Honk for Confederate Pride

[TooFarTampa]

I can't believe I beat Walton GOP to posting this. Enjoy ...

from tampabay.com/buzz

Rep. Don Brown, R-DeFuniak Springs, has filed legislation to create a new license plate featuring the Confederate battle flag.

But the controversial nature of the flag and failure to establish a plate before makes for a difficult road to approval.

The plate, featuring four Confederate-era flags as well as buttons worn by soldiers, was designed by the Florida division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. The group pitched the idea last year and got nowhere. Proceeds would be used for education programs and graveyard restoration.

Florida, like other Southern states, has struggled over the image of the Confederate flag and the plate will surely stir controversy. In 2001, Gov. Jeb Bush discreetly removed the flag from the Capitol. His successor, Gov. Charlie Crist, has made inroads with the African-American community that sees the flag as an enduring symbol of racism.

"A lot of people are making a big issue out of it," Brown said. "But all we're doing is giving individuals the right to choose to make a statement about their heritage." That's no different, he said, than people who want to see Martin Luther King Jr's name grace street signs. Browns says he is one of them and has sponsored a bill to rename part of Highway 90 in Walton County after the slain civil rights leader.

A handful of other states have Confederate heritage plates, including Georgia, Louisiana and North Carolina.

[TooFarTampa]

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/images/2008/02/25/florida_tag_sm2.jpg

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2008/02/honk-for-confed.html#comments

[Beach Runner]

Say it ain't so!

[hnooe]

Doesn't Don Brown (R) have anything better to do up in DeFuniak. Don't we currently have enough vanity plates already..I guess he is up for re-election in Nov? ....enough said.

On the positive side, I like the graphics of the plate, classier than car flags or a plastic bumber sticker. Unfortunately, the message that flag sends still remains misconstrued, and always will.

[wrobert]

I can't believe I beat Walton GOP to posting this. Enjoy ...

from tampabay.com/buzz

Rep. Don Brown, R-DeFuniak Springs, has filed legislation to create a new license plate featuring the Confederate battle flag.

But the controversial nature of the flag and failure to establish a plate before makes for a difficult road to approval.

The plate, featuring four Confederate-era flags as well as buttons worn by soldiers, was designed by the Florida division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. The group pitched the idea last year and got nowhere. Proceeds would be used for education programs and graveyard restoration.

Florida, like other Southern states, has struggled over the image of the Confederate flag and the plate will surely stir controversy. In 2001, Gov. Jeb Bush discreetly removed the flag from the Capitol. His successor, Gov. Charlie Crist, has made inroads with the African-American community that sees the flag as an enduring symbol of racism.

"A lot of people are making a big issue out of it," Brown said. "But all we're doing is giving individuals the right to choose to make a statement about their heritage." That's no different, he said, than people who want to see Martin Luther King Jr's name grace street signs. Browns says he is one of them and has sponsored a bill to rename part of Highway 90 in Walton County after the slain civil rights leader.

A handful of other states have Confederate heritage plates, including Georgia, Louisiana and North Carolina.


I did not get a google on it until late.

[InletBchDweller]

Doesn't Don Brown (R) have anything better to do up in DeFuniak. Don't we currently have enough vanity plates already..I guess he is up for re-election in Nov? ....enough said.

On the positive side, I like the graphics of the plate, classier than car flags or a plastic bumber sticker. Unfortunately, the message that flag sends still remains misconstrued, and always will.

And personally, I hate that...

[wrobert]

Doesn't Don Brown (R) have anything better to do up in DeFuniak. Don't we currently have enough vanity plates already..I guess he is up for re-election in Nov? ....enough said.

On the positive side, I like the graphics of the plate, classier than car flags or a plastic bumber sticker. Unfortunately, the message that flag sends still remains misconstrued, and always will.

Re-election has never played a role in Don's representation of his district. But he does get re-elected at some of the highest rates in the State of Florida, and has been rated an A+ legislator by several non-partisan organizations.

I also believe that we have way too many vanity plates in this State, but in a country with a 1st amendment, is it fair that we allow some to have plates for their causes yet others are not allowed because as a majority we do not care for their cause? If the plate is allowed, one can just choose not to purchase it if they do not support the message.

The bill was submitted at the request of a group of constituents. Do we want someone in office that represents everyone, or just represents people that they agree with?

The plate does look kind of neat, imho.

[InletBchDweller]

Re-election has never played a role in Don's representation of his district. But he does get re-elected at some of the highest rates in the State of Florida, and has been rated an A+ legislator by several non-partisan organizations.

I also believe that we have way too many vanity plates in this State, but in a country with a 1st amendment, is it fair that we allow some to have plates for their causes yet others are not allowed because as a majority we do not care for their cause? If the plate is allowed, one can just choose not to purchase it if they do not support the message.

The bill was submitted at the request of a group of constituents. Do we want someone in office that represents everyone, or just represents people that they agree with?

The plate does look kind of neat, imho.

good point, WGOP, I do buy the vanity plates for all my vehicles. You know that plate would look GOOD on my beach Bronco...:cool:

[wrobert]

good point, WGOP, I do buy the vanity plates for all my vehicles. You know that plate would look GOOD on my beach Bronco...:cool:


On another note, Representative Brown will be speaking to his OK styled immigration bill that he introduced also this session, at McLeans Restaraunt in DeFuniak Springs tomorrow at the North Walton Republican Club, 6PM. Agree with him or not, he is a very engaging speaker, born and raised in Walton County from the Portland area outside of Freeport. He is a hilarious story teller.

Many will remember some of Don's quotes about the various Governor's iniatives over the last few months. He is not a Crist fan.

[elgordoboy]

Re-election has never played a role in Don's representation of his district. But he does get re-elected at some of the highest rates in the State of Florida, and has been rated an A+ legislator by several non-partisan organizations.

I also believe that we have way too many vanity plates in this State, but in a country with a 1st amendment, is it fair that we allow some to have plates for their causes yet others are not allowed because as a majority we do not care for their cause? If the plate is allowed, one can just choose not to purchase it if they do not support the message.

The bill was submitted at the request of a group of constituents. Do we want someone in office that represents everyone, or just represents people that they agree with?

The plate does look kind of neat, imho.
I have a cousin who in our twenties would flip down his license plate when leaving his car and in Altanta. His tag read Forsyth and for those who do not know that county is where Hosea Williams (black civil rights activist) got hit in the head with a brick during a rally a couple of decades ago. He was afraid of people keying his car. I would find the confederate plate needlessly inflammatory plus I like my trucks finish as is.

[BeachSiO2]

How long will it be until someone calls "it" the "War of Northern Aggression?":idontno:

[30A Skunkape]

I can't find an image of Louisiana's Sons of Confederate Veteran's plate, but the state's DMV says that the funds from each plate are devoted to the purchase of Louisiana history texts for schools. One thing that thankfully was absent from ole Lou was an absence of Confederate flag mania...the state flag features a Pelican and was never altered in the name of the lost cause.

[chrisv]

How long will it be until someone calls "it" the "War of Northern Aggression?":idontno:

The recent unpleasantries.

[TooFarTampa]

Re-election has never played a role in Don's representation of his district. But he does get re-elected at some of the highest rates in the State of Florida, and has been rated an A+ legislator by several non-partisan organizations.

I also believe that we have way too many vanity plates in this State, but in a country with a 1st amendment, is it fair that we allow some to have plates for their causes yet others are not allowed because as a majority we do not care for their cause? If the plate is allowed, one can just choose not to purchase it if they do not support the message.

The bill was submitted at the request of a group of constituents. Do we want someone in office that represents everyone, or just represents people that they agree with?

The plate does look kind of neat, imho.

In this case I would say absolutely, because like it or not, the Confederate flag has become a divisive and inflammatory symbol to the vast majority of Americans.

When so many prominent and not so prominent hate groups have adapted what once was regarded as a symbol of pride, well, to quote The Princess Bride: "I do not think it means what you think it means."

The swastika for thousands of years was used to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. But in our post-Nazi Germany world it is IMO the most repellant symbol known to man.

I would not rate the Confederate flag as being quite so repellant -- but there are some that would. The Confederacy was not the same as Nazi Germany, but there are people who have used the Confederate flag as a symbol of their own evil, and while those people did not have the power that Hitler did, some of them had just as much evil in them. The KKK comes to mind.

Displaying the Confederate flag may not make you a racist, but it undoubtedly symbolizes racism to many. And it HAS been used as a prop or cover by some. Consider this story, from Infoplease.com:

In 1956, Georgia adopted a new state flag that, like Mississippi's, incorporated the Confederate battle flag in its design. The flag, introduced two years after Brown v. Board of Education (1954), represented the Georgia legislature's protest against forced integration. Although some claim the new flag was adopted in anticipation of the Confederate Centennial in the 1960s, this argument was largely dismissed as disingenuous. In fact, the very sponsor of 1956 flag, former Georgia House floor speaker Denmark Groover, openly admitted forty-five years later that defiance of segregation was the motivating force behind the new flag, not historical sentiment.

And in Feb. 2001, in Tallahassee:

"Renovations required the removal of the four flags flying above the capitol. The flags, each representing a part of Florida's history, included Spanish, French, and British flags as well as the Confederate "stainless banner," the second national flag of the Confederacy. At the request of Governor Jeb Bush, none of the flags was again raised above the capitol. A spokesperson for Governor Bush commented that, "the governor believes that most Floridians would agree that the symbols of Florida's past should not be displayed in a manner that may divide Floridians today."

[elgordoboy]

In this case I would say absolutely, because like it or not, the Confederate flag has become a divisive and inflammatory symbol to the vast majority of Americans.

When so many prominent and not so prominent hate groups have adapted what once was regarded as a symbol of pride, well, to quote The Princess Bride: "I do not think it means what you think it means."

The swastika for thousands of years was used to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. But in our post-Nazi Germany world it is IMO the most repellant symbol known to man.

I would not rate the Confederate flag as being quite so repellant -- but there are some that would. The Confederacy was not the same as Nazi Germany, but there are people who have used the Confederate flag as a symbol of their own evil, and while those people did not have the power that Hitler did, some of them had just as much evil in them. The KKK comes to mind.

Displaying the Confederate flag may not make you a racist, but it undoubtedly symbolizes racism to many. And it HAS been used as a prop or cover by some. Consider this story, from Infoplease.com:

In 1956, Georgia adopted a new state flag that, like Mississippi's, incorporated the Confederate battle flag in its design. The flag, introduced two years after Brown v. Board of Education (1954), represented the Georgia legislature's protest against forced integration. Although some claim the new flag was adopted in anticipation of the Confederate Centennial in the 1960s, this argument was largely dismissed as disingenuous. In fact, the very sponsor of 1956 flag, former Georgia House floor speaker Denmark Groover, openly admitted forty-five years later that defiance of segregation was the motivating force behind the new flag, not historical sentiment.

And in Feb. 2001, in Tallahassee:

"Renovations required the removal of the four flags flying above the capitol. The flags, each representing a part of Florida's history, included Spanish, French, and British flags as well as the Confederate "stainless banner," the second national flag of the Confederacy. At the request of Governor Jeb Bush, none of the flags was again raised above the capitol. A spokesperson for Governor Bush commented that, "the governor believes that most Floridians would agree that the symbols of Florida's past should not be displayed in a manner that may divide Floridians today."
Excellent post.

[InletBchDweller]

ok, what about these tags??? I am not saying that they offend me but somebody could put a twist on it showing how each of the tags below would offend someone - just like the Confederate flag does some.

http://www3.hsmv.state.fl.us/Intranet/dmv/specialtytags/graphics/choose_life.jpg




http://www3.hsmv.state.fl.us/Intranet/dmv/specialtytags/graphics/florida_sheriff_youth_ranch.jpg


http://www3.hsmv.state.fl.us/Intranet/dmv/specialtytags/graphics/NASCAR.jpg



http://www3.hsmv.state.fl.us/Intranet/dmv/specialtytags/graphics/live_the_dream.jpg

[TooFarTampa]

1) This has been the most controversial one by far but the most offensive thing about IMO it is it could be construed as "anti-privacy". I don't think it evokes an emotional reaction like the Confederate flag tends to do.

2) I don't know how this one could be offensive. I am offended by the pretend cops organizations that call and ask me for money all the time. :bang:

3) :floor:

4) MLK: He did play around on his wife, but otherwise? An inspirational, not offensive, figure.

[jdarg]

#1 is problematic because a "balance" plate was never offered- some sort of reproductive freedom theme.

IMO- there should not be a license plate for either side of the choice issue- personal matters do not belong on license plates.

[TooFarTampa]

#1 is problematic because a "balance" plate was never offered- some sort of reproductive freedom theme.

IMO- there should not be a license plate for either side of the choice issue- personal matters do not belong on license plates.

Some people are calling for the end of vanity plates altogether. It will never happen -- they raise lots of money for major universities, and a bit of money for the minor ones. Also the Florida panther and the manatees.

[chrisv]

Some people are calling for the end of vanity plates altogether. It will never happen -- they raise lots of money for major universities, and a bit of money for the minor ones. Also the Florida panther and the manatees.

FY 2007 revenue report (http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us/html/SpecPlateRev.html)

Where the money goes (http://www3.hsmv.state.fl.us/Intranet/dmv/specialtytags/specialindex.cfm)
(you might be surprised)

[TooFarTampa]

FY 2007 revenue report (http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us/html/SpecPlateRev.html)

Where the money goes (http://www3.hsmv.state.fl.us/Intranet/dmv/specialtytags/specialindex.cfm)
(you might be surprised)

There are just so many! :blink: The poor Girl Scouts, Orlando Predators and Tampa Bay Storm. :roll:

[jdarg]

Maybe if more people had purchased the Family Values plate, then so many people would not have had to buy the Choose Life plate.

($56,625 raised vs. $805,380)

:floor:

[ShallowsNole]

Gotta have my FSU plate. I'd feel naked without it. Some people buy specialty plates to match their car; I buy cars to match my plates. :biggrin:

[jdarg]

I think Uncle Timmy needs a "Share the Road- Bike Florida" plate.:lol:

[InletBchDweller]

1) This has been the most controversial one by far but the most offensive thing about IMO it is it could be construed as "anti-privacy". I don't think it evokes an emotional reaction like the Confederate flag tends to do.

2) I don't know how this one could be offensive. I am offended by the pretend cops organizations that call and ask me for money all the time. :bang:

3) :floor:

4) MLK: He did play around on his wife, but otherwise? An inspirational, not offensive, figure.

Maybe I shouldnt have said offensive, just controversial. It could pull up some upsets in some, like for instance the mother that wanted an abortion but when she pulled up to the clinic her boyfriend was gunned down by anti abortion activists....:idontno: She could be a big advocate for pro choice and every time she saw this tag makes her remember that horrible day...


I thought Nascar and the Rebel flag went hand in hand - dear sweet little baby jesus!! :floor:


Some would say that Louis Farrakhan, Jim Jones, Ghandi or The Pope are inspirational but I dont see them on a tag....:idontno: IJS...

[InletBchDweller]

Maybe if more people had purchased the Family Values plate, then so many people would not have had to buy the Choose Life plate.

($56,625 raised vs. $805,380)

:floor: OMG, :rofl:

Gotta have my FSU plate. I'd feel naked without it. Some people buy specialty plates to match their car; I buy cars to match my plates. :biggrin: tru dat, i know many also...:lol:

[ShallowsNole]

Actually, the Boys Ranch and the former Bay County boot camp were/are totally unrelated. The Boys Ranch is over in the Big Bend area, somewhere.

And I know several folks - coworkers included - who have the nascar tag. :roll:

[TooFarTampa]

Maybe I shouldnt have said offensive, just controversial. It could pull up some upsets in some, like for instance the mother that wanted an abortion but when she pulled up to the clinic her boyfriend was gunned down by anti abortion activists....:idontno: She could be a big advocate for pro choice and every time she saw this tag makes her remember that horrible day...

#2 was b/c of the whole sherrifs boy ranch death that occured in Bay county. Some people would be upset just by seeing that plate b/c of what happened. I listened to many morning shows out of Bay county, trust me, some people wanted blood.

I get it now ... I thought the ranch was a different program from the boot camp. They look so warm and fuzzy on their website. :shock:


Some would say that Louis Farrakhan, Jim Jones, Ghandi or The Pope are inspirational but I dont see them on a tag....:idontno: IJS

Interesting group there ... I think all the people who found Jim Jones to be inspirational have been dead for 30 years. :roll:

[InletBchDweller]

Actually, the Boys Ranch and the former Bay County boot camp were/are totally unrelated. The Boys Ranch is over in the Big Bend area, somewhere.

And I know several folks - coworkers included - who have the nascar tag. :roll: OOPS, my bad......I will take it off....

I get it now ... I thought the ranch was a different program from the boot camp. They look so warm and fuzzy on their website. :shock:



Interesting group there ... I think all the people who found Jim Jones to be inspirational have been dead for 30 years. :roll:

:lol: yes that is true....


I was just thinking of inspirational leaders, that is what came to mind.....

[InletBchDweller]

I, IBD, came from several backgrounds.

1. Choctaw Indian, 100% full blooded, not too far down the blood line. As I have some Indian blood running through my veins couldnt I say that the American flag offends me b/c it reminds me of the time that my relatives land was taken from them???

2. I have deep Southern roots. I am proud of that. We have records of cane farming and slave trading in my family records. I am proud of my heritage and feel that if I want to display the Confederate flag on my car then I should....

3. I have Northern (Union) roots. My grandfathers family are all from the North. If I wanted to find and attach a Union tag to my car then why should I not be able to???




Can anyone please explain to me why this symbol (Confederate flag) offends people??? Should we start a new thread for this one???:idontno:

[Tootsie]

1) This has been the most controversial one by far but the most offensive thing about IMO it is it could be construed as "anti-privacy". I don't think it evokes an emotional reaction like the Confederate flag tends to do.

2) I don't know how this one could be offensive. I am offended by the pretend cops organizations that call and ask me for money all the time. :bang:

3) :floor:

4) MLK: He did play around on his wife, but otherwise? An inspirational, not offensive, figure.

yes.

#1 is problematic because a "balance" plate was never offered- some sort of reproductive freedom theme.

IMO- there should not be a license plate for either side of the choice issue- personal matters do not belong on license plates.

and yes.


I mean, I like seeing all the different plates - that sends out a positive message, helps animals and the environment, and all these that are not controversial. golf, education, manatees, sea turtles, etc. come on, these are very okay with everyone.

what the hail is it about the south and its confederate self? this is 2008 people. get a clue.

I mean, I do encourage present day rebels to seek proper southern decor for their homes, such as a giant confederate flag print on a bedspread with matching custom drapes - perhaps some lovely murals depicting the 1800's all the way through civil rights and even today with that flag just a waving and protesting. those who are into such decor would have many years of personal enjoyment relaxing in this battlefield flag theme and reminiscing about the old days of the civil war and slavery or civil rights protests or just rebel sheeit in general. and it would certainly not offend me - I would never see it but if I did I think I would be greatly entertained and probably wet my pants. and that's all I'm saying.

wait. I did have one more thing. I guess I must admit that this group probably should be able to have their vanity plate, as much as I dislike having to look at it in 2008. I mean, it is a symbol of southern history and pride in addition to the ignorance and bigotry it also came to represent over the years (you cannot separate these out from the overall symbol unfortunately). I say, if someone wants it on their car, then they probably ought to have it. they deserve it in fact.

[InletBchDweller]

I mean, I do think a big confederate flag print on your bedspread with matching custom drapes. those who are into the southern decor would have many years of personal enjoyment relaxing in this battlefield flag theme and reminiscing about the old days of the civil war and slavery or civil rights protests or just rebel sheeit in general. and it would certainly not offend me - I would never see it but if I did I think I would be greatly entertained and probably wet my pants. and that's all I'm saying.[/quote]

That is what I am saying. the Rebel flag and/or the Civil War was NOT all about slavery- just a small portion. After reading history books on the Civil War you will see that the war was about about money and control, it is funny how they teach you different in school.... :roll:

[Mango]

Since when is an old flag a source of pride that's a reminder of a short period of time in our history that this entire country should be embarrassed about and what it respresents? To me it represents a power struggle where slaves were used as pawns by both the Union and the seceding States.

[InletBchDweller]

wait. I did have one more thing. I guess I must admit that this group probably should be able to have their vanity plate, as much as I dislike having to look at it in 2008. I mean, it is a symbol of southern history and pride in addition to the hate and bigotry it also came to represent over the years (you cannot separate these out from the overall symbol unfortunately). I say, if someone wants it on their car, then they probably outght to have it. they deserve it in fact.

I understand that some people feel that way. Trying to attach the flag to the KKK and other racial hate groups. You know the flag did not ask to be associated with those groups. They chose to associate it with them. You know, kinda like Obama and Ferrahkan. Obamas church gave Ferrakhan an award but just because Obama goes to that church does that make him a follower of Ferrakhan??:idontno:

People view the flag on the way that they were taught. Your feelings are from your learning, my feelings are from my learning. Yes, I know it is 2008 but from what I remember this is a free country and isn't it my right to offend and be offended???

[Mango]

Yes, I know it is 2008 but from what I remember this is a free country and isn't it my right to offend and be offended???

Yes, it's your Constitutional right. Offend all you want. This Yankee will still love ya. :wave:

[InletBchDweller]

Yes, it's your Constitutional right. Offend all you want. This Yankee will still love ya. :wave:

well yee haw!! Im a gonna go get me sum Hank on and sing Dixie...:lol:
(and buy that tag):biggrin:

[Tootsie]

Since when is an old flag a source of pride that's a reminder of a short period of time in our history that this entire country should be embarrassed about and what it respresents? To me it represents a power struggle where slaves were used as pawns by both the Union and the seceding States.

It is embarrassing, but it is also truth. Truth in events, good and bad, southern pride and prejudice, battles and protests. It represents a lot of history which begins with the confederacy and continues to this day - it is called a rebel flag because it is a battle flag, first used on the battlefield and ever after used in protests and a southern symbol. I am not saying it should be banned - it is historical. and anyone who understands history will understand the broad meaning of what the confederate flag has come to symbolize. most do not really know. the rebel flag stands for something they choose, not based on any historical events. therefore, they cannot be embarrassed, because they do not know.

I would bet that canadians and europeans know more about what the confederacy stood for and what its flag represented and came to represent over time, than a southerner.

I understand that some people feel that way. Trying to attach the flag to the KKK and other racial hate groups. You know the flag did not ask to be associated with those groups. They chose to associate it with them. You know, kinda like Obama and Ferrahkan. Obamas church gave Ferrakhan an award but just because Obama goes to that church does that make him a follower of Ferrakhan??:idontno:
:yikes: I don't know what to say about this analogy other than I don't get it.

People view the flag on the way that they were taught. Your feelings are from your learning, my feelings are from my learning. Yes, I know it is 2008 but from what I remember this is a free country and isn't it my right to offend and be offended???

I was taught next to nothing about the flag as a child, and took it for granted entirely - just like so many who grow up around a symbol and it just "is" - we see it here and there. I knew it was a "rebel" flag, I knew its origins sorta, I knew it hung in the trucks of rednecks with a gun rack. But, then I studied history and over time, and with much more information to draw from and events to watch on this issue, I came to understand it more completely, I believe.

I've come to terms with the fact that it is only a flag. It cannot physically hurt anyone. I say you should be allowed to fly it all day long. I can only speak for myself when I say that I could never do it - for it does represent slavery and bigotry as well as battles, protests and southern kind of patriotism - it represents a lot of things. I guess you can choose what you want it to represent in your mind. that won't change facts.

[florida girl]

The Confederate Flag is a lot more than just slavery, and the more I'm on this forum, the more I'm proud to have been born in the South! There's a considerable culture difference, with no "seeming" meeting of the minds. Each thinks the other is correct, and has the attitude "if you don't like it, move!" Just how many years has it been since the civil war, and has our culture become more "civilized"? We're so politically correct, no one has a backbone to stand up for their culture!

[Mango]

The Confederate Flag is a lot more than just slavery, and the more I'm on this forum, the more I'm proud to have been born in the South! There's a considerable culture difference, with no "seeming" meeting of the minds. Each thinks the other is correct, and has the attitude "if you don't like it, move!" Just how many years has it been since the civil war, and has our culture become more "civilized"? We're so politically correct, no one has a backbone to stand up for their culture!

Last time I looked it was the United States Flag that we proudly raise. It is the flag that all soldiers are draped in who die for our Country no matter what State they were born and raised in. It is the flag that was raised at the 9/11 site and brought tears to many to see, the image still imprinted on our memories.

[Tootsie]

The Confederate Flag is a lot more than just slavery, and the more I'm on this forum, the more I'm proud to have been born in the South! There's a considerable culture difference, with no "seeming" meeting of the minds. Each thinks the other is correct, and has the attitude "if you don't like it, move!" Just how many years has it been since the civil war, and has our culture become more "civilized"? We're so politically correct, no one has a backbone to stand up for their culture!



I still think its your choice to wave any flag that makes you feel all patriotic inside! it has nothing to do with political correctness. no one need move. it has everything to do with what is right for you.

whenever I see the old flag waving away as I travel back to my hometown in Alabama for a visit, it makes me think about a lot of things, and I feel sadness as well as happiness. despite everything, goodness does prevail. and sometimes I smile.

[Geo]

I have lived in this beautiful place for only a year. I was born and raised on the South Side of Chicago. There are many things that make me proud of where I come from, especially the people and their character. My family and just about everyone we knew were Catholic, very hardworking, fiercely loyal and what you would probably call or think of as "GOOD people"...

My family and just about everyone we knew were also very racist and homophobic. And I didn't realize it until I left for good at 18...

I don't remember when I changed. I don't know if it was gradual. I don't know which people, places or experiences changed me...

But what I do know is when I go back to the South Side I will, on occasion, run into friends who never left. After minutes of talking with them I am absolutely shocked in how they view the world. The most shocking part, however, is realizing that this used to be me. Seeing these folks is like going back in a time machine and meeting myself back then. So bizarre...

So where am I heading with this-

I believe it is possible to be proud of your heritage and where you are from without having to be proud of everything. Be proud of your Southern heritage. But man-

(and I know you will say you could care less)

If you folks only knew what you really looked like driving around with the rebel flag to those of us who aren't natives of the South...

I might regret sharing these sentiments but here goes-

SUBMIT...

[jdarg]

Wow.

When I saw the title of this thread originally, I thought it was a joke. Ha ha, it's not so funny.:(

[Tootsie]

I might regret sharing these sentiments but here goes-

SUBMIT...

all very well said geowickey. and I'm from birmingham but you've described my view and experience exactly.

please ya'll don't think all southerners go around with rebel flag underwear and bed sheets, much less on their cars and trucks... not at all.

I do like a good old civil war re-enactment now and then - they used to do it here at Eden State Park every so often complete with soldiers, canon blasts, the woman folk, bon fires, tents, etc. its a slice of history. but its funny to me to think that people like to go spend the weekend "re-enacting" the civil war. :wave::biggrin:

[Allifunn]

That is what I am saying. the Rebel flag and/or the Civil War was NOT all about slavery- just a small portion. After reading history books on the Civil War you will see that the war was about about money and control, it is funny how they teach you different in school.... :roll:
The power and control of which you speak was directly related to slavery, it is what generated the power and control. The south had some truly intelligent men that were noteworthy, but building and "empire" on slavery was wrong.
Here in South Carolina most people who fly the confederate flag are doing so JUST to be inflamatory, period!
I do not care what vanity tag anyone puts on their car..it is their own personal choice. I just really DON'T care...there are so many worse things in this world to concern myself with.

[scooterbug44]

Just as the swastika was appropriated and had its symbolism forever altered, so did the Confederate flag.

You can claim that displaying it shows pride in many aspects of your heritage, but to many it will always be a symbol of hate.

They already make Confederate flag plates for the front of your car, bumper stickers, decals etc. so if you want to display your heritage you don't need a vanity plate. Just be realistic about what putting that symbol on your vehicle represents to many people and says about you.

[wrobert]

Based on the press this thing is starting to get, I wonder if we are going to see CC or Greer come out and denounce it. Hmmm....maybe a chance to start a new thread, call it Pander Watch. Post examples of politicians pandering to specific electors.

[jdarg]

Based on the press this thing is starting to get, I wonder if we are going to see CC or Greer come out and denounce it. Hmmm....maybe a chance to start a new thread, call it Pander Watch. Post examples of politicians pandering to specific electors.

Why exactly would denouncing this be pandering to anybody? Please tell me you are kidding.

[InletBchDweller]

Just as the swastika was appropriated and had its symbolism forever altered, so did the Confederate flag.

You can claim that displaying it shows pride in many aspects of your heritage, but to many it will always be a symbol of hate.

They already make Confederate flag plates for the front of your car, bumper stickers, decals etc. so if you want to display your heritage you don't need a vanity plate. Just be realistic about what putting that symbol on your vehicle represents to many people and says about you.

I understand that some will always view the flag as symbols of hate, slavery, etc. So if I do choose to put the symbol on my car what does it make people think about me? "Oh hey there goes a redneck?" or "there goes a pro-slavery lover?" or "There goes a Southerner?" I guess it is all on how the viewer perceives it.
I guess this ole gal's has just been in the South her whole life and like it or not, I love that flag. I dont want slavery to come back, I dont have a gun rack in the car I drive and I love people from "up North". ;-)
I dont think I come off to people as an ignorant inbred hick. I guess I am just passionate about this subject - imagine if we all were passionate about the same thing - this board would be soooooooo boring...:floor:

[wrobert]

Why exactly would denouncing this be pandering to anybody? Please tell me you are kidding.


Either you are for the rights of others to say things, no matter how offensive, or you are against it. It would depend on what they said if they came out against this. I would hope that they would support the first amendment, but I imagine they will try to show how being against it somehow makes them more enlightened.

[jdarg]

Either you are for the rights of others to say things, no matter how offensive, or you are against it. It would depend on what they said if they came out against this. I would hope that they would support the first amendment, but I imagine they will try to show how being against it somehow makes them more enlightened.

I'm all for first amendment rights. However, why put something offensive to so many people on an object that represents our state? Why is this vanity plate necessary? On another thread I am trying to rally parents around the education of their children. On this thread, I am scratching my head wondering why this rebel flag issue would even merit a discussion. Good God.

Carry on. As someone mentioned earlier, sometimes posts speak for themselves. This thread just died for me.

[goodwitch58]

What I would like to see is our elected Representative Brown put some time and energy and publicity into an issue that is truly important to the people he is supposed to represent.

Like, maybe, health care, schools, roads, taxes, insurance, the list goes on...but he chooses to sponsor a bill about a vanity license plate!

Amazing...

[wrobert]

What I would like to see is our elected Representative Brown put some time and energy and publicity into an issue that is truly important to the people he is supposed to represent.

Like, maybe, health care, schools, roads, taxes, insurance, the list goes on...but he chooses to sponsor a bill about a vanity license plate!

Amazing...

Yep. What is it we have over a hundred at last count. He sponsored a bill for one of them, so I guess the other 99 people were just doing their job.

[TooFarTampa]

You cannot convince me that putting a symbol that has become so repulsive to so many people on a state license plate is a good idea, whether or not the constituency wants it, even if the message is meant to be something else.

That said, in the interest of fairness, more on this from the AP:

Rep. Donald Brown, R-DeFuniak Springs, filed the bill (HB 1007) last week. The plate would feature a shield displaying the rebel battle flag symbol surrounded by several flags from the Civil War era. He says it would give motorists a way to show pride in their heritage.

Brown says his bill has nothing to do with race. He pointed out that he filed another bill that would rename part of a highway in Walton County after black civil rights leader the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

I wonder which highway?

[elgordoboy]

I understand that some will always view the flag as symbols of hate, slavery, etc. So if I do choose to put the symbol on my car what does it make people think about me? "Oh hey there goes a redneck?" or "there goes a pro-slavery lover?" or "There goes a Southerner?" I guess it is all on how the viewer perceives it.
I guess this ole gal's has just been in the South her whole life and like it or not, I love that flag. I dont want slavery to come back, I dont have a gun rack in the car I drive and I love people from "up North". ;-)
I dont think I come off to people as an ignorant inbred hick. I guess I am just passionate about this subject - imagine if we all were passionate about the same thing - this board would be soooooooo boring...:floor:
Makes me think "Wow there goes a true daughter of the Confederacy..uh oh I am out of 'chaw, I hope I can catch up with her at the next light. Hold up there baby!":wave:
Either you are for the rights of others to say things, no matter how offensive, or you are against it. It would depend on what they said if they came out against this. I would hope that they would support the first amendment, but I imagine they will try to show how being against it somehow makes them more enlightened.
As someone stated in a previous post there are all sorts of inflammatory decals and front plates one can purchase and display to express themselves. There is no excuse for a state to pander, support, and sponsor such.

[InletBchDweller]

Makes me think "Wow there goes a true daughter of the Confederacy..uh oh I am out of 'chaw, I hope I can catch up with her at the next light. Hold up there baby!":wave:



:floor:'chaw - as in Red Man??

[elgordoboy]

:floor:'chaw - as in Red Man??
As in Red Man :biggrin:

[Busta Hustle]

ever notice how many neighborhood names around here have the word "Plantation"?

[Tootsie]

I love how so many people in this area have moved from other places in the south, bringing different backgrounds and experiences, mostly youngish and educated. it makes for a different kind of dynamic community and I've watched this unique population develop over the last dozen years. I don't think we've ever even had a serious "flag" discussion among friends here unless joking / and even if we see one we don't notice it because it just isn't an issue here (at last not in our friendship experiences) . It just doesn't come up. It is not in our current culture or in our minds or on our tongues. this thread has made me realize this. what if we lived in other places, such as allifunn's area in SC, where the rebel flag is waved by every other person just to piss you off? Maybe you would get used to it, or make the sign of the cross everytime you pass one, or some other symbolic gesture. but some of us are so fortunate to not have this issue in our community.

if vanity plates are made available, the most sold would certainly be in north florida. but something makes me think we wouldn't see many here. it is an unreal kind of place. not perfect. not real world. but uniquely southern in a very good way.

thank God for Sowal.:wave:

[scooterbug44]

if vanity plates are made available, the most sold would certainly be in north florida. but something makes me think we wouldn't see many here. it is an unreal kind of place. not perfect. not real world. but uniquely southern in a very good way.


I disagree - the only reason I know you can get a confederate flag plate for the car front is from seeing it in my rearview mirror on 98! :roll:

And my first thought when I saw it was NOT "how wonderful that they are celebrating their regional heritage," but "WTF is a confederate flag doing on a vw beetle?!?"

[Tootsie]

I disagree - the only reason I know you can get a confederate flag plate for the car front is from seeing it in my rearview mirror on 98! :roll:

lots of bama and georgia folks visit here all the time! the only time we were inundated with "W" stickers in sowal was during spring breaks for certain states.

surely some folks will have flag accessories around here. but I know of almost no one personaly who would dream of it..

scooter - you should know what I'm talking about. we have a growing group of people in SoWal who have never even given the flag a second thought in their entire lives. at least, these are the people I know and have known for a very long time. and they aren't about to start now.

[scooterbug44]

Local FL plate - I checked! :(

[Tootsie]

Local FL plate - I checked! :(

someone you know? visiting from NoWal? heck, it could even be a SoWal resident. I'm just saying - this is not that kind of community overall. when I leave this place and visit Birmingham, my hometown, my senses are overwhelmed with southernness from all around because I'm just not used to it anymore. haven't been for 25 years. when I see that flag flying high above the interstate, I notice it. it stands out. I'm not used to it at all.

[scooterbug44]

someone you know? not me!

Noone I know/recognized, but still a local car w/ a confederate flag on it.

[Tootsie]

Noone I know/recognized, but still a local car w/ a confederate flag on it.

this county goes all the up to the bama line ya know.:wave:

I didn't say we don't have our good old boys and girls here. I'm just saying I don't think you'll see as many vanity plates in SoWal as you will in PCB and other areas in NW Fla.


I wonder if yankees adopt the confederate flag for their purposes ever?
http://www.sowal.com/bb/gallery/files/1/7/0/WEBdamnyankee.gif

[Uncle Timmy]

I think Uncle Timmy needs a "Share the Road- Bike Florida" plate.:lol:

Done...........

http://www.sowal.com/bb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5170&stc=1&d=1179842473

[Tootsie]

Done...........

http://www.sowal.com/bb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5170&stc=1&d=1179842473

where the hail did that crap come from?

you better get your butt on here and do better on this issue right now!:lolabove: you should be ashamed Uncle Timothy!

[goodwitch58]

Yep. What is it we have over a hundred at last count. He sponsored a bill for one of them, so I guess the other 99 people were just doing their job.

What?:idontno:

[Uncle Timmy]

where the hail did that crap come from?

you better get your butt on here and do better on this issue right now!:lolabove: you should be ashamed Uncle Timothy!

just respondin' to jdarg's sassin'

I don't have time to read all 3 pages. But I do know that if I'm running down a cyclist; they won't care what flag is on my license plate.:cool:

[JustaLocal]

it is an unreal kind of place. not perfect. not real world. but uniquely southern in a very good way.

thank God for Sowal.:wave:

Is there any other way??

[Tootsie]

Is there any other way??

ummmmmmm.... yes, in my experience living in 5 different southern towns. Each very different kinds of southern culture. SoWal = perfectly suited for me.

birmingham = way too southern, MLK not a popular figure among whites who believe the media is responsible for any negative images associated with the south. rebel flags abound. food is wonderful. I would weigh 300 pounds if I still lived there. many people do.

tuscaloosa = pretty darn southern and funn too. good mix of friends, plus a group of good old boy / funn redneck friends who hated MLK holiday and would rather work. fewer rebel flags but still standard.

gainesville = not enough southern (almost no southern). great great great educational life experience in many ways.

pensacola = very good southern, very strange development planning with pockets of heavy industry, minorities scattered throughout, with naval influence. great people, but quite bible belt boring.

SoWal = just right southern.

I think there are many places in NE and NW Florida I would truly love but not south florida - that is the least southern of all.

[Bdarg]

Either you are for the rights of others to say things, no matter how offensive, or you are against it. It would depend on what they said if they came out against this. I would hope that they would support the first amendment, but I imagine they will try to show how being against it somehow makes them more enlightened.

(WaltonGOP, not to pick on you, but after reading all these posts, you set up the launching point of my sentiments on this issue the best)

I am all about civil rights, however using civil rights to thinly veil racial hatred is not actually a civil right; it is a hate crime. For the state to underwrite a hate crime is unspeakable. The use of the confederate flag in this case and many others is not as a symbol of southern pride and heritage, but instead is being used a symbol of racism and hate. Let’s get real, the only reason that the confederate flag is being offered on the vanity plate is because the framers of this proposal knew that a noose and a tree would be turned down flat.



To frame it in a different light, what would you think if modern Germany decided as a symbol of national pride and to honor its heritage decided as a government to use the Nazi flag for license plates, flags, official stationary etc? My guess is that many “southerners” would not be happy about that.



As a southerner myself, as well as being part American Indian (Cherokee) and above all as an American, I find that I look at battling such symbols of racism and hatred as not only a personal obligation to condemn such repugnant actions and symbols, but a duty to my country, a duty to our forefathers (Abraham Lincoln especially—as republicans like to claim him as their own), and our national heritage, as well as to keep America in high moral standing. I was raised that America did what was right, period, and that it was my obligation as an American to do what was right; period. To claim that a flag that was created by the confederacy, for the confederacy, as a symbol of slavery and everything confederate as being anything other than a symbol of slavery, is a dishonor to our forefathers and our heritage. It is a symbol of a period in our national history when we did what was profitable rather than what was right. Let’s not let that happen again!

[JustaLocal]

ummmmmmm.... yes, in my experience living in 5 different southern towns. Each very different kinds of southern culture. SoWal = perfectly suited for me.

birmingham = way too southern, MLK not a popular figure among whites who believe the media is responsible for any negative images associated with the south. rebel flags abound. food is wonderful. I would weigh 300 pounds if I still lived there. many people do.

tuscaloosa = pretty darn southern and funn too. good mix of friends, plus a group of good old boy / funn redneck friends who hated MLK holiday and would rather work. fewer rebel flags but still standard.

gainesville = not enough southern (almost no southern). great great great educational life experience in many ways.

pensacola = very good southern, very strange development planning with pockets of heavy industry, minorities scattered throughout, with naval influence. great people, but quite bible belt boring.

SoWal = just right southern.

I think there are many places in NE and NW Florida I would truly love but not south florida - that is the least southern of all.

I do not believe there is such a thing as "way too southern."

[Tootsie]

I do not believe there is such a thing as "way too southern."

wail, there sure as hail is for me!:wave:

[elgordoboy]

I do not believe there is such a thing as "way too southern."
And you are entitled to your opinion just as Tootsie is hers.

[aleonard]

I do not believe there is such a thing as "way too southern."

I once took a wrong turn going to the mountains. Ended up in a place called Boogerville. I kid you not. Please insert banjo music here. Too southern for me and I was born in south Alabama. : O

[Tootsie]

To claim that a flag that was created by the confederacy, for the confederacy, as a symbol of slavery and everything confederate as being anything other than a symbol of slavery, is a dishonor to our forefathers and our heritage. It is a symbol of a period in our national history when we did what was profitable rather than what was right. Let’s not let that happen again!

:wave:oh, man, this is the best point bdarg! thanks for chiming in.



aleo - you are a riot. boogerville? I can imagine that it was off the charts southern.

[JustaLocal]

wail, there sure as hail is for me!:wave:

I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear that.

And you are entitled to your opinion just as Tootsie is hers.

Indeed. :cool:

[rapunzel]

I think there are many places in NE and NW Florida I would truly love but not south florida - that is the least southern of all.

I once went to a college formal in Thomasville, Georgia, and the wonderful Ferrol Sams spoke. He said, "Well, Thomaston is about as far South as you can get. If you go much further south, you start going north." :clap:

There are fantastic things about the south. If you want to celebrate your southern heritage --


Subscribe to the Oxford American http://www.oxfordamericanmag.com/index.cfm
Visit the Ogden Museum of Southern Art http://www.ogdenmuseum.org/
Join the Southern Foodways Alliance http://www.southernfoodways.com/


I love the South. I'm proud to be a Southerner.

The South and its history and heritage are so much more than the Civil War. The story of the south is broader and deeper and the soul of the South was not tied only to the slave owning plantation gentry, but the story of the slave and the immigrant and the mill worker and the yeoman farmer and the sharecropper, too. We forget the good ole boys were the ones used as canon fodder in a war about guarding the means of production for the officers who stayed far behind the lines. The food is the food of poor people who learned to turn greens and discarded bits of pork into a splendid feast. The art celebrates the sense of place, the beauty of a place that isn't always so beautiful.

There are things about being a Southerner that I'm not terribly proud of. My grandfather grew up in Newton, Mississippi -- about 3 miles from Philadelphia -- and I had second cousins who were involved in the Mississippi Civil Rights workers' murder. They were the kind people that resurrected the battle flag of the CSA as a symbol of rebellion against federal enforcement of desegregation rulings and the Civil Rights Act of 1964. That's the heritage I think of when I see that flag.
http://www.ogdenmuseum.org/image//001/0838.jpg

A true man of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others. -- Robert E. Lee

[kurt]

just respondin' to jdarg's sassin'

I don't have time to read all 3 pages. But I do know that if I'm running down a cyclist; they won't care what flag is on my license plate.:cool:

It depends on the skin color beneath the spandex.

The Bama version:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1632/bearlb0.jpg

[rapunzel]

Kurt! The Bama Trinity!!! :funn::floor::funn::funn:

[30A Skunkape]

The Confederate battle flag (the one everyone can identify, anyway) is a historically important relic. It meant something to a generation of Americans that couldn't be boiled down to simple racism, redneckism or bad taste. If you doubt this please see the image below. For better or worse it became a symbol through which segregationists could razz those fighting for integration and civil rights. Now it is generally displayed by southern adolescents who don't know any better, a few honest to goodness heritage groups and a few honest to goodness hate groups. I doubt the Sons of the Confederacy (or whatever this group is) are racists by default just because their organization's crest (which probably dates back to Reconstruction or at least the early 20th century) incorporates the familiar battle flag. I don't know if you know any civil war freaks, but they do exist and some are as whacked as Trekkies in their mid 19th century facial hair growth and dress, and probably do not and will not understand why the battle flag is offensive. On the other hand, I can understand why the license plate is offensive to some, and it would probably be prudent to issue a compromise plate featuring a cannon or something. I hate the 'rebel flag' debate...it is as likely to be settled as is the abortion debate.

[Tootsie]

Kurt! The Bama Trinity!!! :funn::floor::funn::funn:

absolutely!

my dad's trinity / practically has an alter / museum in his house honoring 3 dudes: bear bryant, elvis presley, and george jones.

you have some great points punzy. we could do an entire book on the history, culture, food, art, people, customs, music and beauty of the south.

[TooFarTampa]

The Confederate battle flag (the one everyone can identify, anyway) is a historically important relic. It meant something to a generation of Americans that couldn't be boiled down to simple racism, redneckism or bad taste. If you doubt this please see the image below. For better or worse it became a symbol through which segregationists could razz those fighting for integration and civil rights. Now it is generally displayed by southern adolescents who don't know any better, a few honest to goodness heritage groups and a few honest to goodness hate groups. I doubt the Sons of the Confederacy (or whatever this group is) are racists by default just because their organization's crest (which probably dates back to Reconstruction or at least the early 20th century) incorporates the familiar battle flag. I don't know if you know any civil war freaks, but they do exist and some are as whacked as Trekkies in their mid 19th century facial hair growth and dress, and probably do not and will not understand why the battle flag is offensive. On the other hand, I can understand why the license plate is offensive to some, and it would probably be prudent to issue a compromise plate featuring a cannon or something. I hate the 'rebel flag' debate...it is as likely to be settled as is the abortion debate.

How about just a big old glass of sweet tea? :cool:

[Geo]

The Confederate battle flag (the one everyone can identify, anyway) is a historically important relic. It meant something to a generation of Americans that couldn't be boiled down to simple racism, redneckism or bad taste.

IMHO, It can be and often is boiled down to a simple matter of racism, redneckism and bad taste. I thought that the Nazi Germany analogy would work perfectly in driving home this obvious point but I guess I was wrong. So here's an analogy that I made up that is not as good but it exaggerates the point for effect-

Let's say that two hundred years ago the way children expressed respect and admiration to adults was by extending their middle finger. Over the next century the meaning of this gesture evolved to mean, "I love you" and was used by married couples. Then unexpectedly, pirates adopted this symbol to mean, "Rape and Pilage" and it was the last sight of many innocent people before suffering a brutal death. Somewhere in the early 1900's, the extension of the middle finger became widely accepted as a vulgar insult having to do with (F) Unlawful Carnal Knowledge...

Now let's say (yes, it is getting more ridiculous) that I want to hold onto and celebrate the historical meanings (with genuine or feigned intentions). So I guess I'll just show some respect and some love to everyone around me by giving them the finger. What? It can't be boiled down to a simple matter of vulgarity, can it? You're forgetting that this means so much more and history proves that... (end sarcasm)


For better or worse it became a symbol through which segregationists could razz those fighting for integration and civil rights. Now it is generally displayed by southern adolescents who don't know any better, a few honest to goodness heritage groups and a few honest to goodness hate groups.

Very nicely said. :clap:

I doubt the Sons of the Confederacy (or whatever this group is) are racists by default just because their organization's crest (which probably dates back to Reconstruction or at least the early 20th century) incorporates the familiar battle flag.

Agreed. But that is not at all the point. The flag evokes imagery of racism, redneckism and bad taste IRRESPECTIVE of your intentions for flying it...

Two cents and then some...

G

[Beach Runner]

Okay, so how many of you bought Rebel flag beach towels in PCB when you were teenagers? :wave: :blush:

[Geo]

Okay, so how many of you bought Rebel flag beach towels in PCB when you were teenagers? :wave: :blush:

Can you say-
Dukes of Hazzard???

[InletBchDweller]

Wow, this thread really has me stirred up. Skunky did bring a great point. It is a sensitive subject that like abortion is a dead end street.

The Confederate flag stands for those who died in the belief that they were going to make America better. There were blacks and whites who died for this cause, blacks even fighting for the South. I dont feel that the Confederate battle flag should be discriminated against because of the behavior of KKK or extremist groups. We should not blame the flag for its misuse, because the flag is not the enemy.



Think: A rainbow....wow how many meanings that this symbol has....

to a child - it is a beautiful magical thing, look for a pot of gold, St. Patricks Day,
to a homosexual - it has been used to identify their group in the form of flags, stickers, etc
to a Christian - it is a symbol that God's promise that He will never flood the Earth again So, would it be wrong if somebody wanted to BAN rainbows because they hated homosexuals or Christians?? :idontno:

I guess we can argue back and forth giving examples. Just because I like the flag does not mean I am driving around with a noose in my car...:roll:

[30A Skunkape]

IBD, are you one of those people that wants to remove Robert E. Lee's statue from Lee Circle?:wave:

[aleonard]

Can you say-
Dukes of Hazzard???


Good point. I have two small emblems on either side of my truck cab. The background is black with a rebel flag overlay. They don't stand out but you can see them when you get right up to it.About the size of a credit card.The truck was customized by Dixie Outfitters from Ft. Payne Alabama. This is their logo and was placed there by them. It was shipped to Pensacola, where I purchased it. I purchased it because it fit my needs in a truck and it was purple(custom paint). Other than this,I have never worn or bought something to explain my southern pride by use of a rebel flag. I have Alabama football t-shirts and a terribly heavy southern accent to do that.:wave:

I am offended by some tags I see and won't go into that, except to say, I believe in freedom of expression. It's up to me to be a big girl and let others proclaim their beliefs as they see fit, as long as I can speak about mine in the medium I choose.
Peace out:cool:

[Geo]

I am offended by some tags I see and won't go into that, except to say, I believe in freedom of expression. It up to me to be a big girl and let others proclaim their beliefs as they see fit, as long as I can speak about mine in the medium I choose.
Peace out:cool:

Agreed and well stated. That really trumps anything else in this debate and allows for everyone to win. We are fortunate to live in a country that allows for such freedoms.

Cheers to all. No hard feelers here...

[InletBchDweller]

IBD, are you one of those people that wants to remove Robert E. Lee's statue from Lee Circle?:wave:

what????:idontno:

[Beach Runner]

Can you say-
Dukes of Hazzard???
My friends and I were just echoing the feelings of our parents after we all were forced to move from our neighborhood due to the harrassment during the "Peyton Road affair" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascade_Heights). To this day I think that the stress of all of that was a factor in my father's early death from a heart attack. Daddy didn't want to leave the home where we had so many memories of my brother who at five years old was run over by a drunk driver. But my parents just got tired of all of the harassment.

[Allifunn]

I am offended by some tags I see and won't go into that, except to say, I believe in freedom of expression. It's up to me to be a big girl and let others proclaim their beliefs as they see fit, as long as I can speak about mine in the medium I choose.

Agreed and well stated. That really trumps anything else in this debate and allows for everyone to win. We are fortunate to live in a country that allows for such freedoms.

Cheers to all. No hard feelers here...
:clap::clap::clap:to each his/her own! to which NO ONE can argue

[Tootsie]

Wow, this thread really has me stirred up. Skunky did bring a great point. It is a sensitive subject that like abortion is a dead end street.

The Confederate flag stands for those who died in the belief that they were going to make America better. There were blacks and whites who died for this cause, blacks even fighting for the South. I dont feel that the Confederate battle flag should be discriminated against because of the behavior of KKK or extremist groups. We should not blame the flag for its misuse, because the flag is not the enemy.



Think: A rainbow....wow how many meanings that this symbol has....

to a child - it is a beautiful magical thing, look for a pot of gold, St. Patricks Day,
to a homosexual - it has been used to identify their group in the form of flags, stickers, etc
to a Christian - it is a symbol that God's promise that He will never flood the Earth againSo, would it be wrong if somebody wanted to BAN rainbows because they hated homosexuals or Christians?? :idontno:

I guess we can argue back and forth giving examples. Just because I like the flag does not mean I am driving around with a noose in my car...:roll:

a rainbow is nature. it is not a symbol of anything but beauty, unless a certain group, whether religious or other, uses it as a "logo". a confederate flag is made by men to stand for something. this is like saying that nature is comparable to a symbol of racism.

no one said you should not like it ibd.

my little 'un is currently reading about rosa parks in school and doing art projects, etc (including a hilarious rosa parks face on a stick, with holes in the eyes - he held it up to his face and I told him he made a beautiful rosa parks!). - coming home with interesting tidbits about how rosa was so brave and went to jail and now people are treated better. I wonder how Ms Rosa would feel about that flag? that's a discussion for my child when he's older and can grasp the complexity of symbolism via a flag.

if you wanna fly it, please do so with pride, and may there be no prejudice against you for doing so!:wave:

[Miss Kitty]

Okay, so how many of you bought Rebel flag beach towels in PCB when you were teenagers? :wave: :blush:

Honeybun, I went To Robert E. Lee High School! We were the Generals and our mascot was Uncle Bob...life size "replica" of Robert E. on wheels! :biggrin: Everytime we scored, the boys ran across the field with a big ol' rebel flag. Mind you, that was a looong time ago and the flag has been retired. Good good times.

[aleonard]

Honeybun, I went To Robert E. Lee High School! We were the Generals and our mascot was Uncle Bob...life size "replica" of Robert E. on wheels! :biggrin: Everytime we scored, the boys ran across the field with a big ol' rebel flag. Mind you, that was a looong time ago and the flag has been retired. Good good times.


I would honk for a Miss Kitty tag:cool:

[Miss Kitty]

I would honk for a Miss Kitty tag:cool:

:lolabove:...I am surprised Florida doesn't have one!

[aleonard]

:lolabove:...I am surprised Florida doesn't have one!

Seems like we have one more project then for the new year:roll:

[Tootsie]

Honeybun, I went To Robert E. Lee High School! We were the Generals and our mascot was Uncle Bob...life size "replica" of Robert E. on wheels! :biggrin: Everytime we scored, the boys ran across the field with a big ol' rebel flag. Mind you, that was a looong time ago and the flag has been retired. Good good times.
:clap::lol:it was all in funn wasn't it? any minorities attending?

[Tootsie]

:lolabove:...I am surprised Florida doesn't have one!

why? look, when you get down past Lake City, you are no longer in the south.

[Beach Runner]

Honeybun, I went To Robert E. Lee High School! We were the Generals and our mascot was Uncle Bob...life size "replica" of Robert E. on wheels! :biggrin: Everytime we scored, the boys ran across the field with a big ol' rebel flag. Mind you, that was a looong time ago and the flag has been retired. Good good times.
Honey, it wouldn't surprise me if you had a Rebel flag tag on the front of your high school car. But as a student at Robert E. Lee, that would have just been school spirit, right?

[30A Skunkape]

:clap::lol:it was all in funn wasn't it? any minorities attending?

:floor:

[Tootsie]

:floor:

I know, that was just after the war, what was I thinking?

[Miss Kitty]

:clap::lol:it was all in funn wasn't it? any minorities attending?

:floor: Toots, we were dead serious. Football in Texas on a Friday night!

Honey, it wouldn't surprise me if you had a Rebel flag tag on the front of your high school car. But as a student at Robert E. Lee, that would have just been school spirit, right?

I went to HS before they invented decals. :wave:

[elgordoboy]

Wow, this thread really has me stirred up. Skunky did bring a great point. It is a sensitive subject that like abortion is a dead end street.

The Confederate flag stands for those who died in the belief that they were going to make America better. There were blacks and whites who died for this cause, blacks even fighting for the South. I dont feel that the Confederate battle flag should be discriminated against because of the behavior of KKK or extremist groups. We should not blame the flag for its misuse, because the flag is not the enemy.



Think: A rainbow....wow how many meanings that this symbol has....

to a child - it is a beautiful magical thing, look for a pot of gold, St. Patricks Day,
to a homosexual - it has been used to identify their group in the form of flags, stickers, etc
to a Christian - it is a symbol that God's promise that He will never flood the Earth againSo, would it be wrong if somebody wanted to BAN rainbows because they hated homosexuals or Christians?? :idontno:

I guess we can argue back and forth giving examples. Just because I like the flag does not mean I am driving around with a noose in my car...:roll:
Ban rainbows if they had become symbols of hatred to homosexuals yes. If rainbow colors were proudly displayed as a gay male/female was dragged behind a pickup truck yes. What about an upside down cross on a license plate?

[InletBchDweller]

a rainbow is nature. it is not a symbol of anything but beauty, unless a certain group, whether religious or other, uses it as a "logo". a confederate flag is made by men to stand for something. this is like saying that nature is comparable to a symbol of racism.

if you wanna fly it, please do so with pride, and may there be no prejudice against you for doing so!:wave: Yes, the flag was made by man to stand for something but that something is in the eye of the beholder. I just may go ahead and get myself a flag tag but from what I have digested from comments on this thread today then prejudice would take place or perhaps a keyed car. :confused: I know not from you Toots:wub: but from others....(not saying anyone on this board):wave:
I would honk for a Miss Kitty tag:cool: I want one!!!:clap:

[Allifunn]

:scratch:A Miss Kitty Tag.......I like it! :clap:

[InletBchDweller]

What about an upside down cross on a license plate?

Wouldnt that be a first amendment right??? HMMm, what would the proceeds go to???? That could be tricky.....:lol: (we could have funn with this one....)

[Bdarg]

The right to free speech allows you to say whatever you want no matter how repugnant on a bumper sticker, however the first amendment does not allow for the government to sanction such speech by displaying it on an official government issue license plate.

[elgordoboy]

Yes, the flag was made by man to stand for something but that something is in the eye of the beholder. I just may go ahead and get myself a flag tag but from what I have digested from comments on this thread today then prejudice would take place or perhaps a keyed car. :confused: I know not from you Toots:wub: but from others....(not saying anyone on this board):wave:
I want one!!!:clap:
I'm not gonna key your whip :D. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" Aristotle.

[Geo]

The write to free speech allows you to say whatever you want no matter how repugnant on a bumper sticker, however the first amendment does not allow for the government to sanction such speech by displaying it on an official government issue license plate.

Finally...
:cool:

[Bdarg]

Finally...
:cool:

Now I just have to work out my rights and my writes before I hit submit.:biggrin:

[wrobert]

The right to free speech allows you to say whatever you want no matter how repugnant on a bumper sticker, however the first amendment does not allow for the government to sanction such speech by displaying it on an official government issue license plate.


Are you saying you believe that the government sanctions every cause in which a license plate has been approved?

[Bdarg]

Are you saying you believe that the government sanctions every cause in which a license plate has been approved?

The license plate is a government issued document is it not?

[wrobert]

The license plate is a government issued document is it not?

So are we going answer every question with a question?

[TooFarTampa]

why? look, when you get down past Lake City, you are no longer in the south.

Ocala :roll: There are some Southerners in Gainesville, and lots of horsey people in Ocala.

I know, that was just after the war, what was I thinking?

:rolling:

Are you saying you believe that the government sanctions every cause in which a license plate has been approved?

See my quote from Jeb Bush (okay, a spokeswoman), circa 2001, on page 1 of this thread: "the governor believes that most Floridians would agree that the symbols of Florida's past should not be displayed in a manner that may divide Floridians today." Jeb recognized that this was a slippery slope.

[elgordoboy]

Are you saying you believe that the government sanctions every cause in which a license plate has been approved?
I'll play. The part of the government that sanctions license plates approves of the cause. Got something up your sleeve?
So are we going answer every question with a question?
Maybe it'll just be this one and not every one. How about answering it.

[wrobert]

See my quote from Jeb Bush (okay, a spokeswoman), circa 2001, on page 1 of this thread: "the governor believes that most Floridians would agree that the symbols of Florida's past should not be displayed in a manner that may divide Floridians today." Jeb recognized that this was a slippery slope.

I saw the quote. But I asked a question that I feel is either being ignored or looked over for some reason.

[wrobert]

I'll play. The part of the government that sanctions license plates approves of the cause. Got something up your sleeve?

Maybe it'll just be this one and not every one. How about answering it.

There are currently 108 license plates in Florida. I have not reviewed the list. Am I to believe that each of this non-profit organizations is a government sanctioned entity?

[elgordoboy]

There are currently 108 license plates in Florida. I have not reviewed the list. Am I to believe that each of this non-profit organizations is a government sanctioned entity?
Sanctioned by some portion of the government as evidenced by their existence.
*edit* K-mart doesn't sell the license plates I got mine at the county government office. If and when I can go buy a joint at the same time I will assume the government is sanctioning my drug use. *p.s edit* I do not use drugs.

[wrobert]

Sanctioned by some portion of the government as evidenced by their existence.


Well I guess that would be the legislative and executive branches then.

[TooFarTampa]

Here's something I found while nosing around. In 2001 a Floridian in Gainesville who had been driving around with a plate that said ATHEIST for 16 years had it taken away after complaints were filed by citizens with the state. Here is a very interesting quote from the DMV spokesman at the time, Robert Sanchez:

"There is a venue for people's free speech on automobiles and that's a few inches below the license plate," he said. "That's a bumper sticker."

Ergo, this is not a First Amendment issue. It IS subjective, and probably very political.

Edit to say: HA!!! I did more Googling and found out the state reversed its decision and let him keep the tag in 2002! I wonder if there is a PDF somewhere with standards for creating a new vanity plate. I wonder just what the state is on the record as saying. :scratch:

[TooFarTampa]

Okay, I may have been right that it is not a First Amendment issue, that it is political and highly subjective.

I found a Slate article from 2003 that delved into this issue, inspired by the controversy surrounding states' "Choose Life" plates. Here is one relevant passage:

Whether or not the tags are "controversial" or even "political" or "opposable" is irrelevant for First Amendment purposes, when the legislature is breezily permitting some to be created and others to be denied. The relevant question is whether state legislatures are taking it upon themselves to decide what "political" or "controversial" mean in the first place, and what standards they use to do so, because in doing so, they are by definition discriminating based on viewpoint. While different states have different mechanisms for approving the programs, most involve some advocacy group proving to the legislature that there is sufficient demand for the plates to generate income. That means that if an organization can get enough signatures pledging to buy the plates, the legislature will consider it. Which in turn means that only popular viewpoints can pass the initial threshold. And if Maynard taught us anything, it was that "the First Amendment protects the right of individuals to hold a point of view different from the majority." Permission to speak shouldn't be doled out by the state based on the popularity of the idea.

But that isn't the end of the unbridled discretion. Because once a bill is in the hands of the legislature, it seems to be a sort of political free-for-all as to whether they wish to approve or disapprove of any group's message. Arkansas refused to give the Knights of Columbus a specialty plate, for fear that the KKK would want one, too. The California legislature went berserk over whether the Boy Scouts should get plates, because some felt the group was discriminatory. So, state discretion doesn't stop with the promotion of only popular ideas. It becomes even more blatant as lawmakers decide whether they approve of the ideas, and apparently, they make these decisions without standards or rules either.

The entire opinion piece/analysis can be found at the link below. I found it fascinating.

http://www.slate.com/id/2078247/

[aleonard]

Okay, I may have been right that it is not a First Amendment issue, that it is political and highly subjective.

I found a Slate article from 2003 that delved into this issue, inspired by the controversy surrounding states' "Choose Life" plates. Here is one relevant passage:

Whether or not the tags are "controversial" or even "political" or "opposable" is irrelevant for First Amendment purposes, when the legislature is breezily permitting some to be created and others to be denied. The relevant question is whether state legislatures are taking it upon themselves to decide what "political" or "controversial" mean in the first place, and what standards they use to do so, because in doing so, they are by definition discriminating based on viewpoint. While different states have different mechanisms for approving the programs, most involve some advocacy group proving to the legislature that there is sufficient demand for the plates to generate income. That means that if an organization can get enough signatures pledging to buy the plates, the legislature will consider it. Which in turn means that only popular viewpoints can pass the initial threshold. And if Maynard taught us anything, it was that "the First Amendment protects the right of individuals to hold a point of view different from the majority." Permission to speak shouldn't be doled out by the state based on the popularity of the idea.

But that isn't the end of the unbridled discretion. Because once a bill is in the hands of the legislature, it seems to be a sort of political free-for-all as to whether they wish to approve or disapprove of any group's message. Arkansas refused to give the Knights of Columbus a specialty plate, for fear that the KKK would want one, too. The California legislature went berserk over whether the Boy Scouts should get plates, because some felt the group was discriminatory. So, state discretion doesn't stop with the promotion of only popular ideas. It becomes even more blatant as lawmakers decide whether they approve of the ideas, and apparently, they make these decisions without standards or rules either.

The entire opinion piece/analysis can be found at the link below. I found it fascinating.

http://www.slate.com/id/2078247/

After this I think the tags are just a bad idea:confused: I'm going tomorrow to the DMV to see if Cat Butt is taken.;-)

[TooFarTampa]

After this I think the tags are just a bad idea:confused: I'm going tomorrow to the DMV to see if Cat Butt is taken.;-)

:floor:

[Bdarg]

So are we going answer every question with a question?

:idontno: Was that was not an answer?

[Tootsie]

There are currently 108 license plates in Florida. I have not reviewed the list. Am I to believe that each of this non-profit organizations is a government sanctioned entity?

wow, that many huh? interesting how the State has sold its soul. I think they need to take the time to reflect on their actions.:biggrin:

[kurt]

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3285/licenseplateoc0.jpg

[aleonard]

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3285/licenseplateoc0.jpg
I've been waiting for this one:biggrin::clap: Can you do one with the Miss Kitty tar in the middle????????

[elgordoboy]

I've been waiting for this one:biggrin::clap: Can you do one with the Miss Kitty tar in the middle????????
Miss Kitty in the middle? Of the swing like you didn't care?

[Killer Whale]

I am not a Southerner but I love the South and I find this whole debate sad more than anything.

It is as if the Confederacy not only lost the Civil War, which of course it catastrophically did, condemning subsequent generations to dreadful economic hardship and a bitterness which persists even to this day, as we see here. But it also lost the ideological conflict too. History may famously be written by the victors, but do the vanquished have to read their propaganda and agree with it also?

The Confederate Battle Flag is not just a symbol of slavery, surely? It was/is the symbol of an incipient Southern nationhood which was brutally crushed by force of arms.

THE most potent symbol of Southern culture and identity. The pictorial representation of a secession of equal legitimacy (or illegitimacy) as the American Revolution itself.

Both were armed rebellions asserting a right to independence from the then legally constituted Government. (And both had slavery as an integral part).

Successful secessionists are patriots and heroes. Unsuccessful ones are traitorous rebels and slave holding racists. George Washington ended up on the banknotes with the Capital City named in his honour. Jefferson Davis in chains in the dungeon of Fortress Monroe.

The battle flag is a symbol which includes a legacy of slavery, and also the bigotry of many racists who have subsequently flown it. You can't gainsay that unfortunate reality.

But it encompasses so much more than that. A whole nation and culture. The sacrifice of a generation of young men lost in a pointless war which decimated the Confederacy in a way unparalleled in the much more populous North. Above all it exemplifies that famous, estimable Southern pride which was the only thing the Yankees could not take away by force.

Everyone has a right to it not just the redneck bigots. All of you guys should be able to remember the fate of those ancestors of yours who fought and died under that flag. You SHOULD proudly display it on your car if you feel so inclined.

Sadly, as this debate shows, you just can't.

That is the tragedy of the South even today.

[InletBchDweller]

There are currently 108 license plates in Florida. I have not reviewed the list. Am I to believe that each of this non-profit organizations is a government sanctioned entity?

Virginia has over 200 (http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/plates.asp) !!

[seaside2]

This thread reinforces my belief that we can tolerate anything except tolerance.

[hnooe]

Virginia has over 200 (http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/plates.asp) !!

Because of this thread, I don't think variety is the spice of life anymore...:(

[TooFarTampa]

This thread reinforces my belief that we can tolerate anything except tolerance.

Because of this thread, I don't think variety is the spice of life anymore...:(

Really? I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I have found this discussion to be absolutely fascinating. How will we learn from each other if we can't discuss our backgrounds and perspectives?

Not that it matters, but while I don't consider myself a Southerner (born south of Ocala :biggrin:) I am a descendant of Stonewall Jackson. Since I was not raised on Southern pride I don't 'get it' -- the very act of saying raised not reared disqualifies me from being a Southerner -- but I love Southern writing and Southern people and sweet tea. Just don't care much for the flag that made its debut my ancestor's funeral, because of the way it has been used over time.

[Rita]

Okay, I may have been right that it is not a First Amendment issue, that it is political and highly subjective.

I found a Slate article from 2003 that delved into this issue, inspired by the controversy surrounding states' "Choose Life" plates. Here is one relevant passage:

Whether or not the tags are "controversial" or even "political" or "opposable" is irrelevant for First Amendment purposes, when the legislature is breezily permitting some to be created and others to be denied. The relevant question is whether state legislatures are taking it upon themselves to decide what "political" or "controversial" mean in the first place, and what standards they use to do so, because in doing so, they are by definition discriminating based on viewpoint. While different states have different mechanisms for approving the programs, most involve some advocacy group proving to the legislature that there is sufficient demand for the plates to generate income. That means that if an organization can get enough signatures pledging to buy the plates, the legislature will consider it. Which in turn means that only popular viewpoints can pass the initial threshold. And if Maynard taught us anything, it was that "the First Amendment protects the right of individuals to hold a point of view different from the majority." Permission to speak shouldn't be doled out by the state based on the popularity of the idea.

But that isn't the end of the unbridled discretion. Because once a bill is in the hands of the legislature, it seems to be a sort of political free-for-all as to whether they wish to approve or disapprove of any group's message. Arkansas refused to give the Knights of Columbus a specialty plate, for fear that the KKK would want one, too. The California legislature went berserk over whether the Boy Scouts should get plates, because some felt the group was discriminatory. So, state discretion doesn't stop with the promotion of only popular ideas. It becomes even more blatant as lawmakers decide whether they approve of the ideas, and apparently, they make these decisions without standards or rules either.

The entire opinion piece/analysis can be found at the link below. I found it fascinating.

http://www.slate.com/id/2078247/

Great research TFT! Interesting reading. :wave:


.

[kathydwells]

I've been waiting for this one:biggrin::clap: Can you do one with the Miss Kitty tar in the middle????????


http://www.sowal.com/bb/gallery/files/2/5/7/plate.jpg

:biggrin:

[aleonard]

http://www.sowal.com/bb/gallery/files/2/5/7/plate.jpg

:biggrin:


We have a winner:clap:

[scooterbug44]

There are currently 108 license plates in Florida. I have not reviewed the list. Am I to believe that each of this non-profit organizations is a government sanctioned entity?

IMO:
A license plate is a government issued and publicly displayed form of identification.

If they issue a license plate that benefits a certain group, they give that group legitimacy and ARE approving of that cause.

If you can get a license plate for your cause it is now a group/cause recognized by the government and funds are collected by the government on behalf of that group.

I think the group who asked for this license plate has a good cause (funds go to maintain gravesites etc) and that they just need a different design that removes the racial overtones that the flag unfortunately represents. A graphic showing a veteran, a cannon, or a military figure w/ the tag line "honoring our confederate veterans" etc. would be much less controversial.

[Geo]

This thread reinforces my belief that we can tolerate anything except tolerance.

Love the words- especially the fact that they might have been used in a strategically ambiguous way to make both sides think they were for them... (no sarcasm intended here)

In getting past the ambiguity, may I ask (and would you answer)-

Do your words mean that you believe folks who don't like the flag should demonstrate tolerance for those who are proud of it by not protesting its usage on gov't issued license plates?

Or that you believe that folks who are proud of the flag should demonstrate tolerance for those who aren't proud of its racist associations/inflammatory nature by discontinuing support of its proposed usage on gov't issued license plates?

Or both?

Finally, do you not believe that by participating in this discussion without crossing the line toward personal attacks that folks on two different ends of the issue are demonstrating some tolerance?

Thanks...

[Geo]

I agree with whomever it was that said that this might be one of those abortion like issues in that both sides are strong in their convictions and will just keep making solid arguments to each other with no end in sight. Perhaps a cry to- agree to disagree...

But I cannot help but wonder-

Is there anyone out there who, as a result of this dialogue, has had a change of heart (in either direction) on this issue?

[Bob]

Ocala :roll: There are some Southerners in Gainesville, and lots of horsey people in Ocala.



:rolling:



See my quote from Jeb Bush (okay, a spokeswoman), circa 2001, on page 1 of this thread: "the governor believes that most Floridians would agree that the symbols of Florida's past should not be displayed in a manner that may divide Floridians today." Jeb recognized that this was a slippery slope.Perhaps Jeb could have asked if the image of the first governor of Florida on the twenty dollar bill is divisive to native Americans. I guess Jeb was busy with planning a future of selling worthless securities to the state, his wife was deciding which body cavity to put jewelry in for the airport gauntlet, and the Seminoles were reading about slot machine maintenance. Someone ahead of my post has pointed out the stupidity of the migration of bumper stickers to license plates, It's done to generate private cause slush funds. The controversy stems from the fact that there seems to be no end to the variants, and this is the end game when everyone wants in. Money is the root of this waste of time, just as money was at the root of the cause of the civil war. Perhaps someone should ask law enforcement just how difficult to spot any one vehicle with a Florida license plate? Maybe we'll have a blank white graffiti tag, whereby the owner gives it his/her personal spraypaint touch, and the money goes to the ACLU.

[Bob]

I am not a Southerner but I love the South and I find this whole debate sad more than anything.

It is as if the Confederacy not only lost the Civil War, which of course it catastrophically did, condemning subsequent generations to dreadful economic hardship and a bitterness which persists even to this day, as we see here. But it also lost the ideological conflict too. History may famously be written by the victors, but do the vanquished have to read their propaganda and agree with it also?

The Confederate Battle Flag is not just a symbol of slavery, surely? It was/is the symbol of an incipient Southern nationhood which was brutally crushed by force of arms.

THE most potent symbol of Southern culture and identity. The pictorial representation of a secession of equal legitimacy (or illegitimacy) as the American Revolution itself.

Both were armed rebellions asserting a right to independence from the then legally constituted Government. (And both had slavery as an integral part).

Successful secessionists are patriots and heroes. Unsuccessful ones are traitorous rebels and slave holding racists. George Washington ended up on the banknotes with the Capital City named in his honour. Jefferson Davis in chains in the dungeon of Fortress Monroe.

The battle flag is a symbol which includes a legacy of slavery, and also the bigotry of many racists who have subsequently flown it. You can't gainsay that unfortunate reality.

But it encompasses so much more than that. A whole nation and culture. The sacrifice of a generation of young men lost in a pointless war which decimated the Confederacy in a way unparalleled in the much more populous North. Above all it exemplifies that famous, estimable Southern pride which was the only thing the Yankees could not take away by force.

Everyone has a right to it not just the redneck bigots. All of you guys should be able to remember the fate of those ancestors of yours who fought and died under that flag. You SHOULD proudly display it on your car if you feel so inclined.

Sadly, as this debate shows, you just can't.

That is the tragedy of the South even today.In war, when you win, you move on, but when you lose, you can never let it go.

[John R]

I think I may petition for this license plate:

http://www.goingware.com/notes/emergency.jpg

[hnooe]

I agree with whomever it was that said that this might be one of those abortion like issues in that both sides are strong in their convictions and will just keep making solid arguments to each other with no end in sight. Perhaps a cry to- agree to disagree...

But I cannot help but wonder-

Is there anyone out there who, as a result of this dialogue, has had a change of heart (in either direction) on this issue?

Good Question! For me it has not changed one thing. A vanity license plate like this attemps to legitimize (Fla. Gov't plates) the negative feelings that some may continue to feel about the Confederate flag.

No, it is not being waved by some red neck at a rally and it is not stuck on car like a adhesive bumper sticker, but in some people's minds it still a strong negative and always will!

[hnooe]

In war, when you win, you move on, but when you lose, you can never let it go.

A simple and correct answer to a question that will be ongoing...............

[seaside2]

take it for what it says to you as a person

[30A Skunkape]

Perhaps Jeb could have asked if the image of the first governor of Florida on the twenty dollar bill is divisive to native Americans. I guess Jeb was busy with planning a future of selling worthless securities to the state, his wife was deciding which body cavity to put jewelry in for the airport gauntlet, and the Seminoles were reading about slot machine maintenance. Someone ahead of my post has pointed out the stupidity of the migration of bumper stickers to license plates, It's done to generate private cause slush funds. The controversy stems from the fact that there seems to be no end to the variants, and this is the end game when everyone wants in. Money is the root of this waste of time, just as money was at the root of the cause of the civil war. Perhaps someone should ask law enforcement just how difficult to spot any one vehicle with a Florida license plate? Maybe we'll have a blank white graffiti tag, whereby the owner gives it his/her personal spraypaint touch, and the money goes to the ACLU.

Perhaps, but considering the design has been in place since the 1920s, maybe not. Maybe you can pin it on W? Welcome back Bob, where have you been hiding?

[Geo]

take it for what it says to you as a person

To me it says-

You are arguably much wiser than me for not wearing your heart on your sleeve/tipping your hat toward either side of the issue in this forum...

[Tootsie]

TFT - I agree with you! this discussion is fascinating from beginning to end. and of course we do have a little disagreement. but overall, I believe most people (who have commented) agree that the flag is not a postiive thing for the Florida government to support.

it has reminded me to be grateful for the beauty and harmony we share in the south, especially in sowal, during this day and time. the people here (and on this board) are truly inspirational. and I am speaking about every person who has spoken, because they have the courage to do so, and because they trust us with what they believe and think and feel.

it gives us a chance to look at things from another perspective. I appreciate that.

have I learned or changed my opinion? yes, no. but, I have a better understanding by listening, and by giving this matter thought for the first time in about 15 years (it just does not come up in normal conversation in these parts - thankfully).

should the state sponsor the conferate flag/symbol on the license plate? I would say no, but if they do then it is not going to ruin my day. in some ways, I beleve those who want to be represented by the symbol, for whatever reason, then let 'em go for it. i do hope the money does not support schools in any way.

have we all missed Bob? yes!:wave:


IMO:
A license plate is a government issued and publicly displayed form of identification.

If they issue a license plate that benefits a certain group, they give that group legitimacy and A