is hillary toast ?

[up4golf]

3 more for barrack obama. does hillary have the preception of being the loser now ?

[30A Skunkape]

Much like Jason Vorhees, Michael Meyers or Freddy Krueger, she can take a heck of a whallop and pop back up again and again.

[John R]

http://www.superherodesigns.com/journal/wicked_witch.jpg

[hnooe]

Depends what happens in Texas, Texas could be to Hillary what Florida was to Rudy. The Obama campaign is chipping away at it!

[scooterbug44]

I hope so!

I had a mild freak out moment last night when I was doing the dishes and realized I could potentially (though not probably) be faced with the hideous choice of voting for either Huckabee or Hilary :yikes:.

[John R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3G-lMZxjo

[Cil]

She Can't Catch Us (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0208/Plouffe_She_cant_catch_us.html)
"It's not votes, it's delegates."

Dear Senator Hillary Clinton, Please Step Down (http://queenofspainblog.com/2008/02/12/dear-senator-hillary-clinton-please-step-down/)
"Enter the Senator from Illinois, and what I think could be your true legacy. If you were to step aside now, shockingly early and shockingly un-Hilllary-like, you could galvanize an entire nation behind your party. If you were to throw your weight, and your tremendous political clout behind Senator Obama you could still change the world and make your mark in a way no one would expect and everyone would admire."

[rapunzel]

Thanks for the link, Cil. That's a great blog post. And the comments -- Hillary as majority leader and Obama as President. I can't imagine a better outcome for our country.

As of this morning, I am firmly convince Sen. Obama will be the Democratic nominee. I think everyone in the Clinton camp agrees, but I'm not sure they've shared that with her.

She would have to win every remaining contest with 65% of the vote to catch him in pledged delegates, and it's highly unlikely the superdelegates would choose the candidate with fewer delegates and overturn the democratic choice.

Now, it's time to decide whether she goes to the mattresses, tearing apart the party and handicapping the nominee in the general election, or she rises above the Clinton reputation and does the decent thing. She has the opportunity to differentiate herself from her husband now, which will do more for her in Democratic circles than fighting tooth and nail for the nomination ever could. I hope she does, because when she was strong and formidable it was thrilling to fight her for the nomination, but now that she is going after the almost impossible with teeth bared it just makes me sad for the past and for all the Clintons did in the 90's. Nobody wants to fight her to the death. I may think Barack Obama is the best person to be our next President, but I have no appetite for shredding our elder statesmen (not in the old sense, but in the former First Lady and President and an important Democratic figure).

[Arkiehawg]

I believe that this is far from over. The article stated that superdelegates "should" support the candidate with the most delegates. That is wishful thinking....powerplays will decide the nominee if it gets to that point. The other thing to remember is what it looks like IF Michigan and Florida votes/delegates are eventually included. I believe that the party will be forced to include them before this is over. Add them into the mix and you have a dead heat. Her keys will be Texas and Ohio....without a doubt.

With Florida and Michigan
Total Vote %
Obama 9,942,375 47%
Clinton 9,860,138 47%
Others 1,249,922 6%

[Margarita]

Yep - I also believe that it is far from over. I don't think Hillary will go down without a fight. I am just waiting for one of her surrogates to conveniently release some "dirt" on Obama right before the Texas and Ohio primary. My opinion is that she is in desperation mode right now and will not let facts get in her way.

[up4golf]

[quote=Arkiehawg;360876]I believe that this is far from over. The article stated that superdelegates "should" support the candidate with the most delegates. quote]
i think if it goes to the super-delagates and they pick hillary it smells of the old political ways and some democrats and most independents will abandon hillary, she will lose big in november. but if super-delagates pick obama most democrats will embrace him and independents will stay, then in november it would still be possible for a democrat to win. to me it seems super-delagates really only have one choice if the democrats want to have a chance in the general election and that is to pick obama.

[Beach Runner]

James Carville on Larry King Live said that Hillary has to win both Texas and Ohio to win the nomination. Period.

[rapunzel]

With Florida and Michigan
Total Vote %
Obama 9,942,375 47%
Clinton 9,860,138 47%
Others 1,249,922 6%


Obama / Clinton
Popular vote -- 9,942,375 / 9,860,138
States 23 / 13*
Delegates 1032 / 944

I don't know how you step over the person with the most popular votes, the most pledged delegates, and the most statewide wins and give the nomination to the other candidate through the votes of non-democratically elected superdelegates without tearing the party apart. Especially when even this math requires the inclusion of states where there was no campaigning and both candidates publicly supported the decision not to count the delegates. I know it's theoretically possible, but it's stupid and only gains her the nomination, not the presidency. Do you really think a base still bitter over the 2000 election is going to be energized by such an outcome? It's political suicide.

[30A Skunkape]

Let me go out on a limb and predict that this is going to get ugly. Hillary has been positioning herself for this moment for 30 years, enduring all the humiliation courtesy of Bill, waiting, waiting, waiting. This is her moment, in her mind. There is no way she is going to go quietly into the sunset. No way. It is like a team getting to the Super Bowl, falling behind by two touchdowns in the fourth quarter and quiting. Not going to happen-this is Hillary's Super Bowl and she and her handlers are going to do whatever it takes to bring Obama down.

[Arkiehawg]

Obama / Clinton
Popular vote -- 9,942,375 / 9,860,138
States 23 / 13*
Delegates 1032 / 944

I don't know how you step over the person with the most popular votes, the most pledged delegates, and the most statewide wins and give the nomination to the other candidate through the votes of non-democratically elected superdelegates without tearing the party apart. Especially when even this math requires the inclusion of states where there was no campaigning and both candidates publicly supported the decision not to count the delegates. I know it's theoretically possible, but it's stupid and only gains her the nomination, not the presidency. Do you really think a base still bitter over the 2000 election is going to be energized by such an outcome? It's political suicide.

CNN Delegate count shows 1253/1211

Add Michigan 50/78
Add Florida 0/185

Total 1303/1474

That is a big difference. Instead of fussing about the supers (which by the way includes many elected officials) we should be screaming to the head mules to include all states and their delegates in this decision. After all, It is the voice of the DEMs in THOSE states that deserve to be heard as well and not just the "selected" states....

[iwishiwasthere]

http://www.superherodesigns.com/journal/wicked_witch.jpg

:floor: Good one!

[wrobert]

Obama / Clinton
Popular vote -- 9,942,375 / 9,860,138
States 23 / 13*
Delegates 1032 / 944

I don't know how you step over the person with the most popular votes, the most pledged delegates, and the most statewide wins and give the nomination to the other candidate through the votes of non-democratically elected superdelegates without tearing the party apart. Especially when even this math requires the inclusion of states where there was no campaigning and both candidates publicly supported the decision not to count the delegates. I know it's theoretically possible, but it's stupid and only gains her the nomination, not the presidency. Do you really think a base still bitter over the 2000 election is going to be energized by such an outcome? It's political suicide.

Rove is a genius!


Sorry Rapunzel. Had to throw it out there. Did not mean to get your blood pressure to close to boiling.

The problem now is I am having primary withdrawals. No results to watch for days. And it is too soon for Hillary to pull her stunt, whatever it may be.

[Miss Kitty]

Rove is a genius!


Sorry Rapunzel. Had to throw it out there. Did not mean to get your blood pressure to close to boiling.

The problem now is I am having primary withdrawals. No results to watch for days. And it is too soon for Hillary to pull her stunt, whatever it may be.


Come on over to Texas...they are both on TV more than Britney Spears! Hillary has been sporting muy sombreros. I have to admit that it is strange to be in this postion. Usually, by the time the first Tuesday in March rolls around the race is pretty much wrapped up!

[iwishiwasthere]

Come on over to Texas...they are both on TV more than Britney Spears! Hillary has been sporting muy sombreros. I have to admit that it is strange to be in this postion. Usually, by the time the first Tuesday in March rolls around the race is pretty much wrapped up!


Got any pics??

[rapunzel]

CNN Delegate count shows 1253/1211

Add Michigan 50/78
Add Florida 0/185

Total 1303/1474

That is a big difference. Instead of fussing about the supers (which by the way includes many elected officials) we should be screaming to the head mules to include all states and their delegates in this decision. After all, It is the voice of the DEMs in THOSE states that deserve to be heard as well and not just the "selected" states....

Those CNN numbers include superdelegates. That's exactly my point -- she has to include superdelegates, an uncontested state, and a state which she agreed would not be counted until after it was politically expedient to do so to get to a number that comes close to Sen. Obama's.

Mermaid just told me that her 21 year old niece will be a superdelegate from Maine in Denver (that's awesome and I am so jealous!!). I am sure if she is anything like her aunt she is darling girl and a wise one as well (Obama girl!). However, the idea that her vote is equal to that of 13,000 people like me is totally anathematic to democracy. If the Clintons try to say otherwise, and the DNC backs them up, I will be protesting in Denver like it's 1968.

http://www.columbiachronicle.com/paper/images/1917_1.jpeg

Hey, WGOP...do you think you and your buddy Rove could give me a ride up? Good times....

[wrobert]

DNC backs them up, I will be protesting in Denver like it's 1968.

http://www.columbiachronicle.com/paper/images/1917_1.jpeg

Hey, WGOP...do you think you and your buddy Rove could give me a ride up? Good times....

I wonder if revolution would be good for the country?

[rapunzel]

I wonder if revolution would be good for the country?

"Our own Country's Honor, all call upon us for a vigorous and manly exertion, and if we now shamefully fail, we shall become infamous to the whole world. Let us therefore rely upon the goodness of the Cause, and the aid of the supreme Being, in whose hands Victory is, to animate and encourage us to great and noble Actions -- The Eyes of all our Countrymen are now upon us, and we shall have their blessings, and praises, if happily we are the instruments of saving them from the Tyranny meditated against them. Let us therefore animate and encourage each other, and show the whole world, that a free man contending for Liberty on his own ground is superior to any slavish mercenary on earth."
- George Washington, 1776

:wave:

[John R]

I wonder if revolution would be good for the country?

actually, the timing is about right. looking forward to the change.

[NotDeadYet]

However, the idea that her vote is equal to that of 13,000 people like me is totally anathematic to democracy.

While we are at it, can we get rid of the Electoral College too?
I don't know why you think it is a democracy :confused: with a system like that.

[hnooe]

While we are at it, can we get rid of the Electoral College too?
I don't know why you think it is a democracy :confused: with a system like that.

I agree Not Dead Yet, but I would say Hillary is not dead yet.

[rapunzel]

CNN Delegate count shows 1253/1211

Add Michigan 50/78
Add Florida 0/185

Total 1303/1474

That is a big difference. Instead of fussing about the supers (which by the way includes many elected officials) we should be screaming to the head mules to include all states and their delegates in this decision. After all, It is the voice of the DEMs in THOSE states that deserve to be heard as well and not just the "selected" states....

Upon re-reading this, I'd like to say that I agree we should demanding that the voices of the people be heard in Michigan and Florida in an open and fair election that follows a period of campaigning that gives candidates an opportunity to present their ideas to the people, as happens in a democracy. That is why I have been encouraging everyone to write to kthurman@fladems.com and demand that the Florida Democratic Party accept the DNC's suggestion that Florida hold free and fair caucuses to distribute it's delegates. I hope you have done this!

[NotDeadYet]

That is why I have been encouraging everyone to write to kthurman@fladems.com and demand that the Florida Democratic Party accept the DNC's suggestion that Florida hold free and fair caucuses to distribute it's delegates. I hope you have done this!

I have been pondering this since it was first suggested. I do not think I agree that this is the way to solve the problem. I just don't see how it can be considered free and fair to discount all the voters who did go to the polls and vote in the Dem primary. Many of them apparently did not understand what had happened, and voted their preference as if their vote would count. I suppose you can say, well, they can just go and do it again, but never have I voted in an election in this country and then been given an opportunity to change my mind and vote again. I think caucuses are a good idea for the next election, but not this one. I just cannot convince myself it is fair. I don't know what the solution is though, I will admit that. Too bad what happened happened and now some sort of fix has to be chosen. :angry:

[Arkiehawg]

Upon re-reading this, I'd like to say that I agree we should demanding that the voices of the people be heard in Michigan and Florida in an open and fair election that follows a period of campaigning that gives candidates an opportunity to present their ideas to the people, as happens in a democracy. That is why I have been encouraging everyone to write to kthurman@fladems.com and demand that the Florida Democratic Party accept the DNC's suggestion that Florida hold free and fair caucuses to distribute it's delegates. I hope you have done this!

The Florida vote in Florida was fair and 1.7 million DEMs voted. In a state caucus you may only have 50,000 deciding the delegates....YOU call that fair?

I agree to contact the fladems BUT tell them to fight for the legal and fair vote that has already happened and force the DNC to accept it! No one stopped the candidates from campaigning in the state. The choice was theirs.....No caucus, no new vote, no redo

All of this is do to the DNC and GOP (feds/big dogs) trying to tell the state DNC and GOP parties when and how they can vote. The typical Federal vs State rights arguement. I strongly believe that the states should decide how and when they have their elections and that the national groups should not be involved.

[rapunzel]

The Florida vote in Florida was fair and 1.7 million DEMs voted. In a state caucus you may only have 50,000 deciding the delegates....YOU call that fair?

Well, you may have 2 million vote if you tell them their vote will count. 1.7 million Dems voted, but there was an extremely important property tax amendment on that ballot. Besides, with a voting eligible population of 12,116,077, the 1.7m in a contest that has seen record turnout around the country is a pretty unimpressive figure. Did those people show up having done their homework about both candidates? Did some people not bother to go to the polls? Did some switch independents and Republicans who support a Democratic candidate this time have switched their party affiliations to vote had they believed the vote would be counted?

I agree to contact the fladems BUT tell them to fight for the legal and fair vote that has already happened and force the DNC to accept it! No one stopped the candidates from campaigning in the state. The choice was theirs.....No caucus, no new vote, no redo

The DNC and leaders from the four states that would count did stop them from campaigning in the state. They were forced to sign a pledge. A pledge that helped some and hindered others based on name recognition and previous exposure in the Florida market.

If there was an election held in a country like Nicauraqua, for instance, where one candidate was well known by years of rule by association with a former ruler, and the other was relatively unknown -- and suppose some of the more famous candidate's supporters had circulated an untrue email alleging the less famous candidate practiced voodoo leading up to the election, imagine that the famous candidate benefitted in name recognition 6 to 1 over the challenger, but that the ruling elite forced a pledge not to campaign before the votes, and imagine that it was announced to everyone in the country that the election was not going to count, but that insiders whispered to their supporters that they would indeed insist that the votes count, and imagine that the ballot issue that would count in this election was one that would benefit the demographic that also supported the famous candidate.

Would you call it democracy if it had happened anywhere else?

All of this is do to the DNC and GOP (feds/big dogs) trying to tell the state DNC and GOP parties when and how they can vote. The typical Federal vs State rights arguement. I strongly believe that the states should decide how and when they have their elections and that the national groups should not be involved.

I agree. However, I do not agree that it is okay to talk out of both sides of your mouth. No one made this argument until after South Carolina had voted. It is unjust to change the rules after the game is played.

[Arkiehawg]

Actually, Florida has been very vocal long before the South Carolina vote. The big brother didn't want to listen because they didn't think it would be that close....oops....


"Well, you may have 2 million vote if you tell them their vote will count. 1.7 million Dems voted, but there was an extremely important property tax amendment on that ballot. Besides, with a voting eligible population of 12,116,077, the 1.7m in a contest that has seen record turnout around the country is a pretty unimpressive figure. Did those people show up having done their homework about both candidates? Did some people not bother to go to the polls? Did some switch independents and Republicans who support a Democratic candidate this time have switched their party affiliations to vote had they believed the vote would be counted'

1.7 mil in 2008 (double of the turnout in 2004 and you think that is unimpressive?)
750K in 2004
550K in 2000

Since when did the majority of voters EVER do their homework:D

Technically, the pledge wasn't forced. They all signed it so that they wouldn't get damaged by the mini 4 states. Obama took the gamble just like Clinton. His paid off for the mini's but hers "paid off" in Florida which could/should have more delegates.

Bottom line. The DNC is trying to force their hand vs a state decision. Typical of the attitude in DC

[rapunzel]

No, the nomination she is seeking is that of a Party, not that of a state or federal government. The party, working with the smaller states chosen to go early so that candidates without the backing of large donors could compete fairly, forced the candidates to pledge not to campaign, thereby turning the Florida primary -- with the support of the Florida branch of the Democratic Party -- into a contest of name recognition rather than an election. The Democratic party has rules and procedures required for delegates to be seated, and the Florida delegation does not meet those requirements. It's a political party, not the state. If Hillary believes that the results of the election accurately reflect her support in Florida, why is she opposed to a caucus?

Further, if she has such contempt for the DNC's rules when they don't serve her purpose, why does she seek their nomination. She could run for the presidency independently if she is so sure of her support but doesn't get the nomination by abiding by the rules she pledged to support.

I pray Howard Dean is strong enough to prevent the Clintons from tearing apart the party. And God save John Lewis!

[Arkiehawg]

Actually it IS the State of Florida vs the DNC. The Republican controlled State Legislature changed the State Law for the primary and the Florida Branch of the Democratic Party had no recourse but to honor the state law. The Florida Branch of the DNC actually lobbied against the change in dates, but in a futile effort.

Point being. Federal rule does allow Federal party rules to trump State laws. But, is that fair? Based on the law change by a Republican controlled legislature and the Florida base of the party not endorsing the change, the DNC should have been more lenient than the death penalty that they gave Florida. THAT is why all Floridians regardless of party should be screaming to the top of their lungs....State rights stepped on once again....

[rapunzel]

The party is independent of government.

The state party has been offered a way to have it's say in the choosing of the Party's nominee. We can hold a caucus.

From The Buzz http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/

Newt: re-vote in FL, MI

Gingrich: "Giving the Michigan and Florida delegates to Sen. Clinton -- particularly in light of reports that she bent the Democratic Party rules against campaigning in both states -- is a recipe for even more chaos.On the other hand, leaving the Florida and Michigan delegates unseated runs the risk for the Democrats of alienating two big states they want and need to win in November.

"The answer, for the integrity of the process, is a do-over: Hold the Michigan and Florida Democratic primaries again. The voters -- not the party insiders -- have the moral authority to choose the nominee. Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida should get that chance. Then in November, we'll have a fair fight. And I'll be honest -- it may not help the chances for a Republican victory in the fall. But it will help something even more important: the integrity of our political process."

Politically, the right thing is clear -- unfortunately, the people who control the Florda party have already thrown their support to Clinton and oppose a caucus because they the results would not be to their liking.

[Arkiehawg]

I oppose a caucus not because of Hillary nor Obama.

I oppose the caucus because Florida has already had a fair primary and the candidates made their decision to either campaign or not in the state. 1.7 million people have already spoke. A caucus would allow only a fraction of that voice to be heard.

I also oppose the thought because it will cost the State an est. 8 million dollars that it can't afford to spend.

[wrobert]

The party is independent of government.

The state party has been offered a way to have it's say in the choosing of the Party's nominee. We can hold a caucus.

From The Buzz http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/

Newt: re-vote in FL, MI


Gingrich: "Giving the Michigan and Florida delegates to Sen. Clinton -- particularly in light of reports that she bent the Democratic Party rules against campaigning in both states -- is a recipe for even more chaos.On the other hand, leaving the Florida and Michigan delegates unseated runs the risk for the Democrats of alienating two big states they want and need to win in November.


"The answer, for the integrity of the process, is a do-over: Hold the Michigan and Florida Democratic primaries again. The voters -- not the party insiders -- have the moral authority to choose the nominee. Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida should get that chance. Then in November, we'll have a fair fight. And I'll be honest -- it may not help the chances for a Republican victory in the fall. But it will help something even more important: the integrity of our political process."
Politically, the right thing is clear -- unfortunately, the people who control the Florda party have already thrown their support to Clinton and oppose a caucus because they the results would not be to their liking.


This is great. The RPOF would have a blast with a do over. Why do you think Newt is suggesting it?

[rapunzel]

The RPOF is having a blast with the fact that none of the Democratic candidates have done any widespread campaigning in the state of Florida, and the Democratic base (which they can beat with average turnout) is not energized and inspired. Don't let the Paduwan kid you, they don't want a caucus and a grassroots swell of support for Sen. Obama. They'd love to see him tied up and kept out of Florida until after the convention, with no Florida do-over.

As for the $8 million, the DNC offered to pay that.

[Mango]

Poll Preference results just in for TX

DemocratsTX Clinton42% Obama48% Someone else3%Undecided7%

[rapunzel]

Oh....my....God. Thank you, Mango! How wonderful will it be if we can avoid any of this even beginning to matter? A win in Texas would make all of this moot!

I was asked to go to Texas earlier, and was feeling like I really should. I wonder if Miss Kitty has a guest room? :D

[Tootsie]

Poll Preference results just in for TX

DemocratsTX Clinton42% Obama48% Someone else3%Undecided7%

:clap: great news. may the momentum be with obama!

[Arkiehawg]

Poll Preference results just in for TX

DemocratsTX Clinton42% Obama48% Someone else3%Undecided7%

Link? It looks like this is from the ARG poll. Many consider ARGs accuracy questionable....

Not from these polls.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/tx/texas_democratic_primary-312.html

http://www.pollster.com/08-TX-Dem-Pres-Primary.php

"At the beginning of 2008, Clinton led Obama nationally but Obama led in the key state of Iowa. Now, the campaign has done a full-reversal. Obama leads nationally, but new polling released today shows Clinton ahead in the key state of Texas (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/texas_democratic_presidential_primary).Clinton also leads in Ohio (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/ohio/ohio_democratic_presidential_primary). If Clinton can hang on and win in those states, the battle for the Democratic nomination will once again revert to toss-up status." Rasmussen Report 2/15/08

[Furthur]

I don't get it.

How can the voters in two huge states be ignored. How unfair is that?

If the Super delegates are just suppose to rubber stamp the process then why even have them.?

Where did the Idea of Caucuses come from. I can't think of a worse way to pick a candidate. I don't want my boss or preacher or neighbor knowing who I"m voting for and would never participate in such a system. It really limits participation to people on the extremes. Producing polarizing choices. Way Bad

[Mango]

Link? It looks like this is from the ARG poll. Many consider ARGs accuracy questionable....

Not from these polls.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/tx/texas_democratic_primary-312.html

http://www.pollster.com/08-TX-Dem-Pres-Primary.php

"At the beginning of 2008, Clinton led Obama nationally but Obama led in the key state of Iowa. Now, the campaign has done a full-reversal. Obama leads nationally, but new polling released today shows Clinton ahead in the key state of Texas (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/texas_democratic_presidential_primary).Clinton also leads in Ohio (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/ohio/ohio_democratic_presidential_primary). If Clinton can hang on and win in those states, the battle for the Democratic nomination will once again revert to toss-up status." Rasmussen Report 2/15/08

Well, I am not a polling quality expert, but yes, it is ARG, and the difference between Rasmussen's poll and ARG's varies because ARG polled Indy's also and it was a 3-1 in favor of Obama which narrowed the gap.
As far as I know Rasmussen didn't poll Indy's.
If you could point out they did, I would appreciate it. I guess either way, we shall soon find out.

http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/articles/american-research-group-rasmussen-reports-texas-polls-021508001.html

[krafty]

Poll Preference results just in for TX

DemocratsTX Clinton42% Obama48% Someone else3%Undecided7%

I find this thread to be very interesting, since I am a decidedly undecided voter. I am trying to get a sense of the candidates by reading not only what is on their personal web pages, but also what columnists (left and right) are saying. Any one else read this one today?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/14/AR2008021403105.html

[rapunzel]

I find this thread to be very interesting, since I am a decidedly undecided voter. I am trying to get a sense of the candidates by reading not only what is on their personal web pages, but also what columnists (left and right) are saying. Any one else read this one today?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/14/AR2008021403105.html


Yes, I did. Interestingly, Mark Penn's talking points memo that came out last Tuesday seems to have worked on Krauthammer. He polled the top doubts people say they have, and is trying to get people talking those things in the news cycles between now and March 4th. Here's their plan to win Ohio and Texas:

1. America is too racist to elect a Black President.
2. Obama has no policy substance behind him.
3. Those supporting Obama are stupid, mindless cultists, and thus their votes should be ignored.

There is a much better rebuttal to this than anything I could come up with here....http://jackandjillpolitics.blogspot.com/2008/02/latest-anti-obama-memos-circulating.html

The reason Obama is winning and will win is so simple. Americans want to believe in themselves again.


If you've been reading both websites, I think you know that his plans are as or more detailed than hers. I think Americans have proven they are more than ready to vote for a man, woman, black, or green person as long as they think he will move the country forward. As for me, Obama had me at "the American people will set the agenda in Washington, not the lobbyists."

[wrobert]

3. Those supporting Obama are stupid, mindless cultists, and thus their votes should be ignored.



As a resident of a State that Obama deemed 'irrelevant', I wonder how he thinks it feels now.

[wrobert]

Texas Dem Primary: (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/texas_democratic_presidential_primary)
Clinton 54% (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/texas_democratic_presidential_primary)
Obama 38% (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/texas_democratic_presidential_primary)


This is from Rasmussenreports.com. Some guys in Miami tell me that they have been following this so far and it has been dead on accurate.

[rapunzel]

As a resident of a State that Obama deemed 'irrelevant', I wonder how he thinks it feels now.

I didn't realize you were voting in the Democratic primary! I thought you were in the party that deemed you half relevant. :idontno:

[30A Skunkape]

Texas Dem Primary: (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/texas_democratic_presidential_primary)
Clinton 54% (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/texas_democratic_presidential_primary)
Obama 38% (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/texas_democratic_presidential_primary)


This is from Rasmussenreports.com. Some guys in Miami tell me that they have been following this so far and it has been dead on accurate.

I think Rasmu had Obama up over Hillary by double digits the morning of the New Hampshire primary. Proof will be in the pudding, or more likely the flan:wave:

[Mango]

I think Rasmu had Obama up over Hillary by double digits the morning of the New Hampshire primary. Proof will be in the pudding, or more likely the flan:wave:

Rasmu had Hillary at 46% and Obama at 41% on February 2 (http://rasmussenreports.com/older_content/home/most_recent_articles/most_recent_articles) in Alabama

Actual results: Hillary 42% / Obama 56%

That's a huge difference. :wave:

[wrobert]

I didn't realize you were voting in the Democratic primary! I thought you were in the party that deemed you half relevant. :idontno:

Rapunzel, he was talking about the people of Florida. I take that personally. Just because my party happens to occupy the People's House, has no real bearing. He insulted all of us when he said that the people of Florida were irrelevant. Agree or disagree with you, I still believe you, and every other citizen of this great State have earned the right to be relevant.

This is one point that I agree with Senator Clinton on. At least Senator Clinton came down here to thank all the hardworking people of Florida for their help. She did not call them irrelevant.

I need another PRIMARY. I am having partisan politic withdrawal. Guess I will go see my Mother.

[30A Skunkape]

Hillary showed herself in Florida only because Obama had just cleaned her clock in South Carolina. Her handlers knew she needed a nice little victory to deflate him a bit, so Florida, rich with grannies who are loyal to Hillary and never miss a day at the polls, was a natural stop. I don't think she actually campaigned here, she just showed up after the little old ladies did their civic duty. Rest assured that if things had been going according to schedule Hillary wouldn't have been hanging out in Florida either. Funny how things unfold when coronations are disrupted, isn't it?

[Beach Runner]

Come on over to Texas...they are both on TV more than Britney Spears! Hillary has been sporting muy sombreros. I have to admit that it is strange to be in this postion. Usually, by the time the first Tuesday in March rolls around the race is pretty much wrapped up!
Have you been inundated with pre-recorded phone calls asking you to vote for certain candidates? Right before the Georgia primary, we received so many calls that it was really annoying, mostly from the Romney camp. We didn't get a single phone call asking us to support Clinton or Obama. I guess when we registered to vote when we moved back to Georgia, we must have registered as Republicans -- it's been so long that I don't remember.

BTW I voted for Hillary, not a Republican candidate, because I don't think they'll ever do anything about health care. I am old enough to have experienced a lot of discrimination because I am a female. I am excited about the possibility of there being a woman president, especially one whom I feel is the most qualified due to her intelligence and experience. Yes, she has her faults -- no one is perfect.

[wrobert]

BTW I voted for Hillary, not a Republican candidate, because I don't think they'll ever do anything about health care. I am old enough to have experienced a lot of discrimination because I am a female. I am excited about the possibility of there being a woman president, especially one whom I feel is the most qualified due to her intelligence and experience. Yes, she has her faults -- no one is perfect.

While not agreeing with her policies on several issues, I do feel she is the most qualified candidate of the two. She is very smart, and her exposure to the issues over the years does give one pause when thinking of experience. Like a guy told me yesterday, "we need to elect the candidate with the biggest Roledex cause they are going to need every bit of help that they can find to get us through these next couple of years." In all of her years in politics, her Rolodex has got to be pretty big by now.

[Tootsie]

While not agreeing with her policies on several issues, I do feel she is the most qualified candidate of the two. She is very smart, and her exposure to the issues over the years does give one pause when thinking of experience. Like a guy told me yesterday, "we need to elect the candidate with the biggest Roledex cause they are going to need every bit of help that they can find to get us through these next couple of years." In all of her years in politics, her Rolodex has got to be pretty big by now.

yes, and you would love it if she were the dem nominee right? that way we can have at least 4 more years of bush conservative policy and insure that our country regresses evermore.

[wrobert]

yes, and you would love it if she were the dem nominee right? that way we can have at least 4 more years of bush conservative policy and insure that our country regresses evermore.

So you do not think that Hillary can win? While she has a bit more of an unfavorable that Obama, she is still polling better than McCain at the moment. I imagine when the blood letting gets started, no matter who the Dem nominee is, it will be a decidely uphill battle to keep them from winning.

[up4golf]

yes, and you would love it if she were the dem nominee right?
yes hillary is the republican party's choice the demacratic party's nomination. no question, execpt why ? they want to win and have a better chance against her. it is pretty simple but i think that is why.

[Tootsie]

yes hillary is the republican party's choice the demacratic party's nomination. no question, execpt why ? they want to win and have a better chance against her. it is pretty simple but i think that is why.


of course! it's been the plan all along. obama has put a little kink in the plan however...

[up4golf]

Rove is a genius!



it is just to bad he used it for evil not good.

[up4golf]

it looks like it is time for the butter.

[hnooe]

Hhhmmmmm......I guess not?:idontno::idontno::idontno:

[Beach Runner]

Go, Hillary!:clap:

I am woman, hear me roar,
In numbers too big to ignore.
And I know too much to go back an' pretend
'cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor.
No one's ever gonna keep me down again.

Oh yes I am wise,
But it's wisdom born of pain.
Yes, I've paid the price,
But look how much I gained.
If I have to, I can do anything.
I am strong (strong),
I am invincible (invincible),
I am woman!

[Cil]

Clinton Hints At Sharing Ticket With Obama (http://wcbstv.com/topstories/clinton.obama.ticket.2.669799.html)

[Arkiehawg]

Clinton Hints At Sharing Ticket With Obama (http://wcbstv.com/topstories/clinton.obama.ticket.2.669799.html)



I'm sure that she would "consider" Obama for her Vice President. ;-)

[Arkiehawg]

it looks like it is time for the butter.

Perhaps Crow would be better suited....

[Rita]

Clinton Hints At Sharing Ticket With Obama (http://wcbstv.com/topstories/clinton.obama.ticket.2.669799.html)

"Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton hinted at the possibility of a Democratic "dream ticket" with Sen. Barack Obama." .............

That certainly sounds like a dream ticket for her! He has the ability to energize and get people involved and would have the best chance to get the public behind him to force some changes in the way Washington is run. I don't think Clinton can do this (am not sure she would even try).

I can't see how she would help him too much on a Obama/Clinton ticket. Just have trouble seeing that.:blink:

.

[hnooe]

"Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton hinted at the possibility of a Democratic "dream ticket" with Sen. Barack Obama." .............

That certainly sounds like a dream ticket for her! He has the ability to energize and get people involved and would have the best chance to get the public behind him to force some changes in the way Washington is run. I don't think Clinton can do this (am not sure she would even try).

I can't see how she would help him too much on a Obama/Clinton ticket. Just have trouble seeing that.:blink:

.


I don't think Obama would want to be Vice president, he would want to be a trusted head advisor in that very unlikely scenario, at best, and not the "third" wheel (behind B.C.) if you get my drift...

[Rita]

I don't think Obama would want to be Vice president, he would want to be a trusted head advisor in that very unlikely scenario, at best, and not the "third" wheel (behind B.C.) if you get my drift...

agreed!

[wrobert]

agreed!


Think what you want. He will do what he is told when it is all said and done.

[rapunzel]

He would not run with Hillary on the ticket. He is about a different kind of politics. He rejects the Clinton triangulating style, there big state strategy,and their embracing of corporate special interests and lobbyists. Besides, he will finish ahead of her in delegates. Why would he settle for second place?

From David Plouffe:

The Math

Our projections show the most likely outcome of yesterday's elections will be that Hillary Clinton gained 187 delegates, and we gained 183.

That's a net gain of 4 delegates out of more than 370 delegates available from all the states that voted.

For comparison, that's less than half our net gain of 9 delegates from the District of Columbia alone. It's also less than our net gain of 8 from Nebraska, or 12 from Washington State. And it's considerably less than our net gain of 33 delegates from Georgia.

The task for the Clinton campaign yesterday was clear. In order to have a plausible path to the nomination, they needed to score huge delegate victories and cut into our lead.

They failed.

[Bdarg]

Think what you want. He will do what he is told when it is all said and done.

Either you are applying RNC thinking to democratic politics, or republican rank and file lack of thinking to the DNC.

You are forgetting the fundamental theory of the Democratic Party. As Will Rogers so eloquently stated it, “I am a member of no organized party. I am a Democrat."

I agree with Rapunzel.

[NoHall]

Let me go out on a limb and predict that this is going to get ugly. Hillary has been positioning herself for this moment for 30 years, enduring all the humiliation courtesy of Bill, waiting, waiting, waiting. This is her moment, in her mind. There is no way she is going to go quietly into the sunset. No way. It is like a team getting to the Super Bowl, falling behind by two touchdowns in the fourth quarter and quiting. Not going to happen-this is Hillary's Super Bowl and she and her handlers are going to do whatever it takes to bring Obama down.

And the Democrats won't have a chance if she gets the nomination. Between votes for McCain, and votes against Hillary, it will be over before it starts.

[goofer44]

Think what you want. He will do what he is told when it is all said and done.
:yikes:

That is ridiculous and I might add borders almost on racism,

[Arkiehawg]

Besides, he will finish ahead of her in delegates. Why would he settle for second place?

Neither will have enough delegates to "put them over the top". Popular vote shows less than a 1% difference, delegate count will be within 2% est. The supers will then be the key....Regardless of those that believe the supers will go with the winner of the popular/delegate lead, that is not a given by any means ESPECIALLY with a stastically deadheat.

He may not have a choice if he plans on being around Pennsylvania Ave.

[ASH]

Read this entire thread trying to find real answers to way too many questions. This is the first time ever that I truly don't see enough good in any of the candidates, Republican or Democrat to want to vote for any of them. I have always not been either party, but actually reading all of the issues and decided based on my own set of values. I see problems with all three camps from the war to healthcare to the economy to immigration that none of them will do all the right things. What does one do when this happens. Choose the lesser of the evils. I really don't want to have to do this. It is truly a sad day...:idontno:

[scooterbug44]

And the Democrats won't have a chance if she gets the nomination. Between votes for McCain, and votes against Hillary, it will be over before it starts.

I'll wait until closer to the election to decide who to vote for, but it will be a Sowal ice skating party in hell before I cast a vote for a ticket with Hilary on it - even if she's the VP!

[ASH]

Scooterbug, you have a fairly strong opinion there. LOL!
She scares me too...on the surface. Can you tell me a couple main ticket reasons why you feel the way you do. I am not bantering. I am listening.

[Tootsie]

And the Democrats won't have a chance if she gets the nomination. Between votes for McCain, and votes against Hillary, it will be over before it starts.

not at all sure about this. I mean, how many people really want the current policy on iraq and everything else to continue? I think people will still be voting for change if hill gets the nomination. She's not my first pick, but she is my second. The Dems and Independents are really coming out to vote and I think this trend will continue.

[ASH]

Tootsie, are you suggesting that the current world condition may be based on too many people not going to the polls in the past and have allowed the present condition to get to this point?

[scooterbug44]

Scooterbug, you have a fairly strong opinion there. LOL!
She scares me too...on the surface. Can you tell me a couple main ticket reasons why you feel the way you do. I am not bantering. I am listening.

All of the reasons would give me carpal tunnel, but basically I do not think she has the basic integrity, trust level, ability to inspire, people/diplomatic skills, or proper perspective for the job. For all that she touts her experience level, I don't think she does well legislating.

The US is heading into some rocky waters IMO and we need a leader, not a politician in every 4 letter sense of the word.

Plus, on a personal level, she only gets a 1 (out of 5) on the Scooterbug gut instinct scale. That's a rare score on par w/ my reaction to the picture of the sex offender they just caught.

[ASH]

Thank you for a gut response. Good one too when you consider the options the Democratic party has for "leader". I don't know that either would be up for (experience) what to do with a full blown world war scenario should a rogue nuke actually go off somewhere in the near future. Not that McCain would, but he does have more experience there.

My guts are probably the root to my issues that I ask about. Nobody is giving me a warm fuzzy feeling all over.

[tistheseason]

Read this entire thread trying to find real answers to way too many questions. This is the first time ever that I truly don't see enough good in any of the candidates, Republican or Democrat to want to vote for any of them. I have always not been either party, but actually reading all of the issues and decided based on my own set of values. I see problems with all three camps from the war to healthcare to the economy to immigration that none of them will do all the right things. What does one do when this happens. Choose the lesser of the evils. I really don't want to have to do this. It is truly a sad day...:idontno:

That's funny. This is the first time in several elections that I HAVEN'T felt this way. I guess we just see things differently!

[ASH]

Again, I am listening. You seem well settled in your decision. Who and exactly why I would welcome hearing. Thanks.

[Tootsie]

Tootsie, are you suggesting that the current world condition may be based on too many people not going to the polls in the past and have allowed the present condition to get to this point?

what??? no such suggestion here. but I am suggesting that many polls report that democrats are voting in record numbers. and I'm reading a lot about republican crossovers. many republicans are unhappy with the present state of the union, the war, and with the gop candidate/nominee. and don't forget about "W". he's still here. and millions upon millions are sick to death of being sick to death.

[ASH]

I hear you Tootsie. I voted for that guy and now am wondering if that was the best move after 4 years. I am personally torn on the war because it is difficult to decifer what is true when listening to any media reporting on the war as they all seem to have their own personal agenda spun into the report. OK, so it maybe wasn't you personally, but it seems to suggest a lax country now paying for staying home the last election or two while the world went to hell in a handbasket. Wonder who is really to blame. Present in politics or a lazy country. After all, leadership was voted in.

[goofer44]

:yikes:

That is ridiculous and I might add borders almost on racism,

WaltonGop
I apologize for the above remark. I had too much sugar the last few days !! I know you are not racist but I think your choice of words was akward.

[wrobert]

WaltonGop
I apologize for the above remark. I had too much sugar the last few days !! I know you are not racist but I think your choice of words was akward.

Never really paid it any attention until you said something. Hillary is going to be happy with the offer. This is the way I see it, and I have not gotten it right yet so keep that in mind. Dr. Dean is going to drag them into a smoke filled room and tell Hillary she gets to be President for four years, Obama is the VP. Then she will step down and Obama will get elected and be President for the next eight.

Just look at the new voters in Texas alone. 44% growth in first time voters. And in exit polls these people overwhelmingly state that they will not be back in November if Obama is not on the ticket. He has to be on the ticket for the Democrats to have a chance. His positives will far overcome Hillary's negatives.

I know, based on his books that I have listened too, that he is calling for something different. But I also get the impression that he knows that you can not change a thing from the outside. This gets him in a perfect position to get things going in the right direction.

I also do not, at this time, think that McCain/Crist could overcome a Clinton/Obama ticket.

[Tootsie]

walton - I could live with this scenario. I would like to see Obama elected now, but sometimes we must wait for good things.

[up4golf]

Perhaps Crow would be better suited....
fresh bread right out of the oven. butter is back in the frig. can't wait to see how it plays out now.

[aleonard]

I know, based on his books that I have listened too, that he is calling for something different. But I also get the impression that he knows that you can not change a thing from the outside. This gets him in a perfect position to get things going in the right direction.

I agree. :cool:

[Mango]

Personally I do not see an Obama/Clinton ticket. She's been talking it up, but it is only to her benefit. Obama does not need Clinton on the ticket to win IMHO. The Clinton base of elderly people will vote along party lines anyway I supect. Somone like Sen. Webb of Virginia or a moderate Southern would be an ideal Veep, Webb being my first choice if Obama.
He served in Nam, he was Secty. of the Navy under Reagan and has 2 children serving in the military. Oh, and Va. is a Red State. :biggrin:

[wrobert]

Personally I do not see an Obama/Clinton ticket. She's been talking it up, but it is only to her benefit. Obama does not need Clinton on the ticket to win IMHO. The Clinton base of elderly people will vote along party lines anyway I supect. Somone like Sen. Webb of Virginia or a moderate Southern would be an ideal Veep, Webb being my first choice if Obama.
He served in Nam, he was Secty. of the Navy under Reagan and has 2 children serving in the military. Oh, and Va. is a Red State. :biggrin:


And this repays the Clintons for years of loyal service and fundraising for the DNC how?

[Mango]

And this repays the Clintons for years of loyal service and fundraising for the DNC how?

:funn:

[scooterbug44]

Mango! Your 'tar! :eek:

I would really love it if this election was about high participation rates and the issues instead of "rewarding folks for years of campaign $."

My fear is a legacy of choosing the lesser of two evils, voting party lines, and politricks has disillusioned many voters and most of my generation.

IMO, Hilary represents all that is wrong w/ the current state of politricks, McCain is old and a bit of a hawk, but has proven himself, has integrity, and represents reform, and Obama we are going to vote for because he inspires people and that is so refreshing we'll take a chance - especially after 8 years of Dumbya!

[TooFarTampa]

Mango! Your 'tar! :eek:

I would really love it if this election was about high participation rates and the issues instead of "rewarding folks for years of campaign $."

My fear is a legacy of choosing the lesser of two evils, voting party lines, and politricks has disillusioned many voters and most of my generation.

IMO, Hilary represents all that is wrong w/ the current state of politricks, McCain is old and a bit of a hawk, but has proven himself, has integrity, and represents reform, and Obama we are going to vote for because he inspires people and that is so refreshing we'll take a chance - especially afetr 8 years of Dumbya!

From Dumbya to Kumbaya!
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b106/dancinwdeer/KumBayaYaa.gif

[30A Skunkape]

And this repays the Clintons for years of loyal service and fundraising for the DNC how?

WGOP -- you need to read up on the war in the DNC between Howard Dean and the Clintonites. There are pretty much two parties right now. There is the DLC, and there is the DNC. The Clinton's fought Howard Dean's chairmanship tooth and nail, and had planned to unseat him the minute she won the nomination. They are fighting to keep all the resources in the swing states and letting the party rot on the vine at the local and state level in 2/3 of the states.

Hillary's scorched earth policy is the result of knowing if she goes down, the DLC goes down...the machine she and Bill built, the McAuliffes and Carvilles who've sold their souls to the Clintons...they all go down. That's why she would rather tear the party apart and alienate all the new voters drawn to the party. That's why she would imply Barack Obama was a Muslim on 60 Minutes this past Sunday, and throw an unsubstantiated NAFTA rumor to the press like a piece of meat on Monday, and release pictures of Obama's step family or Obama in African dress on a diplomatic visit to Matt Drudge. She will do anything to win because to do otherwise she will lose all the power they've spent their lives trying to accumulate.

The Clinton's foreign policy was a disaster. They squandered the greatest peace and goodwill any of us will see in our lifetimes. They backed down and left bin Laden in Mogadishu when their poll numbers dropped. They ignored Rwanda. They left Yeltsin to rot on the vine in Russia and paved the way for the rise of Putin. They govern by polls. They seek power for power's sake.

[Tootsie]

WGOP -- you need to read up on the war in the DNC between Howard Dean and the Clintonites. There are pretty much two parties right now. There is the DLC, and there is the DNC. The Clinton's fought Howard Dean's chairmanship tooth and nail, and had planned to unseat him the minute she won the nomination. They are fighting to keep all the resources in the swing states and letting the party rot on the vine at the local and state level in 2/3 of the states.

Hillary's scorched earth policy is the result of knowing if she goes down, the DLC goes down...the machine she and Bill built, the McAuliffes and Carvilles who've sold their souls to the Clintons...they all go down. That's why she would rather tear the party apart and alienate all the new voters drawn to the party. That's why she would imply Barack Obama was a Muslim on 60 Minutes this past Sunday, and throw an unsubstantiated NAFTA rumor to the press like a piece of meat on Monday, and release pictures of Obama's step family or Obama in African dress on a diplomatic visit to Matt Drudge. She will do anything to win because to do otherwise she will lose all the power they've spent their lives trying to accumulate.

The Clinton's foreign policy was a disaster. They squandered the greatest peace and goodwill any of us will see in our lifetimes. They backed down and left bin Laden in Mogadishu when their poll numbers dropped. They ignored Rwanda. They left Yeltsin to rot on the vine in Russia and paved the way for the rise of Putin. They govern by polls. They seek power for power's sake.

sorry, skunkape, I can't buy your scoop on the clinton presidency. imo, those were the days (except for the constant attack & divisiveness of the anti-clinton group who were not so concerned about america's welfare). if you want to talk about squandering peace and goodwill in our lifetime - you need look no further than the current administration. I cannot believe there could be worse than that. not in the history of our country in fact.
talk about a group of male power mongers.. fear mongers.. war mongers.. liars. the bush regime.
I do not say that the bill clinton made all the right decisions in his foreign policy. but I do say that he passed on most issues. leadership was evident.Bush has chosen the wrong path on every single issue. every single one. he has failed the test of leadership.

[30A Skunkape]

sorry, skunkape, I can't buy your scoop on the clinton presidency. imo, those were the days (except for the constant attack & divisiveness of the anti-clinton group who were not so concerned about america's welfare). if you want to talk about squandering peace and goodwill in our lifetime - you need look no further than the current administration. I cannot believe there could be worse than that. not in the history of our country in fact.
talk about a group of male power mongers.. fear mongers.. war mongers.. liars. the bush regime.
I do not say that the bill clinton made all the right decisions in his foreign policy. but I do say that he passed on most issues. leadership was evident.Bush has chosen the wrong path on every single issue. every single one. he has failed the test of leadership.

You are debating something composed by a nom de plume:wave:;-)

[Tootsie]

You are debating something composed by a nom de plume:wave:;-)

ha!!!! I can't believe it.

[Arkiehawg]

That's why she would imply Barack Obama was a Muslim on 60 Minutes this past Sunday, and throw an unsubstantiated NAFTA rumor to the press like a piece of meat on Monday, and release pictures of Obama's step family or Obama in African dress on a diplomatic visit to Matt Drudge. She will do anything to win because to do otherwise she will lose all the power they've spent their lives trying to accumulate.

Lot of air up there Skunky.....better lay off the meds.

"Imply Obama was Muslim on 60 Minutes"

In fact, Clinton's first three words in response to CBS correspondent Steve Kroft's question -- "You don't believe that Senator Obama is a Muslim?" -- were, "Of course not." Additionally, when Kroft again asked, "You don't believe that he's a Muslim?" Clinton said: "No. No. Why would I?" Further, Clinton made clear at the end of the exchange with Kroft that she was likening the rumors about Obama's religion to false rumors about her: "Look, I have been the target of so many ridiculous rumors. I have a great deal of sympathy for anybody who gets, you know, smeared with the kind of rumors that go on all the time."

Explain to me where there is implication in these quotes?

"Throw an unsubstantiated NAFTA rumor to the press"

Fact is that a Canadian Media Outlet broke the story not the Clinton Camp

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/29/canadian-paper-stands-by-_n_89177.html

"Release pictures of Obama's stepfamily or Obama in African Dress"

I haven't seen any truth to that on any media outlet. Where is your facts to support this? In fact, it has been on the internet for months.

http://bigheaddc.com/2008/02/25/drudge-falsely-accuses-clinton-of-obama-photo-ties/

BTW....Matt Drudge was the one who reported the Monica Lewinsky relationship....I'm sure that the Clintons are best buds with him and would definitely go to him with a "Breaking Story" :cool:


Now you may continue your "factual attack" on those ole' hillbillies....;-)

[BeachSiO2]

Anybody see that the local Okaloosa County Dem leader wants the earlier vote to be counted? She's on the HRC team. What a mess :roll:

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/article/12606

[rapunzel]

Funny, the Walton County Dem Party leader won't return my phone calls.

Did anyone see Crist on CNN/Situation Room just now? They are all clamoring for a primary paid for by the DNC. The DNC agrees to pay for a caucus. They're basically demanding the DNC blow it's entire budget on an economic stimulus package for Florida in a format that would help Hillary Clinton. All I can do is roll my eyes and hope the rank and file Democrats see through it...

[BeachSiO2]

Funny, the Walton County Dem Party leader won't return my phone calls.

Did anyone see Crist on CNN/Situation Room just now? They are all clamoring for a primary paid for by the DNC. The DNC agrees to pay for a caucus. They're basically demanding the DNC blow it's entire budget on an economic stimulus package for Florida in a format that would help Hillary Clinton. All I can do is roll my eyes and hope the rank and file Democrats see through it...

I agree those Rep's are crafty. It would have been better if the DNC "leadership" would have given Florida and Michigan 1/2 their delegates to begin with instead of taking the position they did.

You know they could cut down on the costs if they made everyone who voted, Dem or Rep, pass the citizenship test that immigrants have to pass to become a citizen. Does that sound too radical to have all voters have at least a basic understanding of the USA?

[rapunzel]

Lot of air up there Skunky.....better lay off the meds.

"Imply Obama was Muslim on 60 Minutes"

In fact, Clinton's first three words in response to CBS correspondent Steve Kroft's question -- "You don't believe that Senator Obama is a Muslim?" -- were, "Of course not." Additionally, when Kroft again asked, "You don't believe that he's a Muslim?" Clinton said: "No. No. Why would I?" Further, Clinton made clear at the end of the exchange with Kroft that she was likening the rumors about Obama's religion to false rumors about her: "Look, I have been the target of so many ridiculous rumors. I have a great deal of sympathy for anybody who gets, you know, smeared with the kind of rumors that go on all the time."

Explain to me where there is implication in these quotes?

"Throw an unsubstantiated NAFTA rumor to the press"

Fact is that a Canadian Media Outlet broke the story not the Clinton Camp

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/29/canadian-paper-stands-by-_n_89177.html

"Release pictures of Obama's stepfamily or Obama in African Dress"

I haven't seen any truth to that on any media outlet. Where is your facts to support this? In fact, it has been on the internet for months.

http://bigheaddc.com/2008/02/25/drudge-falsely-accuses-clinton-of-obama-photo-ties/

BTW....Matt Drudge was the one who reported the Monica Lewinsky relationship....I'm sure that the Clintons are best buds with him and would definitely go to him with a "Breaking Story" :cool:


Now you may continue your "factual attack" on those ole' hillbillies....;-)






60 Minutes : Mixed reaction: Did Clinton hedge on Obama rumor?
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/60_Minutes_tackles_Muslim_smear_aimed_0303.html


The NAFTA rumor had been completely debunked but she kept talking about it and running ads about it the whole time, please watch this and see if you don't feel someone played extremely dirty in Ohio. Everyone needs to watch this....
http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/vsu/wmv-hi/macdonald-obama-memo080303.wmv

As for why I say the Clinton campaign released those pictures, I say that because Matt Drudge stated that when he published the pictures.

As for the foreign policy mistakes, I still blame the right for going after the Clintons on every move and attacking whenever they were vulnerable whether they were doing the right thing or not. I had a really close friend who was in Mogadishu, and I think what happened there shows the problem of a President constantly in "fight mode" rather than "lead mode." Same with the air strikes on bin Laden in Sudan right after the Monica Lewinsky affair was revealed. I think the inclination of how to react was correct, but when you govern by a tiny margin and you are constantly battling the opposition, you miss opportunities. When you are constantly trying to retain power, you back away from the tough decisions. A leader does the right thing even if it's not immediately the popular thing. If it's the right thing, you can win people over when you have time to explain.

Hillary Clinton authorized the invasion of Iraq. She supports Bush's push to elevate tensions with Iran. She tells Canada to take her statements on NAFTA with a grain of salt. If she gets the nomination, she will be saying totally different things in the general election, all the while telling Democrats to take it with a grain of salt because she has to say these things to get elected. I can't support that anymore, because my blinders were ripped off in South Carolina.

[Arkiehawg]

As for why I say the Clinton campaign released those pictures, I say that because Matt Drudge stated that when he published the pictures.

That right there shoots holes in your conspiracy attitude. You don't believe the Canadian TV that is standing behind their NAFTA article even though there is no proof for or against it....yet you stand behind a reporter who HATES the Clintons yet shows no evidence that he received the pictures from her group.

Do you really believe that Obama is as saintly as he appears? Remember HE SURVIVED CHICAGO POLITICS. You don't do that by being all sweet and innocent.....

[Tootsie]

I gotcha punzy and agree completely with your last analysis of clinton presidency. I am beginning to question why HRC keeps going on and on about how she's the experienced leader ready to lead from day one of her taking office as president. what in the hail makes her more experienced or ready for the job? and yes, arkiehawg, obama is saintly. I hear it in his words, see it in his heart and on his face, and I also hear it from quite a few snowbirds I've met here in sowal from Illinois. he may be too saintly for the job. but I think its worth giving him a shot. he's shown me in how he runs his campaign that he knows how to hire the best people to help him get the job done. and to do it with class. this is what America needs more of asap.

[rapunzel]

That right there shoots holes in your conspiracy attitude. You don't believe the Canadian TV that is standing behind their NAFTA article even though there is no proof for or against it....yet you stand behind a reporter who HATES the Clintons yet shows no evidence that he received the pictures from her group.

Do you really believe that Obama is as saintly as he appears? Remember HE SURVIVED CHICAGO POLITICS. You don't do that by being all sweet and innocent.....

What? I'm sorry, but I don't follow.

Did you bother to watch the video? CBC states unequivocally that 1) the conservative Harper government took the incident of a meeting that was requested by the Canadians and wrote a briefing memo about the meeting that had no resemblance to the notes the diplomat who held the meeting made. They then leaked the fictitious memo to the CBC, and the Clinton campaign pounced on it, filmed attack ads, and implied that Obama was just like her -- a scheming politician. She did exactly what the conservatives had hoped -- weakened Obama. And 2) the CBC report states that the Clinton campaign did actually request a meeting with the Canadian Ambassador and told him to take her words on NAFTA 'with a grain of salt" because that is what she had to say in the Midwest during the primaries.

As for Drudge, he is despicable. He does put slime out there. He does wallow in the muck, which is why the pictures were given to him. I'm sure no legitimate outlet would have published that smear. But, he posted plain as day that her aides had given them to him, and her campaign didn't deny it at first, and only later did Hillary say that if someone did it they did so without her knowledge. He is sleazy, but he's usually factual.

We all know what the Clintons represent. I was glad for their fighting attitude when there were no others that could compete with the Republican machine. Now, though, we have a choice. We have two people that might be able to win in November if they don't tear each other apart as the Republicans and their Canadian equivalents manipulate a drawn out primary battle. I for one choose the path we have not yet taken....I choose the path that promises to try to do more than 50%+1, that tries to move beyond the Rove/Carville bickering and manipulation of an electorate they have no respect for -- an electorate they view as cattle to be herded, not people to be inspired and empowered. We can continue to fight in the mud with the Republicans, or we can rise above them. I choose to rise. I choose to believe. I choose Barack Obama.

[JUL]

http://www.superherodesigns.com/journal/wicked_witch.jpg
Yhis is so Grayt!!!!:floor::floor::floor:

[JUL]

I gotcha punzy and agree completely with your last analysis of clinton presidency. I am beginning to question why HRC keeps going on and on about how she's the experienced leader ready to lead from day one of her taking office as president. what in the hail makes her more experienced or ready for the job? and yes, arkiehawg, obama is saintly. I hear it in his words, see it in his heart and on his face, and I also hear it from quite a few snowbirds I've met here in sowal from Illinois. he may be too saintly for the job. but I think its worth giving him a shot. he's shown me in how he runs his campaign that he knows how to hire the best people to help him get the job done. and to do it with class. this is what America needs more of asap.



He has my vote......I'm tired of the old guys gettin the job!

[Tootsie]

He has my vote......I'm tired of the old guys gettin the job!

yeah, and dumbfarts.
edit: sorry, I really read your post above wrong. I thought you said "old farts". oh well, I'll keep my response as is.

[rapunzel]

I gotcha punzy and agree completely with your last analysis of clinton presidency. I am beginning to question why HRC keeps going on and on about how she's the experienced leader ready to lead from day one of her taking office as president. what in the hail makes her more experienced or ready for the job? and yes, arkiehawg, obama is saintly. I hear it in his words, see it in his heart and on his face, and I also hear it from quite a few snowbirds I've met here in sowal from Illinois. he may be too saintly for the job. but I think its worth giving him a shot. he's shown me in how he runs his campaign that he knows how to hire the best people to help him get the job done. and to do it with class. this is what America needs more of asap.

This is so true. I was listening to Susan Rice on MSNBC last night...she is so impressive. I also just started reading Samantha Power's book. She is so fantastic, so insightful and truthful. For those I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar people, I want you to imagine a Susan Rice Secretary of State, Samantha Power National Security Advisor combination. Two amazing, self made women. Tough, strong, smart, and not afraid to be feminine.

Best of all, they understand the world as it is today...not as it used to be. Samantha Power understands the world in a way Madelaine Albright and Hal Holbrook can't, because they've never lived and travelled among the regular people in those regions since the dynamics changed in the 90's.

Toots -- I'll have to pass along the book when I'm done....

[wrobert]

Funny, the Walton County Dem Party leader won't return my phone calls....


Come to the right. I will call you back. :D

[Tootsie]

Come to the right. I will call you back. :D

maybe when hell freezes over. but probably not.:wave:

[up4golf]

obama's minister might carry hillary to eventual victory

[Tootsie]

obama's minister might carry hillary to eventual victory

the senator (obama) seems to be using the issue to address some real issues - like race in america. we'll see how it pans out.

[Linda]

I've heard that no matter what happens going forward in the upcoming primaries that there is no way that Hillary can catch up and win the nomination unless the super delegates give it to her. I can't imagine that the super delegates woud go against the popular vote and delegate count. Even with the current Obama/Wright controversary it seems that he will be the nominee. I just wonder how this will affect Obama's chances in the general election. It doesn't seem that the story is going away any time soon - even after his speech this morning.

[hnooe]

obama's minister might carry hillary to eventual victory


That is a sad state of affairs for a man of the cloth to hold that type of power--I think I now would prefer an aetheist or a "rationalist" to run for President, let's really seperate Church and State!

[John R]

only 30 superdelegates?? :yikes:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1157/1307917452_17cc25f45b_o.jpg

[Rita]

only 30 superdelegates?? :yikes:


In December, an Associated Press tally had Hillary ahead by 108 superdelegates. In February her lead was down to 87, and it now stands at just 30.

.

[Bob]

WGOP -- you need to read up on the war in the DNC between Howard Dean and the Clintonites. There are pretty much two parties right now. There is the DLC, and there is the DNC. The Clinton's fought Howard Dean's chairmanship tooth and nail, and had planned to unseat him the minute she won the nomination. They are fighting to keep all the resources in the swing states and letting the party rot on the vine at the local and state level in 2/3 of the states.

Hillary's scorched earth policy is the result of knowing if she goes down, the DLC goes down...the machine she and Bill built, the McAuliffes and Carvilles who've sold their souls to the Clintons...they all go down. That's why she would rather tear the party apart and alienate all the new voters drawn to the party. That's why she would imply Barack Obama was a Muslim on 60 Minutes this past Sunday, and throw an unsubstantiated NAFTA rumor to the press like a piece of meat on Monday, and release pictures of Obama's step family or Obama in African dress on a diplomatic visit to Matt Drudge. She will do anything to win because to do otherwise she will lose all the power they've spent their lives trying to accumulate.

The Clinton's foreign policy was a disaster. They squandered the greatest peace and goodwill any of us will see in our lifetimes. They backed down and left bin Laden in Mogadishu when their poll numbers dropped. They ignored Rwanda. They left Yeltsin to rot on the vine in Russia and paved the way for the rise of Putin. They govern by polls. They seek power for power's sake.i seek brownies for brownie's sake....

[traderx]

The older I become, the more I understand we live in a non-linear world. In all probability, Obama will be the Democratic candidate, however, while I am in no way a Hillbilly fan, Bill Clinton is likely the greatest political strategist of our time. I would not county Hillary out just yet.

[Rita]

Newest Pennsylvania poll out today - Obama has cut into Clinton's lead - Clinton 50% to Obama 44% according to most recent Quinnipac University poll.

"Obama is not only building on his own constituencies, but is taking away voters in Senator Hillary Clinton's strongest areas -- whites including white women, voters in the key swing Philadelphia suburbs and those who say the economy is the most important issue in the campaign," said Clay Richards, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

In March it was a 12 point lead
Last week 9 point lead
This week 6 point lead

Clinton was suppose to win PA by double digits, similar to how she was suppose to win TX with double digits. Still plenty of time left for things to change but this is significant imo. :D


.

[Tootsie]

thanks for the info rita. very interesting. they are working their little tails off up that way.

[Mango]

thanks for the info rita. very interesting. they are working their little tails off up that way.
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[Chickpea]

Newest Pennsylvania poll out today - Obama has cut into Clinton's lead - Clinton 50% to Obama 44% according to most recent Quinnipac University poll.

"Obama is not only building on his own constituencies, but is taking away voters in Senator Hillary Clinton's strongest areas -- whites including white women, voters in the key swing Philadelphia suburbs and those who say the economy is the most important issue in the campaign," said Clay Richards, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

In March it was a 12 point lead
Last week 9 point lead
This week 6 point lead

Clinton was suppose to win PA by double digits, similar to how she was suppose to win TX with double digits. Still plenty of time left for things to change but this is significant imo. :D


.

Let's just hope that the media gives her a fair shot in the next couple of weeks and that they do not victimize her in any way - because look at the way women rallied around her in NH and Texas after it was perceived by many that she was being treated unfairly - nothing like a woman scorned to get other women go on the offensive to show support!

[seacrestkristi]

She is in the lead!:clap:I hope she's far from toast time. I still hope she's our next President esp. since so far she's won the people's popular vote. If someone is winning the popular vote, I don't see any reason for them to throw in the towel. Just doesn't make any sense to me. Money does buy a lot of things though, and supposedly Obama's got more money now. Who knows? Goooo Hillary!!!

[Margarita]

She is in the lead!:clap:I hope she's far from toast time. I still hope she's our next President esp. since so far she's won the people's popular vote. If someone is winning the popular vote, I don't see any reason for them to throw in the towel. Just doesn't make any sense to me. Money does buy a lot of things though, and supposedly Obama's got more money now. Who knows? Goooo Hillary!!!

I just heard on tv that if the democratic nomination process had more winner take all states and less proportional distribution of the delegates that the nominee would have already been chosen and that it would have been Hllary. Seacrestkristi - You have got to be one of the most optimistic, positve, glass half full people I know - it will be interesting to see how everything plays out. Good luck to you :D

[seacrestkristi]

I just heard on tv that if the democratic nomination process had more winner take all states and less proportional distribution of the delegates that the nominee would have already been chosen and that it would have been Hllary. Seacrestkristi - You have got to be one of the most optimistic, positve, glass half full people I know - it will be interesting to see how everything plays out. Good luck to you :D

Thank you for the real facts and also the compliment, Margarita. :wub: That woman has been torn apart and is still standing calmly. :cool: She is the change I wanna see.

[Rita]

.......... I still hope she's our next President esp. since so far she's won the people's popular vote. .............

Even if you throw in Michigan (where Obama took his name off the ballot so as to follow the DNC rules) and Florida (where Obama had little name recognition that early in the campaign - and agreed not to campaign) the popular vote comes out slightly favoring Obama as of this week.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/gulfwindsway/2388769294_ca3c92df3a_m.jpg

[seacrestkristi]

What is your source please? Everyone knows Hillary has won the popular vote. Also to say people didn't recognize Obama's name in Florida..... please. Give me a break. He didn't even care about Florida's vote. Good luck to your candidate.

[Margarita]

This is an interesting web site showing how the electoral vote looks at this point in time. Since the electoral vote is actualy how a president is chosen I find this more interesting to track and a better indicator of who has a better chance to win the general election.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

[Rita]

What is your source please? Everyone knows Hillary has won the popular vote. Also to say people didn't recognize Obama's name in Florida..... please. Give me a break. He didn't even care about Florida's vote. Good luck to your candidate.

Sources and Methodology below:
Real Clear Politics
Washington Secretary of State

Obama, Clinton and the others were asked by the DNC not to campaign in FL because of FL breaking the rules by holding their primary earlier than allowed. You can say Obama didn't care about FL if you choose, but he lived up to his agreement. It would have served him better if he had been allowed to campaign. Look what his been able to do when campaigning in other Clinton strongholds when he has campaign.

Thank your lucky stars he didn't campaign there Kristi! :biggrin: ;-)
Just yankin' your chain. Keep on backing your candidate, but saying he didn't care about FL is forgetting that he had given his word to the DNC and he kept it. I admire that but wish Floridians had gotten the chance to have him campaign ferociously there.

.

[Cheering472]

What is your source please? Everyone knows Hillary has won the popular vote. Also to say people didn't recognize Obama's name in Florida..... please. Give me a break. He didn't even care about Florida's vote. Good luck to your candidate.

Kristi here's another source for the current popular vote count. www.realclearpolitics.com

[jdarg]

Kristi here's another source for the current popular vote count. www.realclearpolitics.com (http://www.realclearpolitics.com)


I love this site- have it bookmarked. Very comprehensive- thanks Cheering.

[Cheering472]

I love this site- have it bookmarked. Very comprehensive- thanks Cheering.

You're welcome. I love it too.

[jdarg]

It's a little early, but check out all of the poll results for Obama/McCain:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html#polls

[Rita]

Kristi here's another source for the current popular vote count. www.realclearpolitics.com

From the above link:
Obama - Clinton
Popular Vote 49.5 - 46.9 Obama +2.6
Popular Vote (w/FL) 48.5 - 47.1 Obama +1.4

What I posted in an earlier post included WA, MI and FL. (with these states included the numbers don't reflect reality - imo - make it appear a closer count, but even with them thrown in Obama holds a slight lead.)

.

[Cheering472]

It's a little early, but check out all of the poll results for Obama/McCain:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html#polls

Amazing since Obama is still running the primary while McCain is already able to run the presidential race with his primary decided.

[hnooe]

3 more for barrack obama. does hillary have the preception of being the loser now ?

Gosh, I guess she is now seen as a fighter..hmmm maybe in this context she is even winning over some undecideds? Time will tell.

[rapunzel]

Interesting look at Clinton's support in today's NYT --

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u101/kubla000/tree.jpg

More on electability http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/24/us/politics/24clinton.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[30A Skunkape]

That chart is worhtless because it doesn't count Michigan or Florida:roll:

[hnooe]

Gosh, I guess she is now seen as a fighter..hmmm maybe in this context she is even winning over some undecideds? Time will tell.

hnooe 2000.. You are an idiot!!!--Were you crazy to even insinuate this woman is a fighter--SHE IS A DIRTY FIGHTER--YES!! I am glad you finally came to your senses!:clap:

[goofer44]

:lolabove: congrats !!! It takes guts to publicly admit a mistake. you are the best !!

[Beach Runner]

CNN just announced that Mrs. Clinton is bowing out tonight.

[BeachSiO2]

And for your viewing pleasure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHCL6-GqyRk&feature=related

By the way, if the Secret Service or any others come across this I MEAN IT FIGURATIVELY from a political standpoint.

[Mermaid]

Is Hillary toast? Apparently Germans in Dusseldorf think so, judging from this parade float:

http://www.redeyeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/hillz.jpg

[pgurney]

CNN just announced that Mrs. Clinton is bowing out tonight.

Now they are reporting that the reports of her conceding are "100% incorrect."

[kathydwells]

Sen. Hillary Clinton's Campaign Chairman Terry Mcauliffe Disputes Ap Report That She Will Concede Tonight, Saying It's '100 Percent Incorrect'.

[hnooe]

I guess she is Toast for 2008, hmmmm, maybe a run in 2012 if McCain wins? Actually she'd make a great Supreme Ct. Justice.

[BeachSiO2]

Sen. Hillary Clinton's Campaign Chairman Terry Mcauliffe Disputes Ap Report That She Will Concede Tonight, Saying It's '100 Percent Incorrect'.

Ok then, how about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ag8J2NMYmc&feature=related

I know what my answer would be for her :biggrin:

[Beach Runner]

Sen. Hillary Clinton's Campaign Chairman Terry Mcauliffe Disputes Ap Report That She Will Concede Tonight, Saying It's '100 Percent Incorrect'.
Apparently CNN reported this from an AP news report which the Clinton campaign is calling false.:idontno:

[Rita]

Is Hillary toast? Apparently Germans in Dusseldorf think so, judging from this parade float:

http://www.redeyeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/hillz.jpg

.
:floor:...This has been a rough morning - trying to keep my tea off the keyboard!


That is a very artistic float. Is is for real? Great work!

.

[30A Skunkape]

In response to the original question posed in the title of this thread, YES!!!
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D912NTSO0&show_article=1

[BeachSiO2]

Does anybody know why they are making such a big deal about the "jackalope" Michelle Obama/Whitey/Trinity Church tape now? It seems like it has really caught fire the last couple of days.

First , it doesn't seem like it really exists hence the jackalope reference. Secondly if it does exist, shouldn't Clinton have already used it instead of bringing it up too late. Third, if the repubs have it then wouldn't it stay hidden until after O's nomination. Once again it all starts with my first question, but it seems like the timing is off for all involved.

[Tootsie]

a toast! to hilary for working so hard to serve her country, giving it all she had, motivating millions of women and others to vote, and I hope she continues to serve our country in the years to come. I think she is one of the few who really gets it. we do need her to stick around, imo.

[scooterbug44]

I hope that Hillary has a long and distinguished career in the Senate - that is her niche IMO.

[NoHall]

All I can say is that if she is VP, Obama need not worry about being assassinated. :blink: