Dept. of Army Notification of Public Notice

[JustBeachy]

Anyone receive a 'letter' (http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/regulatory/pnwebshare/Florida_Public_Notices/20080516-saj-2007-05152.PDF) from the Jacksonville office of the Dept. of the Army?

I'm not really sure what to make of it all, as the url in the letter was bad, and when I was finally able to find the site, the actual public notice link was not available, so I had to 'back into' finding it. :idontno:

My concern is for the marine wildlife in and around our lakes/inlets, especially the turtles and the beach mice, which are already on an endangered list in Perdido Key.

Are there any meetings scheduled?

[BeachSiO2]

The notice you received is from USACE regarding the 30A Beach Restoration Project. Maybe this will help provide some background information as it is updated monthly.

http://www.protectwaltoncountybeaches.com/Future_Initiatives.asp

The planning for the project has been under way since 2004/05 and to date three or four workshops have been held. It has also been mentioned in a variety of sowal threads if you search for 30A beach restoration. Yes, there will be more workshops as it moves along, and hopefully they will be better attended. They are typically noticed in the sun, beach breeze, on the sowal website, radio and press releases are written asking anyone who has any interest to please attend.

Also, it is discussed in the TDC's monthly beach management committee meeting held at 8:30 am at the TDC the second Thursday of every month. If you have any questions, you should contact Tracy Louthain at the TDC at (850) 267-1216 and if she doesn't have the answer immediately, she will track it down for you.

[JustBeachy]

Thank you! And your url worked much better than theirs! Go figure... ;-)

[BeachSiO2]

Thank you! And your url worked much better than theirs! Go figure... ;-)

No problem. Keep an eye on the website as it is changed at the beginning of every month.

[DuneLaker]

Has the impact of removing the sand from ancient dunes underwater out in the Gulf and spreading them around on the current shore been studied? How might this change wave action of approaching storms? We have our primary and secondary dunes for protection on shore. Do these underwater dunes also provide protection? Has an archeological assessment been made? There must be tons of artifacts from past native populations out there in addition to pirate and explorer booty.

[BeachSiO2]

1. Has the impact of removing the sand from ancient dunes underwater out in the Gulf and spreading them around on the current shore been studied? 2. How might this change wave action of approaching storms? 3. We have our primary and secondary dunes for protection on shore. Do these underwater dunes also provide protection? 4. Has an archeological assessment been made? There must be tons of artifacts from past native populations out there in addition to pirate and explorer booty.

I added numbers to your questions in hopes I can answer some of them I am answering them based on data collected for the 30-A project. Other projects may have different answers.

1. Yes, it is a permit requirement to assess the impact caused by removal of sand from offshore.

2. The water depths from which the sand is being removed should have no impact as they are outside of the depth pf closure and active beach area. Keep in mind these sites are a few miles offshore, well offshore of the sand bar.

3. The sand bar that you can see from shore does function as a speed bump, but not where the sand is coming from for this project. That is why the sand is not taken from the sand bar, or within the active beach area

4. Yes, an archaeological assessment is required of the borrow area in addition to seismic and magnetometer studies to ensure their are no artifacts or other items within the borrow area. Additionally, in the unlikely event that something is found, the permit requires you to stop work immediately and contact the state's Archaeological "group" to come out.

[TooFarTampa]

I got the same notice JustBeachy. Glad you posted this. Here is the direct link to the PDF file, containing info on the project:

http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/regulatory/pnwebshare/Florida_Public_Notices/20080516saj-2007-5152.PDF

I have not had a chance to read through it yet but I'm interested in others' comments.

There was indeed a typo in the notice printed. :roll: The web address to look this up yourself should have only one "saj" in it, not two.

[scooterbug44]

4. Yes, an archaeological assessment is required of the borrow area in addition to seismic and magnetometer studies to ensure their are no artifacts or other items within the borrow area. Additionally, in the unlikely event that something is found, the permit requires you to stop work immediately and contact the state's Archaeological "group" to come out.

Is there any oversight for this?

I remember some impressive amounts of archeological artifacts in Rome ending up in the dump, because contractors wanted to make their Jubilee deadlines.

[BeachSiO2]

Is there any oversight for this?

I remember some impressive amounts of archeological artifacts in Rome ending up in the dump, because contractors wanted to make their Jubilee deadlines.

In what way? There is nobody from the state who sits on the boat as its working 24/7. There are third party environmental monitors who are on the boats the whole time, and there is a Silent Inspector (think black box) that records everything and would record any equipment malfunction or change in dredging velocity that would likely occur if something is "hit". Plus there is a crew on the beach 24/7 that monitors what is coming out of the metal dredge pipes. This includes another construction observation company that would not turn their head the other way either. Finally, there is county oversight, and I can tell you from experience that beach building is not worth going to jail over.

That being said, I believe it is a felony if the contractor doesn't stop and there are only about 3 companies in the US that can do this size of a project so they don't mess around. Not to mention it would likely damage the dredge.

[Andy A.]

Thank you! And your url worked much better than theirs! Go figure... ;-)
That is because the website given in their letter was in error. Also, Mr. Dale Beter can be reached at his Panama City office by calling (850) 763-0717 Ext. 57.

[DuneLaker]

Thanks so far for responses BeachSi02.
Followup on Question 3. Is there a depth or distance from shore that a sand dune or sand bar is no longer considered such? Since Florida's shore was 100 miles out 10,000 years ago, probably less here on the Emerald Coast, what do scientists call the old sand dunes now covered by water? I still wonder about the effect old dunes miles out have on waves and surge coming in.

I don't understand "outside of the depth pf closure" so need some further explaination understanding response to Question 2.

Just from one Beagle to another Beagle.

[BeachSiO2]

Thanks so far for responses BeachSi02.
Followup on Question 3. Is there a depth or distance from shore that a sand dune or sand bar is no longer considered such? Since Florida's shore was 100 miles out 10,000 years ago, probably less here on the Emerald Coast, what do scientists call the old sand dunes now covered by water? I still wonder about the effect old dunes miles out have on waves and surge coming in.

I don't understand "outside of the depth pf closure" so need some further explaination understanding response to Question 2.

Just from one Beagle to another Beagle.

No problem, glad there is actually interest ;-)

As for your followup on 3, a sand bar is "typically" a feature that provides protection to the beach and dune system under conditions that can be reasonably expected. Those old deposits are typically called sand ridges, or historical beach complexes.

Not to get to complex but a wave will not typically interact with the ocean floor unless the wave is roughly 75% of the water depth. In other words, it would take over a 23 foot wave to interact with the ocean floor if the water depth is 30 feet. NO MATTER WHAT JIM CANTORE OR THE WEATHER CHANNEL says this not very likely in the open ocean or on the Gulf Shelf, which leads to number two.

The depthe of closure is the measured water depth at which there is no noticeable change in sand elevation. In other words, through surveying, we can identify where the beach profile or shape is no longer changing. This location will always be offshore of the sand bar and the active beach. If the elevation is not changing, then the waves are not having an impacting on the ocean bottom.

In the case of the 30A project the borrow site exceeds 50-feet in water depth in some locations. Not to mention even if a wave "might have been" broken in the area where the sand is removed, it WILL BE broken where the sand bar is so the removal of sand is a non-factor. I hope this doesn't muddy it up even more but please ask more questions if it does.

One beagle back to another ;-)

[Mermaid]

We got the letter as well so I appreciate hearing about it in plain English. :clap:

[DuneLaker]

I'm still concerned and not in favor of this project. The feel of the sand from 50 plus feet and miles out, will be different than the fluffy stuff that has naturally washed up and blown in over the years. We could lose that magic. Why put the wildlife in the area through this disruption? Money might be better spent in giving people a grant to move their home back so it won't fall in the Gulf during their or their grandchildren's lifetime. We should hold on like crazy to our natural beaches. Particularly, stay away from the Coastal Dune Lakes, their outfalls and State Parks.

[Andy A.]

Kurt, while this issue is very interesting, a lot of the same or similar info is posted in two places. Shouldn't it all be in "All About SoWal" or Gov and Politics in "SoWal Community?

[SGB]

Hey BeachSiO2 - It looks like there is a gap in the beach restoration at the mouth of the dune lakes, but will this be enough to ensure that the lakes outflow as they do now? Won't the sand eventually fill itself in from either side of the outflow of the lake and will it make it very difficult for the natural outflow to happen? Looking forward to your clear and excellent response - your posts remind me of another guy that used to be on here.... hummm.

[Miss Kitty]

Hey BeachSiO2 - It looks like there is a gap in the beach restoration at the mouth of the dune lakes, but will this be enough to ensure that the lakes outflow as they do now? Won't the sand eventually fill itself in from either side of the outflow of the lake and will it make it very difficult for the natural outflow to happen? Looking forward to your clear and excellent response - your posts remind me of another guy that used to be on here.... hummm.

Also, are those gaps in restoration indicated by the blue marks at WC, Seaside and Rosemary? What gives? Thanks for the info and links!

[BeachSiO2]

As for gaps, there is not only a gap at the Coastal dune lakes but the project is also tapered, meaning that less sand is placed on the beaches that are closer to the outfall. This limits the immediate movement or spreading of sand east or west. As this is a beach the sand will eventually move east and west however but whether or not the placed sand will be moving at a rate as great as the natural movement will be based on the size of waves that impact those areas of the beach.

MK- yes there are also other gaps. For example there is a gap from the eastern end of WaterColor to the western end of Grayton where the 4 houses begin so there will be no sand placed near the Western Lake Outfall or where the soiree is typically held ;-).

The reason why those areas are skipped is due to the fact that this is a storm protection project and the only thing in those areas are wide sandy beaches with dunes. The other three gaps include Topsail Hill State Preserve, the area at Big and Little Redfish Lake (Bannerman Beach Lane area), and Deer Lake State Park to east of Camp Creek Lake near Pelican Pointe Camp Creek Lake.

EDIT: I have been reminded that I am not the point of contact for the TDC on these issues as it is Tracy Louthain so I will not be answering any more questions directly on the board unless they are VERY general. It helps to have only one person speaking about the project to limit any confusion that could occur, and trust me it does when multiple people answer questions!!

To that end, if you email Tracy at tlouthain@beachesofsouthwalton.com or call her at (850) 267-1216 she will be able to answer your questions, or track down your answers. Additionally, all inquiries will be added to the FAQ that can be found at http://www.protectwaltoncountybeaches.com/phaseII_faq.asp. The new FAQ is being updated with new questions and will be posted online by tomorrow (Friday).