I still love W

[NoHall]

So there.

Do your worst. I'm going to bed without bothering to explain myself. God Bless America!!!

[/URL][URL="http://irritable-bowel-syndrome.tumblr.com/"]http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/scared/scared0012.gif (http://www.sowal.com/bb/%5Burl=http://irritable-bowel-syndrome.tumblr.com/%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/scared/scared0012.gif%5B/img%5D%5B/url%5D)

[MissCritter]

I'll bite. Johnny Walker? Will Smith? Worms? Watermelon? :idontno:

[NoHall]

I'll bite. Johnny Walker? Will Smith? Worms? Watermelon? :idontno:
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m254/benzo411/WstillpresidentBumpSTKR083106006.jpg

[NoHall]

I've already confessed that I think that global warming is a load of hooey, too. I only recycle when it's convenient, and I use a lot more than one square of toilet paper per visit.

Did I also mention that I'm an evangelical Christian and I never, ever want to own a dog?

Come on, people--show me some hate! :wave:

[seacrestgirl]

I thought you were going to bed! :biggrin:

Are you trying to start a frenzy so that you have something to do when you can't sleep and get back up later? :idontno:

You are one brave chick---I'll give you that

[NoHall]

Does no one else like a good pillow fight before bed?

I really love all you bleeding heart liberals...:wub:

[Miss Kitty]

I've already confessed that I think that global warming is a load of hooey, too. I only recycle when it's convenient, and I use a lot more than one square of toilet paper per visit.

Did I also mention that I'm an evangelical Christian and I never, ever want to own a dog?

Come on, people--show me some hate! :wave:

Do you play golf? :wave:

P.S. You get the award for getting me to post today! :floor:

[MissCritter]

For God's sake, you teach teenage boys. Hasn't God punished you enough? :biggrin:

[NoHall]

Do you play golf? :wave:

P.S. You get the award for getting me to post today! :floor:

I WIN! I WIN!!!

Good night, darlings. Have funn...:wave:

[organicmama]

You live in the "I still love W" capital of the world............... I can't blame you for it. You're stuck right smack in the middle of it up there. Living in Alpharetta drove me nutz because of all the W stickers. Athens was only better because it has the hippie townies that are liberals.:biggrin: Other than that, it was W there too!

And you & I both say hooie, so I can't be mad atcha.

[kurt]

I've already confessed that I think that global warming is a load of hooey, too. I only recycle when it's convenient, and I use a lot more than one square of toilet paper per visit.

Did I also mention that I'm an evangelical Christian and I never, ever want to own a dog?

Come on, people--show me some hate! :wave:

It's fixin' to rain red on you. :lol:

[NoHall]

It's fixin' to rain red on you. :lol:

I just want attention.

[flspearit]

GOD BLESS ALL NATIONS!!


GW is a freakin' idiot
you are the only supporter left, I'm sure.
enjoy


I can't wait till his ass moves back to the ranch!!!:clap:

[rapunzel]

Good for you, NoHall.

I like the smell of paint fumes and gasoline.

[InletBchDweller]

It's fixin' to rain red on you. :lol: I thought that thunderstorm already came through today...:floor:

GOD BLESS ALL NATIONS!!


GW is a freakin' idiot
you are the only supporter left, I'm sure.
enjoy


I can't wait till his ass moves back to the ranch!!!:clap: nope, another supporter here :wave:

[organicmama]

through today...:floor:

nope, another supporter here :wave:

Yeah & we still :wub: you, too, either way!:biggrin:

[Beach Runner]

I think W is adorable.:wub:

[organicmama]

I think W is adorable.:wub:

It ain't gonna work.:wub:

[NoHall]

It ain't gonna work.:wub:

Oh, honey, it already worked. I wanted to see if SoWallers could have a pillow fight about politics, and everybody but one has stayed happy so far.

I feel like I got to roll y'all's yard...it's good to see there are good sports on here.

[organicmama]

Oh, honey, it already worked. I wanted to see if SoWallers could have a pillow fight about politics, and everybody but one has stayed happy so far.

I feel like I got to roll y'all's yard...it's good to see there are good sports on here.


:floor::wub::floor::wub: You've gotta be a good sport to be Sowaller.... most of the time!

[peapod1980]

Well, I still love you even though you love W. ;-)
Kitty, I'll take today's award for making me post.

[aleonard]

So there.

Do your worst. I'm going to bed without bothering to explain myself. God Bless America!!!

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/scared/scared0012.gif (http://irritable-bowel-syndrome.tumblr.com/)

I love you nuthall but..........

http://www.sowal.com/bb/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=439

[flspearit]

take the time to learn about the many accomplishments of our president





http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8002

[Dune-AHH]

I just want attention.

NO! Really??:yikes:
.
.
You are clearly a bonafide sadist who relishes being spanked.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
And I adore you anyway (but the leather face mask might not be your best look :lol:).

[scooterbug44]

take the time to learn about the many accomplishments of our president


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8002



That link deserves its own thread! I knew most of it, but it's still shocking when it's all listed together. :blink:

Nice try, Nohall! I voted for dumbya the first time and don't like cats or rat dogs, so can't get too fired up! :biggrin:

[ShallowsNole]

Being staunchly Republican (when it suits me), I voted for W when he was first elected. Not wanting the world to view America as a once-great country that is now a bunch of wusses, I voted for W last time too. (The other reason I helped re-elect him is that I will not support a presidential candidate that takes longer to fix their hair in the morning than I do, but I digress...)

If the president had term limits and he was running again, I am not sure I could do it again. I will probably vote Republican again, but first I seriously want to hear both candidates' definition of what victory in the Middle East, or the War on Terror, should mean, and how they plan to keep our soil safe from terrorists at the same time. :scratch:

So, NoHall, I love you too. :biggrin:

[flspearit]

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Politicians/Bush_accomplishments.html

[flspearit]

War Criminal

[aleonard]

I ran across this link yesterday. I think it's very interesting to see how advertisers use and view him across the world.

Portrayal of George W. Bush in international advertisements

George W. Bush is undoubtedly one of the most popular figures of current times. He's infamous for many things he misspoke and his views on how to handle national security. His ideology affected not only the United States, but the whole world in a major way. No wonder he's been on top of mind for many creatives and became the hero of numerous advertisements in the last few years. Here is a collection of some of the most interesting ads that dissect his character in order to sell an idea or a product. You be the judge whether they are successful in achieving this objective.

http://creativebits.org/inspiration/portrayal_of_george_w_bush_in_international_advert isements

[Tootsie]

I think W is adorable.:wub:

oh BR. you and my mom. she thinks of him like a little mis-understood, slightly naughty little boy who loves jesus. I'm going to vomit if I don't step away from this thread.

I do appreciate nohall et al's loyalty though. I felt the same about Clinton right about the time when everyone thought he was the worst president ever. but that was a different story, and much different consequences for the country, however you may choose to think of them.

sorry I can't remain lighthearted about this subject, it will take me a long time to get over "W". we need some kind of support group.


That link deserves its own thread! I knew most of it, but it's still shocking when it's all listed together. :blink:

Nice try, Nohall! I voted for dumbya the first time and don't like cats or rat dogs, so can't get too fired up! :biggrin:

scoot - I could have gone the rest of my days without this knowledge. I am going to wipe it from my memory now. please don't speak of it ever again.;-)

[Geo]

So there.

Do your worst. I'm going to bed without bothering to explain myself. God Bless America!!!

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/scared/scared0012.gif (http://irritable-bowel-syndrome.tumblr.com/)

I'm fascinated and crave more. Do tell us- What do you love about him? Why do you love him?

I am not planning on lobbing anything red at you but I love your smiley!!!

:)

[Minnie]

Do you play golf? :wave:

P.S. You get the award for getting me to post today! :floor:

Glad you did, I love the photo of your doggie, it always makes me happy. :D

[Gypsea]

NoHall I :wub: you, just not your choice in men. ;-)

[Gypsea]

take the time to learn about the many accomplishments of our president






http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8002





That pretty much sums it up. Sad but true. :eek: Now who can take us to recovery?

[NoHall]

Being staunchly Republican (when it suits me), I voted for W when he was first elected. Not wanting the world to view America as a once-great country that is now a bunch of wusses, I voted for W last time too. (The other reason I helped re-elect him is that I will not support a presidential candidate that takes longer to fix their hair in the morning than I do, but I digress...)

If the president had term limits and he was running again, I am not sure I could do it again. I will probably vote Republican again, but first I seriously want to hear both candidates' definition of what victory in the Middle East, or the War on Terror, should mean, and how they plan to keep our soil safe from terrorists at the same time. :scratch:

So, NoHall, I love you too. :biggrin:

If I may be serious for a moment (I promise it will only be a moment) I will confess to you all that I'm at a political loss. Especially after having the honor of hearing from the highly-educated and wise Rapunzel, I believe in the lofty and idealistic ideas that come from the Democratic party. But I do not believe in the Democratic party itself. It scares me--there is too much micromanagement and control. I believe that folks like Hannity and Limbaugh are correct when they say that it's dangerously close to socialism. (That is not a full-scale endorsement of what they say, only and isolated example.)

However, the Republican party is not much better, and their methods have been completely hamstrung by partisan crapola over the last 8 years. I was having a discussion with a total stranger at dinner last night about voting Libertarian. That would be an attractive option if there was a decent candidate...

I believe the war in Iraq was inevitable. It began when I was a college student, if I remember correctly, and was put on hold while Clinton was in his office discussing the fate of our country with his interns and his wife was plotting her reign of terror. I don't like that we're at war and I wish it could end. I work at a military school, for Pete's sake. I have friends there--one of my co-workers just finished his 2nd tour. He's one of our finest teachers, a father of four young children, and has been my friend and neighbor since we were children. (A google search for "Kevin Jarrard (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22kevin+jarrard%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)" will give you 901 hits. Go ahead--read about this amazing man.)

I also believe that he inherited problems other than Iraq--9/11, Katrina, so many of the things I see W blamed for were time bombs that were set long before he was in office. As president and commander-in-chief, he certainly is the one in charge when they explode. But it's just plain silly to lay the blame for them on him.

As for his grammar...good grief...I can't say "nuclear" correctly half the time, either. I can't say "conscience" to save my life. I can give you a list of other words, yet I aced public speaking in college and still speak in public regularly and without reservation. Can we find something less ridiculous to talk about, like maybe his ears?

I read this in Time (http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1733748_1733757_1735529,00.html) this week, written by Italy's prime minister:

One time, Bush told me that it is reasonable to have doubts, but not to have so many doubts that you cannot make a decision. It's up to historians to judge his presidency, but whatever fate history holds for him, I am sure that George W. Bush will be remembered as a leader of ideals, courage and sincerity. Personally, I will always remember him as a friend, a true man who loves his family, understands the meaning of friendship and is grateful toward America's allies around the world.

This is what I like about him. (And for those of you who keep returning to spew hate, do it somewhere else. Fear-mongering doesn't work with me and your useless posts have earned you a coveted spot on my ignore list.)

[Andy A.]

I can't wait till his ass moves back to the ranch!!!:clap:[/quote]
I'd much rather see Harry Reid move back to Searchlight, NV and Nancy Pelosi back to San Francisco

[flspearit]

Fear-mongering doesn't work with me and your useless posts have earned you a coveted spot on my ignore list.)[/quote]

fear-mongering doesn't work on you?
hahaha
but you think the war was inevitable
why?
because GW scared you after 9/11
BTW...he didn't inherit it, he knew about it & let it happen to get control of oil

ignore list
ignorance list, more like it

UESLESS.....way too many facts for ya?

[scooterbug44]

Yes, there were major issues present and evolving pre-Bush presidency, but I do not believe that things like the Iraq war were either unavoidable or had to be handled the way they were.

I am realistic enough that I know sometimes war is inevitable and that natural disasters happen. I am also practical enough to know that a minor disaster can become a major one through mishandling.

Both Katrina and Iraq are major examples of idiocy, inefficiency, unqualified appointees, and billions funneled to pad friends' pockets.

[Tootsie]

nohall, I very respectfully disagree with every thing you just said up there girlfriend. it is very interesting how different folks really do have different strokes.

but, this is what I can't agree with above all..
But it's just plain silly to lay the blame for them on him. no one lays blame on bush for 9/11 or katrina. we absolutely do blame him for the war and so many thousands upon thousands killed. we do blame him for his moronic actions taken in these catastrophic incidents.

and regarding his incompetency in speaking as well as thinking on his feet, it is certainly a major flaw in a world leader. a very serious one. one that makes me

anyone who says that limbaugh is right about anything, especially his view on democrats, well, I just don't know what to say to that one.

and this is not about spewing hate about bush. we are very upset with our president and his administration and the job that they have done. we have every right to be angry and upset. I do not hate Bush, I even kinda like the guy in a twisted kind of way. I hate that he's president very much. I prayed that he would do well, but he's done far more damage than I even thought he was capable of doing. this subject is very hard for me to ignore. where's the Get Over Bush (GOB) support group?


I feel I must add that when he was elected I felt a sense of panic, and I guess I still do when I hear there are americans who actually approve of his job as leader of our country. we may continue down this very path another 8 years, depending on the outcome of the election. it makes me very panicked indeed.

[flspearit]

everyone in this country should be outraged:pissed:

[Andy A.]

Fear-mongering doesn't work with me and your useless posts have earned you a coveted spot on my ignore list.)

fear-mongering doesn't work on you?
hahaha
but you think the war was inevitable
why?
because GW scared you after 9/11
BTW...he didn't inherit it, he knew about it & let it happen to get control of oil

ignore list
ignorance list, more like it

UESLESS.....way too many facts for ya?[/quote]
Maybe you should re-read NoHall' last post and cogitate on it a bit. She is very close to being right on the mark in most of it. I am not going to attempt to explain why Bush will eventually be remembered as a good president just as Harry Truman, who was hated by many, finally was, to you as from your coments made above you evidently do not have the common sense to analyse anything presented in a serious vein. You aren't being asked to agree, just to be civil. I admit I am not always so, either, but there is a way to get your point across and still remain courteous. I'll be the first to admit I am not always that, either. BTW, I don't know where the "ignore" button is and wouldn't use it if I did. If you don't like what a poster says, skip the post and go on to another. I think your "ignorance list" comment was just that. Ignorant. Now go to your room and don't come out until you can play nice.

[Mango]

where's the Get Over Bush (GOB) support group?

Here........you must have missed it. It's all encompassing. :lol:

http://sowal.com/bb/group.php?groupid=14

[flspearit]

I'm not skipping any post :D
hard to face, I know, but W is the biggest mistake EVER

If only there was an I.Q. qualification for president:confused:

[NoHall]

I've had my say about him, and I will leave it there. (Except to say that I'm pretty sure it was Hannity, not Limbaugh...I can't remember the last time I actually listened to Limbaugh! Forgive me for that, Toots...I don't like right-wing hate-spewers, either.)

As for the future, I would like to see a president who will encourage people to be responsible for themselves rather than one who will promise to "save" them from the evils in America.

It's silly and trite-sounding, but I believe in making lemonade with lemons, and that's what I have seen for the last 8 years.

Please excuse me while I start another thread. I want y'all to see something good that came out of the war.

[Andy A.]

I'm not skipping any post :D
hard to face, I know, but W is the biggest mistake EVER

If only there was an I.Q. qualification for president:confused:
If there was, from what I've seen from you today, you wouldn't make the grade. Please show me the error of my impression.

[Tootsie]

Here........you must have missed it. It's all encompassing. :lol:

http://sowal.com/bb/group.php?groupid=14

I certainly did miss this. its a rather select group, heh? I'll submit my application for membership immediately!:wave:

[flspearit]

to honest and smart for politricks:D

[JustaLocal]

I don't blame Bush for the war. What I remember during the entire lead up to the war was that I was constantly amazed that Sadam would not relent. How many times did he defy the UN? Utterly unbelievable. He had every chance up to the last minute to prevent the war. The day before we went in he could have stopped it - literally. I blame Sadam.

[NoHall]

Here........you must have missed it. It's all encompassing. :lol:

http://sowal.com/bb/group.php?groupid=14

You're a funny gull! But I don't want to hang out with people with issues. It would only smear my perfection...

[flspearit]

something good from the war??? (occupation)

people are dying for NOTHING
we are the terrorists at this point

[aleonard]

to honest and smart for politricks:D

I don't like W either, but if you are too smart for politricks, then you are smart enough to know the best way to bring others around to your way of thinking is to serve your ideas to them on a silver platter and not on the tip of a spear.

[NoHall]

nohall, I very respectfully disagree with every thing you just said up there girlfriend.
especially this:


no one lays blame on bush for 9/11 or katrina. we absolutely do blame him for the war and so many thousands upon thousands killed. we do blame him for his moronic actions taken in these catastrophic incidents.

and regarding his incompetency in speaking as well as thinking on his feet, it is certainly a major flaw in a world leader. a very serious one. one that makes me

anyone who says that limbaugh is right about anything, especially his view on democrats, well, I just don't know what to say to that one.

and this is not about spewing hate about bush. we are very upset with our president and his administration and the job that they have done. we have every right to be angry and upset. I do not hate Bush, I even kinda like the guy in a twisted kind of way. I hate that he's president very much. I prayed that he would do well, but he's done far more damage than I even thought he was capable of doing. this subject is very hard for me to ignore. where's the Get Over Bush (GOB) support group?


I feel I must add that when he was elected I felt a sense of panic, and I guess I still do when I hear there are americans who actually approve of his job as leader of our country. it makes me very panicked indeed.

I have the same gut feeling about folks you like. Sometimes I wonder if we're just wired that way.

I hope that the other folks reading this thread realize that I'm grateful for Tootsie and others who speak what they believe. She and I are on opposite sides of politics, but I'm okay with that. (And she has made me feel like she is, too.)

Toots, I'm grateful to you for reminding me that I'm not the only person in this country with an opinion. Keep fighting the good fight, dahlin!

[Andy A.]

I don't like W either, but if you are too smart for politricks, then you are smart enough to know the best way to bring others around to your way of thinking is to serve your ideas to them on a silver platter and not on the tip of a spear.
Well said, aleonard, well said. I am slowly but surely learning that from this board but it is reallllllly hard for me.

[flspearit]

I've been doing that whole silver platter dance for the past 6 years

doesn't work
people are so dumbed down by the media & goverment drugs they don't care that our entire constitution has been stripped away


bring on the SPEARS
(matches my name):D

[scooterbug44]

It's silly and trite-sounding, but I believe in making lemonade with lemons, and that's what I have seen for the last 8 years.

Please excuse me while I start another thread. I want y'all to see something good that came out of the war.

Nohall, I didn't want your thread about your coworker's wonderful action to get sidetracked by a war debate so I am posting a response here.

Your friend is a great person who I feel would have done something laudable wherever he was. His actions were necessary BECAUSE of the poorly planned and fought war and its toll on the infrastructure of Iraq, not a representation of a good thing that came from it.

IMO the fact that he went outside the government of both her country AND his own to get a little girl lifesaving medical care shows how flawed the system is and the level of faith he has in it.

[Tootsie]

I have the same gut feeling about folks you like. Sometimes I wonder if we're just wired that way.

I hope that the other folks reading this thread realize that I'm grateful for Tootsie and others who speak what they believe. She and I are on opposite sides of politics, but I'm okay with that. (And she has made me feel like she is, too.)

Toots, I'm grateful to you for reminding me that I'm not the only person in this country with an opinion. Keep fighting the good fight, dahlin!

it must be in the wiring because I was "brought up" to think exactly as you do, but it never did work for me.

I edited my above post to include this, wanted to be sure you saw it:

it is very interesting how different folks really do have different strokes.

[flspearit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veO_bGXuR6U

[NoHall]

Nohall, I didn't want your thread about your coworker's wonderful action to get sidetracked by a war debate so I am posting a response here.

Your friend is a great person who I feel would have done something laudable wherever he was. His actions were necessary BECAUSE of the poorly planned and fought war and its toll on the infrastructure of Iraq, not a representation of a good thing that came from it.

IMO the fact that he went outside the government of both her country AND his own to get a little girl lifesaving medical care shows how flawed the system is and the level of faith he has in it.

I both agree and disagree with this statement, and I'm glad you made it.

I agree with you that the system is flawed and that the best way to do a great thing is to not rely on the system. But I disagree in that you seem to say (and I know you will correct me if I'm misinterpreting you!) that we should rely on the system.

Kevin believes in the power of individuals to do the right thing for one another, individually. Specifically, he believes that God does good things through us individually if we trust God to do those things. That was where he put his faith, not in any government.

This is how I believe our government was founded--that we should be free to make our decisions without the burden of an oppressive government structure. I believe in freedom, for better or worse.

Scooter, tell me what you mean by this:
His actions were necessary BECAUSE of the poorly planned and fought war and its toll on the infrastructure of Iraq The war didn't cause these children's heart defects, obviously (and I'm sure you don't mean to say that.) But do you think that they would have been treated well under Hussein's Iraq if we had never shown up? Kevin seems to think that the people in the city where he served were grateful for our presence there--the parents of both of these children sought his help because he is an American Marine.

Thank you, too, for bringing this debate over to this thread. That is a kind, respectful gesture.

[jdarg]

Our soldiers are wonderful and I have respect for all of them, but that does not mean I have to support our governments actions in Iraq. I never understand the thinking that "supporting the President and the War" translates into supporting the troops. I wish I could figure out how supporting this President translates into patriotism.

I love the wonderful stories coming out of Iraq, but honestly, we didn't go over there to help sick children, adopt puppies, and build new schools. These are nice things that came out of a horrible mistake, and they might make us feel better, but the mistake is still there, red, glaring, and awful. NoHall, your soldier friend and others like him are heroes, and I am proud of them, which I can be, even though I do not support the reason they are in Iraq in the first place.

Bush did not cause this war all by himself, but his hands are very bloody, and his handling of the war every step of the way has been disasterous.

[scooterbug44]

My comment wasn't that the war caused the children's heart defects, but that it did severely damage the country's health care system and ability to provide basic services.

Wasn't part of the justification for the war that we would improve these people's lives? Approximately 4 million refugees would dispute that that has occurred.

A degree of self reliance is good, but you should also be able to depend on your government. I would certainly hope that when building a democracy and "liberating" people we'd have enough human decency to be considering the needs of dying children brought to our attention by our own service personnel.

[flspearit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSeuLsNV4CA&feature=related

[NoHall]

My comment wasn't that the war caused the children's heart defects, but that it did severely damage the country's health care system and ability to provide basic services.

Wasn't part of the justification for the war that we would improve these people's lives? Approximately 4 million refugees would dispute that that has occurred.

A degree of self reliance is good, but you should also be able to depend on your government. I would certainly hope that when building a democracy and "liberating" people we'd have enough human decency to be considering the needs of dying children brought to our attention by our own service personnel.

Honestly, to prove my point I would have to gather some more information, but that's exactly what I'm arguing. I do have some information just from Major Jarrard's story.*

From a recent article about Kevin:

"‘Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget what your eyes have seen,'" Jarrard said, repeating the words of Moses from a verse from the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy.


He saw a lot in Haditha, an Iraqi town of about 90,000. However, nothing touched him more than ailing children, whose lives were in jeopardy without surgery not available in Iraq.


At Christmas, Jarrard began contacting friends at home about the plight of Amenah, a little girl who was born with a severe heart condition. He thought of the example his father, Tom, a Gainesville attorney who died of cancer just as Kevin was preparing to leave for Iraq last year.


"Dad didn't talk about helping folks, he just did it," Kevin said. "It was always a family affair. We'd just get in the truck and just did stuff..."


...But his work didn't stop there. Jarrard, Nadeau and Navy Lt. Cmdr. James Lee decided to tackle the project of rebuilding the dilapidated Haditha hospital, the only facility in an area of 130,000 people.

Jarrard described the hospital as a sprawling, single-story facility that lacked modern equipment and didn't have air conditioning. Even if it did, it would have been hampered by the fact that many of the windows were previously blown out. "It looks like an old hospital we might see around here," Jarrard said.


The trio met with U.S. officials and tribal sheiks and received $4 million in U.S. support to repair the hospital.



I honestly don't know if the facility's blown-out windows were from the war over there. I believe that's probably a safe assumption. But it's also probably safe to assume that the facility's $4 million-dollar improvements will put it in better shape than it was in before the war.

*p.s. It may seem like sentimental whitewashing that I'm using one man's heartwarming story to back my arguments. That is not my intention; his story is just the most familiar resource I have right now. When I have a minute I will seek out other news that doesn't have to do with his extraordinary case.

[Gypsea]

While living on base in Monterey, CA our next door neighbor was Rick Sanchez. Rick has just published a book that should give us a good insight to how the war was fought. The title is Wiser in Battle: A Soldier's Story by Lt. General Ricardo Sanchez. The following is from Amazon:

Amid all of the criticisms of America's war in Iraq, one essential voice has remained silent—until now. In his groundbreaking new memoir, Wiser in Battle, Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, former commander of coalition forces in Iraq, reports back from the front lines of the global war on terror to provide a comprehensive and chilling exploration of America's historic military and foreign policy blunder.
With unflinching candor, Sanchez describes the chaos on the Iraqi battlefield caused by the Bush administration's misguided command of the military, as well as his own struggle to set the coalition on the path toward victory. Sanchez illuminates the fallout of the communication breakdown between the leadership on the front and the politicians in Washington, revealing fractious discussions he had with, among others, Ambassador Paul Bremer and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Drawing on his tenure on the ground, Sanchez shows how minor insurgent attacks grew into synchronized operations that finally ignited into a major insurgency and all-out civil war. He provides an insider's account of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, explaining the circumstances that led to the abuses, who perpetrated them, and what the formal investigations revealed—all the while reflecting on America's objectionable use of torture and the grave need for the country's leadership to pursue an ethical course of action in the war on terror. Sanchez also details the cynical use of the Iraq War for political gain in Washington and shows how the pressure of an around-the-clock news cycle drove and distorted critical battle decisions, such as troop drawdowns, the fight for Fallujah, and the transfer of sovereignty.
In addition, Sanchez shares the story of his career. He tells of the journey from his poverty-stricken youth on the Texas banks of the Rio Grande to joining the Reserve Officers' Training Corps at sixteen and later serving in Kosovo, Desert Shield and Desert Storm, and, ultimately, Iraq. At the time of his retirement, Sanchez was the highest-ranking Hispanic in the U.S. Army.
The first book written by a former on-site commander in Iraq, Wiser in Battle is essential reading for all who wish to understand the current war and the American military's role in the new century.


About the Author

Ricardo S. Sanchez is a former United States Army lieutenant general who served as commander of coalition ground forces in Iraq from June 2003 to June 2004. He was the highest-ranking Hispanic in the Army when he retired on November 1, 2006, culminating thirty-three years of Army service. Sanchez now lives in his home state of Texas.

[NoHall]

Gypsea, there are truly two sides to every story. I'm a ridiculous cock-eyed optimist...

I hope that by the time this thread sputters out I will understand that not every soldier is a Major Jarrard, and that others will realize that not all soldiers tortured the Iraqis.

My tongue-in-cheek point in starting this last night is that there is another side. I was baiting all of you to respond for this very reason--I want you to be heard, but there are quite a few of us here who don't see it "your way."

But I want to validate your side by acknowledging that I read it (and JDarg's thanks for it) and that it meant something to me. I hear all of you--Scooter, Toots, Aleo, Andy A., Punz...I just hope that whoever's "side" wins, we will continue the discussion as individuals. That's where we are all the same--we all have the same capacity to care about what is right.

[TooFarTampa]

I am not going to attempt to explain why Bush will eventually be remembered as a good president just as Harry Truman, who was hated by many, finally was,

I really want to understand this viewpoint, which I understand is held by Karl Rove and others still within the administration. I have read Truman by David McCullough (one of my favorite books btw) and while I know Truman was unshakable in decisions that were unpopular (and he eventually was lauded for his foresight) I don't see how as people they really compare. Bush's well-documented incuriousness and his tendency to surround himself completely with yes-people are what has ruined his presidency, IMO. It has been so very painful to watch. I am all for conviction, and I admire it because i have a tendency to overanalyze, but he has bungled so many things while blocking out all the other voices.

The execution of the war was bad enough, but the Katrina debacle was absolutely, completely unforgiveable. Yes it was unforgiveable at every level of government, but as Truman said, the buck stops here. Any political capital Bush had left was spent in August 2005.

[flspearit]

POWER TO THE PEACEFUL!


(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICL-4OnkOPA&feature=related)

[flspearit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YMwcXBePqE

[pgurney]

This is kind of funny...funny weird not funny humorous. I actually had the though that flspearit could be Karl Rove in costume.

I really want to understand this viewpoint, which I understand is held by Karl Rove and others still within the administration. I have read Truman by David McCullough (one of my favorite books btw) and while I know Truman was unshakable in decisions that were unpopular (and he eventually was lauded for his foresight) I don't see how as people they really compare. Bush's well-documented incuriousness and his tendency to surround himself completely with yes-people are what has ruined his presidency, IMO. It has been so very painful to watch. I am all for conviction, and I admire it because i have a tendency to overanalyze, but he has bungled so many things while blocking out all the other voices.

The execution of the war was bad enough, but the Katrina debacle was absolutely, completely unforgiveable. Yes it was unforgiveable at every level of government, but as Truman said, the buck stops here. Any political capital Bush had left was spent in August 2005.

[flspearit]

hahaha

my name is Kelly Wise

I know lots of people on here & in this community

[30A Skunkape]

I wonder how many of the people on here bellyaching about W actually bothered to vote. No response needed, just a shallow thought.:wave:

[jdarg]

I wonder how many of the people on here bellyaching about W actually bothered to vote. No response needed, just a shallow thought.:wave:


I don't think voting is an issue with this group. :wave:

[organicmama]

Gypsea, there are truly two sides to every story. I'm a ridiculous cock-eyed optimist...

I hope that by the time this thread sputters out I will understand that not every soldier is a Major Jarrard, and that others will realize that not all soldiers tortured the Iraqis.

My tongue-in-cheek point in starting this last night is that there is another side. I was baiting all of you to respond for this very reason--I want you to be heard, but there are quite a few of us here who don't see it "your way."

But I want to validate your side by acknowledging that I read it (and JDarg's thanks for it) and that it meant something to me. I hear all of you--Scooter, Toots, Aleo, Andy A., Punz...I just hope that whoever's "side" wins, we will continue the discussion as individuals. That's where we are all the same--we all have the same capacity to care about what is right.

NoHall, my dad's side of the family is all Army. I have uncles, cousins, nephews, etc. in the military still. My parents graduated from North Georgia. Here is a link regarding one of my favourite people of all time, my beloved Uncle Steve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Steven_Whitcomb By all means, my brothers & I have nicknamed him (privately) "the killing machine." He is a product of and a very integral part of the military. I also know the school where you teach. I have been there on numerous occasions. The reason that I am telling you this is because no matter whether my immediate family is a part of the military & the war, I do not support the war. As for the soldiers, I support them as human beings, but do not support our government's position &/or actions in Iraq at all.

I am reposting JDarg's comments below that I wholeheartedly agree with & could not put in better words. Being patriotic does not mean that I have to blindly accept the actions of our President. I have had this discussion with my father the duration of my adult life. That equation doesn't add up because it means that to be patriotic, I need to surrender my personal logic & allow group-think to be more important & influential than my own ability to make decisions on what I feel is right or wrong.

Dr. James Dowd at UGA did a great deal of research into the sociology of the military. It's quite interesting. I took his class a long, long time ago. Here's a link to his bio: http://uga.edu/soc/people/faculty/dowd_james.php

Our soldiers are wonderful and I have respect for all of them, but that does not mean I have to support our governments actions in Iraq. I never understand the thinking that "supporting the President and the War" translates into supporting the troops. I wish I could figure out how supporting this President translates into patriotism.

I love the wonderful stories coming out of Iraq, but honestly, we didn't go over there to help sick children, adopt puppies, and build new schools. These are nice things that came out of a horrible mistake, and they might make us feel better, but the mistake is still there, red, glaring, and awful. NoHall, your soldier friend and others like him are heroes, and I am proud of them, which I can be, even though I do not support the reason they are in Iraq in the first place.

Bush did not cause this war all by himself, but his hands are very bloody, and his handling of the war every step of the way has been disasterous.

[NoHall]

NoHall, my dad's side of the family is all Army. I have uncles, cousins, nephews, etc. in the military still. My parents graduated from North Georgia. Here is a link regarding one of my favourite people of all time, my beloved Uncle Steve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Steven_Whitcomb By all means, my brothers & I have nicknamed him (privately) "the killing machine." He is a product of and a very integral part of the military. I also know the school where you teach. I have been there on numerous occasions. The reason that I am telling you this is because no matter whether my immediate family is a part of the military & the war, I do not support the war. As for the soldiers, I support them as human beings, but do not support our government's position &/or actions in Iraq at all.

I am reposting JDarg's comments below that I wholeheartedly agree with & could not put in better words. Being patriotic does not mean that I have to blindly accept the actions of our President. I have had this discussion with my father the duration of my adult life. That equation doesn't add up because it means that to be patriotic, I need to surrender my personal logic & allow group-think to be more important & influential than my own ability to make decisions on what I feel is right or wrong.

Dr. James Dowd at UGA did a great deal of research into the sociology of the military. It's quite interesting. I took his class a long, long time ago. Here's a link to his bio: http://uga.edu/soc/people/faculty/dowd_james.php

Our soldiers are wonderful and I have respect for all of them, but that does not mean I have to support our governments actions in Iraq. I never understand the thinking that "supporting the President and the War" translates into supporting the troops. I wish I could figure out how supporting this President translates into patriotism.

I love the wonderful stories coming out of Iraq, but honestly, we didn't go over there to help sick children, adopt puppies, and build new schools. These are nice things that came out of a horrible mistake, and they might make us feel better, but the mistake is still there, red, glaring, and awful. NoHall, your soldier friend and others like him are heroes, and I am proud of them, which I can be, even though I do not support the reason they are in Iraq in the first place.

Bush did not cause this war all by himself, but his hands are very bloody, and his handling of the war every step of the way has been disasterous.

I'm glad you reposted JDarg's words because I managed to miss them the first time.

This is where I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. When I elect a president, I am agreeing that as commander in chief he will do what he believes is right. As a citizen, I am submitting to his authority.

I don't like war. I don't want soldiers to die, citizens to be killed or tortured, or any of the other awful direct and indirect results. But that was the decision I agreed to let him make when I voted for him. And if it had been Gore or Kerry instead, my obligation would be the same even though I voted against Gore and Kerry.

Almost weekly I have to remind one of my students that the only way to end a conversation (read "argument") with me is with "Yes, Ma'am." That doesn't mean that I assume that the student agrees with me, and I am certainly aware when he doesn't, but by submitting to what I have said he is allowing me to do what I believe is right, to do what I'm hired to do, and to make the class work for all the students.

My students are stuck with me and have no say, but we have a system to get rid of our commander if we want.

I don't have the same information at my disposal that Bush had at the start of the war. I assume that he was acting on the best intelligence that he had. If he had been Gore or Kerry and done the same thing (or done nothing) I would make the same argument because patriotism in the end is Esprit de Corps.

Another Republican quoted scripture when he said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Will we ever become a country who will stand behind the leaders we have elected?

[cp]

well said Nohall.There should be some respect for the office period. BTW I love your dealy in the classroom,they don't have to agree but you are in charge and are paid to be!

[Gypsea]

I'm glad you reposted JDarg's words because I managed to miss them the first time.

This is where I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. When I elect a president, I am agreeing that as commander in chief he will do what he believes is right. As a citizen, I am submitting to his authority.

I don't like war. I don't want soldiers to die, citizens to be killed or tortured, or any of the other awful direct and indirect results. But that was the decision I agreed to let him make when I voted for him. And if it had been Gore or Kerry instead, my obligation would be the same even though I voted against Gore and Kerry.

Almost weekly I have to remind one of my students that the only way to end a conversation (read "argument") with me is with "Yes, Ma'am." That doesn't mean that I assume that the student agrees with me, and I am certainly aware when he doesn't, but by submitting to what I have said he is allowing me to do what I believe is right, to do what I'm hired to do, and to make the class work for all the students.

My students are stuck with me and have no say, but we have a system to get rid of our commander if we want.

I don't have the same information at my disposal that Bush had at the start of the war. I assume that he was acting on the best intelligence that he had. If he had been Gore or Kerry and done the same thing (or done nothing) I would make the same argument because patriotism in the end is Esprit de Corps.

Another Republican quoted scripture when he said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Will we ever become a country who will stand behind the leaders we have elected?

Blind faith ~ I don't think so. I soooo wish W had listened to those more skilled in the arena of war such as Colin Powell. And you are right, when we vote for a president we do expect him to do what is right for the American people! But what if he doesn't? What if he lies to us about weapons of mass destruction and he takes us to war anyway? We should question our leaders and if we can't is this the America we want?

[jdarg]

well said Nohall.There should be some respect for the office period. BTW I love your dealy in the classroom,they don't have to agree but you are in charge and are paid to be!

The respect for the office and for America needs to start in that office. Sadly, it is ending in that office, and I hope the next President, be it Obama or McCain, can restore some respect for the office of the President of the United States, both here AND abroad.

[steeleing1]

When I elect a president, I am agreeing that as commander in chief he will do what he believes is right. As a citizen, I am submitting to his authority.


He works for us, the people, and is not a dictator or king. The word, submission, has no place in a democracy.

[30A Skunkape]

There isn't anything unpatriotic about criticizing a President during times of war or peace. With that said, there is a cult of negativity toward W that serves no productive purpose. Bush lied, kids died. Mission accomplished snicker snicker. F the president. Slapping the bumper sticker on your car proves membership in the fellowship of W bashers. But is that productive or somewhat selfish? How badly does it hurt the heart of a soldier's mom when she rolls up to a red light and the car in front of her is sporting such an uplifting message? What an outstanding lesson to our children that acceptable political thought can be boiled down to F'ing the President. It rubs me the wrong way. There are more productive ways to oppose any President's policies without contributing to an atmosphere of toxic cynicism;supporting his political opponents, writing letters to congressmen voicing your concerns and actually getting off your duff and voting come to mind. I strongly suspect there are folks posting on this board voicing hyper-criticism who didn't bother to vote in 2004, which is all the more shocking since the same non-voters were probably proclaiming (loudly) the 2000 election 'stolen'. To those nonparticipants I say tapa boca and do something productive to initiate change instead of wallowing in negativity (if you need guidance please study Obama's criticism of W's policies). Soapbox descended from.

[jdarg]

There isn't anything unpatriotic about criticizing a President during times of war or peace. With that said, there is a cult of negativity toward W that serves no productive purpose. Bush lied, kids died. Mission accomplished snicker snicker. F the president. Slapping the bumper sticker on your car proves membership in the fellowship of W bashers. But is that productive or somewhat selfish? How badly does it hurt the heart of a soldier's mom when she rolls up to a red light and the car in front of her is sporting such an uplifting message? What an outstanding lesson to our children that acceptable political thought can be boiled down to F'ing the President. It rubs me the wrong way. There are more productive ways to oppose any President's policies without contributing to an atmosphere of toxic cynicism;supporting his political opponents, writing letters to congressmen voicing your concerns and actually getting off your duff and voting come to mind. I strongly suspect there are folks posting on this board voicing hyper-criticism who didn't bother to vote in 2004, which is all the more shocking since the same non-voters were probably proclaiming (loudly) the 2000 election 'stolen'. To those nonparticipants I say tapa boca and do something productive to initiate change instead of wallowing in negativity (if you need guidance please study Obama's criticism of W's policies). Soapbox descended from.

Once again Skunky, I know that the people that I personally know that are posting on this thread do not in any way fit what you just posted. Most of the posters on this topic (on both sides of the issue) are educated, well-read, well-spoken, thoughtful, voted in many elections, write their congresspeople, and passionate about what they consider right and wrong.

Maybe you should clarify who exactly you are referring to, before lumping all of us that are critical of the current administration and its policies into the group of "toxic cynics".

[30A Skunkape]

Once again Skunky, I know that the people that I personally know that are posting on this thread do not in any way fit what you just posted. Most of the posters on this topic (on both sides of the issue) are educated, well-read, well-spoken, thoughtful, voted in many elections, write their congresspeople, and passionate about what they consider right and wrong.

Maybe you should clarify who exactly you are referring to, before lumping all of us that are critical of the current administration and its policies into the group of "toxic cynics".

I said 'strongly suspect' a number of posters don't vote. I know you vote, I strongly suspect Gypsea does. I know Punzy does. I strongly suspect NoHall does because I can't imagine anyone suffering the slings and arrows she does by actually defending W. I still strongly suspect that many posters in the political forum, and many more sporting cute bumper stickers don't vote. That isn't going out on a limb;we have a dismal voter participation on election day. And I suspect that in large part that apathy is contributed to by the politics of personal destruction that so many seem fond of. Maybe I should back up and say this doesn't just apply to W. Back in the good old days I was given a 'Willie wants your wallet' bumper sticker. I never put it on my car-it is tasteless.

[TooFarTampa]

I vote -- heck, I vote in every local election and try to research even the judges' races -- I read, I don't find any of this cute, or lighthearted, and in general I don't indulge in repeating quips. I don't have any bumper stickers. I know a lot of people who are like me, and quite a few of them (at least, I strongly suspect) are right here. Whichever "side" they are on.

[30A Skunkape]

I vote -- heck, I vote in every local election and try to research even the judges' races -- I read, I don't find any of this cute, or lighthearted, and in general I don't indulge in repeating quips. I don't have any bumper stickers. I know a lot of people who are like me, and quite a few of them (at least, I strongly suspect) are right here. Whichever "side" they are on.
Sorry to have forgotten your inclusion among the register of those who bother to show up.:wave:

[Smiling JOe]

So there.

Do your worst. I'm going to bed without bothering to explain myself. God Bless America!!!

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/scared/scared0012.gif (http://irritable-bowel-syndrome.tumblr.com/)

As they say in the south, "Bless your heart." :funn::wave:

[peapod1980]

I vote, I didn't vote for W, I have a "Peace is Patriotic" sticker on my car. I don't know if Skunky would construe that as a negative message, but it's what reflects my belief.
NoHall, to whom much is given, much is required.

[30A Skunkape]

I vote, I didn't vote for W, I have a "Peace is Patriotic" sticker on my car. I don't know if Skunky would construe that as a negative message, but it's what reflects my belief.
NoHall, to whom much is given, much is required.

No, Peace is Patriotic is fine in my opinion. Maybe I wasn't clear in my original post, but I have no problem with criticism...look at how Obama goes about it;he uses strong language using terms like 'failure' and 'disaster' describing Bush's foreign policy. That is great, I have no problem with that. I really respect the man because he has yet to criticize without offering well thought out arguments to back up his critique. That is how it should be. I just don't see how anyone can actually feel like it is productive to sport inflammatory cliches on the old bumper.

[TooFarTampa]

Sorry to have forgotten your inclusion among the register of those who bother to show up.:wave:

:wave:

As they say in the south, "Bless your heart." :funn::wave:

Soooo ... true .... :biggrin:

[Rita]

I vote, I didn't vote for W, I have a "Peace is Patriotic" sticker on my car. I don't know if Skunky would construe that as a negative message, but it's what reflects my belief.
NoHall, to whom much is given, much is required.
.

My 2000 vote didn't go to Bush but when he won I figured Ok, this guy isn't who I'd prefer in a President, but I figured he wouldn't do to much damage either, so I could live with it.

Then comes 2004 when I saw how wrong I had been to have believed that, yet when he won again I thought "OK, you got us into this mess maybe it's only fair that you have to be in charge of figuring a way out of it!" (sort of a serves you right attitude) Well, I was wrong about him again! He did nothing to try to get us out. The toughest part will be left to someone else. :(

And the O in my Obama bumper sticker is the peace symbol. .;-)


btw - NoHall, that's a great tomato dodging smiley! Best one I've seen in a while.



.

[Tootsie]

No, Peace is Patriotic is fine in my opinion. Maybe I wasn't clear in my original post, but I have no problem with criticism...look at how Obama goes about it;he uses strong language using terms like 'failure' and 'disaster' describing Bush's foreign policy. That is great, I have no problem with that. I really respect the man because he has yet to criticize without offering well thought out arguments to back up his critique. That is how it should be. I just don't see how anyone can actually feel like it is productive to sport inflammatory cliches on the old bumper.

I vote! even in a primary when florida dem votes do not count.

regarding bumper stickers - it is really a matter of personal taste, just like the confederate flag issue. the only one that has truly become a sickening one that I still see is the "W the President" sticker. I mean, what the hail is that suppose to mean? like we don't already know and must be reminded repeatedly of who is king, and we had better submit. I don't think so. in my opinion, this very sticker removes respect from the office... am I suppose to respect a man named Dubya who happens to be president?

[NoHall]

I vote, I didn't vote for W, I have a "Peace is Patriotic" sticker on my car. I don't know if Skunky would construe that as a negative message, but it's what reflects my belief.
NoHall, to whom much is given, much is required.

I totally agree. I was at graduation this morning--a very military, patriotic ceremony where old men and young boys stood at attention for the colors. You can't help but stop and think. One of my favorite students told me last night that he will be leaving to go into the army. As he walked across the stage I prayed for his life--not that he won't drink himself silly at a fraternity party, that he would not flunk out of college, but for his very life. He is certainly not the only kid I'll think of when I hear "Bush lied, kids died." And I am forced to wonder what he's dying for.

So I certainly respect, revere and defend the right to criticize. I support Bush with my words and my vote and my prayers, and yet I am grateful for a system that not only allows us to change leadership every 4 years but forces us to change the president every 8 years. I've said before that I believe our presidents have the nasty job of cleaning up after their predecessors.

The rest of what I have to say about it was stated eloquently by Skunky in his post about the "cult of negativity." Some call my support "blind faith," and I call it submission to authority. Not deference to a tyranny or autocracy, but cooperation within our representative republic (not democracy--it is based on democracy, but not strictly.) We have a good system, but it requires teamwork.

I echo Skunky--what are we teaching our children about working with authority?

[Tootsie]

I hope we are teaching our children to learn about the real world and to think for themselves, and to know right from wrong. if we do this, then they will be able to make good choices and appreciate a president who does serve the country well. I hope they will learn well about politics and the importance of america's role in the world. I hope they will be taught that peace matters most. peace education is where it starts. I hope they will never accept a president or any leader just because... I hope they can think and be critical based on what they know is right.

[aleonard]

I hope we are teaching our children to learn about the real world and to think for themselves, and to know right from wrong. if we do this, then they will be able to make good choices and appreciate a president who does serve the country well. I hope they will learn well about politics and the importance of america's role in the world. I hope they will be taught that peace matters most. peace education is where it starts. I hope they will never accept a president or any leader just because... I hope they can think and be critical based on what they know is right.


I agree. I vote. I also question the authority of those who are dishonest with me.
The present authority has disposed of emails they knew were supposed to be backed up, tapped phones without warrants and has hid it from the public on probably many more occasions then the media or public will ever be aware of based on prior behavior. This behavior denote disrespect for his office as well as the public HE SERVES. I give respect to everyone, whether they hold public office or not, until such time as they have behaved in a way that removes my respect for them. Our present president behaves as if he and his people are above the law and I have no respect whatsoever for that.

[scooterbug44]

I can respect the office of president while feeling the individual currently holding the office is a waste of molecules.

I have earned the right to biatch about my political leaders and their actions by voting in every presidential election, many minor elections (by absentee ballot if necessary), and even changing my party affilliation from Independent on the off chance a new Democratic primary for this election might happen.

[Tootsie]

I can respect the office of president while feeling the individual currently holding the office is a waste of molecules.

I have earned the right to biatch about my political leaders and their actions by voting in every presidential election, many minor elections (by absentee ballot if necessary), and even changing my party affilliation from Independent on the off chance a new Democratic primary for this election might happen.

you know, I have many friends who do not vote for one reason or another. some are not citizens and do not have the privilege. I think they still have the right to state their opinions and voice their concerns.. some friends from other countries make more sense to me than anyone else, who have much more perspective of our country than we will ever have. some don't vote because they are lazy. some because they are sick of the process. that is their choice entirely. they can still have opinions along with the rest of us, imo.

[cp]

I always vote also in local,state and national elections! It really bothers me when people sit around say "there's nobody to vote for" . Well, that's just crazy to me.

[scooterbug44]

People who have nothing to do with the political process and who are eligible to vote, but can't be bothered to take the time/make the effort, have chosen to not have a voice in their country.

No voice = no way to whine

There are a wide variety of ways to contribute to and have a voice in the government and direction of our country and they do not require a great deal of time, money, or citizenship.

[NoHall]

No, Peace is Patriotic is fine in my opinion. Maybe I wasn't clear in my original post, but I have no problem with criticism...look at how Obama goes about it;he uses strong language using terms like 'failure' and 'disaster' describing Bush's foreign policy. That is great, I have no problem with that. I really respect the man because he has yet to criticize without offering well thought out arguments to back up his critique. That is how it should be. I just don't see how anyone can actually feel like it is productive to sport inflammatory cliches on the old bumper.

I might need your forgiveness in advance for this: I have no problem with a presidential candidate criticizing the current administration. In fact, in view of my view that the current president does little more than clean up after the previous one, I expect and demand a candidate's view of the current mess and how he will handle it.

But nothing grinds my shorts worse than Jimmy Carter's constant criticism. If Clinton and GHW Bush can play golf and raise tsunami money together, Carter can keep his trap shut. He had his chance and blew it. Good grief...

I hope we are teaching our children to learn about the real world and to think for themselves, and to know right from wrong. if we do this, then they will be able to make good choices and appreciate a president who does serve the country well. I hope they will learn well about politics and the importance of america's role in the world. I hope they will be taught that peace matters most. peace education is where it starts. I hope they will never accept a president or any leader just because... I hope they can think and be critical based on what they know is right.

God help Spidey if he's ever in one of my classes...I also tell all my students at the get-go that they are not in a democracy, they are in a dictatorship, but if they play nice I can be a funn tyrant! I keep going back to the classroom because it seems like such a microcosm sometimes. I have one class where 2 of the 15 students insist on causing disruptions every single day. Over the course of the semester, the other students have learned that when those two are allowed to dominate my time with their whining, then the peace and order of the entire class is destroyed. Over time, the class has learned to tell those two to sit down and shut up so that I can do my job.

I heard 4 different students address the corps last night about the importance of not placing their own opinion first and accepting the authority of those in charge (in this case, teachers.) Our cadet commander--one of the most amazing kids I've ever met--understands that the only way to get what you need is to stop tearing up the system with demands for what you want. (I think the Rolling Stones sang about that, too...)

That is also what I was referencing when Scooterbug pointed out that Maj. Jarrard went outside of both governments' system to help those kids. He said that his dad taught him that helping out was a matter of jumping in the truck and doing it. That's what I would love to see more of in this country. Less lobbying, less lawmaking, less policy, less squabbling, and more "jumping in the truck."

[Smiling JOe]

What a Country. I respect the opinions being stated here. I don't agree fully with them. In fact, I run a little off the margins of the page with my thoughts on voting. I feel that one should vote their beliefs. I hear people asking others why they are "wasting their vote," when they vote for a candidate outside of the DEM or GOP parties. I also think that voting for the lesser of two evils, which most people do, is not my cup of tea. How YOU vote is up to you. Vote how you like. I am getting to the point where I think that if no candidate, who represents my beliefs, is in the race, I am considering making my voice heard by not voting. The other day, I was thinking -- What if there was a way to vote for "None of the Above?" I wonder what percentage of voters would make that choice. If politicians could see that we are willing to not vote for any of them, maybe they would have to straighten up and act accordingly, rather than believe that we like what they are doing when they see a vote in the affirmative. Don't tell me that I cannot biotch and moan if I choose to not cast a vote for President.

[Gypsea]

I might need your forgiveness in advance for this: I have no problem with a presidential candidate criticizing the current administration. In fact, in view of my view that the current president does little more than clean up after the previous one, I expect and demand a candidate's view of the current mess and how he will handle it.

But nothing grinds my shorts worse than Jimmy Carter's constant criticism. If Clinton and GHW Bush can play golf and raise tsunami money together, Carter can keep his trap shut. He had his chance and blew it. Good grief...



God help Spidey if he's ever in one of my classes...I also tell all my students at the get-go that they are not in a democracy, they are in a dictatorship, but if they play nice I can be a funn tyrant! I keep going back to the classroom because it seems like such a microcosm sometimes. I have one class where 2 of the 15 students insist on causing disruptions every single day. Over the course of the semester, the other students have learned that when those two are allowed to dominate my time with their whining, then the peace and order of the entire class is destroyed. Over time, the class has learned to tell those two to sit down and shut up so that I can do my job.

I heard 4 different students address the corps last night about the importance of not placing their own opinion first and accepting the authority of those in charge (in this case, teachers.) Our cadet commander--one of the most amazing kids I've ever met--understands that the only way to get what you need is to stop tearing up the system with demands for what you want. (I think the Rolling Stones sang about that, too...)

That is also what I was referencing when Scooterbug pointed out that Maj. Jarrard went outside of both governments' system to help those kids. He said that his dad taught him that helping out was a matter of jumping in the truck and doing it. That's what I would love to see more of in this country. Less lobbying, less lawmaking, less policy, less squabbling, and more "jumping in the truck."

NoHall, I really am trying to learn from you. Can you back up the above statement?

[scooterbug44]

Don't tell me that I cannot biotch and moan if I choose to not cast a vote for President.

You cannot biatch and moan about the "problem" if you do absolutely NOTHING to prevent or fix it. As I mentioned, there are a wide variety of ways besides voting to do this.

[NoHall]

NoHall, I really am trying to learn from you. Can you back up the above statement?

God help you! :lol:

I'm no expert, and I would love to have Punzy or some of our other great minds jump in, but I've always been taught that economic theory, for instance, has about an 8 year turnaround. Reagan was dealing with the aftermath of Carter and Ford, who was coping with Nixon's mess, and Nixon inherited the Vietnam mess...and so on...

I was always taught in school that World War II was how we got out of the Great Depression. Roosevelt wasn't responsible for the Depression, but he sure had to deal with it. He is the one who bears the burden for ending the war, too.

I have been reluctant to talk about Katrina because, unlike some of my favorite people in SoWal, I never lived in NOLA. But my peephole impression of the disaster was that the parts of the city that was completely flooded was built in the wrong place a long time ago, and that the infrastructure of the city (levies, etc.) was not done well. (My brother, an engineer, has lived there, and that was his impression of the city as well.) As the storm hit, I wondered why the heck so many people refused to evacuate. As the levies broke I wondered why the heck so many people still refused to evacuate. As I saw scores of able-looking men and women screaming and crying at the Convention Center, I wondered why they didn't get on the blasted buses. Afterward, the mayor proved himself to be a complete moron and the governor apologized for her complete incompetency in the issue. I'm not sure how all of this added up to "Bush hates black people" and that he failed the city.

I really do want to hear how he is responsible for this disaster. I really want to hear what he was supposed to do.

And consider 9/11--it happened during Bush's presidency, but was certainly not planned, trained for and executed during the 9 months between his inauguration and the event. Clinton knew of the threats--Bin Laden didn't just sneak out of the woodwork.

Here is your bone, dears: Whoever follows up Bush will have to clean up the war, one way or another. That is probably all he will accomplish in 4 or 8 years. This is why I will scold anyone who criticizes the new president, no matter what I think of him personally. He will be very busy with what he will inherit.

[NoHall]

What if there was a way to vote for "None of the Above?" I wonder what percentage of voters would make that choice. If politicians could see that we are willing to not vote for any of them, maybe they would have to straighten up and act accordingly, rather than believe that we like what they are doing when they see a vote in the affirmative.
I think Mickey Mouse will have another strong year at the polls.
Don't tell me that I cannot biotch and moan if I choose to not cast a vote for President.
Of course you can, bless your heart. We just won't listen to you.

[Tootsie]

What a Country. I respect the opinions being stated here. I don't agree fully with them. In fact, I run a little off the margins of the page with my thoughts on voting. I feel that one should vote their beliefs. I hear people asking others why they are "wasting their vote," when they vote for a candidate outside of the DEM or GOP parties. I also think that voting for the lesser of two evils, which most people do, is not my cup of tea. How YOU vote is up to you. Vote how you like. I am getting to the point where I think that if no candidate, who represents my beliefs, is in the race, I am considering making my voice heard by not voting. The other day, I was thinking -- What if there was a way to vote for "None of the Above?" I wonder what percentage of voters would make that choice. If politicians could see that we are willing to not vote for any of them, maybe they would have to straighten up and act accordingly, rather than believe that we like what they are doing when they see a vote in the affirmative. Don't tell me that I cannot biotch and moan if I choose to not cast a vote for President.


I completely respect anyone's decision to not vote. why would you vote if there is no choice that you can support? to vote for the lesser evil? that is total BS, imo.

I know some great folks who have made the choice to not go to the polls. it was a very thoughtful choice... one that was not made lightly. and yes, they have every right to voice opinions on any matter pertaining to their country and its leadership. if someone tells you that you don't have the right to an opinion (whiney opinion or not) after not voting, you can choose to ignore the judgement made of you and your choice to not vote.

SJ - I know you'll do what's right for you. a write in vote for willie nelson, or simply "none of the above" is certainly an option. then you can have your "I voted" sticker, if its important for you to have and wear such.

[Gypsea]

God help you! :lol:

I'm no expert, and I would love to have Punzy or some of our other great minds jump in, but I've always been taught that economic theory, for instance, has about an 8 year turnaround. Reagan was dealing with the aftermath of Carter and Ford, who was coping with Nixon's mess, and Nixon inherited the Vietnam mess...and so on...

I was always taught in school that World War II was how we got out of the Great Depression. Roosevelt wasn't responsible for the Depression, but he sure had to deal with it. He is the one who bears the burden for ending the war, too.

I have been reluctant to talk about Katrina because, unlike some of my favorite people in SoWal, I never lived in NOLA. But my peephole impression of the disaster was that the parts of the city that was completely flooded was built in the wrong place a long time ago, and that the infrastructure of the city (levies, etc.) was not done well. (My brother, an engineer, has lived there, and that was his impression of the city as well.) As the storm hit, I wondered why the heck so many people refused to evacuate. As the levies broke I wondered why the heck so many people still refused to evacuate. As I saw scores of able-looking men and women screaming and crying at the Convention Center, I wondered why they didn't get on the blasted buses. Afterward, the mayor proved himself to be a complete moron and the governor apologized for her complete incompetency in the issue. I'm not sure how all of this added up to "Bush hates black people" and that he failed the city.

.

And consider 9/11--it happened during Bush's presidency, but was certainly not planned, trained for and executed during the 9 months between his inauguration and the event. Clinton knew of the threats--Bin Laden didn't just sneak out of the woodwork.

Here is your bone, dears: Whoever follows up Bush will have to clean up the war, one way or another. That is probably all he will accomplish in 4 or 8 years. This is why I will scold anyone who criticizes the new president, no matter what I think of him personally. He will be very busy with what he will inherit.


I appreciate you responding NoHall. It is great to have a dialog.

Concerning Katrina my wishes would have been for Bush not to have a crony as head of FEMA. It would have been great if he would have put a plan in order when Max Mayfield (head of the National Hurricane Center) personally called him to tell him to tell him that this storm was going to be the real deal and instead of clearing brush from his ranch he would have rushed in to New Orleans. It was possible for Brian Williams to be there so I would have expected the same for my president.

I do have sympathy for our next president and I expect it to be one term. It will be almost impossible to turn around the issues that he or she will inherit (the war, the deficit, etc........) It is my opinion that we have nowhere to go but up and whoever wins they will have my complete support.

[JustaLocal]

I sure don't mind people not voting!
I almost wish you had to take a test first. :lol:
Most people I run into that don't vote would be likely to vote opposite of me. I think it just makes my vote count more.

I do wish people could complain without the childish name calling, but it is the nature of the beast.

[Mango]

I said 'strongly suspect' a number of posters don't vote. I know you vote, I strongly suspect Gypsea does. I know Punzy does. I strongly suspect NoHall does because I can't imagine anyone suffering the slings and arrows she does by actually defending W. I still strongly suspect that many posters in the political forum, and many more sporting cute bumper stickers don't vote. That isn't going out on a limb;we have a dismal voter participation on election day. And I suspect that in large part that apathy is contributed to by the politics of personal destruction that so many seem fond of. Maybe I should back up and say this doesn't just apply to W. Back in the good old days I was given a 'Willie wants your wallet' bumper sticker. I never put it on my car-it is tasteless.

Maybe, you got it backwards Skunky, and its the aura of a destruction of politics that we have seen making citizens feel that their vote is useless. I suspect this election we will see record numbers voting, maybe because of a simple enabling statement, like "Yes we can". Whether or not we can or will is yet to be seen, but I think it will make a huge difference in voter turnout.

I think the incessant criticism of Bush that you encountering Nohall is this feeling of destructive politics from an administration that hired people who only shilled to their wishes, like the Greenspan's of the world, who in his own book states" 'Deficits don't matter,' to my chagrin became part of the Republicans' rhetoric." He argues that "deficits must matter" and that uncontrolled government spending and borrowing can produce high inflation "and economic devastation." (Hmmm...sound familiar?)

When Bush and Cheney won the 2000 election, Greenspan writes, "I thought we had a golden opportunity to advance the ideals of effective, fiscally conservative government and free markets. . . . I was soon to see my old friends veer off to unexpected directions."

Just merely one example of the furor that has escalated over the Bush administration, But, one thing people seem to focus are his policies and actions related to the war, and many have their own opinions related to that, but, I do not think that is the only reason for the criticisms you have seen of Bush.

[30A Skunkape]

Tootsie-I don't know who the deep thinkers are you cite that don't vote. The people I know who don't vote either don't care or want to avoid jury duty(the latter being voiced more often than not).

NoHall-What busses?

Gypsea-What would you have expected W to do if he dropped his chain saw and boogeyed down to New Orleans?

Smiley J-Somebody who complains about the political landscape while avoiding the polls is no more of a voice to be paid attention to than somebody complaining about the taste of a free meal!

This thread really blossomed while we were at the beach...everyone should get outside in this gorgeous weather!:cool:

[peapod1980]

I have been reluctant to talk about Katrina because, unlike some of my favorite people in SoWal, I never lived in NOLA.

I really do want to hear how he is responsible for this disaster. I really want to hear what he was supposed to do.
I think most people realize that the destruction from Katrina was due to inadequate infrastructure issues; Bush is not responsible for that. I can only speak as one of millions of people around the world who watched this unfold on TV and felt helpless and horrified. What Bush failed to do was convince us that he had things under control or was formulating a plan. Everything we saw--from the on-the-spot reporting to the government's involvement--reflected total chaos. A horrendous natural disaster brings with it an enormous amount of unavoidable destruction, but most of those who were supposed to be organizing aid efforts seemed flummoxed and/or inept. It felt like we had no real leadership during this time--even if Bush appeared on TV saying he was working things out, the news coverage showed us scenes that contradicted his claims. So, even if someone wants to argue that he handled it the best possible way considering the circumstances, I think many Americans lost faith in him as a result, whether that's fair or not.

[Gypsea]

Tootsie-I don't know who the deep thinkers are you cite that don't vote. The people I know who don't vote either don't care or want to avoid jury duty(the latter being voiced more often than not).

NoHall-What busses?

Gypsea-What would you have expected W to do if he dropped his chain saw and boogeyed down to New Orleans?

Smiley J-Somebody who complains about the political landscape while avoiding the polls is no more of a voice to be paid attention to than somebody complaining about the taste of a free meal!

This thread really blossomed while we were at the beach...everyone should get outside in this gorgeous weather!:cool:

Maybe to show people that he truly cared and had a plan and then followed though with it.

[30A Skunkape]

Maybe to show people that he truly cared and had a plan and then followed though with it.

Oh come on, it wouldn't have mattered one hill of beans if Bush had been at the corner of St Claude and Dumaine as big K struck. I don't think one needs to be in the path of an approaching hurricane to demonstrate care. I was near the eye of Andrew in 1992 as it hit Louisiana and I sure don't recall Clinton being there, but I would not accuse him of not caring! We can certainly criticize the federal response after Katrina but I don't buy the 'he didn't care' argument.

[jdarg]

Oh come on, it wouldn't have mattered one hill of beans if Bush had been at the corner of St Claude and Dumaine as big K struck. I don't think one needs to be in the path of an approaching hurricane to demonstrate care. I was near the eye of Andrew in 1992 as it hit Louisiana and I sure don't recall Clinton being there, but I would not accuse him of not caring! We can certainly criticize the federal response after Katrina but I don't buy the 'he didn't care' argument.

Skunky, go back to the beach. You were a happy guy out there.

[Gypsea]

Oh come on, it wouldn't have mattered one hill of beans if Bush had been at the corner of St Claude and Dumaine as big K struck. I don't think one needs to be in the path of an approaching hurricane to demonstrate care. I was near the eye of Andrew in 1992 as it hit Louisiana and I sure don't recall Clinton being there, but I would not accuse him of not caring! We can certainly criticize the federal response after Katrina but I don't buy the 'he didn't care' argument.

Brian Williams and Anderson Cooper looked alot more caring than our president. It would have been very important for him to be there way before he ever showed up after the storm. He could of taken a lesson from his brother who did an excellent job after the storms that he experienced as the Governor of Florida.

[30A Skunkape]

Brian Williams and Anderson Cooper looked alot more caring than our president. It would have been very important for him to be there way before he ever showed up after the storm. He could of taken a lesson from his brother who did an excellent job after the storms that he experienced as the Governor of Florida.

It is understood that a state's governor will stick around and I promise you that if W did go hang out in the French Quarter with all the caring journalists (who have a job description that includes going into disaster and war zones) the same people who bash him for not going sooner would have opined brilliantly that the "frat boy was back on Bourbon Street" or he was "using an impending disaster for a photo-op" or some such nonsense.

The responsibility for the Katrina debacle goes way deeper than any one person and to try to simplify it as such is hooey. Sure, Bush is an easy target; but an honest assessment would include looking at why the levees failed, why the city had nothing to speak of as far as an action plan, what systems were in place to allow such crushing poverty to exist in the United States, why nobody seemed to take seriously more than a half century of coastal erosion and opinions held by elderly and poor people who chose to cast their lot to chance rather than leave the one asset they had (namely, a home). I know, tough to fit that on a bumper sticker, but the facts are the facts!

[NoHall]

It is understood that a state's governor will stick around and I promise you that if W did go hang out in the French Quarter with all the caring journalists (who have a job description that includes going into disaster and war zones) the same people who bash him for not going sooner would have opined brilliantly that the "frat boy was back on Bourbon Street" or he was "using an impending disaster for a photo-op" or some such nonsense.

The responsibility for the Katrina debacle goes way deeper than any one person and to try to simplify it as such is hooey. Sure, Bush is an easy target; but an honest assessment would include looking at why the levees failed, why the city had nothing to speak of as far as an action plan, what systems were in place to allow such crushing poverty to exist in the United States, why nobody seemed to take seriously more than a half century of coastal erosion and opinions held by elderly and poor people who chose to cast their lot to chance rather than leave the one asset they had (namely, a home). I know, tough to fit that on a bumper sticker, but the facts are the facts!

I feel like a bootlicker to keep throwing you thanks, so I will just say thanks this way. I wondered if I was just some callous witch up in North Georgia, but this was also my assessment of the situation. I'm glad to hear it from someone with a front row seat.

The other thing I'm reading in what was posted while I was at the movies is the "guilt by association" argument. Interesting. When I think of how I feel about the first Clinton (which is pretty similar to your sentiments about the second Bush) my thoughts don't automatically go to the skeezeballs in his posse. So I didn't see the guilt by association thing coming. But, dang, that's a good argument, and I think Mr. Obama would second it. (The second Clinton would wag her finger in your face and screech about something, but I don't want to think about that.) I'm not just being sarcastic about that, either--in an age where the public learns the news 30 seconds before it happens, there is truly no place to hide...

[Gypsea]

It is understood that a state's governor will stick around and I promise you that if W did go hang out in the French Quarter with all the caring journalists (who have a job description that includes going into disaster and war zones) the same people who bash him for not going sooner would have opined brilliantly that the "frat boy was back on Bourbon Street" or he was "using an impending disaster for a photo-op" or some such nonsense.

The responsibility for the Katrina debacle goes way deeper than any one person and to try to simplify it as such is hooey. Sure, Bush is an easy target; but an honest assessment would include looking at why the levees failed, why the city had nothing to speak of as far as an action plan, what systems were in place to allow such crushing poverty to exist in the United States, why nobody seemed to take seriously more than a half century of coastal erosion and opinions held by elderly and poor people who chose to cast their lot to chance rather than leave the one asset they had (namely, a home). I know, tough to fit that on a bumper sticker, but the facts are the facts!

Skunky, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I happen to believe that it is in the presidents job discription to visit the scene of a natural disaster to help comfort the people. Of course that is not enough, but it shows effort. A plan and good management would be great. Many mistakes were made all the way up the chain but like in the military the buck stops at the top.

[Mark Partington]

You gotta love a functional illiterate...they make whacky characters on sitcoms.
W. When a letter says it all...
If you havent figured out you elected (sort of) the "project for a new American century", and their twisted agenda, ya jes gotta love W.
The half-wit son of the ex-head of our own secret police & and an arms dealer is sort of a dream come true.

I'm not even saying the other choices were all that great; it's kinda like GE or Westinghouse......who ya with.

I'm always ready for a good Owl burning though....count me in for the truly weird. The Bohemian Grove is definately the "Party", and as good Americans
its always time for a party.

I Think Voltaire said it best; but I cant remember what ;well....I seemed to have lost the thread of what.....you know;fool me once or some deal.
:floor:

[30A Skunkape]

Skunky, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I happen to believe that it is in the presidents job discription to visit the scene of a natural disaster to help comfort the people. Of course that is not enough, but it shows effort. A plan and good management would be great. Many mistakes were made all the way up the chain but like in the military the buck stops at the top.

Does the buck stop at the top or is the buck actually a hot potato that nobody felt was important enough to address in the first place?

Bad levees-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...
Poverty-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...
Coastal erosion-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...
City has no plan-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...

I guess it is easier to participate in the exercise of blaming W.

[Smiling JOe]

Smiley J-Somebody who complains about the political landscape while avoiding the polls is no more of a voice to be paid attention to than somebody complaining about the taste of a free meal!
I really don't understand this point of view. So let's say that I don't agree with any of the current candidates and I vote for Hillary. (I use Hillary because we know that she won't be in the race and I'm not here to sway votes.) Hillary wins, and I don't like the way she runs things. You are saying that because I voted for her, that my voice should be given more weight than if I had abstained from voting? :idontno: I really don't understand that mentality. Let's say I voted for Hillary and McBush won. Does that give me more street cred than someone who abstained?

If none of the candidates ring my bell, what good is voting the lesser of two evils, just so that people with this mentality can rank the importance of that which I say? Since no one is allowed to see how I choose to vote, it would be fairly difficult for anyone to rate my thoughts, solely based on whether or not I voted. ;-)

On a similar note to what you said about the free meal, wouldn't that be like getting a free pass into the Seaside Jazz Festival and complaining about the ridiculousness of Seaside charging for tickets? I just call them like I see them.

[30A Skunkape]

I really don't understand this point of view. So let's say that I don't agree with any of the current candidates and I vote for Hillary. (I use Hillary because we know that she won't be in the race and I'm not here to sway votes.) Hillary wins, and I don't like the way she runs things. You are saying that because I voted for her, that my voice should be given more weight than if I had abstained from voting? :idontno: I really don't understand that mentality. Let's say I voted for Hillary and McBush won. Does that give me more street cred than someone who abstained?

If none of the candidates ring my bell, what good is voting the lesser of two evils, just so that people with this mentality can rank the importance of that which I say? Since no one is allowed to see how I choose to vote, it would be fairly difficult for anyone to rate my thoughts, solely based on whether or not I voted. ;-)

On a similar note to what you said about the free meal, wouldn't that be like getting a free pass into the Seaside Jazz Festival and complaining about the ridiculousness of Seaside charging for tickets? I just call them like I see them.

I don't get your example because I am referring to people who don't vote. If one cares enough to pull the lever then they should engage in the debates!

I think the better analogy would be complaining about the musicians at the free show.

[wrobert]

Just my two cents. There are several people on the ballot for President other than the major parties. I find it hard to believe that enough common ground could not be found with one of them that a vote could be cast. It is a given that one of the two parties is going to win, but at least a vote for one of those other candidates whose ideas are similar to yours shows the powers that be which direction the country is leaning and puts another vote of the board.

But if you vote for anything on the ballot it will at least generate the undervote, which is something else that gets attention behind the scenes.

[Gypsea]

Does the buck stop at the top or is the buck actually a hot potato that nobody felt was important enough to address in the first place?

Bad levees-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...
Poverty-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...
Coastal erosion-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...
City has no plan-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...

I guess it is easier to participate in the exercise of blaming W.


Sure, many things could have been done to make NO a safer place before Bush took office and those presidents should have done more. I have no argument there. I believe how he handled Katrina as President was a total failure. According to W and his supporters his failures don't stop with him but are the falt of the former presidents (two in particular). I'm not buying it. I believe in personal responsibility. Maybe he should stop trying to sell himself as a Harry Truman. I'm out of here. :wave: We are definitely on different wave lengths here.

[peapod1980]

The responsibility for the Katrina debacle goes way deeper than any one person and to try to simplify it as such is hooey. Sure, Bush is an easy target; but an honest assessment would include looking at why the levees failed, why the city had nothing to speak of as far as an action plan, what systems were in place to allow such crushing poverty to exist in the United States, why nobody seemed to take seriously more than a half century of coastal erosion and opinions held by elderly and poor people who chose to cast their lot to chance rather than leave the one asset they had (namely, a home). I know, tough to fit that on a bumper sticker, but the facts are the facts!

I wondered if I was just some callous witch up in North Georgia, but this was also my assessment of the situation. I'm glad to hear it from someone with a front row seat.
Again...I honestly don't think anyone is arguing these points, are we? Why rehash stuff we all agree on? Front row seat or nosebleed section--doesn't matter--most people who cared to understand why the devastation was so extensive understood all the factors that were already in place when Katrina hit. Is anyone here really trying to hang the responsibility of the whole Katrina situation on Bush? No, I think what we're saying is something simple--it felt like no one was in charge. Skunky, I'm not sure I believe the scenarios you present would have played out the way you propose. I bet I'd feel differently about him today if I'd really seen him down in the trenches, so to speak.

[Andy A.]

I vote! even in a primary when florida dem votes do not count.

regarding bumper stickers - it is really a matter of personal taste, just like the confederate flag issue. the only one that has truly become a sickening one that I still see is the "W the President" sticker. I mean, what the hail is that suppose to mean? like we don't already know and must be reminded repeatedly of who is king, and we had better submit. I don't think so. in my opinion, this very sticker removes respect from the office... am I suppose to respect a man named Dubya who happens to be president?
This is exactly the type of post to which Skunkape is referring. "sickening one", "king" and "had better submit". Its a sticker not removed from a prior campaign! Tootsie, you don't have to respect the "man" but you should respect the office. Then, again, I am not convinced you "respect" anyone that vociferously and vigorously disagrees with you.

[Tootsie]

Does the buck stop at the top or is the buck actually a hot potato that nobody felt was important enough to address in the first place?

Bad levees-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...
Poverty-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...
Coastal erosion-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...
City has no plan-Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ...

I guess it is easier to participate in the exercise of blaming W.


Skunky, you forgot the main reason Bush didn't respond to Katrina in any competent way. and response is what is at issue here. Bush killed FEMA, which was once an outstanding federal emergency management agency led by some of the best emergency response professionals in the country (I experienced first hand the preparedness of this agency in the 90's when I participated in its intense education programs for weeks at a time).

I don't believe the federal govt is responsible for the social problems of NO. LA officials should have taken action, demanded federal attention, etc., in protecting the citizens from potential dam failures, etc. apart from that, natural disasters can and do occur randomly, and resources must be managed effectively from local to federal levels. FEMA was once an agency who had perfected emergency management, at least to the degree that it can be.. each disaster has its unique problems so response is never perfect. but it can be effective.


Why FEMA failed (http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/09/07/fema/index.htmlhttp://)

Ideologically opposed to a strong federal role in disaster relief and obsessed with terrorism, the Bush administration let a once-admired agency fall apart.
By Farhad Manjoo
so, I don't blame any former president for failing to fix NO. but I do blame a president for failing to respond to a large scale disaster using the best emergency management practices available in this country - we do have the resources all over this country - standing in readiness - waiting for direction. or we did before Bush so brilliantly merged FEMA and Homeland Security where resources went to terrorism, and away from natural disaster (disasters are much more likely to occur than terrorism). It seems Bush chose terrorism, for many reasons, mostly political ones. Incompetency from the president on down started to become crystal clear to those who were in the emergency management business all over the country. these men and women take their jobs very seriously, so this was a real blow for them. There are a thousand articles detailing these changes... take a google if you care to know the real reason for katrina's lack of emergency response management.


FEMA was once an agency that proved that government can work.
1995 article describing fema's history and development (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0509.franklin.htmlhttp://)

[Tootsie]

This is exactly the type of post to which Skunkape is referring. "sickening one", "king" and "had better submit". Its a sticker not removed from a prior campaign! Tootsie, you don't have to respect the "man" but you should respect the office. Then, again, I am not convinced you "respect" anyone that vociferously and vigorously disagrees with you.


:blush:yes, my words were a little strong, and my post was one of those that would have been best to have never hit the submit button, or at least deleted. I do apologize. will try to stay away from the bush subject, it does make me say things I should not. my response to my good skunkape friend was suppose to just say that I believe you can put whatever sticker you choose on your car, and its all a matter of personal style and taste. and then the W sticker flashed in my mind and I lost all control. I need some bush anxiety help here!

[NoHall]

Peapod, Gypsea, Tootsie et al...I hear you, which is why I asked. I still resonate with Skunky's point of view, but I appreciate how you've explained what caused the Bush administration to be seen as a failure in the Katrina situation.

I think I've completely run out of lesser points. For those of you who have asked why the hail I started this thread, I'll offer this before I go back to the lounge:

We have some very, very vocal anti-Bush SoWallers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Variety is the spice of life. But we have some equally passionate but less vocal Bush advocates. Despite my big mouth, I also have thin skin, so it makes me cringe when the anti-Bush stuff gets whipped into a frenzy. I started this thread to let my fellow conservatives know that they aren't alone. By definition, conservatives tend to suffer in silence and do things more than they speak them. That's why they're conservative.

I don't mind saying stuff because my friendship with the aforementioned not-conservatives is not based on politics. (I hope!) I know, and believe they do, too, that they can hate Bush as much as I despise Clinton and we can still have funn on the beach. They even let me play with their kids and pets. (As for the others who chose to be petty and mean-spirited, I'm not sure we have anything to talk about.)

And if you're one of the silent sufferers, I don't want you to be scared of the political thread, either. We all need to have an active voice in the future of our country.

I'm going back to the lounge--I have teenaged boys to face tomorrow, and that's all I can do for my country at one time!