Please, Please, Please Indiana....

[rapunzel]

Please Indiana...please make the smart choice. Please bring this silly season to a close. Please go against expectations, and let this be the night.

As anyone who's read my posts or followed the news has known since March, Barack Obama is going to end the primary season with more delegates than Hillary Clinton and the only way for her to get the nomination is for the superdelegates to override the elections. All this tacky pandering and negative campaigning that we've suffered through for the past couple of months has been pretty pointless, and has only turned off many people that had been re-engaged by the positive tone of the early race.

Indiana isn't expected to to be any different than Ohio and Pennsylvania, the media expects that they'll go for the populist message and racial division that worked so well in other working-class Ohio Valley areas. Apparently, though, there is a reason to think that maybe, perhaps, they aren't going to.

For those of you signed up to make calls for Obama, they have sent out an urgent GOTV plea -- which I think, based on previous experience, means they think they've got a shot.

Please, Indiana...bring this to an end!

But if they do....this is our one night without a primary party! :( Still...I'll be skipping around the house by myself singing that song about Indiana from the Music Man and that will be good enough!

[tistheseason]

Can you imagine the state of the democratic party IF the superdelegates override the popular vote??? I don´t want to see it. Come on Indiana, save us the misery and let´s put this thing to bed!

[rapunzel]

I got on the phone to make some calls. I got a list of 15 people, all men. So far, four calls...four women have answered and wanted to know what I wanted with their husbands. Oops.

Hey Mermy, what's up with Carmel? I think they're prejudiced against Southerners...

Tis -- you should make some calls since you don't have an accent. :funn:

[BeachSiO2]

I slightly disagree on the thought of superdelegates overriding something. IMO, superdelegates don't override anything. They follow the rules and vote just like the rules say they can, and just like I did in SC for Obama. What would be the problem if on day one all the superdelegates would have came out and said we are all voting for Hillary instead of later in the process.

To me, that argument is just like Hillary saying that if the Dems used the Republican's nominating rules, I would already be the nominee, which is equally ludicrous. Everyone started with the same rules and now must live by them. Now if people want the rules changed, get to it.

I am starting a new movement. Don't deny Montana, South Dakota and Puerto Rico their ability to have a say in the nomination!!!!

[Mermaid]

I got on the phone to make some calls. I got a list of 15 people, all men. So far, four calls...four women have answered and wanted to know what I wanted with their husbands. Oops.

Hey Mermy, what's up with Carmel? I think they're prejudiced against Southerners...

Tis -- you should make some calls since you don't have an accent. :funn:

Carmel is an extremely affluent suburb of Indianapolis. They are typically afraid to cross the borders into our city for fear of urban contamination. (No I'm not joking. :blush:) Most of them have probably never heard a true Southern accent like yours so you must excuse them for being discombobulated. Your voice is outside their realm of expectations.

I've just come back from voting and my vote was the 611th entered, which is easily more than four times the usual turnout for primaries.I feel like I'm part of history being made! It's really exciting today in the city. Lots of buzz. Last night Philippa and her boyfriend (and 21,000 like-minded friends) went downtown to hear Obama speak. They couldn't stay past 9pm, though, so they missed hearing him though they were treated to a Stevie Wonder concert.

The 10 pm news is going to be so interesting tonight! Oh, Punzy, I think you may call us smart.

[scooterbug44]

I got on the phone to make some calls. I got a list of 15 people, all men. So far, four calls...four women have answered and wanted to know what I wanted with their husbands. Oops.


Ha-ha! You don't call and ask for the husband in the Midwest unless you are a relative. You just got a bunch of men in trouble because some Southern floozy called for them! :rofl:

[BeachSiO2]

Ha-ha! You don't call and ask for the husband in the Midwest unless you are a relative. You just got a bunch of men in trouble because some Southern floozy called for them! :rofl:

Especially if she told them her name was Rapunzel :yikes: :biggrin:

[rapunzel]

I slightly disagree on the thought of superdelegates overriding something. IMO, superdelegates don't override anything. They follow the rules and vote just like the rules say they can, and just like I did in SC for Obama. What would be the problem if on day one all the superdelegates would have came out and said we are all voting for Hillary instead of later in the process.

To me, that argument is just like Hillary saying that if the Dems used the Republican's nominating rules, I would already be the nominee, which is equally ludicrous. Everyone started with the same rules and now must live by them. Now if people want the rules changed, get to it.

Oh, I don't dispute that it is within their rights to swing to a candidate other than the one who received the most pledged delegates. I just think it would be tragic for the future of the party if they did that.

Watching Carville last night on Nightline just convinced me that if this goes on much longer, we are going to see a convention fight that is a virtual repeat of Chicago in 1968...a generational fight that leads people to feel contempt for the party and the process. Indiana could be a game changer, and while I'm not terribly optimistic they will it would be such a fantastic relief.

[rapunzel]

Ha-ha! You don't call and ask for the husband in the Midwest unless you are a relative. You just got a bunch of men in trouble because some Southern floozy called for them! :rofl:

Floozy! OMG, I love it. If he wins, I'll call back tonight and thank them in my best Scarlett at the barbecue voice!!

http://math.ucsd.edu/~dwildstr/reviews/movies/images/gone-with-the-wind-full.jpg

[BeachSiO2]

Oh, I don't dispute that it is within their rights to swing to a candidate other than the one who received the most pledged delegates. I just think it would be tragic for the future of the party if they did that.

Watching Carville last night on Nightline just convinced me that if this goes on much longer, we are going to see a convention fight that is a virtual repeat of Chicago in 1968...a generational fight that leads people to feel contempt for the party and the process. Indiana could be a game changer, and while I'm not terribly optimistic they will it would be such a fantastic relief.

I agree it would be tragic, but my point is that I think portraying them as overriding something is not a valid argument as if they pledged to a candidate early then how could they be overriding anything. They are voting their conscious just like everyone else. I also think it points out that the Republicans aren't the only party ran by old codgers who make up the establishment. They were the party at least smart enough to not give the establishment too much power.

Or maybe "the Party leaders" knew this and set it up that way to begin with. I can see it now, "ok let's say we are the party of the people, and we are progressive, and we support the little people, but in the end make sure we can be the master puppeteer." Sad state of affairs no doubt, but politricks at its best.

[hnooe]

I got on the phone to make some calls.


It is a sad state of affairs, I must admit, but the only phone calls most Americans will be willing to make tonight will be for their favorite super-star-in-the making, on American Idol...very sad.:idontno:

[goodwitch58]

So, why do you all think this is true? Why are there not more citizens willing to be involved in our government process?

I am appalled at how little most people know or care about our process...and, those who do care and want to make a difference, are labeled Elite...and I am not just speaking of Senator Obama.

What is it with our citizens?

[rapunzel]

I agree it would be tragic, but my point is that I think portraying them as overriding something is not a valid argument as if they pledged to a candidate early then how could they be overriding anything. They are voting their conscious just like everyone else. I also think it points out that the Republicans aren't the only party ran by old codgers who make up the establishment. They were the party at least smart enough to not give the establishment too much power.

Or maybe "the Party leaders" knew this and set it up that way to begin with. I can see it now, "ok let's say we are the party of the people, and we are progressive, and we support the little people, but in the end make sure we can be the master puppeteer." Sad state of affairs no doubt, but politricks at its best.

Well, Fiddle-Dee-Dee BeachSiO2! You used to be so much fun! All this political talk is just makin' my head swim!

Override was a poor word choice, I apologize. Honestly, I just don't think the SDs will swing to her in numbers substantial enough to change the outcome. I do think that Carville and the old DLC guard will hammer Obama and Dean hard and often all the way through the summer if this goes on, because they want to regain control of the party. I think most of the events of the primary season have shown just how democratic the party is, and how money and name recognition and donor lists don't trump ideas. Look at Obama and compare that to Paul, and I think you'll see that the old guard doesn't have a complete stranglehold on the DNC. With that said, there is something nice about a stranglehold -- one could use it to choke Carville and Wolfson. You're right, however...this all just needs to play out. The three pleases in the title weren't for the Obama campaign -- they were for me and my poor nerves on a very personal level.

[rapunzel]

So, why do you all think this is true? Why are there not more citizens willing to be involved in our government process?

I am appalled at how little most people know or care about our process...and, those who do care and want to make a difference, are labeled Elite...and I am not just speaking of Senator Obama.

What is it with our citizens?

Have you made any calls? It really is difficult. People by and large are not civil. I hate making calls. I love to canvass, but calls are hard. But, I'm glad to do it.

After 12 pointless calls, I found a guy who wasn't sure where he was supposed to go....47 minutes, and I got one vote out of it. Boy, did that make my day.

[aleonard]

http://mine.icanhascheezburger.com/default.aspx?preview=1&source=http%3A//images.icanhascheezburger.com/imagestore/2008/4/8/817ea2a4-b868-446c-874c-1ff20e55a304.jpg&top=Indiana%20make%20the%20smart%20choice&bottom=or%20I%27ll%20give%20you%20the%20stink%20ey e&middle=&font=Impact&color=White&size=22&bold=true&italic=false&underlined=false&style=outline&opacity=100&topalignment=left&middlealignment=left&bottomalignment=left

[goodwitch58]

Have you made any calls? It really is difficult. People by and large are not civil. I hate making calls. I love to canvass, but calls are hard. But, I'm glad to do it.

After 12 pointless calls, I found a guy who wasn't sure where he was supposed to go....47 minutes, and I got one vote out of it. Boy, did that make my day.

Yes, I have and it is difficult...so many people seem clueless, or angry, or both. I am consoled by the fact that so many new people (younger ones I think)are coming out to vote this time--and that more people in general are voting...that is good.

I just see so much apathy in day to day life--regular folks do not seem to connect to the fact that they can have an active "say" in what happens. So many want to complain about what "they" are doing...but, seem genuinely surprised when I ask what they have done: have your written or called or emailed your Congressperson? Have you written a letter to the editor? Have you signed up to work in a campaign? Have you gone to a meeting? etc., etc.

Maybe too many of us are working so hard to keep it all together...but, it seems like the idea of advoacy and public service got left behind somewhere.

Okay. Rant over.:blink:

[BeachSiO2]

Well, Fiddle-Dee-Dee BeachSiO2! You used to be so much fun! All this political talk is just makin' my head swim!

Override was a poor word choice, I apologize. Honestly, I just don't think the SDs will swing to her in numbers substantial enough to change the outcome. I do think that Carville and the old DLC guard will hammer Obama and Dean hard and often all the way through the summer if this goes on, because they want to regain control of the party. I think most of the events of the primary season have shown just how democratic the party is, and how money and name recognition and donor lists don't trump ideas. Look at Obama and compare that to Paul, and I think you'll see that the old guard doesn't have a complete stranglehold on the DNC. With that said, there is something nice about a stranglehold -- one could use it to choke Carville and Wolfson. You're right, however...this all just needs to play out. The three pleases in the title weren't for the Obama campaign -- they were for me and my poor nerves on a very personal level.

I am still funn, I am just getting more and more fed up with both parties. One doesn't have a good candidate, and one doesn't know if they have a good candidate or not. It is frustrating for me also, albeit on the sidelines, having to see the ongoing test of mettle to see how it is all going to play out like a soap opera. I wish you all the best for your nerves, and hope that you don't see the party explode, or then again it would take care of at least one of the current two evils and maybe a more inclusive party would actually emerge.

Hmm, where is the Architect when you need him. Paging Target shopper, paging Target shopper?:biggrin:

[BeachSiO2]

Have you made any calls? It really is difficult. People by and large are not civil. I hate making calls. I love to canvass, but calls are hard. But, I'm glad to do it.

After 12 pointless calls, I found a guy who wasn't sure where he was supposed to go....47 minutes, and I got one vote out of it. Boy, did that make my day.

Maybe just one today but I remember at least one more you helped find a place to vote ;-)

[BeachSiO2]

I just see so much apathy in day to day life--regular folks do not seem to connect to the fact that they can have an active "say" in what happens. So many want to complain about what "they" are doing...but, seem genuinely surprised when I ask what they have done: have your written or called or emailed your Congressperson? Have you written a letter to the editor? Have you signed up to work in a campaign? Have you gone to a meeting? etc., etc.

Maybe too many of us are working so hard to keep it all together...but, it seems like the idea of advoacy and public service got left behind somewhere.

Okay. Rant over.:blink:

I can definitely tell that you have worked in government before as this describes what I saw also.

[rapunzel]

:bang:

[jdarg]

:bang:

I'm sorry we didn't have a primary party tonight. We seem to bring good luck.:wave:

[cp]

Calling and knocking on doors is a lot of work! I've only done it for local candidates so far.:wave:

[rapunzel]

Cool new feature on CNN.com --

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/county/#INDEMMAPprimary

Exit polls are showing Clinton +5 in Indiana.

I :wub: North Carolina!

[Beach Runner]

CNN just predicted Obama winning NC.

[scooterbug44]

I know that I get quite frustrated/disillusioned w/ politics because it seems like the little guy always gets screwed in the end by the candidate w/ lots of dirty money.

I got involved in a local campaign and was downright appalled by the dirty politricks, old boys club, and blatant campaign violations of their opponent. (not just my opinion, that's actually the decision handed down by the courts.)

Both Obama and McCain give me hope w/ their integrity and reform attempts. :biggrin:

[rapunzel]

Hey Mermy, Obama kicked some booty in Indianapolis! :wub:

When your neck of the woods came in, the split went from 59%-41% to 49%-46%. I am loving CNN's new toy.

[rapunzel]

"The die is cast." David Plouffe

Happy, happy. Joy, joy. :clap:

[Bob]

Carmel is an extremely affluent suburb of Indianapolis. They are typically afraid to cross the borders into our city for fear of urban contamination. (No I'm not joking. :blush:) Most of them have probably never heard a true Southern accent like yours so you must excuse them for being discombobulated. Your voice is outside their realm of expectations.

I've just come back from voting and my vote was the 611th entered, which is easily more than four times the usual turnout for primaries.I feel like I'm part of history being made! It's really exciting today in the city. Lots of buzz. Last night Philippa and her boyfriend (and 21,000 like-minded friends) went downtown to hear Obama speak. They couldn't stay past 9pm, though, so they missed hearing him though they were treated to a Stevie Wonder concert.

The 10 pm news is going to be so interesting tonight! Oh, Punzy, I think you may call us smart.i know they had a Rolex store in Carmel over 5 years ago.

[Beach Runner]

i know they had a Rolex store in Carmel over 5 years ago.
Heck, there's a jeweler who sells Rolexes in Auburn, Alabama, so that doesn't tell me anything about demographics.

JK, Kimmi. Couldn't let that one fly by without a comment on War D*mn Eagles.:lol:

BTW I think Auburn is a great place to send your kid to college.

[scooterbug44]

Dear, sweet, any age, any weight Jesus, let Indiana be the end of Hellary! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/innocent/innocent0001.gif (http://www.ranksurge.com)

[rapunzel]

Obama's about to speak! This is going to be an important speech.

[rapunzel]

If you guys want demographics, go here...

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/05/indiana-scorecard.html

Pulled to within 4 pts. without Gary reporting.

[seacrestgirl]

I am really too nervous to post!!!!

Watching him speak.......WOW!!! He is truly amazing.

[scooterbug44]

An eloquent man as Pres - what a refreshing change! :biggrin:

When he first started I was worried he was saying it was over 'cuz Hilary was going to be his VP.

And then the Fox News guy started talking - what a tool! :roll:

[futurebeachbum]

Indiana isn't expected to to be any different than Ohio and Pennsylvania, the media expects that they'll go for the populist message and racial division that worked so well in other working-class Ohio Valley areas.



Its really interesting to me (mathematically speaking) that having 7 out of 10 white working-class voters in Indiana and in the predominantly white counties of NC choose Hillary is racially motivated, but having 9 out of 10 black voters in both states choosing Obama isn't considered racial at all.

[Mermaid]

80% of the polls were in as of now and my county (and my household) voted solidly for Obama but the rest of Indiana did not follow suit. There was an enormous turn-out all over the state.

[wrobert]

I pray at night that I am wrong. But I am not going to be surprised when the Democratic machine turns their back on the electorate and makes Clinton the nominee.

[cp]

I pray at night that I am wrong. But I am not going to be surprised when the Democratic machine turns their back on the electorate and makes Clinton the nominee.
I just don't see that happening,the democrates want this general election.:roll:

[Smiling JOe]

Doesn't Indiana allow Republicans and Independents to vote cross party? If that is so, what is surprising about Hillary winning Indiana? You know every Republican would vote for Hillary in the Primary with McCain already set in place for the GOP.

[rapunzel]

The Obama boiler room just revised their numbers...they had projected Hillary would win by 5000 votes, but now say they think it's "within their grasp." They think it will come down to 1800 votes.

The guy on CNN thinks it's very fishy the Lake County isn't reporting anything until everything else is in.

[Smiling JOe]

I bet right about now, you were wishing that the Dems selected their Party representative more like the GOP, with winner take all. With these races being so close, their tit for tat narrow-margin wins doesn't really give them much of a jump.

[rapunzel]

I bet right about now, you were wishing that the Dems selected their Party representative more like the GOP, with winner take all. With these races being so close, their tit for tat narrow-margin wins doesn't really give them much of a jump.

Not at all. The winner take all scenario is what leads to a 12 states matter mindset....to heck with the other 38. I like the 50 state strategy, I just wish the kitchen sink strategy hadn't been employed.

[scooterbug44]

The Obama boiler room just revised their numbers...they had projected Hillary would win by 5000 votes, but now say they think it's "within their grasp." They think it will come down to 1800 votes.

The guy on CNN thinks it's very fishy the Lake County isn't reporting anything until everything else is in.

Impossible that there could be political skullduggery 1/2 an hour from downtown Chicago. :funn:

"I am shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on in here." ;-)

[aleonard]

Doesn't Indiana allow Republicans and Independents to vote cross party? If that is so, what is surprising about Hillary winning Indiana? You know every Republican would vote for Hillary in the Primary with McCain already set in place for the GOP.



"Republican crossovers also abound. At a polling station down the road in Newburgh, Ind., a self-described independent voter, who has voted Republican in recent presidential elections, said he was part of “Rush Limbaugh’s ‘Project Chaos,’” which seeks to prolong the Democratic nomination process.
The former teacher, who requested to not be identified, said he considers national security and energy independence among his top priorities as a voter, but has not yet been impressed by the crop of candidates currently running.He wishes he had a “third choice” in November, saying he's unsure if he’d vote for the eventual Democratic nominee or McCain.
After considering that quandry for a moment, he added, “Most likely it will be Senator McCain.”
He then headed to a Democratic primary polling place and cast his ticket for Clinton."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24488540/

[Smiling JOe]

Not at all. The winner take all scenario is what leads to a 12 states matter mindset....to heck with the other 38. I like the 50 state strategy, I just wish the kitchen sink strategy hadn't been employed. Girl, the kitchen-sink is part of poliTRICKS. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too -- at least not in an instant. Patience.

Don't you think Hillary has to stay in the race, until the end of May at the earliest, when the Dems figure out what they will do with Florida and Michigan?

[rapunzel]

Girl, the kitchen-sink is part of poliTRICKS. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too -- at least not in an instant. Patience.

Don't you think Hillary has to stay in the race, until the end of May at the earliest, when the Dems figure out what they will do with Florida and Michigan?

Let's see what happens with these Lake numbers....he's already within 20,000 votes with 28% in and Lake is coming in 75% Obama.

With the way she started her speech tonight, I don't see how she stays in if Lake puts him over the top.

Russert just said Clinton just cancelled her appearances on the morning shows. That's major.

[Smiling JOe]

I hear from a guy with TIME, that in the smaller towns in NC, where Bill Clinton spoke to people from the back of a pickup truck, Hillary didn't perform as well as she did in the towns where Bill didn't speak. Maybe Hillary wants to avoid that question in the morning.

Sounds close. I just heard 51% -- 49% Hillary to Obama, in Indiana, with 92% of votes in.

[rapunzel]

She doesn't want anyone to hear this as the theme music....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXUpEZifcy0

[Rita]

Not at all. The winner take all scenario is what leads to a 12 states matter mindset....to heck with the other 38. I like the 50 state strategy, I just wish the kitchen sink strategy hadn't been employed.

This has bothered me the most with Hillary. Plus, taking the electorate for idiots. Did you catch the comment in her speech this evening about "coming from behind" in Indiana? As if she wasn't favored.

Her winning by 2 points in Indiana is not a good showing. And I think it will end up even by less.:clap: . Now if more of the super delegates will go ahead and endorse Obama tomorrow morning, maybe we can get rid of the kitchen sink antics for a while.

I had gone to bed but had to get up to see if anything else had been reported. Couldn't sleep! Think I'll go try again.

Thanks for keeping us updated Punzy. hmmm 1800 sounds good. I can slep with a smile on my face. ;-)


.

[Smiling JOe]

...Now if more of the super delegates will go ahead and endorse Obama tomorrow morning,...


.You say this as though the super-delegates weren't politicians. They ARE politicians and will many know how the game is played. Many are waiting to be the important vote, or to get something else in return, such as a cabinet position. Others are waiting to be sure that Hillary doesn't come back and haunt them, if by some miracle FL and MI are counted and Hillary wins. They may as well go ahead and wait, just to be sure that they don't get caught voting for the wrong person, who in the end cannot do them any favors.

[tistheseason]

I slightly disagree on the thought of superdelegates overriding something. IMO, superdelegates don't override anything. They follow the rules and vote just like the rules say they can, and just like I did in SC for Obama. What would be the problem if on day one all the superdelegates would have came out and said we are all voting for Hillary instead of later in the process.

To me, that argument is just like Hillary saying that if the Dems used the Republican's nominating rules, I would already be the nominee, which is equally ludicrous. Everyone started with the same rules and now must live by them. Now if people want the rules changed, get to it.

I am starting a new movement. Don't deny Montana, South Dakota and Puerto Rico their ability to have a say in the nomination!!!!

You are right that they are following the rules. But this election is bringing to light the problem in the rules. I still think that there will a revolt against the democrats if it´s perceived that the superdelegates picked the nominee and not ¨the people¨

[Smiling JOe]

if that is the case, maybe the democrats should join another organization, because that is the way the dems do it. They could always fire their Yeeee-haawwwww leader, Howard Dean, whom no one seems to like.

Next thing you know, they will want to elect the President, rather than having the Electoral College do so. Personally, I think they need to take a 7th Grade American Gov't class.

[rapunzel]

if that is the case, maybe the democrats should join another organization, because that is the way the dems do it. They could always fire their Yeeee-haawwwww leader, Howard Dean, whom no one seems to like.

Next thing you know, they will want to elect the President, rather than having the Electoral College do so. Personally, I think they need to take a 7th Grade American Gov't class.

What the? SJ, step away from the am radio.

I like Howard Dean. Guess what? The 50 state strategy just worked. The grassroots prevailed against the machine. We're going to have a nominee not beholden to special interests, who won't have a line of big donors at his door requesting favors come November. We just proved that no matter what the pundits say, we are not so easily divided into little groups. We can rise above racism. We have proven the electorate isn't as dumb as the political consultants think, that we recognize pandering when we hear it.

SJ, the superdelegates were a hold over, a way to include elected officials in the convention, a little fun reward for their work, and a way to open up pledged delegate slots to the rank and file. They added more and more each election cycle. everyone who works so hard wants to be on the floor come August. No one thought a primary would go this far in the age of big donors. It was short-sighted. A mistake. The leadership has been saying for ages (Donna Brazile, Nancy Pelosi, James Clyburn) that they would not go against the pledged delegates. Does the superdelegate role need to be done away with? Of course.

SJ, this has been the most little 'd' democratic primary in modern history. Winner take all is not democratic. Winner take all leads to an early nominee, and neglects to take into account the preferences of all the late voting states, panders to the electoral powerhouses and ignores the little states.

Winner take all divides us into little bitty demographics, panders to us and scares us and divides us. The party leadership took down Dean, the scream just sped it along. Dean restored democracy to the Democratic Party, and in November we'll know whether or not it worked.

The 50-state strategy has given us record turnout around the country, millions of newly registered Democrats, and as Barack Obama predicted in New Hampshire three and a half long months ago, it has given us a different kind of politics...

"We will remember that there is something happening in America. That we are not as divided as our politics suggest. That we are one people. That we are one nation. And together we will begin the next great chapter in the American story with three words that will ring from coast to coast, from sea to shining sea. Yes. We. Can."

Let the next great chapter begin....:clap:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jjXyqcx-mYY

[Smiling JOe]

I though it brought in newly registered Democrats, who were really Republicans just wanting to vote for Hillary. ???

I'm not fighting to change the process of how the Dems select their choice. I could care less how the Dems select their choice. It just sounded as though you wished it were over and that the battle was not going to continue. That translates to me that you were tired of the process. If the process makes the party stronger, it would seem that everyone would want the race to go to the wire. I'm still not convinced that Hillary and Obama's camps like each other. I doubt many from either camp will be converting to McCain's, so in the end, they will likely stay at home, or vote for the Dem choice. Everyone knows that even though the name is not Bush, if it looks like a Bush, talks like a Bush, and walks like a Bush, it is still a Bush, regardless of the name on the door. I will go further to say that very few conservatives like McCain, and might be likely to follow that crazy girl, Laura Ingram, and vote for Obama or Hillary in the general election.

I just wish that at least one candidate gave us a little confidence in their knowledge of the economy. I've yet to hear that from any of them.

[BeachSiO2]

I just wish that at least one candidate gave us a little confidence in their knowledge of the economy. I've yet to hear that from any of them.

That's also my number one concern. All have "plans" with no dollars attached (or at least written down anywhere publically) but I have gone round and round on this issue. I just hope they realize they owe the Country a budget on February 2nd.

[Smiling JOe]

What good is a budget if they don't operate within the boundaries of it?

[BeachSiO2]

What good is a budget if they don't operate within the boundaries of it?

This year, Bush says he is going to veto any bill that comes to him that is outside his budgetary guidelines that he transmitted to Congress in February so there is the power of the pen.

[Smiling JOe]

... but he does this with forked tongue, spending China's money on expensive items, putting the burden of repayment on our children's children. Someone has to pay for things. That "free" FEMA money doesn't just happen.

[BeachSiO2]

... but he does this with forked tongue, spending China's money on expensive items, putting the burden of repayment on our children's children. Someone has to pay for things. That "free" FEMA money doesn't just happen.

But once again there is a budget that includes all revenues and expenditures (outside of emergency authorizations, like disasters) that he says he is going to hold them too. I just wonder which programs each nominee is ACTUALLY going to pursue and how much those will cost us. How much more debt will which candidate cause us to incur?

[rapunzel]

I though it brought in newly registered Democrats, who were really Republicans just wanting to vote for Hillary. ???

I'm not fighting to change the process of how the Dems select their choice. I could care less how the Dems select their choice. It just sounded as though you wished it were over and that the battle was not going to continue. That translates to me that you were tired of the process. If the process makes the party stronger, it would seem that everyone would want the race to go to the wire. I'm still not convinced that Hillary and Obama's camps like each other. I doubt many from either camp will be converting to McCain's, so in the end, they will likely stay at home, or vote for the Dem choice. Everyone knows that even though the name is not Bush, if it looks like a Bush, talks like a Bush, and walks like a Bush, it is still a Bush, regardless of the name on the door. I will go further to say that very few conservatives like McCain, and might be likely to follow that crazy girl, Laura Ingram, and vote for Obama or Hillary in the general election.

I just wish that at least one candidate gave us a little confidence in their knowledge of the economy. I've yet to hear that from any of them.

I was frustrated. I'll admit the Wright stuff got to me, and gave me pause about whether or not the 50 state strategy would work. But, in the end it did. Please keep in mind that I've realized since Wisconsin that she had no path to the nomination that didn't involve Superdelegates bridging the gap between his pledged delegates and hers, so the kitchen sink was particularly painful for me to watch. It was hard to see Democrats treat the electorate like idiots, and attack the potential nominee. However, the control of party strongmen that keeps candidates that fall behind in the early states from continuing to fight on also allows the party insiders to select the nominee -- and that way lie dragons.

[Smiling JOe]

Getting frustrated with poliTRICKS? I cannot imagine. :floor:

So Punzy, who is Obama talking about for the VP? I hear Sam Nunn's thrown about here and there, and he would likely have a strong pull from the Independents and some Republicans. Who will it be?

[rapunzel]

My money would be on Nunn or Casey.

Richardson, Webb, and McCaskill are also strong contenders.

McCaskill is my personal favorite, but that may come off as pandering. I think Casey brings Pennsylvania into the blue, and Nunn brings Georgia and North Carolina.

If I knew how to put money on a political market, I'd buy Nunn and Jindal (though I hope Jindal would refuse and focus on Louisiana where he's doing God's work).

[BeachSiO2]

My money would be on Nunn or Casey.

Richardson, Webb, and McCaskill are also strong contenders.

McCaskill is my personal favorite, but that may come off as pandering. I think Casey brings Pennsylvania into the blue, and Nunn brings Georgia and North Carolina.

If I knew how to put money on a political market, I'd buy Nunn and Jindal (though I hope Jindal would refuse and focus on Louisiana where he's doing God's work).

Do you think an Obama-Jindal ticket would win? It seems like having a son of two immigrants on a ticket with an African-American would fire up the Republican base. Not to mention the experience question due to their respective ages.

[Smiling JOe]

good question. I bet Sam Nunn could run a close race with John McCain. If he were on Obama's ticket, I'm quite sure it would give Obama an edge.

[rapunzel]

Do you think an Obama-Jindal ticket would win? It seems like having a son of two immigrants on a ticket with an African-American would fire up the Republican base. Not to mention the experience question due to their respective ages.

I meant I think Jindal will be McCain's first choice as running mate.

[BeachSiO2]

I meant I think Jindal will be McCain's first choice as running mate.

Gotcha. Talk about upsetting your base. I see the young, reformer angle as a contrast to the old guy, but I think the Repubs would blow a gasket. Its already bad enough that McCain is more moderate (especially on immigration), but add in Jindal (a son of two immigrants). :yikes:

[Beach Runner]

I meant I think Jindal will be McCain's first choice as running mate.
Charlie Melancon for Governor! :wave:

[rapunzel]

Gotcha. Talk about upsetting your base. I see the young, reformer angle as a contrast to the old guy, but I think the Repubs would blow a gasket. Its already bad enough that McCain is more moderate (especially on immigration), but add in Jindal (a son of two immigrants). :yikes:

The general is all about the independents. Independents are gravitating to Obama, and Jindal shares a lot of Obama's appeal. If the Republicans are in it to win it, they'll go with Jindal (who will probably refuse, in which case they go with Tim Pelawney to energize the base). If they elect to do a dress rehearsal for 2012, it will be Romney.

But let me gaze into my crystal ball and I will promise you, Jindal is the future of the Republican Party.

[BeachSiO2]

The general is all about the independents. Independents are gravitating to Obama, and Jindal shares a lot of Obama's appeal. If the Republicans are in it to win it, they'll go with Jindal (who will probably refuse, in which case they go with Tim Pelawney to energize the base). If they elect to do a dress rehearsal for 2012, it will be Romney.

But let me gaze into my crystal ball and I will promise you, Jindal is the future of the Republican Party.

I agree with your point about independents but in this one case, I see the base already extremely weak behind McCain already so he can't fight a war on two fronts. He is already fighting for independents no matter what so he has to solidify his base support.

Now for the future. I honestly cannot see how any present day presidential candidate will ever be able to emerge from the cesspool that is Louisiana politics, but I will keep an eye on Jindal. Maybe if he can get out of there fast enough but, others before him do not have so great of a track record.

[Rita]

You say this as though the super-delegates weren't politicians. They ARE politicians and will many know how the game is played. Many are waiting to be the important vote, or to get something else in return, such as a cabinet position. Others are waiting to be sure that Hillary doesn't come back and haunt them, if by some miracle FL and MI are counted and Hillary wins. They may as well go ahead and wait, just to be sure that they don't get caught voting for the wrong person, who in the end cannot do them any favors.

Although I am also cynical regarding politicians, I'm not as cynical as you. I believe many of these superdelegates are worried that if Clinton continues she will not only be throwing the kitchen sink at Obama but will be including the garbage disposal in it. :( . I think she has already stooped to that point.

Why would they want to watch her hurt the party more? At this point they could make moves and be on solid ground with the voters.

Former Sen. George McGovern, who backed Clinton, switched his endorsement to Obama this morning.

"McGovern said Wednesday he has decided to endorse Barack Obama. After watching the returns from the North Carolina and Indiana primaries Tuesday night, McGovern says it's virtually impossible for Clinton to win the nomination."


.

[Smiling JOe]

I hear you, Rita, but if that is the case, why isn't it already a closed case? Why do you think these super-delegates are holding out, if it isn't for political gain?

[Margarita]

I hear you, Rita, but if that is the case, why isn't it already a closed case? Why do you think these super-delegates are holding out, if it isn't for political gain?

I'm still confused as to what the role of the superdelagate is. Are they required to:

1. Vote how their constituents voted?

2. Vote for whoever is in the lead at a certain point in time? If so, when is that time determined?

3. Vote for whoever is most electable based on how the electoral college actually determines the Presidency?

4. Vote for what is best for the democratic party?

5. Vote for who they think will make the best President?

It's just all so ridiculous and now I see that Hillary has no intention of dropping out - she will fight to the bitter end :idontno:

[BeachSiO2]

I'm still confused as to what the role of the superdelagate is. Are they required to:

1. Vote how their constituents voted?

2. Vote for whoever is in the lead at a certain point in time? If so, when is that time determined?

3. Vote for whoever is most electable based on how the electoral college actually determines the Presidency?

4. Vote for what is best for the democratic party?

5. Vote for who they think will make the best President?

It's just all so ridiculous and now I see that Hillary has no intention of dropping out - she will fight to the bitter end :idontno:

My answer would be "No" to all but #5. The same as any other voter in America.

[Smiling JOe]

"super-delegates" are free to support any candidate.

[wrobert]

"super-delegates" are free to support any candidate.


And that is how she is going to steal the nomination. I believe some pledged super delegates will change their mind when it gets to the convention. And there will be rioting in major cities across this country.

[BeachSiO2]

And that is how she is going to steal the nomination. I believe some pledged super delegates will change their mind when it gets to the convention. And there will be rioting in major cities across this country.

I love your interjections on the story. They crack me up and it is right up the alley of a vast right wing conspiracy. :scratch:

[rapunzel]

Obama is the nominee. No riots, none needed.

[Rita]

.

This afternoon:

Obama Rollout Of Super-Dels Begins
By Eric Kleefeld - May 7, 2008, 2:46PM
The rollout begins.

The Obama camp is announcing some more super-delegate endorsements today, a first step in a process that they hope will end the nomination fight in a relatively short time.

The new super-dels are: DNC member Inola Henry of California, North Carolina party chair Jerry Meek, and North Carolina DNC member Jeanette Council, who'd first announced her support yesterday to a local newspaper.

This will bring Hillary's lead among super-delegates to less than 15.



.

[wrobert]

I love your interjections on the story. They crack me up and it is right up the alley of a vast right wing conspiracy. :scratch:


It would be even more funny if I actually believe half of what I posted on here.

A web site for everything. http://www.vastrightwingconspiracy.com/

[Beach Runner]

Hey, Hillary is assured of at least two superdelegate votes. I was looking at a list online. Both she and Bill are superdelegates.;-)

[InletBchDweller]

And that is how she is going to steal the nomination. I believe some pledged super delegates will change their mind when it gets to the convention. And there will be rioting in major cities across this country.



""The Denver Sheriff Department is preparing to handle up to 3,000 arrests during the 2008 Democratic National Convention, the director of corrections said Thursday. Bill Lovingier, who is also the undersheriff in charge of the jails, spoke about a wide range of preparations for handling the possibility of mass arrests after criticisms by the Colorado American Civil Liberties Union were reported in The Denver Post.""

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_9125708

[30A Skunkape]

""The Denver Sheriff Department is preparing to handle up to 3,000 arrests during the 2008 Democratic National Convention, the director of corrections said Thursday. Bill Lovingier, who is also the undersheriff in charge of the jails, spoke about a wide range of preparations for handling the possibility of mass arrests after criticisms by the Colorado American Civil Liberties Union were reported in The Denver Post.""

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_9125708

:popcorn:

[BeachSiO2]

Not just the convention, would you want to be on the secret service detail of the first black president?

There's too many crazies out there for me!

[rapunzel]

Not just the convention, would you want to be on the secret service detail of the first black president?

There's too many crazies out there for me!

Stop that talk. Stop it now.

Incidentally, people are volunteering left and right for his Secret Service detail. His agents love him. A couple I met in SC said it was the best assignment they'd ever had. One of the guys actually handles the overflow crowds better than any political aide I've ever seen and belongs on staff as director of communications.

The Secret Service guys were actually one of the things that convinced me Obama was as good and decent as he comes across in his books.

[jdarg]

I am not understanding why so many arrests are expected during the convention. Will somebody please explain it to me?

[BeachSiO2]

Stop that talk. Stop it now.

Incidentally, people are volunteering left and right for his Secret Service detail. His agents love him. A couple I met in SC said it was the best assignment they'd ever had. One of the guys actually handles the overflow crowds better than any political aide I've ever seen and belongs on staff as director of communications.

The Secret Service guys were actually one of the things that convinced me Obama was as good and decent as he comes across in his books.

I am not saying ANYTHING about him, but I grew up in the South. I had two black roomates at a university in the south and have seen the feelings that even people my age still have, need I remind you of the Jena 6 students.

Its a sad state of affairs but it doesn't make it less real. Keep in mind even in the Dem primary he didn't win the white working class vote. While one demographic is going to be very happy there is another that won't be. Ironically, I write all this as I am driving through the mountains of western North Carolina where a think a majority of unhappy people will reside.

[jdarg]

I am not saying ANYTHING about him, but I grew up in the South. I had two black roomates at a university in the south and have seen the feelings that even people my age still have, need I remind you of the Jena 6 students.

Its a sad state of affairs but it doesn't make it less real. Keep in mind even in the Dem primary he didn't win the white working class vote. While one demographic is going to be very happy there is another that won't be. Ironically, I write all this as I am driving through the mountains of western North Carolina where a think a majority of unhappy people will reside.

If you stop typing while driving, I will thank you for your post!

Where are you so I can be jealous?

[BeachSiO2]

If you stop typing while driving, I will thank you for your post!

Where are you so I can be jealous?

I thought you didn't want me posting :)

I am headed to Asheville for work. Any thoughts on where I should eat tonight?

[Miss Kitty]

I thought you didn't want me posting :)

I am headed to Asheville for work. Any thoughts on where I should eat tonight?

:nono1:...you had better be the passenger!

[BeachSiO2]

:nono1:...you had.better be the passenger!

You guys better quit hijacking Punzy's thread. ;)

[rapunzel]

Jack of the Woods. Be careful, though...they don't take kindly to Yuppies there.

[BeachSiO2]

Jack of the Woods. Be careful, though...they don't take kindly to Yuppies there.

What about Khakis and a golf shirt. Am I in trouble?

[jdarg]

What about Khakis and a golf shirt. Am I in trouble?

You are fine- awesome place.

Smiley J gets the credit for this one!

[Smiling JOe]

Obama is the nominee. No riots, none needed.

What about a hissy fit, then?


Do you guys know how to tell how much Hillary has contributed to the campaigns of the super-delegates? I wonder if that is where she blew so much of her money? :idontno:

[Smiling JOe]

Not just the convention, would you want to be on the secret service detail of the first black president?

There's too many crazies out there for me!

Come on, BeachSio2. Didn't you read the news? We overcame racism.

[Smiling JOe]

I thought you didn't want me posting :)

I am headed to Asheville for work. Any thoughts on where I should eat tonight?
Savoy (http://www.savoyasheville.com/), for dinner.
641 Merrimon Ave
Asheville, NC 28804
(828) 253-1077


In the morning, drive up towards Weaverville and eat at Stony Knob Cafe. It is way cool. (seven minutes from Asheville)
337 Merrimon Avenue, Weaverville, NC
828-645-3309

[BeachSiO2]

Savoy (http://www.savoyasheville.com/), for dinner.
641 Merrimon Ave
Asheville, NC 28804
(828) 253-1077


In the morning, drive up towards Weaverville and eat at Stony Knob Cafe. It is way cool. (seven minutes from Asheville)
337 Merrimon Avenue, Weaverville, NC
828-645-3309

Just got in from Jack in the Woods and SJ rec's for Asheville dining are two for two so rep is forthcoming to all. I now have two more for the list :)

[scooterbug44]

Not just the convention, would you want to be on the secret service detail of the first black president?

There's too many crazies out there for me!

Outside your racist little bubble, people are actually involved in violence against the government for many reasons besides skin color.

It may not be a sign of progress, just of priorities, but the most frequent and most deadly attacks are for political reasons, not racial ones.

Religion has killed more people and caused more wars than anything else, and just in case you haven't noticed the billions we've been pouring down a rathole and the thousands of my peers who are dying or being maimed, the Islamic fundmentalists aren't so happy with us lately.

[BeachSiO2]

Come on, BeachSio2. Didn't you read the news? We overcame racism.

Maybe for an election, but I also heard there were some gun toting bitter people out there!

[rapunzel]

There are also a lot of environmental terrorists and Minutemen....crazies come in every stripe, and I don't believe we have any more reason to fear an assassin with Obama than with any other would be President. People thought Kennedy's Catholicism might provoke an assassin, but no one could have predicted Hinckley's theory that Jodi Foster would fall in love with him if he shot Reagan.

Crazies rarely operate with rhyme or reason.

[BeachSiO2]

Outside your racist little bubble, people are actually involved in violence against the government for many reasons besides skin color.

It may not be a sign of progress, just of priorities, but the most frequent and most deadly attacks are for political reasons, not racial ones.

Religion has killed more people and caused more wars than anything else, and just in case you haven't noticed the billions we've been pouring down a rathole and the thousands of my peers who are dying or being maimed, the Islamic fundmentalists aren't so happy with us lately.

I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities with my comments but I don't live in a racist little bubble. I was just stating that it would not surprise me if his election didn't come without attack. I agree that political reasons are often reasons for those attacks, but I also know that the last non-WASP president didn't fair to well. Is that reason not to vote for him he11 know, but it is a reality that could occur.

Also, to use your analogy about who's been attacking us, is different than who has tried to assasinate presidents in the past, it's typically an angry white male. With all the crazies out there, during a time of economic crises I could see someone try something VERY terrible. I hope it doesn't happen, but it could.

[BeachSiO2]

There are also a lot of environmental terrorists and Minutemen....crazies come in every stripe, and I don't believe we have any more reason to fear an assassin with Obama than with any other would be President. People thought Kennedy's Catholicism might provoke an assassin, but no one could have predicted Hinckley's theory that Jodi Foster would fall in love with him if he shot Reagan.

Crazies rarely operate with rhyme or reason.

I hope you are correct and like I said it will not be a factor in my vote. Sorry if I offended anyone by my posing the terrible scenario.

[rapunzel]

Don't assassins typically see themselves as avenging some personal slight? I mean, people thought Kennedy was in danger on religious grounds, but it was something more personal that motivated the assassin in the end, no matter which theory you subscribe to....

The thing that really bothers me about this whole topic is that it was a rumor used very heavily in South Carolina to try to suppress turnout. On the Sunday before the election, I saw Michelle take a question on this, and she spoke very eloquently about how they had discussed the risk, and they decided if that kept him from running, no person of color would ever run for that very reason. She talked about why Barack was so sure the this was his time to run, that the time for his type of leadership had come, and that they, as a family, believed that the importance of the task warranted the courage it would take to be the first African American. People spat on Willie Mays, until they saw how good he was at his job. She said she had faith the same would happen if Barack was elected, and she was counting on the Secret Service to be extra diligent during the transition -- to which they all laughed.

The main reason I hope you are wrong, though, is because I assured two different little old black women that I didn't believe that he was in any more danger than anyone else in that position. I do believe that. I hope and pray that I did not mislead those women.

[scooterbug44]

I am enough of a Pollyanna that I think the Secret Service is more than a match for a racist idiot in a dirty sheet.

Maybe I've read too many Tom Clancy books, maybe I am too young to understand that kind of hate, maybe I'm just so happy to have such a wonderful candidate for president that I am ignoring other people's prejudices and mental incapacities.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but maybe, just maybe, I will enjoy watching the racist *%#(#&O(#(%@ eat their words when we have a man who is part African put our country back on the right track.

[Mango]

I hope you are correct and like I said it will not be a factor in my vote. Sorry if I offended anyone by my posing the terrible scenario.

No offense taken, at least not here anyway. I don't think it is a topic that hasn't crossed people's minds at some point. Actually, I fear our own govt. more than any crazy coming out of the woodwork.

[BeachSiO2]

Don't assassins typically see themselves as avenging some personal slight? I mean, people thought Kennedy was in danger on religious grounds, but it was something more personal that motivated the assassin in the end, no matter which theory you subscribe to....

The thing that really bothers me about this whole topic is that it was a rumor used very heavily in South Carolina to try to suppress turnout. On the Sunday before the election, I saw Michelle take a question on this, and she spoke very eloquently about how they had discussed the risk, and they decided if that kept him from running, no person of color would ever run for that very reason. She talked about why Barack was so sure the this was his time to run, that the time for his type of leadership had come, and that they, as a family, believed that the importance of the task warranted the courage it would take to be the first African American. People spat on Willie Mays, until they saw how good he was at his job. She said she had faith the same would happen if Barack was elected, and she was counting on the Secret Service to be extra diligent during the transition -- to which they all laughed.

The main reason I hope you are wrong, though, is because I assured two different little old black women that I didn't believe that he was in any more danger than anyone else in that position. I do believe that. I hope and pray that I did not mislead those women.

Punzy, I never said it was going to happen. I said it could happen, just like Hillary could still win the nomination. As for it suppressing the vote, I just don't get why that would happen. He could get in a car wreck tomorrow, struck by lightning, bit by a shark, but they should still vote for him. I just never thought of it as a vote suppression technique but maybe that scare tactic is part of the grand plan by the vast right wing conspiracy.

[rapunzel]

I am enough of a Pollyanna that I think the Secret Service is more than a match for a racist idiot in a dirty sheet.

Maybe I've read too many Tom Clancy books, maybe I am too young to understand that kind of hate, maybe I'm just so happy to have such a wonderful candidate for president that I am ignoring other people's prejudices and mental incapacities.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but maybe, just maybe, I will enjoy watching the racist *%#(#&O(#(%@ eat their words when we have a man who is part African put our country back on the right track.

Pollyanna Twins! :wave::wave:

[Tootsie]

I am enough of a Pollyanna that I think the Secret Service is more than a match for a racist idiot in a dirty sheet.

Maybe I've read too many Tom Clancy books, maybe I am too young to understand that kind of hate, maybe I'm just so happy to have such a wonderful candidate for president that I am ignoring other people's prejudices and mental incapacities.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but maybe, just maybe, I will enjoy watching the racist *%#(#&O(#(%@ eat their words when we have a man who is part African put our country back on the right track.

me and you both sistah!

btw & fyi, beachsio is a lovely friend who would never live in a racist bubble. in fact, he's an obama supporter. right beachsio? we were just kidding a while back about his confederate flag bed sheet set.:lol: picking on him since he lives in South Carolina.

[30A Skunkape]

We are all out of Africa:biggrin:

[Smiling JOe]

Maybe for an election, but I also heard there were some gun toting bitter people out there!I bet you are right, but the difference now is that if they attempt such a stupid thing, they will swiftly be brought to justice.

One sure way for Obama not to have any trouble out of those yahoos is to bring in Hillary for the VP, because those guys also have trouble with women telling them what to do.

[Smiling JOe]

BeachSiO2, how ironic would it be if Obama saved the white man from economic depression? They would probably blame it on someone else.

[30A Skunkape]

BeachSiO2, how ironic would it be if Obama saved the white man from economic depression? They would probably blame it on someone else.

The Jews are always available for scapegoating. If not them, we can always blame Canadians.

[Santiago]

I got on the phone to make some calls. I got a list of 15 people, all men. So far, four calls...four women have answered and wanted to know what I wanted with their husbands. Oops.

Hey Mermy, what's up with Carmel? I think they're prejudiced against Southerners...

Tis -- you should make some calls since you don't have an accent. :funn:

I'm sure this is part of the gun toting, church going crowd.

[beachmouse]

Incidentally, people are volunteering left and right for his Secret Service detail. His agents love him. A couple I met in SC said it was the best assignment they'd ever had.

I've heard that as well. If the Secret Service could pick a president, they'd pick Obama right now. And as a group, they're a misanthropic lot who rarely actively likes anyone. (They see far too much of the sausage-making part of politics) So when they do like someone, it's actually a pretty good indicator of character.


The Jews are always available for scapegoating. If not them, we can always blame Canadians.

Blame Canada
With all their hockey hullabaloo
And that *bleep* Anne Murray too
Blame Canada
Shame on Canada

[Mermaid]

I'm sure this is part of the gun toting, church going crowd.

No, you are mistaken on that account.
http://www.ci.carmel.in.us/

[30A Skunkape]

I knew a girl from Carmel while at LSU. She was lovingly dubbed 'the troll':lol:

[InletBchDweller]

I hope you are correct and like I said it will not be a factor in my vote. Sorry if I offended anyone by my posing the terrible scenario.

Your thoughts are your thoughts, don't apologize for them. Saying you are in a "racist bubble"? I don't think that you are at all.....:wave: