the county does have over public beach, do you think the county has same authority over privately owned beach that has a public easement recorded with it (such as Redfish Village)?

SJ, I don't why you're dodging the question. I don't have a clue or an opinion (imagine that).

[Andy A.]

SJ, How about a REAL question?...........

Redfish Village owns an 80 foot lot as you know. Also as you know, the public has access rights to the sandy part of the lot via a public easement (that's how they got the whole mess passed by the way). Does this mean that the county has the authority to tell them what to do regarding "Remove It or Lose It"?
Yes

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Yes
Could you please elaborate just a tad?

[Andy A.]

Could you please elaborate just a tad?
No. Arguing, not debating, with you is pointless as I have found on many other occasions.

[elgordoboy]

Nice. [ edit....forgot my :biggrin: to balance out your :wave:; forgot my SoWal etiquette AND one more thing: I sincerely asked you 3 questions and this is all I get? :cry: ]
Some remedial education is required in the appropriate use of smileys for you, example to follow....

"BMBW, that is hogwash."

Uhhhh...that's BMBV not BMBW by the way.

I agree. The County's attempt to trivialize private property rights in the name of "clean beaches" IS hogwash. :cool: Most private property owners are quite capable of taking care of their own private property.

"An officer cannot use deadly force unless he or she fears their life is threatened."

No argument.

BUT who knows what could happen when an armed agent of the government comes to your home to arrest you for simply having your own umbrella on your own property for 3 nights.

"Now let's say that someone sets up their umbrella and chairs on the beach in front of your house. They leave their beach crap on the beach overnight. You are okay with that? You don't want the TDC to police that?"

They can't and they shouldn't.
Using the blue face with sunglasses smiley should be done when something funny or "cool" has been posted. Like successfully turning the tables on a previous poster. Maybe do some test posting and make some polls, find out truly if you are reaching your audience, then, after sharpening your skillz, return and post topical smileys and be laughed with, not laughed at....:cool: (Am I using that right?). :wave: Feel free to ask for assistance anytime.

[JustaLocal]

That could get stinky! :biggrin:

I'm aware of this permit stuff but it currently isn't required for private property owners or did I miss something?

Regarding the current authority that the county does have over public beach, do you think the county has same authority over privately owned beach that has a public easement recorded with it (such as Redfish Village)?

SJ, I don't why you're dodging the question. I don't have a clue or an opinion (imagine that).

Isn't this a moot point right now? I was under the impression that until they pass the re-worded ordinance, they were only removing items from public beach accesses. Are they removing items left overnight at Redfish currently?

[scooterbug44]

Quit being a douchebag, pick up your crap instead of whining about property rights, and start being a contributing member of the community.

That is all!

[elgordoboy]

Stop beating around the bush and say how you really feel sbug rofl...

[30A Skunkape]

:lol:

[TreeFrog]

Maybe I missed something here... :scratch:

"Remove it or lose it" is the law, isn't it?

Private property rights encompass a lot of things, but I don't think they allow you to do something illegal on your property, do they? :confused:

Current presidency excepted, we Americans tend to believe in the rule of law, which (in theory) includes abiding by laws we find distasteful until we are able to get them changed. Or otherwise deciding to breaking them, then accepting the potential consequences. In this case, that would be losing our beach umbrella.

[elgordoboy]

Maybe I missed something here... :scratch:

"Remove it or lose it" is the law, isn't it?

Private property rights encompass a lot of things, but I don't think they allow you to do something illegal on your property, do they? :confused:

Current presidency excepted, we Americans tend to believe in the rule of law, which (in theory) includes abiding by laws we find distasteful until we are able to get them changed. Or otherwise deciding to breaking them, then accepting the potential consequences. In this case, that would be losing our beach umbrella.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau)

[Smiling JOe]

That could get stinky! :biggrin:

I'm aware of this permit stuff but it currently isn't required for private property owners or did I miss something?

Regarding the current authority that the county does have over public beach, do you think the county has same authority over privately owned beach that has a public easement recorded with it (such as Redfish Village)?

SJ, I don't why you're dodging the question. I don't have a clue or an opinion (imagine that).

I haven't dodged anything. Maybe I didn't see your question.

Whether or not the County chooses to enforce it, the current rule, which also applies to privately deeded beach, does not allow for any objects which may obstruct Sea Turtles or County Vehicles on the beach. The Sea Turtle part is only seasonal, but the County vehicle part applies year round. Leave your crap out and let it be shown that your crap becomes an obstacle for an endangered animal, like the Leatherback Turtle, and you will quickly find out what a felony is all about.

Yes, current authority applies to all beaches, whether privately deeded, public, or privately deeded with recorded easements.

Treefrog had a more lengthy reply for you, with which I fully agree.




Maybe I missed something here... :scratch:

"Remove it or lose it" is the law, isn't it?

Private property rights encompass a lot of things, but I don't think they allow you to do something illegal on your property, do they? :confused:

Current presidency excepted, we Americans tend to believe in the rule of law, which (in theory) includes abiding by laws we find distasteful until we are able to get them changed. Or otherwise deciding to breaking them, then accepting the potential consequences. In this case, that would be losing our beach umbrella.

[ASH]

Anybody that feels a need to justify what they do by making comments such as "we are beach property owners" or "we're exempt" in any form is in my opinion and I believe a big pile of others on this forum, just being pure lazy and thoughtless when it comes to others.
Others being emergency vehicles trying to do a public service. Try once being on the other end of that emergency and see if it doesn't change your attitude as to why it took so long for an emergency vehicle to get to you when you needed them.
Others being creatures that were here long before we even knew what a beach was.
Others being tourists (love em or not) that pump much of the life-blood into why these small communities are what they are.
Yep, there are a bunch of you out there that wish it stayed the way it was 20 years ago. There are some of you out there that have already forgotten that the reason you live as well as you now do is precisely because it didn't stay that way.

[John R]

Guys, don't you realize that private beach owners are above all laws, and that they have elected BMBV to be their mouthpiece? He's making friends:wave: and influencing people on this thread as well as he's done on others.

Get it straight: private beach owners can erect a wall wherever they want, out of any material they want, put put signs with whatever editorial they choose, and will leave their stuff wherever they want, because they can. They're entitled. Hazards to animals or humans, unsightly messes, etc. just don't apply to them. Get off their backs and their beaches.

[Smiling JOe]

John R, can they also grow marijuana on their beach property?

[ASH]

Get it straight: private beach owners can erect a wall wherever they want, out of any material they want, put put signs with whatever editorial they choose, and will leave their stuff wherever they want, because they can. They're entitled. Hazards to animals or humans, unsightly messes, etc. just don't apply to them. Get off their backs and their beaches.

Oh...I'm sorry. I didn't know that. My bad. :floor:

[jdarg]

Everyone needs to pay close attention to the BCC candidates' positions on this issue, which will probably be one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, issue of the next 4 years.

[TreeFrog]

Everyone needs to pay close attention to the BCC candidates' positions on this issue, which will probably be one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, issue of the next 4 years.

With reference to the other thread(s) regarding lack of publicized positions and folks being intimidated into not running for BCC seats (lengthy intro, eh?)...

Have any of the candidates taken a position on the "private beach" issue? If so, how about some links to where we can read what they said?

[JustaLocal]

http://sowal.com/bb/showthread.php?t=23167
Bob Hudson addressed private beaches in Post #30. There are several questions and answers, this is toward the end of the post.
"Is the beach public or are some areas private and the public shouldn't use them?"

[TreeFrog]

http://sowal.com/bb/showthread.php?t=23167
Bob Hudson addressed private beaches in Post #30. There are several questions and answers, this is toward the end of the post.
"Is the beach public or are some areas private and the public shouldn't use them?"

Thanks.

Looks like he personally wants to be able to continue to walk and use the beach, but doesn't want the county to go toe-to-toe with the owners. "Let the Supreme Court do it" seems to be the position I get. Cake and eat it too?

I take it none of the rest have gone on record?

[TreeFrog]

Slightly drifting, I think what they let Redfish Village do in BMBV's neighborhood is wrong. I'd probably take some of the positions he does if that had happened to me.

[Smiling JOe]

Slightly drifting, I think what they let Redfish Village do in BMBV's neighborhood is wrong.
I agree. The County had no business approving what is in essence, a commercial property, in a residential neighborhood. I will say that, for Blue Mtn Beach, they screwed it up long before Redfish Village, by allowing the multitude of condos to be built in a low density residential neighborhood.

Regardless, the crap doesn't need to be left on the beach, and if I was a beach front property owner, I'd want the County to enforce the rules about people who leave their crap in my back yard, especially if I lived next door to something like the access for 70+ units.

[Smiling JOe]

Here is the newly amended proposed draft, being discussed tomorrow 4pm at the South Walton County Courthouse annex.

http://www.co.walton.fl.us/administration/julyeight/Tab-G.pdf

[TreeFrog]

Just read it.

I was pleased to see there doesn't seem to be any making of exceptions for those claiming property rights for their "private beach".

And I would guess that the prerequisite of the state approval before the county grants a permit for an exemption will keep the number of permit applications quite small.

The "abandonment" clause appears to make "remove it or lose it" an apt description, if....

(is this a big deal or do I not understand the process?) There seems to be no mention of who will handle the actual removal, how often, how it will be funded, etc. Without that, it's just a hollow law.

[TreeFrog]

Here is the newly amended proposed draft, being discussed tomorrow 4pm at the South Walton County Courthouse annex.

http://www.co.walton.fl.us/administration/julyeight/Tab-G.pdf

SJ - Sorry to say, my DSL line has been intermittent for the last 3 days and I just read your message. I would have attended if I'd seen it yesterday. :bang:

Did you go? How about a summary of what went down.

[BeachSiO2]

SJ - Sorry to say, my DSL line has been intermittent for the last 3 days and I just read your message. I would have attended if I'd seen it yesterday. :bang:

Did you go? How about a summary of what went down.

It's still going on right now, but SJ is here so I will let him fill everyone in later. My head hurts.

[steeleing1]

It's still going on right now, but SJ is here so I will let him fill everyone in later. My head hurts.

I feel for you. The first agenda item about did me in. It was lovely to see you, though.

[Smiling JOe]

Actually, steeleing1, the first agenda item took up two hours, and was ending when you arrived. Just be glad you didn't also have to sit through it. I've been thinking about setting up an illegal Grilled Cheese table in the parking lot for these all-dayers.

TreeFrog, enforcement is covered in existing Code. The language in the link above was slightly tweeked, but mostly remains the same. They removed the part about bringing permits from the FLDEP, et al, noting that the County doesn't want to be enforcing State stuff. They used the example of driving on the beach. Getting a driving permit, the County expects that the State will enforce the basics such as driver's license, insurance, etc. Other than that change, it mostly remains the same.

Many people in attendance were in favor of the ordinance and there were about three who spoke against it.

[ShallowsNole]

It's still going on right now, but SJ is here so I will let him fill everyone in later. My head hurts.

Yours wasn't the only one! (good to see you, btw :wave:)

[BeachSiO2]

I feel for you. The first agenda item about did me in. It was lovely to see you, though.

Good to see you too. Sorry I didn't get a chance to come get a hug but if I would have gotten up I would have likely ended up on the floor.

Yours wasn't the only one! (good to see you, btw :wave:)

:wave: It was good to see you too.

[BeachSiO2]

Actually, steeleing1, the first agenda item took up two hours, and was ending when you arrived. Just be glad you didn't also have to sit through it. I've been thinking about setting up an illegal Grilled Cheese table in the parking lot for these all-dayers.

I'll set up a lemonade stand to go with it. :biggrin:

Then again, I probably won't since my typical m.o. is :leaving: when I am done.

[Smiling JOe]

I'm not waiting around after the end of the mtg to sell grilled cheeses. I'd make them available prior starting around 3:30pm and reopen the table during the breaks. You know that Larry Jones would be all about it! Might need to add some ham to go with his.

[momoftwins]

I love the new ordinance. We live on Scenic 98 and I take my kids to clean up the beach early Sunday morning. I will start going on Saturday night. The visitors get really cranky when you are taking away their crap and they can see you. My kids (5 year olds) and I spend hours cleaning up our beaches so that we can all enjoy and they complain that they don't want to take their stuff in every night. God help the lazy people of this world. What are they teaching their children. I could go on and on....but I won't.

[momoftwins]

I love the new ordinance. We live on Scenic 98 and I take my kids to clean up the beach early Sunday morning. I will start going on Saturday night. The visitors get really cranky when you are taking away their crap and they can see you. My kids (5 year olds) and I spend hours cleaning up our beaches so that we can all enjoy and they complain that they don't want to take their stuff in every night. God help the lazy people of this world. What are they teaching their children. I could go on and on....but I won't.

[BeachSiO2]

Updated article from the Destin Log, Edgewater Condominium has filed suit.

http://www.thedestinlog.com/news/beach_7104___article.html/ordinance_items.html

[sowalgayboi]

The condo association president is an idiot. Mossyhead doesn't have enforcement in their pastures for 2 reasons:

1.) Cows won't leave the pasture and give birth elsewhere due to an obstruction.
2.) Cows aren't an endangered species.

I hope this lawsuit backfires and bankrupts the condo association.

[idlewind]

The condo association president is an idiot. Mossyhead doesn't have enforcement in their pastures for 2 reasons:

1.) Cows won't leave the pasture and give birth elsewhere due to an obstruction.
2.) Cows aren't an endangered species.

I hope this lawsuit backfires and bankrupts the condo association.


Maybe we should haul in some cows to graze on their front lawn.:floor:

[sowalgayboi]

Maybe we should haul in some cows to graze on their front lawn.:floor:

I'd much rather go set up a tent city on their beach. Then when they call the Sheriff's department, to remove me, be told, "I'm sorry that's private beach and we can't remove anything from it."

[idlewind]

I'd much rather go set up a tent city on their beach. Then when they call the Sheriff's department, to remove me, be told, "I'm sorry that's private beach and we can't remove anything from it."


I like that idea too, call the new sheriff and see if we can get a date set.:biggrin:

( just kidding):cool:

[Jychf]

My wife and I had discussed an idea to give vacationers an incentive to remove articles from the beach (not that the welfare of nesting turtles and beautiful clean beaches aren't enough incentive).
We talked about turn in service where the individual/family gets a credit for every item they turn in and can use that credit the next time they visit to recieve one of each item free of charge...also, using the depot as a discount "store" for vacationers to purchase used items at an even lower cost which in turn would educate them about the turn in incentive. Just an idea, I know not everyone is as concerned about recycling and keeping our beaches clean as others are...