Wisconsin and Hawaii

[rapunzel]

Okay, so tonight is my first primary night on my own and I'm extremely nervous.

I'm cautiously optimistic. The exit polls in WI are looking really good from what I understand. Rumor is that Obama is cutting into her core constituencies -- women, people that make <$50,000, people without college degrees. Apparently, she's still winning seniors.

Of course, these are just rumors. The Clinton campaign has attacked pretty hard over the past couple of days. They even attacked Michelle Obama today, which was really disappointing to me. I really, really respect Michelle Obama.

So, pins and needles.

If it's good, it could be very, very good.

[30A Skunkape]

I hope he asks her to drop out if he sweeps tonight.:lol:

[BIGDOG]

I hope he asks her to drop out if he sweeps tonight.:lol:

Before Texas and Ohio on March 4? I don't think so. Democracy is still the rule, thankfully.

Watching CNN. I'm still amazed McCain doesn't showpony his son's current tour in Iraq. He was a Sen. with something at stake in his vote, but didn't get cheap about it. Very admirable.

[scooterbug44]

I think the negative campaign tactics are going to backfire. They got cranky and patronizing with Midwestern folks at the end of a long winter - not the wisest choice IMO! ;-)

McCain's class/integrity continues to impress me.

[Margarita]

I think the negative campaign tactics are going to backfire. They got cranky and patronizing with Midwestern folks at the end of a long winter - not the wisest choice IMO! ;-)

McCain's class/integrity continues to impress me.

I agree - I am very impressed with John McCain.

[BIGDOG]

I think the negative campaign tactics are going to backfire. They got cranky and patronizing with Midwestern folks at the end of a long winter - not the wisest choice IMO! ;-)

McCain's class/integrity continues to impress me.

The more I see how things are panning out. The more I think Democrats are wrong about Clinton being the divisive candidate. McCain could beat Obama, but Clinton cuts into more of McCain's base. Same thing they did with Kerry in '04. Nobody liked Bush, but they weren't going to vote for Kerry.

I have no stake in either party, as usual, I'll vote for the best person, but Obama is not on my list on "best people".

[rapunzel]

Skunky posted my prediction....he will call on her to get out of the race.

They've called it with 1% reporting....he's done quite well...the exit polls I heard earlier was right! :clap::clap::clap:

So happy!

[BIGDOG]

Skunky posted my prediction....he will call on her to get out of the race.

They've called it with 1% reporting....he's done quite well...the exit polls I heard earlier was right! :clap::clap::clap:

So happy!

And, as always, he lacks any humility. Once again, just as he did with numerous other candidates, he's NOT holding his speech until Clinton has finished. I've NEVER seen a candidate show such utter disregard for his competition. He is very aggressive and classless.

Just an observation, Fox switch to Obama first, CNN is still double-screening.

[goodwitch58]

Skunky posted my prediction....he will call on her to get out of the race.

They've called it with 1% reporting....he's done quite well...the exit polls I heard earlier was right! :clap::clap::clap:

So happy!

congrats rapunzel:clap:

[rapunzel]

And, as always, he lacks any humility. Once again, just as he did with numerous other candidates, he's NOT holding his speech until Clinton has finished. I've NEVER seen a candidate show such utter disregard for his competition. He is very aggressive and classless.

Just an observation, Fox switch to Obama first, CNN is still double-screening.

She went so negative this week, she cooked up a plagiarism charge and accused him of dishonesty. She attacked his wife and fed an out of context clip to the media today. She has done nothing but show contempt for him and attack him for trying to run a campaign on issues and ideas. She is unapologetic for these attacks, saying the Republicans will do worse.

Well, they'd probably not wait for her to finish a speech, either.

[BIGDOG]

She went so negative this week, she cooked up a plagiarism charge and accused him of dishonesty. She attacked his wife and fed an out of context clip to the media today. She has done nothing but show contempt for him and attack him for trying to run a campaign on issues and ideas. She is unapologetic for these attacks, saying the Republicans will do worse.

Well, they'd probably not wait for her to finish a speech, either.


Frankly, I'm shocked nobodoy brought up his "appropriation" of Chavez's very famous "Yes You Can" battlecry that has become the motto of the United Farmers Union created by a TRUE visionary Chavez.

The irony, the farmer's union is endorsing CLINTON. :floor:

[up4golf]

sorry bd but i think she is got a fork in her.

[BIGDOG]

sorry bd but i think she is got a fork in her.

Perhaps, but even if Clinton doesn't win, it doesn't make Obama a good candidate.

Frankly, he's just not presented himself as someone capable of diplomacy.

Obama doesn't need Clinton to make him look bad. I assure you MOST Americans found it offensive when Michelle Obama, a Senators wife, said she had NEVER been proud of America until now, even in context. MOST people found Obama's arrogant response to plagiarism offensive. That he would suggest he and Deval "swap ideas" instead of crediting Deval for sharing his beautiful words. I'd like to know what speech Deval stole from him.

Clinton was pretty darn accomodating to him during the LA debates and showed a level of diplomacy and graciousness that makes me feel much better about her potential to ensure peace than Obama's aggressive, egomaniacal behavior.

Furthermore, as I listen to his speech tonight, I'm shocked at how incongruous his speech is with his voting record and life and how little people seem to care.

[Mango]

The irony, the farmer's union is endorsing CLINTON. :floor:

That might include cattle farmers which BTW just had 135 million lbs. of beef recalled. :roll: MOO....

[scooterbug44]

Oh, please, please, please, please! :bow:

An Obama/McCain election! Reform, integrity, and brain cells in use!http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0014.gif (http://www.ladies-shoes.biz/ladies-shoes/63889-1.html)

That might include cattle farmers which BTW just had 135 million lbs. of beef recalled. MOO....

Those were cattle farmers in California!

[InletBchDweller]

Perhaps, but even if Clinton doesn't win, it doesn't make Obama a good candidate.
.

awwww come on, he gives HOPE....which to me, that and $.50 will buy you a Coke.;-)

[up4golf]

Perhaps, but even if Clinton doesn't win, it doesn't make Obama a good candidate.


no but what can you do ? cry with hillary a day then figure obama or mccain. i think obama really does have the better chance in november than hillary.

[BIGDOG]

That might include cattle farmers which BTW just had 135 million lbs. of beef recalled. :roll: MOO....

Tough to say. The two fired supervisors Luis Sanchez, 32, and Daniel Navarro, 49, at that plant were illegal immigrants. Don't know how much the United Farmer's Union has changed, but Chavez led the first march to the Mexican border to protest illegal immigration Mondale and MLK's Ralph Abernathy. The UFW also picketed INS offices to demand closure of the borders.

Another reason to believe the employees weren't union was the ease with which they were fired.

It's unlikely that Westland/Hallmark was unionized, but if it were, I believe that's more of a comment on the state of our unions and labor rights than the candidates. All the candidates support UFW's new agenda. However, only Clinton received their endorsement.

[BIGDOG]

no but what can you do ? cry with hillary a day then figure obama or mccain. i think obama really does have the better chance in november than hillary.

Again, I think Democrats are misguided. Given the choice, people will choose McCain over Obama. In '04 Bush's votes were mostly registered in opposition of Kerry. The Democrats have been out of touch in their strategy since Bill Clinton and they've been their own undoing.

Change is not more extremism. Change is working together.
Clinton's recent Senate service has proven her a more moderate candidate who can work both sides of the aisle, therefore, proving a more viable threat to McCain, especially amongst anti-Iraq voters who are seeking more moderate, thoughtful leadership.

[scooterbug44]

Tough to say. The two fired supervisors Luis Sanchez, 32, and Daniel Navarro, 49, at that plant were illegal immigrants. Don't know how much the United Farmer's Union has changed, but Chavez led the first march to the Mexican border to protest illegal immigration Mondale and MLK's Ralph Abernathy. The UFW also picketed INS offices to demand closure of the borders.

Another reason to believe the employees weren't union was the ease with which they were fired.

It's unlikely that Westland/Hallmark was unionized, but if it were, I believe that's more of a comment on the state of our unions and labor rights than the candidates. All the candidates support UFW's new agenda. However, only Clinton received their endorsement.

THOSE ABUSED COWS WERE IN CALIFORNIA!

WI cows are in danger of drunken high school kid cow tipping and frostbite, but it's not a Chavez/immigration issue. :biggrin:

[rapunzel]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone can call her gracious and diplomatic. She has a great command of policy and facts, she is a tough politician. But she is divisive, and her tenacity has gone too far.

She is losing support to such a degree that she is now attacking the frontrunner not on issues but on attacks on focus group generated perceived weaknesses. The attacks not on points of policy, but on character, are more damaging coming from a fellow Democrat. Remember Reagan's old rule?

When, in pursuit of a nomination, she begins to tear down the stronger candidate, she tries to throw out the party rules, her advisors admit they plan to try to persuade PLEDGED delegates to flip at the convention...when her campaign acknowledges she isn't going to win the most earned delegates or the most votes, but plans to take the nomination with superdelegates and stolen delegates...when her personal ambition is more important than the good of the party....she can no longer be called gracious. If there is an egomaniacal person in this race, it is not Barack Obama.

Hillary Clinton is a strong woman, a tough candidate, and she's still fighting hard. I don't support her, because I feel Barack Obama's philosophy of campaigning and governing and his stand on issues -- particularly healthcare -- are better than her ideas. I am very happy that tonight went well for him, and I'm sorry if my joy provoked feelings of anger in some people.

Frankly, I'm disappointed at how this thread has veered into snark.

[BIGDOG]

THOSE ABUSED COWS WERE IN CALIFORNIA!

WI cows are in danger of drunken high school kid cow tipping and frostbite, but it's not a Chavez/immigration issue. :biggrin:

That's what we were discussing. Mango believed there was a connection between the UFW endorsement and Westland/Hallmark.

Don't know anything about cows in WI! I'm afraid cow-tipping is not in my repetoire!:biggrin:

[BIGDOG]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone can call her gracious and diplomatic. She has a great command of policy and facts, she is a tough politician. But she is divisive, and her tenacity has gone too far.

She is losing support to such a degree that she is now attacking the frontrunner not on issues but on attacks on focus group generated perceived weaknesses. The attacks not on points of policy, but on character, are more damaging coming from a fellow Democrat. Remember Reagan's old rule?

When, in pursuit of a nomination, she begins to tear down the stronger candidate, she tries to throw out the party rules, her advisors admit they plan to try to persuade PLEDGED delegates to flip at the convention...when her campaign acknowledges she isn't going to win the most earned delegates or the most votes, but plans to take the nomination with superdelegates and stolen delegates...when her personal ambition is more important than the good of the party....she can no longer be called gracious. If there is an egomaniacal person in this race, it is not Barack Obama.

Hillary Clinton is a strong woman, a tough candidate, and she's still fighting hard. I don't support her, because I feel Barack Obama's philosophy of campaigning and governing and his stand on issues -- particularly healthcare -- are better than her ideas. I am very happy that tonight went well for him, and I'm sorry if my joy provoked feelings of anger in some people.

Frankly, I'm disappointed at how this thread has veered into snark.


I respectfully disagree with your assessment and opinion. Just fact. No snark here.

[Geo]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone can call her gracious and diplomatic. She has a great command of policy and facts, she is a tough politician. But she is divisive, and her tenacity has gone too far.

She is losing support to such a degree that she is now attacking the frontrunner not on issues but on attacks on focus group generated perceived weaknesses. The attacks not on points of policy, but on character, are more damaging coming from a fellow Democrat. Remember Reagan's old rule?

When, in pursuit of a nomination, she begins to tear down the stronger candidate, she tries to throw out the party rules, her advisors admit they plan to try to persuade PLEDGED delegates to flip at the convention...when her campaign acknowledges she isn't going to win the most earned delegates or the most votes, but plans to take the nomination with superdelegates and stolen delegates...when her personal ambition is more important than the good of the party....she can no longer be called gracious. If there is an egomaniacal person in this race, it is not Barack Obama.

Hillary Clinton is a strong woman, a tough candidate, and she's still fighting hard. I don't support her, because I feel Barack Obama's philosophy of campaigning and governing and his stand on issues -- particularly healthcare -- are better than her ideas. I am very happy that tonight went well for him, and I'm sorry if my joy provoked feelings of anger in some people.

Frankly, I'm disappointed at how this thread has veered into snark.

I respectfully agree with your assessment and opinion. No facts. Just snark here.
:clap:

[seacrestgirl]

Skunky posted my prediction....he will call on her to get out of the race.

They've called it with 1% reporting....he's done quite well...the exit polls I heard earlier was right! :clap::clap::clap:

So happy!

WoooooooooHoooooooooo! :D

[Mango]

OH FTLOG, I was inferring Clinton needed recalling.

[Tootsie]

I respectfully agree with your assessment and opinion. No facts. Just snark here.
:clap:

ditto!:clap:

OH FTLOG, I was inferring Clinton needed recalling.

we know what you meant mangy. activate IB.

[BIGDOG]

I respectfully disagree with your assessment and opinion. Just fact. No snark here.

Perhaps your assertion was correct. Sadly this thread has veered into snark. :yawn:

[hnooe]

Hillary Clinton is a strong woman, a tough candidate, and she's still fighting hard. I don't support her, because I feel Barack Obama's philosophy of campaigning and governing and his stand on issues -- particularly healthcare -- are better than her ideas. I am very happy that tonight went well for him, and I'm sorry if my joy provoked feelings of anger in some people.

Frankly, I'm disappointed at how this thread has veered into snark.
__________________________________________________ __________

Rapunzel, First. I am as much a Democrat as Walton GOP is a Republican.
I WILL support the Dem. candidate. Second, I am old school. For an elected official to have gotten my vote, they will have to "TELL ME WHAT they are going to do, and then they have to believably tell me what they have done." Chris Mathews pointed this question out this A.M. on Morning Joe with Joe Scarborough. He interviewed an Obama official last night who verbally "froze" at the question of live television.

Right now I feel if I vote for Barack, I will have voted again for Jimmy Carter. I do not want to do that. I realize Carter was a Governor and not in the Senate, and there are many differences obviously...but, calm my unfounded fears in just a few sentences, please.

[30A Skunkape]

A good rule of thumb-A candidate thugish enough to mine for dirt in a political opponent's kindergarten papers is a candidate unworthy of support.

[hnooe]

A good rule of thumb-A candidate thugish enough to mine for dirt in a political opponent's kindergarten papers is a candidate unworthy of support.
Very true--in a positive note then, Obama is essentially "dirt free"--I am thinking Clinton's have a dirt bomb to set off right before Texas primaries, though.

[30A Skunkape]

Very true--in a positive note then, Obama is essentially "dirt free"--I am thinking Clinton's have a dirt bomb to set of right before Texas primaries, though.

Of course. These are the same folks who pulled FBI files on private citizens while WJC was the President. That is why I urge everyone to email Hillary and ask her to step aside before she activates the Clinton slime machine (which is really the only card she has left to trip-up Obama). Here is the link: http://www.senate.gov/~clinton/email_form.html

[Beach Runner]

Tim Russert on The Today Show this AM said that the only way Clinton can win is if she goes into attack mode. If he's right, I won't disparage her for being negative in order to make her dream become true. She needs to do what it takes IMO.

[BeachSiO2]

Tim Russert on The Today Show this AM said that the only way Clinton can win is if she goes into attack mode. If he's right, I won't disparage her for being negative in order to make her dream become true. She needs to do what it takes IMO.

And isn't that what has gotten us where we are in today's politics. :idontno: Just look at the Congress of "the people" with the lowest approval rating in history. It's all about making us (Donkeys and Elephants) look good at all costs and no working for the betterment of all.

[Furthur]

I agree with BIGDOG. McCain would have a much harder time beating Hillary.
If there was truth in advertising Obama would have to be called a Democratic Socialist.
Reagan Democrats are not going to vote for him.

[Mango]

I agree with BIGDOG. McCain would have a much harder time beating Hillary.
If there was truth in advertising Obama would have to be called a Democratic Socialist.
Reagan Democrats are not going to vote for him.

Y'all can feign ignorance of the polls all you want, but Obama is leading in the Presidential Poll (http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll)right now for all you Rasmu followers.
Obama leads 46% to McCain's 42%, while McCain leads Hillary 47% to 43%. The DNC are not going to ignore those numbers.

Rasmussen Markets Update: Obama Now Overwhelming Favorite to Win Democratic Presidential Nomination
Wednesday, February 20, 2008
On the morning after his big victory in Wisconsin, Rasmussen Markets (http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/latest_results_from_rasmussen_markets) data showed that Barack Obama had a 79% chance of winning the Democratic Presidential nomination. Hillary Clinton’s prospects had fallen to just 20% (current prices: Obama : 80.8 (http://rasmussen.intrade.com/aav2/trading/contractInfo.jsp?conDetailID=68180) % Clinton: 19.2 (http://rasmussen.intrade.com/aav2/trading/contractInfo.jsp?conDetailID=68178) %). Those figures reflect a nine-percentage point gain for Obama--before voting began in Wisconsin, the markets gave Obama a 70% chance of victory.

But hey, y'all can dream all you like. ;-)

[hnooe]

I agree with BIGDOG. McCain would have a much harder time beating Hillary.
If there was truth in advertising Obama would have to be called a Democratic Socialist.
Reagan Democrats are not going to vote for him.

F, I think that is a very valid point. But will he ultimately lose because of that, I doubt it.

[Furthur]

I think Obama economics is going to motivate a whole lot of people.
Polls are useless. It will all come down to who actually shows up to vote.
Will the kids show? Historically they don't.

[scooterbug44]

15% of the voters in the WI primary were first time voters, which makes me think issues are hitting close to home and there will be a big turnout in Nov.

[30A Skunkape]

I think Obama economics is going to motivate a whole lot of people.
Polls are useless. It will all come down to who actually shows up to vote.
Will the kids show? Historically they don't.

True, but something tells me (besides the record turnout amongst the youth) they will show up if there is somebody to pull a lever for instead of duds like Kerry, Gore, Dukakis and Mondale. OK, Gore wasn't a dud, he was just an unwelcome continuation of Bill Clinton...hey wait a minute:blink:

[hnooe]

True, but something tells me (besides the record turnout amongst the youth) they will show up if there is somebody to pull a lever for instead of duds like Kerry, Gore, Dukakis and Mondale. OK, Gore wasn't a dud, he was just an unwelcome continuation of Bill Clinton...hey wait a minute:blink:

In retrospect, I would have rather stuck with the 2000 continuation of Bill Clinton, over the possible 2008 continuation of Bill Clinton.

[Tootsie]

Y'all can feign ignorance of the polls all you want, but Obama is leading in the Presidential Poll (http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll)right now for all you Rasmu followers.
Obama leads 46% to McCain's 42%, while McCain leads Hillary 47% to 43%. The DNC are not going to ignore those numbers.

Rasmussen Markets Update: Obama Now Overwhelming Favorite to Win Democratic Presidential Nomination
Wednesday, February 20, 2008
On the morning after his big victory in Wisconsin, Rasmussen Markets (http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/latest_results_from_rasmussen_markets) data showed that Barack Obama had a 79% chance of winning the Democratic Presidential nomination. Hillary Clinton’s prospects had fallen to just 20% (current prices: Obama : 80.8 (http://rasmussen.intrade.com/aav2/trading/contractInfo.jsp?conDetailID=68180) % Clinton: 19.2 (http://rasmussen.intrade.com/aav2/trading/contractInfo.jsp?conDetailID=68178) %). Those figures reflect a nine-percentage point gain for Obama--before voting began in Wisconsin, the markets gave Obama a 70% chance of victory.

But hey, y'all can dream all you like. ;-)

thanks for the timely info mangy.


In retrospect, I would have rather stuck with the 2000 continuation of Bill Clinton, over the possible 2008 continuation of Bill Clinton.

I wanted Gore for Prez. he may be boring as a brick wall, but he does have a brain and the ability to speak intelligently.

[rapunzel]

__________________________________________________ __________

Rapunzel, First. I am as much a Democrat as Walton GOP is a Republican.
I WILL support the Dem. candidate. Second, I am old school. For an elected official to have gotten my vote, they will have to "TELL ME WHAT they are going to do, and then they have to believably tell me what they have done." Chris Mathews pointed this question out this A.M. on Morning Joe with Joe Scarborough. He interviewed an Obama official last night who verbally "froze" at the question of live television.

Right now I feel if I vote for Barack, I will have voted again for Jimmy Carter. I do not want to do that. I realize Carter was a Governor and not in the Senate, and there are many differences obviously...but, calm my unfounded fears in just a few sentences, please.

I can't do it in just a few sentences. All I can tell you about in a few sentences would be a sound bite, which people dismiss as hope and change and not important. Obviously, my opinion is that Washington is all about access and money and only getting rid of lobbyists and their money will ever change anything. Mark Penn, king of the sleazy lobbyists, has run Hillary's campaign, and not served her well.

But, hnooe2000, I sense you believe the message that Obama is all style and no substance. So, I think you need a lot more than a few sentences, and I hope you will take a few minutes and read this --

I Refuse to Buy into the Obama Hype
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 05:13:32 PM PST

The next President is going to have some MAJOR challenges.
I refuse to buy into the hype, on either side, but especially on that of Obama. However the "empty rhetoric" v. "history of accomplishments" arguments have prompted me to check it out on my own, not relying on any candidate's website, book....click link for the rest....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633

And please everyone, don't make snarky comments about hope being an empty promise and Obama lacking experience without reading this first. Or I'll come at you like a spider monkey.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=k5zFiYHgftw

[hnooe]

Thanks for taking the time Rapunzel to respond. I do come away with the feeling a lot has been accomplished in the Senate by him in a very short period of time, and it was not just quantity of legislation over quality--thanks, and please don't sick the spider monkeys on me! (I am going to have nightmares now!:eek:). PS The old man in the video--was he suppose to be John McCain?

[rapunzel]

Thanks for taking the time Rapunzel to respond. I do come away with the feeling a lot has been accomplished in the Senate by him in a very short period of time, and it was not just quantity of legislation over quality--thanks, and please don't sick the spider monkeys on me! (I am going to have nightmares now!:eek:). PS The old man in the video--was he suppose to be John McCain?

Oh, no!!!:floor:

That's a clip from Talladega Nights -- it's a Will Farrell movie. Spider Monkey and "I'm all jacked up on Mountain Dew!" are two of the best movie lines ever! I just put the clip in for context.

I'm glad you took the time to look at that blog and the LoC website. It really is eye opening with regard to approach, which has been my major sticking point on the health care issue all along. But, if you want to be really blown away by how good both Obama and Clinton are, just click on one of the other Senators. I looked at Bill Nelson and both senators from Georgia. It's amazing how little is done. I didn't see a bill of Nelson's that was passed with the exception of resolutions commending football and basketball teams from Florida.

[buster]

So sad that the way those boys act is typical, but it is a funny scene.