Would SoWal Be Prepared for a 4-5 Hurricane?

[Paula]

I have a tendency for worrying and planning in advance so that's what's motivating this email. Out of curiosity, how do you think SoWal would fare after a major hurricane like Katrina? For example:

1. What parts would be likely to be most and least harmed by wind/rain (For example, it makes sense that people who aren't on the beach, who are on dunes will fare better than people who are on the beach and on flat land -- Kurt gave some idea of which areas are most at risk.)? What, if anything, would be predicted to be left standing or not completely damaged?

2. Aside from building at or above hurricane code, boarding up windows, and bringing everything inside, is there anything else one can do to protect one's home? What is the best protection for windows and doors? Does this plywood we use work well? Do shutters work as well and what makes for a good versus a poor hurricane shutter? (I heard one of the worst problems is that water seeps in under french doors and damages floors and causes mold very quickly.) I have a friend who's mother's house was across the street from the beach and up on a dune and survived Katrina (whereas all those on the beach were gone). So, some places did survive Katrina.

3. What would the recovery process look like? Is there a way to find out what the local plan is for disaster relief (e.g., it seems like the disaster recovery plan from Louisiana and Mississippi left much to be desired)?

4. Is there anything we can do as owners to encourage SoWal to have a comprehensive and practiced plan in advance (if there isn't one already -- for example, how would the roll-out of services go)?

5. What is the best way for us all to help each other out during an emergency, even from a distance? What information would we need and how would we get it (assuming this board would be out if power isn't available).

Ideally, we won't have to worry about this, but reality is that a 4 or 5 hurricane could happen to us. How do we set ourselves up to be role models of compassion/efficiency/safety before, during, after a hurricane?

This board certainly plays a role! And we'd want our board members all to leave the area and stay safe!

[Smiling JOe]

Paula, good question. One thing I know is that there will not be people in SoWal shooting at the rescuers and Police. :bang:

I will put my dogs in life jackets, load them in my canoe, and we would begin rescue efforts. It will take a while with only two seats, but we would do what we could, starting with neighbors.

From what I understand, if we get hit with 165mph winds, you can forget about 3/4" plywood covering your windows, because you likely won't have and house behind the plywood.

I am curious to know how money (relief efforts) would flow in to a place where the median home price for new homes is $800,000+, and most are vacation homes.

[OhioBeachBum]

I am curious to know how money (relief efforts) would flow in to a place where the median home price for new homes is $800,000+, and most are vacation homes.
Good point. That, and big difference in population density. Don't forget, though, that there's probably quite a few folks who clean and/or maintain those big beach places living across the bay (in trailers & tiny homes, etc.).

[Paula]

My understanding is that codes require that newer housing (post Opal) be built to withstand (as best as possible) 130 mph wind. Does this ring true to people?

So, if you wanted to protect windows and doors, what would you use if not plywood. (I know there's another thread).

We have much to learn from people whose homes are still standing in places hit by Katrina. Of course, much of it is luck, but we may be able to help luck along just a bit. I'd be real curious about how location, construction, etc. mattered. I friend whose mother's home survived intact within walking distance of a beach was up higher than the others, set back a bit, and they had removed the tall trees from around their property. The one tree that was still there fell, but it missed their house. Of course, there may be some damage to their home that's not immediately visible.

[Beach Runner]

According to what I've read, plywood and hurricane shutters would be worthless in a Cat 5 and probably a Cat 4 storm - the whole house would blow away or washed away, along with the plywood that's attached to it.

One lesson people should learn is do not ride out the storm - obey the evacuation orders.

[Smiling JOe]

My understanding is that codes require that newer housing (post Opal) be built to withstand (as best as possible) 130 mph wind. Does this ring true to people?

I think that is true, but remember, a Cat 4 starts when the wind speeds reach 131mph, so today's construction should handle a winds of a Cat 3. I seem to recall people saying that about the dike systems in NOLA.

We have much to learn from people whose homes are still standing in places hit by Katrina....
Absolutely. The insurance companies want to learn too.

[kurt]

1. Florida building codes improved dramatically after Andrew. A lot of structures here would survive pretty high winds. It all depends on the storm surge. If you get surge and your house isn't elevated or concrete you are likely to lose it. A lot of the concrete commercial buildings would survive, but with plenty of damage.

2. You are right that water infiltration is one of the biggest problems and most people don't have insurance to cover that. Horizontal, wind-driven rain will penetrate most structures somewhere. There are waterproofing experts that can help you before, during, and after construction. They can be invaluable during installation of doors and windows. There are few builders that properly install install doors and windows.

3. I have not seen a plan - contact Emergency Operations Center 850-892-8065. We have limited personnel here and I fear communications would be nonexistent. Neighboring cities would get all the attention from outside.

4. We are still small time. While we have dedicated professionals here, most communities in this country are behind the curve from what I've seen elsewhere. The intent might be good, but a fast-growing community like ours is challenged in keeping up. For example - with all of the wood structures we have built close to each other in high-wind zones and plenty of fireworks, we should have one of the best-funded and most progressive fire departments for its size anywhere.

5. Hopefully we've learned some lessons recently from all the storms. Communications is key. If all the bridges are out to SoWal, forget it. We'd need lots of boats. As far as getting news out - people on the ground with powerful radios that could be used to communicate with people out of the area (North) who have power would be key. For example - If we had radios we could relay info to someone who could post info on the internet, that may be as good as it gets. A HAM radio might be the ticket.

This board's server is not local, so keeping it running shouldn't be a problem. the problem would be getting the info onto the board with no power or internet access. It's good news that we are getting diversified. You never know who might be able to provide good info. Keeping rumors and mistaken info off the board might be a problem though.

[southof30A]

The premise that I have always operated under is that in a Cat 3 shutters or plywood will help minimize the damage, assuming the roof stays on.

However, in a Cat 4 or 5, I have resigned myself to the fact that likely the whole place is gonna blow away.

[Paula]

Well, I don't know how ham radios work, but sounds like that's something to think about as a back-up for this board in case of a devastating hurricane in which people want information. How would such a ham-radio system work? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we were able to help ourselves and others by having an effective back-up communications system in place (even an informal one). Most people on this board read this board in the days leading up to a hurricane, so word about back-up communications systems and resources would get out pretty quickly.

With careful planning through this board, we could be a fine example of grass-roots hurricane preparedness and response (especially since it looks like the government response agencies get overwhelmed pretty quickly and may head toward the larger, more dense areas).

We would need:

1. A back up communications system in place
2. Places for people who live in SoWal to stay if they can't get to their homes or live in their homes
3. Quick availability of essential supplies (water, food, etc.)
4. The support services that would really be provided quickly through local and government agencies, how to get them, and which are most likely to be counted on to respond quickly and effectively in SoWal (again, they may be focused on other areas).

What else? We want to get help to people quickly, find people places to stay, and increase good will and minimize panic.

The time to think of these things is long before a catastrophic event happens when we can think it through calmly and sytematically.

[katie blue]

Definitely not as big an issue as disaster preparedness, but worth mentioning:

A neighbor of mine has been housing a FEMA rep since Dennis, and she learned from him that while most of us have insurance for hurricanes, many of us inland and in the higher elevations (BMB, Seacrest, etc.) don't carry flood insurance. Hurricane insurance generally covers wind damage, however, claims after a hurricane are more often attributed to water damage (horizontal rain, seepage, etc.) Kurt touched on this briefly. Without flood insurance many of us would be out of pocket for the lion's share of the damages, assuming our home was not "totalled." I definitely didn't know this.

[Miss Kitty]

Definitely not as big an issue as disaster preparedness, but worth mentioning:

A neighbor of mine has been housing a FEMA rep since Dennis, and she learned from him that while most of us have insurance for hurricanes, many of us inland and in the higher elevations (BMB, Seacrest, etc.) don't carry flood insurance. Hurricane insurance generally covers wind damage, however, claims after a hurricane are more often attributed to water damage (horizontal rain, seepage, etc.) Kurt touched on this briefly. Without flood insurance many of us would be out of pocket for the lion's share of the damages, assuming our home was not "totalled." I definitely didn't know this.


We talked about this issue last night. Our place is one of those two story units south of 30-A on top of the retail at WC. When we thought of flood ins., we decided against it because we are so high up. But, we did get a little water penetration from IVAN through one of the french doors. No damage except a little water mark on a rug that we were able to flip. Your info gives us another reason to pursue this when we are down this fall. Thanks for the info.

[Camp Creek Kid]

There is nothing we can do to save structures during a Cat4 or Cat5 Hurricane. There is a lot we can do to save lives--complete evacuation being the most important.

[Travel2Much]

Some things learned by me from this:

1. Evacuate if at all possible, or realize fully the choice you are making if you stay. If you stay, really do have the food & water supply they talk about.

2. TELL PEOPLE WHERE YOU ARE!! I repeat, TELL PEOPLE WHERE YOU ARE!! Don't say "I think I am going to my sister's house". Give the precise location and number. When you get there tell them you are safe. I know tons & tons of people, intelligent people, who have no idea where their loved ones are. The NOLA communications link has been completely severed. Even with phone and internet access here in SoWal, not until yesterday pm was I able to contact more than one person I know in NOLA.

3. Evacuate as though it is the big one. Yeah, it might be a two day hassle. But, it might not be there when you get back three months later.

4. If a vacation property, secure it completely when not being used. Bring in patio furniture, etc. Lock doors securely. So, it can be a simple matter of throwing up boards.

5. Buy flood insurance. I don't have it (high elevation). I am going to get it. Dumb decision.

In a precise hit by a Cat 5 (ne quadrant), sure a lot of houses would be destroyed.

[Miss Kitty]

T2M...wise words from someone with first hand experience. You come up in my thoughts daily...

[Paula]

How about using this board as a central place for people to say where they're going before they leave, giving exact names, addresses, telephone numbers and maybe even email addresses. Granted, this may seem a bit too much, but imagine how much peace of mind it will give families who are looking for loved ones. There could be different threads for different topics. For example:

Contact information for evacuees' locations

Looking for missing people (e.g., Have you seen...)

Access to Property and property checks

Services available

Available housing for evacuees

Available transportation

Important general information and announcements

New articles

Hmmm... what other threads would be useful?

[Cavallino]

I agree that a Disaster Contact Registry would be very helpful.
One that would go up and people could post where they can be contacted after evacuation.

However, the question of how to update it for people without access to internet. Maybe a phone number with voice mail and someone<or a pool of volunteers> could manually update information that would be left on the voicemail system.

doug

[ktschris]

Maybe this is where us folks who don't live in SoWal could help. We would still have phone access. If your cell phones would work (hopefully) you could contact one of us and we could post any message or relay any message to you guys.

[kurt]

Maybe this is where us folks who don't live in SoWal could help. We would still have phone access. If your cell phones would work (hopefully) you could contact one of us and we could post any message or relay any message to you guys.

I've done some of that but the assumption is that in a total wipeout cell networks would be gone, as they currently are in NOLA and surrounding areas.

[OhioBeachBum]

How about using this board as a central place for people to say where they're going before they leave, giving exact names, addresses, telephone numbers and maybe even email addresses.
Maybe not a bad idea, but the viability of the material would depend on exactly where the server(s) hosting the board "live"...

[DUH! - Didn't read kurt's earlier post thoroughly...] :oops:

[OhioBeachBum]

I've done some of that but the assumption is that in a total wipeout cell networks would be gone, as they currently are in NOLA and surrounding areas.
Excellent point. Highly durable Sat phone and/or Ham radio equipment is the only practical means of comm in such a "wipeout" situation. Down side of Ham is you need a license (and there's a bit of work an cost associated with that), and any comms must of course be relayed through other Hams (though a relatively helpful lot who seem to rise to the occasion in such scenarios). Down side of Sat phones is the cost - substantial.

[kurt]

Maybe not a bad idea, but the viability of the material would depend on exactly where the server(s) hosting the board "live"...

Dallas.

[OhioBeachBum]

Dallas.
Sweet - didn't know where you were using a service or a local setup on the end of a cable net. Nice call. So SoWal lives in a rack in a data center somewhere in Dallas, said data center no doubt sporting a gaggle of industrial sized UPS units, redundant utility power trunk feeds, and maybe even a nice healthy 2MW generator outside [corp I work for has a setup like that - generator spplies enough power to run the little town where I live. :blink: ]

[Uncle Timmy]

South Walton should fare better than a lot of other communities along the gulf coast in terms of our structures.

Two main reasons:

1.- The majority of extensive damage would be from storm surge, as was the case along the Mississippi coast in Katrina, and Walton's coastline is relatively high. Detailed storm surge maps are available online. Try www.floridadisaster.org for maps of south Walton.

2.- The building codes, including the Florida Building Code, 2001 which is the current code here in Walton County, were strengthened after Hurricane Andrew to address wind related damage. Since a large number of structures here have been built within the last 10 years, a high percentage of our buildings are built strong.

I wouldn't recommend anyone staying for a 4-5 Hurricane of course but hopefully most would return to intact homes.

A few other things to keep in mind when building:

-Metal roofs fare better than asphalt shingles or even tile roofs in high wind.
-Plywood can be difficult and time consuming to put up, especially on second floor windows, consider impact resistant glass or permanently attached shutters in these places
-Concrete block construction will resist wind, humidity, and termites better in the long run than wood frame construction.
-And, (I know this is real specific but), make sure your contractor uses stainless steel or G-185(Z-max) galvanized metal connectors that will be in contact with pressure treated wood. The new pressure treating is far more corrosive than the older stuff from a few years ago and it will eat away metal!

[Camp Creek Kid]

South Walton should fare better than a lot of other communities along the gulf coast in terms of our structures.

Two main reasons:

1.- The majority of extensive damage would be from storm surge, as was the case along the Mississippi coast in Katrina, and Walton's coastline is relatively high. Detailed storm surge maps are available online. Try www.floridadisaster.org for maps of south Walton.

2.- The building codes, including the Florida Building Code, 2001 which is the current code here in Walton County, were strengthened after Hurricane Andrew to address wind related damage. Since a large number of structures here have been built within the last 10 years, a high percentage of our buildings are built strong.

I wouldn't recommend anyone staying for a 4-5 Hurricane of course but hopefully most would return to intact homes.

A few other things to keep in mind when building:

-Metal roofs fare better than asphalt shingles or even tile roofs in high wind.
-Plywood can be difficult and time consuming to put up, especially on second floor windows, consider impact resistant glass or permanently attached shutters in these places
-Concrete block construction will resist wind, humidity, and termites better in the long run than wood frame construction.
-And, (I know this is real specific but), make sure your contractor uses stainless steel or G-185(Z-max) galvanized metal connectors that will be in contact with pressure treated wood. The new pressure treating is far more corrosive than the older stuff from a few years ago and it will eat away metal!

I don't want to be doom and gloom, but I also don't want anyone to have a false sense of security. I've resisted posting this because I don't want to scare anyone. However, my husband was told by the head of the Walton County Building Dept. that 30-A (and Hwy 20) would have been "whiped-out" by Katrina. The new building code has helped, but no construction can be strong enough to withstand winds much greater than 130 m.p.h. Concrete construction is definitely the best way to go and if we build another house near the coast, we are going to build one with reinforced concrete.

That said, the large Cat 4 and 5 hurricane are very rare and there is a lot we can do in preparation and construction to withstand the more common smaller storms.

[Paula]

The gloom and doom possibility certainly exists. But it will be good to be prepared for the up-to-but-not-including gloom and doom scenarios in terms of preparing and salvaging properties. Even in the gloom and doom scenario, it would be very useful to have communication up for notifying people of evacuees' locations, finding missing people, official notices, etc. As we tell our children (as I'm sure you tell your children), people are always more important than things so any action plan we take could first take care of the people and then focus on taking care of the things (if there are any things left!).

If we can get ourselves ready to handle up to a high category 3 or very low 4 (which I believe many places here are likely to withstand), then we can at least preserve what we can with some preplanning (e.g. flood insurance, the best kind of shutters, protecting french door leakage, offering people places to stay to wait out the storm and days afterwards, etc.). If we help each other prepare, we may be able to save a lot of people time and money before, during and after a storm. And you're right that the best way to save lives is to make sure people get out of the area before the exits are closed.

[Miss Kitty]

Dallas.


I feel even closer to SoWal now!

[Smiling JOe]

Maybe this is where us folks who don't live in SoWal could help. We would still have phone access. If your cell phones would work (hopefully) you could contact one of us and we could post any message or relay any message to you guys.

Kurt mentioned that we are assuming a complete wipeout of cell towers. During Hurrican Ivan, the cell towers were so clogged that I was not able to make a call until 4 days after the storm passed. Also, my phone showed that I had 30+ messages, but I was never able to retrieve them.

I understand that text messaging works much better than actual calls for cellular phones when the towers are jammed.

[Donna]

A strong Cat IV or V storm would destroy most structures south of Hwy. 20 and the bridges beyond recovery, with or without a major storm surge. How many people in South Walton remember Gulfport, MI after Camille in 1969? Plywood on windows would be a useless and possibly dangerous deterant to damage. Even Ivan loosened the plywood on our windows almost to the point of its being ripped off. I shudder to think of that huge piece of plywood soaring off of our second story windows, an airborn missile in hurricane-force winds. On the plus side, however, the new building codes are very effective. We have had absolutely no structural damage through several big storms over the past year and we looked very carefully to make sure of that.

Every person in an area threatened by such a storm should simply get out and head for a safer haven, as soon as possible. Everything else is just stuff and can be replaced. We had renters in our house who refused the orders to evacuate before Hurricane Dennis, so very foolish. Their reason? They were having a fmaily birthday party and were just in tears that they might never be able to rent this special house again. :idontno:

FYI, flood insurance through FEMA is not expensive and it carries only a $500 deductible, whereas hurricane insurance carries a $10,000 deductible. We had some minor damage due to storm surge after Ivan. We received a check for the entire claim before our charge card expenses for cleanup were even received. Everyone should carry flood insurance in a coastal area. I would argue that anyone living in Florida should carry it, for that matter.

[Paula]

Thanks, everyone so far. This is a very interesting and useful discussion. Some people got some new advice (e.g., flood insurance), and there are some interesting areas of discussion that may help people's homes (e.g., what kind of window protection -- plywood, shutters, other) at least to a high cat 3/low cat 4 storm.

The bridge situation would be critical. Does anyone have an arial view or map that shows exit and entry routes, including bridges and/or alternatives? Is there any way to leave or get to So. Wal without going over a bridge, even if it's a long route? If not, what boat services would be available (would one have access if they had access to private/charter boats or would private boats be kept out?).

I hope we never have to use any of this advice, but there's some peace of mind to having it!

[kurt]

SoWal is an island - bridges in each direction.

To the East is the Phillips Inlet Bridge over Lake Powell which would disappear quickly from surge. Same thing for the Marler Bridge at east Pass in Destin.

That leaves the Clyde B. Wells - 331 causeway and Bridge, and the Mid-bay bridge in Destin. It's possible one of those could survive, but unlikely. I guess it would depend on the wind direction.

[Smiling JOe]

most of the boats would be destroyed or grounded, or treed (if there is such a thing). Many of the boats run up Four Mile Creek in Freeport and tie off, but with a Cat 4 or 5, they would be gone. My kayak and canoe may prove useful if someone can untie them before the flood comes. One thing is for sure, you wont see me sticking around for such a storm.

[Paula]

Glad you won't stick around. Take anyone who is tempted to stick around with you, SJ. Everyone would take very good care of you and others!

[Smiling JOe]

Glad you won't stick around. Take anyone who is tempted to stick around with you, SJ. Everyone would take very good care of you and others!

I know you would. I thank the many of you who have offered me places to stay. I may take you up on the offers one day. I will be glad to cook, clean, do chores, etc, or just have a glass of lemonade over a long conversation. Bless you all.:D

[Paula]

As I said earlier, you or anyone else is welcome in Michigan. The weather here is very nice in the summer/fall during southern hurricane season. the snow storms typically don't start until Halloween (just kidding -- we almost always get to November before the snow hits!). Our summers here are wonderful because the weather is very nice (can get hot like SoWal, though, but not for so many days in a row typically), it's a university town with all the restaurants, movie theatres, etc., but most of the students are gone for the summer and the town is quiet and easy to manage. We can do hurricane central from here...

[Smiling JOe]

As I said earlier, you or anyone else is welcome in Michigan. The weather here is very nice in the summer/fall during southern hurricane season. the snow storms typically don't start until Halloween (just kidding -- we almost always get to November before the snow hits!). Our summers here are wonderful because the weather is very nice (can get hot like SoWal, though, but not for so many days in a row typically), it's a university town with all the restaurants, movie theatres, etc., but most of the students are gone for the summer and the town is quiet and easy to manage. We can do hurricane central from here...

Where are you located? I attended some classes at MSU, which has a beautiful campus.

[Uncle Timmy]

I don't want to be doom and gloom, but I also don't want anyone to have a false sense of security. I've resisted posting this because I don't want to scare anyone. However, my husband was told by the head of the Walton County Building Dept. that 30-A (and Hwy 20) would have been "whiped-out" by Katrina. The new building code has helped, but no construction can be strong enough to withstand winds much greater than 130 m.p.h. Concrete construction is definitely the best way to go and if we build another house near the coast, we are going to build one with reinforced concrete.

That said, the large Cat 4 and 5 hurricane are very rare and there is a lot we can do in preparation and construction to withstand the more common smaller storms.

I disagree that 30-A and Hwy 20 would be "wiped out". Again, I wouldn't advise anyone to stay for a Category 4-5, but I would expect that most of us would return to damaged, but intact houses.

As backup to my claim, I would like to direct everyone to aerial images of coastal Mississippi taken yesterday by NOAA. Please go to http://ngs.noaa.gov/storms/katrina and look at images of Gulfport. The debris line (from storm surge) extends a distance inland; but the houses north of that are basically intact, with roofs still on.

I'm not trying to minimize the extend of damage here, but just present a reasonable assumption of what a Cat 4-5 landfall in south Walton might bring.

[kurt]

We sure do have a lot of variety in quality and type of construction around here. Some builders are shoddy and some overbuild. Assuming codes are met, door and window quality and proper installation makes the difference on whether your envelope remains intact. Lose one pane and your (stickbuilt) house is gone.

[Paula]

Where are you located? I attended some classes at MSU, which has a beautiful campus.
__________________
I believe Thoreau wrote something refering to that which is important -- (not in so many words) It is not the number of shirts you own, but the number of shirts you wear out.

Smiling JOe


The Business School at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. We love it here (except for the cold weather). I have a very good friend who teaches in industrial relations at MSU and lives in Okemos -- it's a great school. MSU is in a beautiful location, too, and they -- along with Ohio -- are our biggest rivals during football season (but I don't pay any attention to football...).

Ok, SJ, we're getting off topic (what did you study at MSU?)... Ok, let's get back to saving SoWal... we need a communication system ready to go and some boats to come in to get people to their homes when they need to get back and it's considered safe (and to bring food and water in). Where would the closest available boats be that we could recruit given all our boats would likely be inoperable?

[Uncle Timmy]

Oops,

Let me correct my link:

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina

Impressive photos

[SGB]

FYI, flood insurance through FEMA is not expensive and it carries only a $500 deductible, whereas hurricane insurance carries a $10,000 deductible. We had some minor damage due to storm surge after Ivan. We received a check for the entire claim before our charge card expenses for cleanup were even received. Everyone should carry flood insurance in a coastal area. I would argue that anyone living in Florida should carry it, for that matter.

We have flood insurance on our houses, but at the time that I got it I was told that there was a cap of $250,000. I've recently heard that you can buy additional flood coverage. Does anyone know if this is true?

[Camp Creek Kid]

I disagree that 30-A and Hwy 20 would be "wiped out". Again, I wouldn't advise anyone to stay for a Category 4-5, but I would expect that most of us would return to damaged, but intact houses.
.

You may disagree with Billy Bearden, but as he is the person who approves most of the building plans in the county, I think he knows a thing or two about construction. He said 30A would be wiped out, not all of SoWal. 30A is anything within 1 mile of 30A and most homes that close to the Gulf would not make it through the winds of a Cat 4-5. Those winds are the same as an F 2-5 tornado. The only home that is likely withstand those winds is Charlie Hilton's (all concrete)--without the glass. In fact, the dunes would probably be washed away from under it and I wouldn't be surprised if that house floated away.

[Bob]

I don't want to be doom and gloom, but I also don't want anyone to have a false sense of security. I've resisted posting this because I don't want to scare anyone. However, my husband was told by the head of the Walton County Building Dept. that 30-A (and Hwy 20) would have been "whiped-out" by Katrina. The new building code has helped, but no construction can be strong enough to withstand winds much greater than 130 m.p.h. Concrete construction is definitely the best way to go and if we build another house near the coast, we are going to build one with reinforced concrete.

That said, the large Cat 4 and 5 hurricane are very rare and there is a lot we can do in preparation and construction to withstand the more common smaller storms.Concrete monolithic dome construction[there is at least one in Pensacola Beach], would withstand any Cat 4 or 5 hurricane with no problems. They also do better w/ storm surge. They leave a lot in the looks department, and I'll bet they are pricey.

[kurt]

You may disagree with Billy Bearden, but as he is the person who approves most of the building plans in the county, I think he knows a thing or two about construction. He said 30A would be wiped out, not all of SoWal. 30A is anything within 1 mile of 30A and most homes that close to the Gulf would not make it through the winds of a Cat 4-5. Those winds are the same as an F 2-5 tornado. The only home that is likely withstand those winds is Charlie Hilton's (all concrete)--without the glass. In fact, the dunes would probably be washed away from under it and I wouldn't be surprised if that house floated away.

I looked at the Miss. sat photos and saw what twt described. A few structures intact south of the surge debris line, but almost all intact north of the debris line. I was surprised - a lot of those structures I wouldn't think are built to Florida recent standards. I think it all depends on whether your envelope gets compromised by falling tree, debris, or wind pressures, etc. In the eyewall, within microbursts, tornadoes, etc. it's a bit of the luck of the draw. Things like nearby hills, rises, tree barriers, buildings, open water, all kinds of variations. A few miles one way or the other . . . .

[Paula]

So, it sounds like one of the most important things we can do to protect our property is to get very good coverage for windows/doors/etc. so wind/rain doesn't get in. Doing so could save quite a few houses and a lot of insurance and personal money. And plywood is OK, but not great from what I am hearing on this board (better than nothing for sure). I'm going to take a look at that thread from a while ago on hurricane shutters...

[Paula]

We'd want to be sure the poorest in the area are taken care of as well, not just vacation home owners. The concern, as most readers know, is that some are starting to say that the slow reaction to NO may be about race and class as well, and I would not want SoWal to prioritize help based on race, class, etc., but rather on need. I think if we think about these issues as citizens in advance, we're much more likely to do the right things when and if the time comes. We'd need to remember that like NO and other areas hit by Katrina, our officials will also be facing the same challenges that the other citizens are and may not be able to offer as much help as any plan they have in place -- and it's unclear how much help the federal government will give and when (or where SoWal would be in the list of priorities).

[SlowMovin]

...some are starting to say that the slow reaction to NO may be about race and class...
The primary responsibility for securing and managing any city in crisis lies with its mayor and the city government. The mayor of New Orleans is black. So are many, if not most, of the city officials--chief of police, various council people, etc. Much, if not most, of the city's police force is also black.

I really don't think this is the right time play the race card.

[Smiling JOe]

We'd want to be sure the poorest in the area are taken care of as well, not just vacation home owners. The concern, as most readers know, is that some are starting to say that the slow reaction to NO may be about race and class as well, and I would not want SoWal to prioritize help based on race, class, etc., but rather on need. I think if we think about these issues as citizens in advance, we're much more likely to do the right things when and if the time comes. We'd need to remember that like NO and other areas hit by Katrina, our officials will also be facing the same challenges that the other citizens are and may not be able to offer as much help as any plan they have in place -- and it's unclear how much help the federal government will give and when (or where SoWal would be in the list of priorities).

It sounds as though everyone needs to ask for help if we get hit. The excuses going around now are that no one asked for help.

I agree, evacuation should be prioritized based on need. Sick, elderly, children, women, men, not splitting up families whenever possible. Our lack of a dense population may make this difficult to do. We would likely see the rescues be based on rescuers proximity to any victims.

[Smiling JOe]

The primary responsibility for securing and managing any city in crisis lies with its mayor and the city government. The mayor of New Orleans is black. So are many, if not most, of the city officials--chief of police, various council people, etc. Much, if not most, of the city's police force is also black.

I really don't think this is the right time play the race card.
I hear you about the race card. I don't know the reasons why people are not getting help. It would be just as likely, and possibly far from the truth, that the insurance companies or gov't, for the uninsured, did not want to go bankrupt. If they let everyone die, they would not have to pay out money to the victims.

Maybe the govt was blocking the only way out to "protect" the neighboring town? I just don't have a grasp for what is happening and not happening in NOLA.

In SoWal, if we have to rely on local politicians to save us, I guess Commissioner Cindy Meadows would be the only one trying to save us. All the other Commissioners live in NoWal and don't seem to take care of SoWal.:(

[SlowMovin]

Good points, as always, SJ.

One thing though...the insurance companies do not have any control over how the city responds. It is ultimately the city's, and then the state's, responsibility. The police and fire department are under control of the mayor. The National Guard is under control of the governor. The Feds step in when all else fails--which is exactly what happened this time.

[Smiling JOe]

Good points, as always, SJ.

One thing though...the insurance companies do not have any control over how the city responds. It is ultimately the city's, and then the state's, responsibility. The police and fire department are under control of the mayor. The National Guard is under control of the governor. The Feds step in when all else fails--which is exactly what happened this time.

I know the insurance don't have that pull at a local level. If it were handled at a Federal level only, I would be suspicious. I believe the closer truth is that NOLA has elected an idiot to be their Mayor, and he operates by top-down management. It is times like these when your vote counts. If we are lucky, this kind of disaster does not occur, but when it does, you better hope you have the right people in place. Personally, I think if Katrina hit us, Comm. Meadows would be fighting for us, and herself, and the other Commissioners, if we are lucky, would be on the north side of the Bay saying swim.

[iqueequeg]

There are waterproofing experts that can help you before, during, and after construction. They can be invaluable during installation of doors and windows.


Got any names of waterproofing experts? We're starting to build our house now.

[kurt]

Got any names of waterproofing experts? We're starting to build our house now.

Billy Carter 850-231-2573

[Paula]

The primary responsibility for securing and managing any city in crisis lies with its mayor and the city government. The mayor of New Orleans is black. So are many, if not most, of the city officials--chief of police, various council people, etc. Much, if not most, of the city's police force is also black.

I really don't think this is the right time play the race card.

I definitely agree that we shouldn't overemphasize the race/class/or whatever card, regardless of where the press goes with this. But I always like to keep myself in check by reminding myself that all of us can have biases and these can come out without even thinking during a crisis by our decisions and actions. If we were ever in the same situation, I'd hope people would say SoWal's was a model of broad helping based on need and priority and that we would know where the most needy are and be there to help. I have great faith in SoWal and I don't know enough about NO.

[OnMackBayou]

A while back I was talking to a builder about how high to build on the bayou, just to be safe. He said to find someone who lived here in 1975 during Hurricane Eloise, find out how high the water got then, and add another 8 feet to that.

Did anyone live here then? Just wondering what the surge was like, and how much the coastline was rearranged along 30A, since it took a direct hit from an almost Cat 4, and obviously survived.

This is from an Eglin site:

1975 Hurricane ELOISE: Grayton Beach/Seagrove Beach history With landfall as a deepening Category 3 hurricane (the eye pressure 955mb (28.20 inches of mercury) had fallen 31 millibars in the 24 hours prior to landfall), Eloise is the most intense storm to have ever made a near-direct hit on Eglin AFB and the nearby communities. Winds of 100 knots (115 MPH) were measured at Eglin AFB before a window exploded at the observation station and the recording instrument failed (much to the distress of the young observer who braved the remainder of the storm by himself huddled in the bathroom as glass and debris swirled around him). Sustained winds reached 125 MPH with gusts to 156 MPH at locations along the beach. The two day rainfall at Eglin AFB measured 13.53 inches (with 14.90 inches for a storm total), making this the wettest period in the 50 years of records at the base until Georges broke this record in 1998. With the right hemisphere of the storm coming ashore to the east of East Pass (which connects Choctawhatchee Bay to the Gulf), the bay rose briefly as the storm approached, to levels higher than during the 1936 storm or Flossy, but then fell quickly as the center passed east of Destin (pulling water out of the bay). A significant storm surge did occur eastward, along coastal Walton, Bay and Gulf Counties, where it reached 12-16 feet in some places. The storms's rapid forward speed (it was picked up by the circulation in advance of a strong cold front moving in from the west, and was moving 20+ knots northward at landfall) contributed to the height of the storm surge. A hurricane reconnaissance aircraft reported seeing the Highway 331 Bridge below in a clearing through the clouds as the plane fixed the eye (elliptically shaped, 20 to 10 miles across) coming ashore in eastern Walton County. Damage totalled $1.3 billion in today's dollars (making it among the 20 costliest storms in U.S. history) with 21 deaths (44 died in Puerto Rico earlier as it moved through the Caribbean).

More pictures and first hand descriptions.

http://www.wunderground.com/auto/newsday/hurricane/at197505.asp
http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/nws/nwind8.htm

[Smiling JOe]

http://sowal.com/bb/gallery/files/2/1/6/hurricane2x4thruatree.jpg
Photo courtesy of NOAA.

Does this 10' long 2"x4" board sent into this tree by hurricane force winds
answer your questions about how much protection plywood provides to your windows. You better be using at least 3/4" plywood to hope to do any good.

[Paula]

Thanks for all the insights on this thread so far. The best advice so far is:

1. Do whatever you can to prepare your house (including having flood insurance, but insurance people would know more about this recommendation; have strong plywood or shutters for windows/doors).

2. Do not ride the hurricane out, let your family and others know where you are specifically (including name, address, phone, email, etc.).

3. Have a community and personal communication system in place.

4. Have a plan to get back to your place if you can (which may take boats for SoWal.

5. Have all your insurance paperwork and contacts with you, along with cash (we have a friend who's father had a place in NO and has already contacted his insurance company and has things moving already -- he didn't leave NO, but stayed elsewhere in a hotel and had the information and plenty of cash with him if needed).

6. Know where the highest risk areas are (e.g., trailer parks, people living in housing that may not be hurricane resistant) and get to them quickly after the storm.

7. Have our photographers on this site continue to provide the service by photographing areas and houses for people if they are willing to do so (as could anyone with a digital camera who had access to the area).

What's missing from this list? (I'm sure lots)

By the way, of her parents and inlaws who lived in hard-hit areas, her mother's house escaped damage (all the houses on the beach in front of her were gone though, she was up on a hill a bit father from the beach -- they also didn't have big trees that could fall on their house), her in-laws house was OK, and her father in NO lost his house.

By the way, LLBean sells inexpensive windup radios (no battery needed) and we'll get a few of those. LLBean is a reliable store, so they're probably quite good.

[Wanda]

I have a 6th floor unit at One Seagrove Place. When purchasing coverage, the insurance agent told me that flood insurance covers only rising water. Based on info I'm reading here, flood insurance is needed to cover wind driven rain? :?:

[aquaticbiology]

here be my 2cents:
1. A back up communications system in place - good old CB radio - car and mobile units are now 5 watts and go for miles, no license required, not monitored and battery powered/low power requirements, with 40 channels to choose from for your 'sowal channel' - ain't nothing else that won't be jammed with idiots talking on and on about the storm. Stay off the bloody ham radio - we (yes, I'm a ARO) do a lot of good but with idiots talking about the storm it gets full too. Licenses have been pulled, recordings are being made, and many, many citations will be handed out for ham radio use for non-emergency communications during Katrina's emergency only traffic.

2. Places for people who live in SoWal to stay if they can't get to their homes or live in their homes - should be a predefined 'rally point', say the big Holiday Inn at Dothan Alabama on 231 (that's ours). 231 through panama city is always connected since it is the railway link and has no long bridges

3. Quick availability of essential supplies (water, food, etc.) - everyone should have an emergency kit always ready for fire, flood (non-hurricane), power outage, etc. It should contain a minimum of bottled water, clean dry clothes and shoes, some non-fridge food and a am radio. Ours is in a sealed waterproof canoe-river-type float bag inside a plastic tub, and also includes a small battery powered tv (priceless), a really big flashlight (priceless), lots and lots and lots of batteries (priceless), a backpacking-type tiny gas stove with little pots and pans (priceless) to make coffee and also to cook and eat as much food from the fridge as possible before it spoils and also to heat with in winter, lots of blankets and a small tent. A snowstorm cut us off last winter and after 4 days of no power or water last winter a man finally came around from the local volunteer fire department to see if those of us who live out here in the sticks were ok. As he hit the door his glasses fogged up, a cup of hot coffee was pushed into his hand and we had to turn down the tv. Nuff said.

4. The support services that would really be provided quickly through local and government agencies, how to get them, and which are most likely to be counted on to respond quickly and effectively in SoWal (again, they may be focused on other areas). Trust no one. Best bet: assume that you are the only one with a still living brain and you will have no problem.

Be self sufficent, think ahead and be sure to test your planning.

Easiest way to set up and test your survival kit is to simply go primitive camping using only your emergency kit. You'll be suprised at what you thought ahead of time was necessary, and what is really necessary (like a razor for shaving, sunburn cream, something really long to read, a freaking chair to sit on, an air mattress, even a small fishing kit)!

Good store for kit supplies: http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/home/index.jsp

[Miss Kitty]

Okay AB...this is the best info yet!!! I am printing it out now. About the ham radio...I have friends that live full time on a sailboat and that was the first thing he said after the hurricane as far as communication, interesting to know your experience and your suggesting of a CB radio! Wise words from a wise guy! (I mean that in the nicest way...although I do enjoy your funnies too!)

[aquaticbiology]

QUOTE: (much to the distress of the young observer who braved the remainder of the storm by himself huddled in the bathroom as glass and debris swirled around him). /QUOTE:

DUH! GET IT YET? LEAVE!!

[Smiling JOe]

AquaticB, Are you saying that you take your portable TV on primitive camping trips? You may want to see Landlocked about that SUV toilet. :floor: FYI - I don't think a television would pick up any signals in this area.

All other suggestions are great. I have not heard mention of a camping type water filter, which tend to clog when often used, but it could be a life saver. Some of these filters are so good, that you can filter sewage contaminated water 2-3 times and it is safe to drink. It is much easier to carry around the 1 pound water filter than 30 pounds of water.;-)

[Joe]

Perhaps we should all be buying homes in Alys Beach. All construction in the community is "Fortified" and should withstand cat 5 hurricanes. Of course the cost to build in Alys Beach begins at $450 sq/ft so building a fortified structure is expensive.

[kurt]

Perhaps we should all be buying homes in Alys Beach. All construction in the community is "Fortified" and should withstand cat 5 hurricanes. Of course the cost to build in Alys Beach begins at $450 sq/ft so building a fortified structure is expensive.

If Alys Beach had been subjected to the surge in Mississippi . . . ?

[Smiling JOe]

Perhaps we should all be buying homes in Alys Beach. All construction in the community is "Fortified" and should withstand cat 5 hurricanes. Of course the cost to build in Alys Beach begins at $450 sq/ft so building a fortified structure is expensive.

Probably much cheaper to keep my current home and buy new hurricane homes in St. Augustine, FL and Austin, TX. I could run either way and hang out for a long time and still have money in the bank. :D

[Miss Kitty]

BTW, AB....My idea of primitive camping is a Best Western...so I'm just gonna trust you on this one! I think a regular ol' AM/FM radio w/ batteries would be my choice over the TV.

[Miss Kitty]

Probably much cheaper to keep my current home and buy new hurricane homes in St. Augustine, FL and Austin, TX. I could run either way and hang out for a long time and still have money in the bank. :D

You can always come to Dallas...we'll take you in!

[aquaticbiology]

In Mobile Alabama, back in the 70's there was a CB club that I belonged to. It was great - we talked all night a lot of times. It would go forever, too, down the beach. You could talk to everybody at one, or just two could talk on the 'other' channel. I was also a REACT emergency coordinator. I don't know if they are useful today or not, but their link is: http://www.reactintl.org/. Y'all could be the "SoWal - the SoWal CB club"!

Check what's available at Radio Shack (cheap!):
http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F008%5F009%5F005%5F003&Page=1&find=cb(keyword)&hp=search

[Miss Kitty]

In Mobile Alabama, back in the 70's there was a CB club that I belonged to. It was great - we talked all night a lot of times. It would go forever, too, down the beach. You could talk to everybody at one, or just two could talk on the 'other' channel. I was also a REACT emergency coordinator. I don't know if they are useful today or not, but their link is: http://www.reactintl.org/. Y'all could be the "SoWal - the SoWal CB club"!

Check what's available at Radio Shack (cheap!):
http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F008%5F009%5F005%5F003&Page=1&find=cb(keyword)&hp=search


What do you mean Y'ALL? You would be our fearless CB leader! Breaker Breaker....

[aquaticbiology]

Last one, then I've got to get back to work (clearing tons of debris out of the fish ponds :eek: yeech!). Handheld is the best (battery power and car adapter and house adapter are all cheap and easily available and it uses AA batteries!). No antenna to install, etc and it can go with you. Boat radios just don't go as far as cb and frs (family radios) are chock full of idiots and quacking (literally) children.

[aquaticbiology]

BTW, AB....My idea of primitive camping is a Best Western...so I'm just gonna trust you on this one! I think a regular ol' AM/FM radio w/ batteries would be my choice over the TV.

When the meterologist says "the tornado is RIGHT HERE!(points at a crossroads on screen) you need to get in the shelter if you live anywhere in Alabama, especially RIGHT HERE in THIS AREA!" TV is so way better.

[kurt]

The internet is the CB Radio of the 90's.

-statement made a decade ago by a senior VP at ABC.

[Smiling JOe]

Last one, then I've got to get back to work (clearing tons of debris out of the fish ponds :eek: yeech!). Handheld is the best (battery power and car adapter and house adapter are all cheap and easily available and it uses AA batteries!). No antenna to install, etc and it can go with you. Boat radios just don't go as far as cb and frs (family radios) are chock full of idiots and quacking (literally) children.

What? no big antenna hanging off the back bumper nor a tower mounted to the house? I ain't doing it then. That takes the fun out of knowing who has a CB. :D

[OhioBeachBum]

here be my 2cents:
1. A back up communications system in place - good old CB radio - car and mobile units are now 5 watts and go for miles, no license required, not monitored and battery powered/low power requirements, with 40 channels to choose from for your 'sowal channel' - ain't nothing else that won't be jammed with idiots talking on and on about the storm.

Hmmm... CB's been 5 watts since the get-go. Only recent difference is FCC dropped license requirement around 1980. I used a nice little cobra back in '70s in truck driving days. Downsides - tech hasn't changed over the years, effective range still more or less 4 miles (sometimes slightly better with no obsticles - I've got maybe 5-8 miles on a really good day talking to someboday with a fixed - tall - tower). Technically, a GMRS at 5 watts has a better effective range, and GMRS does technically require an FCC license. Bottom line, range into double digits usually requires a substantial external antenna.

[Smiling JOe]

Hmmm... CB's been 5 watts since the get-go. Only recent difference is FCC dropped license requirement around 1980. I used a nice little cobra back in '70s in truck driving days. Downsides - tech hasn't changed over the years, effective range still more or less 4 miles (sometimes slightly better with no obsticles - I've got maybe 5-8 miles on a really good day talking to someboday with a fixed - tall - tower). Technically, a GMRS at 5 watts has a better effective range, and GMRS does technically require an FCC license. Bottom line, range into double digits usually requires a substantial external antenna.

Sounds like we need to begin training carrier pigeons.

[aquaticbiology]

This morning I unzipped the baggie and tested the handheld CB we have in the truck for emergencies when out of cell phone and everything else reach. Still works fine and I talked to some guy about 3 miles away (a skipland'er running a monster linear with apollo squeak microphone, echo box and everything - I thought those things had surely gone to the yard sale many years ago, but they're apparently still out there). Anyway, in the days after the cat 5, and all the cellphones are full, the telephone poles are down, the power is out, the computers are either missing or out of power, the boat radio is full of gibbering idiots and wouldn't reach far enough inland anyway, frs and gmrs are full of runny-nosed parentally neglected children apparently quacking like ducks at each other (literally - just try to use a frs/gmrs radio for any length of time any day of the week and see if you don't end up switching channels - yeah, you know what I mean - "can you hear me?"..."yes, can you hear me?"...ad infinitum), a group of concerned citizens spead out along a waterfront area could use a predetermined CB channel to communicate with each other. And each CB equipped individual extends the reach of the communications chain by repeating whatever message is being broadcast down the chain.

[aquaticbiology]

Off to the scummy ponds again (dressed to the 9's today - brown rubbery suspendered waders! totally chic!). Anyway, just to summarize, after the cat 5 - the participating residents along the beach can check on each other via CB (if no other method is available), and the rest of us that are off the beach (and out of state) can use this board to funnel info in and out of the affected area. Sounds like a disaster plan to me, for the communication side anyway. Now, what about a rally point for those that have to evacuate, so that they can hang tough together in hard times. I suppose it depends on the route the cat 5 takes inland, but ours has always been the big Holiday Inn in Dothan, Alabama. We never had to use it anyway, but it was good to know it was there. Just make a suggestion or two and someone can tally the results. Maybe even post a map for us navigationally challenged like me. (Please don't say the Superdome!)

[OhioBeachBum]

And each CB equipped individual extends the reach of the communications chain by repeating whatever message is being broadcast down the chain.
Right about the chatter even on GMRS, and even with coded squelch. That is the upside of CB (not near as much traffic now as heydays in the '70s). Reasonably spaced relay can work OK - and if one happens to have a nice heathy old vintage '70s portable 12VDC Black Cat linear laying around for "emergency use", a full 15' antenna on the 'ole jeep, (and a healthy battery), so much the better. :biggrin:

[Paula]

The news reports are increasingly clear that a major problem with Katrina is that the communications broke down because (1) there wasn't an effective plan in place and (2) they didn't have communication technologies in place thta would work well without traditional power sources.

Also, the message is clear that one may not be able to get immediate help from government sources -- that may take a few days.

So, some communication steps would be (and could be organized through this board -- isn't that wonderful...):

1. Agree upon what communication system could be used under the worst circumstances (no power, lots of water)
2. Make sure enough people in the area have compatible communication systems and know they are part of the emergency network
3. Try them out in advance with the different people who share the communication network
4. Have a plan for communicating with each other and practice a few times
5. Have a way for people outside that communication system to get and give information if possible.

I believe this is the only way citizens will have a working sytem in place if the government doesn't have one immediately. It's good to have a back-up plan.