Mortgages by Walmart??

[SHELLY]

Will really be interesting if Walmart starts offering mortgages, HELOCs and home equity loans.....may put the "broke" in "Mortgage Brokers."

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/wal-mart-set-announce-new-financial/story.aspx?guid=%7BC14F7657%2D1D1A%2D48B9%2D90F6%2 D3E9B423BD060%7D&dist=hplatest

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[scooterbug44]

My concern with Walmart branching out into so many interests is what happens to the country when they fail or have financial trouble?

Their percentage share of their current markets - toys, groceries, prescriptions - is scary enough.

[Bob]

Judging by the folks strolling through Wal Mart in O'town, Wal-Mart needs to crank up it's subprime lending machine.

[30A Skunkape]

Judging by the folks strolling through Wal Mart in O'town, Wal-Mart needs to crank up it's subprime lending machine.

:nono1: Be nice Bob;didn't you read The Millionaire Next Door?

[6thGen]

My concern with Walmart branching out into so many interests is what happens to the country when they fail or have financial trouble?

Their percentage share of their current markets - toys, groceries, prescriptions - is scary enough.

What happens to the county? They get cheaper services, or pay for better service. If they get cheaper services, the county residents will be spending their money on other things or invest it in promising industries.

[scooterbug44]

What happens to the county? They get cheaper services, or pay for better service. If they get cheaper services, the county residents will be spending their money on other things or invest it in promising industries.

My concern is the effect on our countRy's economy as a whole when one company/corporation is so heavily vested in a variety of industries, not another discussion about the free market system because people got tired of arguing about Palestinians with you.

At its current rate of growth, market share, and expansion, a failure of Walmart would be similar to a stock market crash. They currently control 30% of the US market for household staples, 40% of all DVD sales, 25% of drug sales, and 35% of the grocery market.

[6thGen]

My concern is the effect on our countRy's economy as a whole when one company/corporation is so heavily vested in a variety of industries, not another discussion about the free market system because people got tired of losing the Palestinian argument with you.

At its current rate of growth, market share, and expansion, a failure of Walmart would be similar to a stock market crash. They currently control 30% of the US market for household staples, 40% of all DVD sales, 25% of drug sales, and 35% of the grocery market.

If the rest of the market wants more share, they should build a better or cheaper widget. If Wal-Mart fails, there would be, as there always has been, enough money in household staples, DVDs, drugs and groceries for someone to provide those products to the market. Amazon seems to have found a good model. I fixed your last sentence in the first paragraph for you.

[scooterbug44]

I fixed your last sentence in the first paragraph for you.

No, you made the sentence inaccurrate. :bang: Frustrating people w/ inaccuracies, nitpicking, and unrelated examples so that they refuse to talk to you does not mean you "won" the argument.

My concern is that in many areas Walmart has driven "someone to provide those products to the market" out of business, so in case of a failure of Walmart (which I feel needs to be checked under anti-trust laws) there IS no alternative.

The free market examples you love fall apart because of their monopoly - they can't build a better or cheaper widget because Walmart controls the suppliers of the raw materials for a widget, the transportation they need to get the widget to market, and will undercut any of their attempts to sell the widget until they drive them out of business.

[6thGen]

No, you made the sentence inaccurrate. :bang: Frustrating people w/ inaccuracies, nitpicking, and unrelated examples so that they refuse to talk to you does not mean you "won" the argument.

My concern is that in many areas Walmart has driven "someone to provide those products to the market" out of business, so in case of a failure of Walmart (which I feel needs to be checked under anti-trust laws) there IS no alternative.

The free market examples you love fall apart because of their monopoly - they can't build a better or cheaper widget because Walmart controls the suppliers of the raw materials for a widget, the transportation they need to get the widget to market, and will undercut any of their attempts to sell the widget until they drive them out of business.

I'm open to any of your challenges on inaccuracies, which no one noted, or unrelated examples. Probably best to discuss over there, but since you brought it up I thought I'd address it.

Do you have examples of where Wal-Mart has used predatory tactics? I'm sure the feds would love to see them. In business school they taught me that if you can cut costs by vertical or horizontal integration, that's a good thing for everyone involved, except those that cannot compete. Because you like the corner grocery store that can't either offer a product that consumers are willing to pay more for or offer a cheaper product does not mean that the rest of the market should be forced to subsidize your preferences. Wal-Mart is not a monopoly.

[6thGen]

For the record, unless I would be making at least 3 stops if I didn't go, I don't shop at Wal-Mart.

[aubbieone]

I agree with the point that the market will react and other vendors will pick up the slack that Walmart leaves. In all reality Walmart is going nowhere however! The concern with one company having such market share is futile, do you suggest limiting their ability to compete? Is it wrong that they beat the competition but solid business model and provide services and cost at a fraction of most others? I imagine you are concerned with Google also, maybe Boeing?

[Busta Hustle]

i bet the fact that Florida led the nation in 2005 for mortgage fraud has a little something to do with WM knowing it would be a good time to enter that market here...and just look at the nation wide foreclosure rates...brought to you by the banking and MTG. industry...remember the S&L's? At least if the WM tries to foreclose you can go shoplift some PEZ.:biggrin:

[Bob]

:nono1: Be nice Bob;didn't you read The Millionaire Next Door?I shop there. Let's just say it ain't Destin. Even so, SunTrust has a branch, there's a McDonalds, beauty salon etc. Be sure to have pepper spray with you for late night forays to shop there.

[Rambunkscious]

Its amazing that Walmarts critics usually are the people who actually need their low costs the most. If their competitors had as good a business model as Walmart, there would be no criticism of Walmart; they dont have such a business model. I would think that if Walmart can save us money on our mortgage, I would be the first one in line to apply for their service.
As for as them having a business failure, this is the weakest argument of them all, they are stronger than any of the other lenders anywhere and are getting stronger every day. This would be a wonderful thing if it happens, this company actually increases the average guys standard of living. Their lower prices cancel out gasolines higher prices so we dont have much inflation, and thats a good thing. A Walmart mortgage, that would make some of the local lenders quake in their boots, love the thought.

[Bob]

Its amazing that Walmarts critics usually are the people who actually need their low costs the most. If their competitors had as good a business model as Walmart, there would be no criticism of Walmart; they dont have such a business model. I would think that if Walmart can save us money on our mortgage, I would be the first one in line to apply for their service.
As for as them having a business failure, this is the weakest argument of them all, they are stronger than any of the other lenders anywhere and are getting stronger every day. This would be a wonderful thing if it happens, this company actually increases the average guys standard of living. Their lower prices cancel out gasolines higher prices so we dont have much inflation, and thats a good thing. A Walmart mortgage, that would make some of the local lenders quake in their boots, love the thought.I hope they underwrite and process these loans in Communist China where they make all those wonderful products that have raised our standard of living.

[kurt]

I hope they underwrite and process these loans in Communist China where they make all those wonderful products that have raised our standard of living.

Chinese children are quite skilled and can easily process applications by calculating credit scores and debt to income ratios.

[SHELLY]

Chinese children are quite skilled and can easily process applications by calculating credit scores and debt to income ratios.

...unlike the U.S.A. strip mall Sub-Primates during the RE frenzy.


.

[Mango]

Its amazing that Walmarts critics usually are the people who actually need their low costs the most. If their competitors had as good a business model as Walmart, there would be no criticism of Walmart; they dont have such a business model. I would think that if Walmart can save us money on our mortgage, I would be the first one in line to apply for their service.
As for as them having a business failure, this is the weakest argument of them all, they are stronger than any of the other lenders anywhere and are getting stronger every day. This would be a wonderful thing if it happens, this company actually increases the average guys standard of living. Their lower prices cancel out gasolines higher prices so we dont have much inflation, and thats a good thing. A Walmart mortgage, that would make some of the local lenders quake in their boots, love the thought.


Oh Goody!
I might actually go into Walmart to see their loan officers passing out coupons for application fees dressed in Blue aprons, while directing dead beat parents to Aisle 7 for prohylatics. :roll:
This ought to be good.

There's a big difference between business models for Goods vs. Services.

[Bob]

Chinese children are quite skilled and can easily process applications by calculating credit scores and debt to income ratios.It's bad enough we all may end up delivering pizzas to each other because all manufacturing left the U.S.A. The ultimate insult would be being turned down for your home equity loan by a fourth grader in Shanghai.

[SHELLY]

It's bad enough we all may end up delivering pizzas to each other because all manufacturing left the U.S.A. The ultimate insult would be being turned down for your home equity loan by a fourth grader in Shanghai.

I'm betting the 4th grader in Shanghai probably has more money saved in her piggy bank than many of the U.S. HELOC Slaves.

....call it tough love.

.

[Bob]

I'm betting the 4th grader in Shanghai probably has more money saved in her piggy bank than many of the U.S. HELOC Slaves.

....call it tough love.

.We need those HELOC checks to buy all those 69.99 bikes and 29.99 DVD players that make us "happy".

[SHELLY]

We need those HELOC checks to buy all those 69.99 bikes and 29.99 DVD players that make us "happy".

Not to mention the 50" plasma tvs, Hummers and--soon--$600 iPhones!!

Happy, happy, joy, joy....happy, happy, Joy!


http://www.financialsense.com/Market/cpuplava/2006/images/0726/0726.h4.gif

/

[scooterbug44]

Its amazing that Walmarts critics usually are the people who actually need their low costs the most. If their competitors had as good a business model as Walmart, there would be no criticism of Walmart; they dont have such a business model. I would think that if Walmart can save us money on our mortgage, I would be the first one in line to apply for their service.
This would be a wonderful thing if it happens, this company actually increases the average guys standard of living. Their lower prices cancel out gasolines higher prices so we dont have much inflation, and thats a good thing.
The Walmart business model is to make money selling you cheap products (often at prices they set just to drive their competition out of business), regardless of what it does to the community or economy.

Unlike Henry Ford wanting to build a car his workers can afford, Walmart does not increase the average guys standard of living. The average worker at Walmart makes $18,000 and does not have benefits, insurance, or the ability to afford most of the things they sell, even at those prices you love.

Walmart can't sell you things at those low-low prices while paying for goods made in the USA or a living wage for their employees. You sell part of your soul every time you shop at Walmart - hope that cheap plasma TV was worth it!

[Rambunkscious]

The "average guy" is not a walmart employee. The "average guy" is a walmart customer. Please advise how if I pay less for walmart goods than I pay anywhere else, how is this not improving my living standard? As for as the origin of these products, they are ALL made in China, no matter where you
purchase them.

Walmart will be in home loans eventually. It appears to be a problem for some of the people on this board and I am wondering why. About the only adverse posts here reflect to "the loan applications will be taken from some China person" or go there and get your mortgage and get your condoms while you wait on aisle 7. This is cute but drivel.

Why are these people objecting to walmart mortgages? I'll bet they are in the mortgage broker business? If so, I completely understand their grief.

[Mango]

The "average guy" is not a walmart employee. The "average guy" is a walmart customer. Please advise how if I pay less for walmart goods than I pay anywhere else, how is this not improving my living standard? As for as the origin of these products, they are ALL made in China, no matter where you
purchase them.

Walmart will be in home loans eventually. It appears to be a problem for some of the people on this board and I am wondering why. About the only adverse posts here reflect to "the loan applications will be taken from some China person" or go there and get your mortgage and get your condoms while you wait on aisle 7. This is cute but drivel.

Why are these people objecting to walmart mortgages? I'll bet they are in the mortgage broker business? If so, I completely understand their grief.

Let me be a little clearer. I own a mortgage brokerage and have been in the business for 20 years. The Walmarts and the Pricelines of the world offering mortgages have never caused me personally any grief. I do not consider them to be competition.

You are comparing a business model for goods (vacuum cleaners etc) with offering financial services. This is a totally different animal altogether.
Negotiating a goods price for a national chain is not the same as negotiating prices on mortgages. I don't have the time to explain to you how Pricing works in the secondary mortgage market, but trust me, it won't be anything to write home about if indeed they are able to get decent pricing initially based on their bond ratings.

Further after witnessing the subprime debacle,
I do not believe Walmart will be able to meet the needs of most of their clients. (http://www.247wallst.com/2007/06/the_national_ba.html)This attached article clearly shows the typical regular Walmart customer.

Much of the company's customer base (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/wal-mart-set-announce-new-financial/story.aspx?guid=%7BC14F7657%2D1D1A%2D48B9%2D90F6%2 D3E9B423BD060%7D&dist=hplatest) is the "unbanked" or "underbanked" group of the U.S. population that has little or no access to banking services. And, that is what makes the decision seem so queer. With the current considerable problems of sub-prime lending, it is hard to imagine how a company like Wal-Mart would be able to screen credit risk better than banks and mortgage loan companies.

In lieu of the mortgage business, I would have prefered to see Federal Regulators allow them the Charter for Banking. I think they were too rash in their decision. I do not think it would have hurt small banks as much as they imagined. Perhaps a minute percentage of the unbanked population would have opened checking and savings accounts which would have been beneficial to our economy.
Save $50 on that plasma screen TV and then stash the money for their next purchase. But I do no think the average Wal-mart shopper thinks in those terms.

[Rita]

I can see them wanting the check cashing/paycheck advances type business.
They would likely compete strongly with the established businesses of that type.

.

[kathydwells]

Heard on the news this morning. Walmart employees will no longer be wearing the blue aprons. They are trying to create a "professional atmosphere", and lure other "customers" into the store. Each employee will be given 2 polo shirts. They have to buy their own khaki pants. HMMMMMM.....doesn't Target employees dress in red polo's and Khaki pants?

Just thought I would share that bit of info.

[Mango]

Heard on the news this morning. Walmart employees will no longer be wearing the blue aprons. They are trying to create a "professional atmosphere", and lure other "customers" into the store. Each employee will be given 2 polo shirts. They have to buy their own khaki pants. HMMMMMM.....doesn't Target employees dress in red polo's and Khaki pants?

Just thought I would share that bit of info.

They could be wearing Santa Suits and I still wouldn't try to brave the crowds in that store. :lol:

[Bob]

The "average guy" is not a walmart employee. The "average guy" is a walmart customer. Please advise how if I pay less for walmart goods than I pay anywhere else, how is this not improving my living standard? As for as the origin of these products, they are ALL made in China, no matter where you
purchase them.

Walmart will be in home loans eventually. It appears to be a problem for some of the people on this board and I am wondering why. About the only adverse posts here reflect to "the loan applications will be taken from some China person" or go there and get your mortgage and get your condoms while you wait on aisle 7. This is cute but drivel.

Why are these people objecting to walmart mortgages? I'll bet they are in the mortgage broker business? If so, I completely understand their grief.You need to get your application in to Kurt. Tell him you want the Bentonville pay option ARM. With every mortgage, the borrower gets a new American flag made in China. Regarding Wal Mart, if you can't see a company that is helping eviscerate our manufacturing base, killing local small business, and not paying their employees a living wage, then I suspect you may own their stock. WalMart is not what Sam Walton wanted it to become. It, like other stupid American corporations has a twisted business model..... Profit at the expense of community.

[Rita]

You need to get your application in to Kurt. Tell him you want the Bentonville pay option ARM. With every mortgage, the borrower gets a new American flag made in China. Regarding Wal Mart, if you can't see a company that is helping eviscerate our manufacturing base, killing local small business, and not paying their employees a living wage, then I suspect you may own their stock. WalMart is not what Sam Walton wanted it to become. It, like other stupid American corporations has a twisted business model..... Profit at the expense of community.

Agreed ... In the small town where I grew up, people now have to drive 15 minutes to get what they used to be able to just go in town and buy (often able to walk) Many towns/ mom & pops across the country have suffered. Part of the problem was/is that some customers didn't/don't continue to support them because the prices are a bit higher.

What is most irritating is the customers who get the knowledgable service and information on a product from a mom & pop store, then go to Walmart to make their purchase. :( :angry:

.

[Rambunkscious]

Thanks for your comments. Let me see if I understand this. Walmart is rude and crude, the type of store you certainly would not want to shop in or "fight the crowds in" the type of company whose customers are so crude that they dont even have bank accounts. So, if I got a loan from them, they would probably not give me the proper service that would be required. And then if I use a mortgage broker in the area, then I would get much better customer service and so forth. And walmart anyway, they are not used to dealing with such sophistocated customers as ourselves anyway, they are mainly used to dealing with "hand to mouth" type customers. Well, you may very well be right but as for as my needs if I'm looking for a million dollar loan on an 2 million dollar property, I am going to compute my annual debt service. The lowest number wins. Period. Also, just assuming you were going to invest a million dollars and walmart paid you 6% on a cd and the local bank paid you 5%, where would you invest your money? You dont have to answer that question because I think I already know the answer.

[scooterbug44]

Regarding Wal Mart, if you can't see a company that is helping eviscerate our manufacturing base, killing local small business, and not paying their employees a living wage, then I suspect you may own their stock. WalMart is not what Sam Walton wanted it to become. It...... has a twisted business model..... Profit at the expense of community.

Thank you Bob!

Rambunkscious, I practice what I preach, which is why I choose to take my business to locations other than Walmart. As I have stated before, you may be saving $ with Walmart, but you're not - you are just not paying for service.

I may pay more $ at a different location, but I am also getting more for that price - advice from career professionals, convenience, and supporting the type of community I want to live in. I also am willing to bet that in the long run the higher quality of goods, discounts and freebies for being a good customer, and customer service will actually save me more money than being a Walmart shopper.

[kathydwells]

Hmmmmmmm......just to put things in perspective for me. And really I am just typing out loud to no one inparticular I might add. I am one of those blue collar, paycheck to paycheck kind of folk. Have to watch every penny (because I do like my week vacation every year in paradise). Live in a very small community. I do shop at Walmart. It is convienent for me. I work 40 hours a week. I do not have time to run all over the county to buy my weekly grocieries. The Walmart that I shop in, is clean, and the customer service is great, and I pretty much know most of the employees that work there. Yep, friends of mine who feed their kids and pay their bills on a Walmart salary. I will not feel guilty for shopping there. To each his own. If you don't want to shop there and can afford to shop elsewhere, that is wonderful. You are blessed, be grateful. There are others however, that are not that blessed. Oh, and I also shop at Dollar General because there is one on my way home from work. Sometimes I will swing in there just to pick up a few things.

[Mango]

Thanks for your comments. Let me see if I understand this. Walmart is rude and crude, the type of store you certainly would not want to shop in or "fight the crowds in" the type of company whose customers are so crude that they dont even have bank accounts. So, if I got a loan from them, they would probably not give me the proper service that would be required. And then if I use a mortgage broker in the area, then I would get much better customer service and so forth. And walmart anyway, they are not used to dealing with such sophistocated customers as ourselves anyway, they are mainly used to dealing with "hand to mouth" type customers. Well, you may very well be right but as for as my needs if I'm looking for a million dollar loan on an 2 million dollar property, I am going to compute my annual debt service. The lowest number wins. Period. Also, just assuming you were going to invest a million dollars and walmart paid you 6% on a cd and the local bank paid you 5%, where would you invest your money? You dont have to answer that question because I think I already know the answer.

Rambunkcious, you are putting words in my mouth. I never called anyone crude.
I didn't make up the statistics of the average Walmart shopper, it was clearly printed in the article link I posted. I assume they got their information from surveys.
So don't shoot the messenger. :roll:

I could care less that Walmart is opening a mortgage division. My biz comes mainly from referrals, not a storefront.

and no, I don't use Walmart because it is too crowded in my area and too far to make it my while. I have used it in the past for multiple purchases to stock my rental with domestic goods, (I am not stoopid, I like to save money too, and I have a budget) but other than that I do not regularly shop there for groceries or to buy one item only. I won't spend $10 more on gas, stand on line for 20 minutes to save $10. It doesn't make fiscal sense to me when I get the same savings at Stop and Shop 3 miles from house vs. 15 miles (which is a chain store here in the Northeast)
.

[Bob]

Thanks for your comments. Let me see if I understand this. Walmart is rude and crude, the type of store you certainly would not want to shop in or "fight the crowds in" the type of company whose customers are so crude that they dont even have bank accounts. So, if I got a loan from them, they would probably not give me the proper service that would be required. And then if I use a mortgage broker in the area, then I would get much better customer service and so forth. And walmart anyway, they are not used to dealing with such sophistocated customers as ourselves anyway, they are mainly used to dealing with "hand to mouth" type customers. Well, you may very well be right but as for as my needs if I'm looking for a million dollar loan on an 2 million dollar property, I am going to compute my annual debt service. The lowest number wins. Period. Also, just assuming you were going to invest a million dollars and walmart paid you 6% on a cd and the local bank paid you 5%, where would you invest your money? You dont have to answer that question because I think I already know the answer.Millionaire investor requests help from Wal Mart loanofficerclerk as per the Peter Principle. One loan fits all with cradle to grave "help" for the masses. Maybe they will next do bail bonds and introduce you to a Wal-barrister to review your closing documents. After all, cheapest is bestest. Right? Wal-Mart has lost the focus of it's core business and is growing by cannibalizing small town America. What a deal!!

[Mango]

Millionaire investor requests help from Wal Mart loanofficerclerk as per the Peter Principle. One loan fits all with cradle to grave "help" for the masses. Maybe they will next do bail bonds and introduce you to a Wal-barrister to review your closing documents. After all, cheapest is bestest. Right? Wal-Mart has lost the focus of it's core business and is growing by cannibalizing small town America. What a deal!!

I don't agree with them getting into the financial services industry, and not because I am a broker, but the possible impact of that business to the market as a whole, particularly the subprime market., but Walmart is not a government entity. It's a publicly traded business.
If it makes fiscal sense to me to drive to Walmart to save money on goods and food items, why wouldn't I? :idontno:
This is the USA and Wal-mart is just part of our free enterprise system.
I don't see anyone getting upset about getting better rates on CD's and savings with on-line banking companies like the ING's of the world.

[Rambunkscious]

Sorry Mango, I completely understand and agree with most of your points.
Simply stated, this is what the future will be. It will help many of us and our friends. There have been many studies on the subject of whether walmart helps or hurts the public, I think all these studies conclude that walmart helps the public. It hurts however the small merchant or businessman who happens to be in their growing number of businesses, you simply cannot compete with them and this is sad.

I wish you good luck in your business, the human and personal effect is something walmart cannot compete with either. And some people are not as sensitive to the bottom line as me.

[Dune-AHH]

Given how enormous/widespread Walmart has become...it seems to be way more than SOME customers (more like millions) still choosing Walmart. Walmart is fulfilling some kind of "desire" in millions of consumers lives.

I agree that it's very irritating behavior to "steal knowledge" from a good operation only to go "give" the $$ reward to Walmart ... but it's the customers themselves who are choosing to act "badly" in that transaction ... not Walmart per se.

Is it Walmart's fault that WE as consumers WANT WANT WANT (and have conditioned our children to expect...maybe even throw devil-child-tantrums to GET) MORE MORE MORE?

I'm not "touting OR flouting" Walmart. Just giving an opinion on our collective "modern" American consumerism (I'm guilty too). Millions of people are not being FORCED to pass thru Walmart's front doors. They are CHOOSING to. If/When the "ICK" factor outweighs the perceived "BENNIES"...it'll be the way of Montgomery Wards for Walmart (maybe the feelings about Walmart on this board reflect the beginnings of such a demise...)

OK...everybody... :banging: the crap out of me :wave:

[Rambunkscious]

Bob, thanks for your post, I understand your frustration. I think many businesses and governments especially are guilty of the Peter Principle but I think walmart would be the last company on my list who would be guilty of operating under this principle. Lets face it. They have a masterful and well executed business plan.One size fits all? I doubt it. Bail bonds? I think you would be surprised what businesses they will be in the future. I am not a stockholder just an admirer. Will you loan me some of that pepper spray?

[kathydwells]

Sam Walton had a vision. He pursued his vision. He made a lot of money for himself and his family. Isn't that what all of us strive to do? Given the opportunity, would not all of us like to have the kind of money that this man had/and his family has? I would. He started a business. That business meets the needs of many, many people who "choose" to shop there. Now, would I get a mortgage from Walmart? Probably not...I hope I never have another mortgage, unless of course I make those millions someday and can buy me a beach house. :cool: I am just saying that the Walmart bashers out there, I am sure would love to have started that business and succeeded as well as Sam Walton did. IMHO!!!!

[scooterbug44]

I think Sam Walton had a great idea and was a great businessman. He would not like what his vision and empire have turned into IMO.

[Dune-AHH]

Sam Walton had a vision. He pursued his vision. He made a lot of money for himself and his family. Isn't that what all of us strive to do? Given the opportunity, would not all of us like to have the kind of money that this man had/and his family has? I would. He started a business. That business meets the needs of many, many people who "choose" to shop there. Now, would I get a mortgage from Walmart? Probably not...I hope I never have another mortgage, unless of course I make those millions someday and can buy me a beach house. :cool: I am just saying that the Walmart bashers out there, I am sure would love to have started that business and succeeded as well as Sam Walton did. IMHO!!!!

I agree :clap:.

[kathydwells]

I think Sam Walton had a great idea and was a great businessman. He would not like what his vision and empire have turned into IMO.

Exactly what has his vision and empire turned into that he would not have liked?

Is it not every businesses desire to be the best at what they do? Isn't that why businesses are started everyday? To be the best, to make the most money? I mean, why start and continue a business if it is not your desire to be the #1 business. :idontno:

[Miss Kitty]

I agree :clap:.

Just a thought Dune-AHH...you are up so early that you could go to the 24 hour Walmart and shop til you drop!!! :biggrin:

never mind D-A, I was confused with the time.

[scooterbug44]

Exactly what has his vision and empire turned into that he would not have liked?

Is it not every businesses desire to be the best at what they do? Isn't that why businesses are started everyday? To be the best, to make the most money? I mean, why start and continue a business if it is not your desire to be the #1 business. :idontno:

Walmart is a parasite. I am firmly convinced it will eventually destroy this country and the american way of life. You can shop there and use whatever services they provide, but I feel the overall cost of doing business with them is too much to pay for the instant and temporary gratification of low prices.

Walmart is certainly the best at what they do - paving over acres of land, building giant warehouse stores, abusing their employees, destroying communities, driving their competitors out of business and into the ground, and eliminating customer service and quality.

I don't think how much money a company makes means it is the best anymore than ones bank account is a measure of how good of a person you are. HOW they make that money and the long term effects also need to be considered.

[Dune-AHH]

Just a thought Dune-AHH...you are up so early that you could go to the 24 hour Walmart and shop til you drop!!! :biggrin:

Actually...I'm just up so LATE that it "appears" EARLY! I'm a total dud when it comes to shopping ... Spent TOO MANY years in retail doing competitive shopping for work. These days I "drop" before I get out of the driveway!
I'd rather ...
.
.
reorganize my sock drawer than shop. ;-)

[Bob]

Sorry Mango, I completely understand and agree with most of your points.
Simply stated, this is what the future will be. It will help many of us and our friends. There have been many studies on the subject of whether walmart helps or hurts the public, I think all these studies conclude that walmart helps the public. It hurts however the small merchant or businessman who happens to be in their growing number of businesses, you simply cannot compete with them and this is sad.

I wish you good luck in your business, the human and personal effect is something walmart cannot compete with either. And some people are not as sensitive to the bottom line as me.Yes, put all your faith in one gigantic, enormous company that will serve all your needs. Where have we down this road before?

[Bob]

Sam Walton had a vision. He pursued his vision. He made a lot of money for himself and his family. Isn't that what all of us strive to do? Given the opportunity, would not all of us like to have the kind of money that this man had/and his family has? I would. He started a business. That business meets the needs of many, many people who "choose" to shop there. Now, would I get a mortgage from Walmart? Probably not...I hope I never have another mortgage, unless of course I make those millions someday and can buy me a beach house. :cool: I am just saying that the Walmart bashers out there, I am sure would love to have started that business and succeeded as well as Sam Walton did. IMHO!!!!That's like saying today's America is George Washington's baby. Sam Walton, were he around now, would clean house and put this country as the primary source of product. It makes sense in the long run. It about doing what's right for your country.

[Rambunkscious]

Bob, stuff made in this country costs at least twice as much as stuff made in China. Much of the stuff made in this country is not twice or even as good as stuff made in China. If I were to buy stuff made in this country, I would have to have two jobs just to break even. Is this what you propose? I hope not, because if it is, this is not a groundswell for you.

[Bob]

Bob, stuff made in this country costs at least twice as much as stuff made in China. Much of the stuff made in this country is not twice or even as good as stuff made in China. If I were to buy stuff made in this country, I would have to have two jobs just to break even. Is this what you propose? I hope not, because if it is, this is not a groundswell for you.You are being short sighted. It's not about lowest at the expense of your country. With Wal Mart's massive economies of scale, goods in America can be produced cheaply with massive factory orders. Regarding Chinese quality, well what product group are you talking about? Pencils, microprocessors, cars, shampoo? We've given away the farm with their currency manipulation and have enabled our own deficit spending because they buy huge chunks of our debt. It's bad business for America to do these things for low prices, because the scenario I point out weakens our country, and is not fiscally sustainable in the long run. It's much like the Latin bumrush across our borders. Personally, I can remember paying 200.00 for my first DVD player at Costco. Now 30.00 buys one made in China. Every room in my house that has a TV has a DVD player. Do I need them? No. Does it raise my standard of living? I would argue no. I would rather pay 99.00 for one American made player built by Americans. There would be less trade deficit, less foreign influence from our debt purchase, and more national strength through manufacturing infrastructure. Our country would be more self sufficient and could not easily be held hostage by any country or group like OPEC. This was the scenario we had during the cold war. China owns us business wise, and we rely on them too much for manufacturing sourcing. One day they're going to face us down when we object to their military ambitions. Will we have the sway to make our position stick when they produce most of our everyday goods? That's the true cost of your cheap Chinese products we take for granted today, much like OPEC and terrorism, our dollars our slowly funding a problematic rival at the expense of our autonomy and way of life.

[Rambunkscious]

Thanks Bob for clearing that up for me!

[Bob]

Thanks Bob for clearing that up for me!That sounded suspiciously like my wife after a coffee induced rant.

[6thGen]

The manufacturers have no one to blame but themselves and their elected union bosses to blame for their loss of business.

[Bob]

The manufacturers have no one to blame but themselves and their elected union bosses to blame for their loss of business.Another ""please bend over" free trader has spoken. The corrupt proletariat forced all our factories offshore because they wanted major medical and more than minimum wage. Where were the voices of reason when NAFTA was signed? Answer: no on cared and no one continues to care. Perhaps we may all eventually be buried in Chinese coffins. It will raise our remaining relatives standard of living......as they deliver pizzas.

[beachmouse]

The manufacturers have no one to blame but themselves and their elected union bosses to blame for their loss of business.


Huge strawman statement there. The consumer durable and soft goods manufacturing sectors long ago started a big shift from the unionized North to right to work states in the South and Southeast. The percentage of manufacturing workers that are union members is at record lows.

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of jobs that are being 'sent to China' these days were non-union jobs when they were in America.

In a heaslthy economy, there needs to be a balance between profits for those who invest labor into the business, and those who invest capital into the business. The old UAW contracts were clearly putting the good of labor at the expense of stockholders, but I think there's been a huge and potentially catastrophic shift over the past twenty years in rewarding the capital investors instead of (and at the expense of) the people who invest their labor into the business.

[6thGen]

“Proletariat”? I didn’t know you were into Marx. However, I believe you meant that the corrupt bourgeoisie forced the factories offshore, since that fits your argument a little better. As for minimum wage and required medical insurance, it’s one reason that there are not more jobs here. If companies were free to choose the amount they pay their labor, including benefits, they’d pay what the market would bear. It would be in their best interest to pay a decent wage to their employees so they can retain them. As for investing labor or investing capital, like capital, labor can vote with its feet. No one is working at gunpoint. If American workers want to compete in a global economy, they need some skin in the game, specifically in education or specialized training. In other words, they need to be good at something other than showing up.

[Bob]

“Proletariat”? I didn’t know you were into Marx. However, I believe you meant that the corrupt bourgeoisie forced the factories offshore, since that fits your argument a little better. As for minimum wage and required medical insurance, it’s one reason that there are not more jobs here. If companies were free to choose the amount they pay their labor, including benefits, they’d pay what the market would bear. It would be in their best interest to pay a decent wage to their employees so they can retain them. As for investing labor or investing capital, like capital, labor can vote with its feet. No one is working at gunpoint. If American workers want to compete in a global economy, they need some skin in the game, specifically in education or specialized training. In other words, they need to be good at something other than showing up.6thGen, your relatives were slaveholders I presume. Wages seek the lowest common denominator in a global market. If you offshore your manufacturing base, you gut the middle class for cheap goods. That's the greedy short sighted choice we have made as a nation. It's bad for America, unless you are a stock holder looking at the numbers every 3 months.

[6thGen]

6thGen, your relatives were slaveholders I presume. Wages seek the lowest common denominator in a global market. If you offshore your manufacturing base, you gut the middle class for cheap goods. That's the greedy short sighted choice we have made as a nation. It's bad for America, unless you are a stock holder looking at the numbers every 3 months.

You treat it as a zero sum game. Who buys the items at lower prices? Just the stock holders? Where are the wages depressed? Given our incredibly low unemployment numbers, it's clear that everyone that wants a job has one.

[Bob]

You treat it as a zero sum game. Who buys the items at lower prices? Just the stock holders? Where are the wages depressed? Given our incredibly low unemployment numbers, it's clear that everyone that wants a job has one.Wal vs. Costco

http://www.bac-america.org/buy_america_articles_and_more/american-made_apparel_in_so_ma.htm

[kurt]

I encourage everyone to watch this show, or read the online transcript:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

Although saving money at Walmart is perception and not reality, the fact that you can buy a $39 microwave (how can you even ship a microwave from China for $39?) at many stores in America is a result of the Walmart-China joint venture.

While their partnership may not be the only reason America is declining and China is rising, it will be an important chapter in the history of a country that once was.

[Mango]

I encourage everyone to watch this show, or read the online transcript:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

Although saving money at Walmart is perception and not reality, the fact that you can buy a $39 microwave (how can you even ship a microwave from China for $39?) at many stores in America is a result of the Walmart-China joint venture.

While their partnership may not be the only reason America is declining and China is rising, it will be an important chapter in the history of a country that once was.

Alright :roll: , but after 20/20's real estate show is over. :lol:

[Mango]

I watched the PBS special and although it was informative, I wish it had addressed the actions our government needs to enforce to make China honor their WTO obligations. They manipulate their currency to create a discount on goods to the tune of about 20-40%, and pirate about 90% of our intellectual property rights.
Not sure how Walmart or any other manufacturer/importer could be blamed for working an unfair trade system that we are allowing to continue. :idontno:

[Bob]

Milk is 2.99/gallon at Costco, and 3.88 at Wal-Mart. I've seen the same happy employees at the local store for years now with very little turnover. Costco stores are clean have many American made products, and their employees are well paid. Wal-Mart is the exact opposite, with a greater use of part-timers who have no benefits. With the exception of store level managers, their employees are poorly paid and their stores are not as clean, especially the local Sam's Wholesale. This is a corporate decision born of profit before people and community, and is not the vision of Sam Walton. I believe Wal-Mart has lost it's way and is building a very poor track record across our country. Price and corporate profit do not trump every other consideration in retail. Go ask the CEO of Target as this company donates 5 percent of pretax profits to charity. Mortgages by Wal-Mart? Can you imagine trusting the largest transaction of your life to an outfit with a bigger case of bad karma?

[beachmouse]

The Chinese are also hoping to enter European and North American auto markets in the near future. If this is typical of the quality of vehicle safety and craftsmanship, those cars should not be allowed into the country until basic flaws are corrected:

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/22/brilliance-bs6s-adac-crash-test-is-anything-but/

[elgordoboy]

You are being short sighted. It's not about lowest at the expense of your country. With Wal Mart's massive economies of scale, goods in America can be produced cheaply with massive factory orders. Regarding Chinese quality, well what product group are you talking about? Pencils, microprocessors, cars, shampoo? We've given away the farm with their currency manipulation and have enabled our own deficit spending because they buy huge chunks of our debt. It's bad business for America to do these things for low prices, because the scenario I point out weakens our country, and is not fiscally sustainable in the long run. It's much like the Latin bumrush across our borders. Personally, I can remember paying 200.00 for my first DVD player at Costco. Now 30.00 buys one made in China. Every room in my house that has a TV has a DVD player. Do I need them? No. Does it raise my standard of living? I would argue no. I would rather pay 99.00 for one American made player built by Americans. There would be less trade deficit, less foreign influence from our debt purchase, and more national strength through manufacturing infrastructure. Our country would be more self sufficient and could not easily be held hostage by any country or group like OPEC. This was the scenario we had during the cold war. China owns us business wise, and we rely on them too much for manufacturing sourcing. One day they're going to face us down when we object to their military ambitions. Will we have the sway to make our position stick when they produce most of our everyday goods? That's the true cost of your cheap Chinese products we take for granted today, much like OPEC and terrorism, our dollars our slowly funding a problematic rival at the expense of our autonomy and way of life.
How about I buy some of those $30 dvd players and sell them to you for $99 and the American who would've had to make it can go do something more productive with his time. That extra $69 will go to an american and stay here in America... buy 2 and I'll spend it locally..dinner.. maybe at Stinky's. Must be tough seeing enemies everywhere "latin bumrush", "communist China", sneaky A-rabs.

[Bob]

How about I buy some of those $30 dvd players and sell them to you for $99 and the American who would've had to make it can go do something more productive with his time. That extra $69 will go to an american and stay here in America... buy 2 and I'll spend it locally..dinner.. maybe at Stinky's. Must be tough seeing enemies everywhere "latin bumrush", "communist China", sneaky A-rabs.Hated that factory work, did you? Perhaps we could characterize 10-20 million illegals as the Latin Waltz, as I don't see why they would all leave when Ford's paying 3 bucks an hour to assemble Fusions. The Latins, Chinese,and A-Rabs are not our enemies. They just all want in on the almighty dollar whether it be by the sweat of their brow or the cost of their products. I believe we've sold ourselves out to profit in the short run. Anyone need a pizza delivered??

[elgordoboy]

Whaddya got against folks who deliver pizzas? Should I aspire to making socks instead? Why do some people think we need to be making pencils, shampoos, DVD's to be a great country? I don't know anyone who works in the service industry such as "delivering pizzas" I also don't know anyone, personally, who manufactures anything. Everyone I know that wants a job has a job and all seem to be making out at them pretty well. Maybe that changes in the coming times, I'll keep an open mind. Will you?

[Bob]

Whaddya got against folks who deliver pizzas? Should I aspire to making socks instead? Why do some people think we need to be making pencils, shampoos, DVD's to be a great country? I don't know anyone who works in the service industry such as "delivering pizzas" I also don't know anyone, personally, who manufactures anything. Everyone I know that wants a job has a job and all seem to be making out at them pretty well. Maybe that changes in the coming times, I'll keep an open mind. Will you?I'm disparaging the lack of benefits/wages in the service sector, not the job holder. Manufacturing jobs pay more on average with higher wages, benefits, and a retirement. China is not just manufacturing pencils. I suspect the very computer you pecked out this message on is Chinese. Free trade has cannibalized a great deal of our manufacturing base. It's not good long term policy to abdicate your autonomy to our eventual rival for world leadership. We are too dependent on China, whether it's Dell computers or pencils, and that makes us weaker.

[6thGen]

I'm disparaging the lack of benefits/wages in the service sector, not the job holder. Manufacturing jobs pay more on average with higher wages, benefits, and a retirement. China is not just manufacturing pencils. I suspect the very computer you pecked out this message on is Chinese. Free trade has cannibalized a great deal of our manufacturing base. It's not good long term policy to abdicate your autonomy to our eventual rival for world leadership. We are too dependent on China, whether it's Dell computers or pencils, and that makes us weaker.

Bob,
No one is stopping you from buying pencils, computers, etc. from US companies. No one is stopping you from opening a factory and producing pencils, or producing computers. I just ask that you don't try to dictate my line of work, or my choice of purchases.

[Bob]

Bob,
No one is stopping you from buying pencils, computers, etc. from US companies. No one is stopping you from opening a factory and producing pencils, or producing computers. I just ask that you don't try to dictate my line of work, or my choice of purchases.Well spoken, free trade comrade. No go check your "made in" labels on all the items in your office, and tell me if that strengthens our country in both economic and diplomatic terms. Let's see, who invented the word "kowtow".

[goofer44]

If we would end the war and stop wasting lives and hundreds of billions of dollars , we could invest here in America. We must get our fiscal house in order in America. The enormous waste of taxpayer money is mind boggling !! Earmarks or whatever the hell Pelosi is calling them must end. Too much corruption in Washington and in the rest of state gov't too. The next president needs a veto pen with indelible ink. We don't need tax increases but we do need spending discipline. I shutter to think what will happen if the Chinese and the Petro dollar sheiks decide not to buy U.S. treasuries or rollover the debt when it comes due. We would be in financial chaos if that ever happened. It would be economic warfare and we would LOSE. The more we borrow the more we are slittting our economic neck. We need to concentrate on the enormous problems facing us and stop being the big bully around the world !!! If countries want to be democratic, let them fight and create it themselves. We can help and encourage but the dieing for it is not our responsibility. I am fed up with all the money we spend here and abroad. It is an enormous waste. Help Western Europe,( the new French gov't may actually help us), Israel and the nations in our hemisphere but flip everyone else the bird. Time to stop being the biggest patsy on Earth.

[SHELLY]

If we would end the war and stop wasting lives and hundreds of billions of dollars , we could invest here in America. We must get our fiscal house in order in America. The enormous waste of taxpayer money is mind boggling !! Earmarks or whatever the hell Pelosi is calling them must end. Too much corruption in Washington and in the rest of state gov't too. The next president needs a veto pen with indelible ink. We don't need tax increases but we do need spending discipline. I shutter to think what will happen if the Chinese and the Petro dollar sheiks decide not to buy U.S. treasuries or rollover the debt when it comes due. We would be in financial chaos if that ever happened. It would be economic warfare and we would LOSE. The more we borrow the more we are slittting our economic neck. We need to concentrate on the enormous problems facing us and stop being the big bully around the world !!! If countries want to be democratic, let them fight and create it themselves. We can help and encourage but the dieing for it is not our responsibility. I am fed up with all the money we spend here and abroad. It is an enormous waste. Help Western Europe,( the new French gov't may actually help us), Israel and the nations in our hemisphere but flip everyone else the bird. Time to stop being the biggest patsy on Earth.

Goofer,

Geeze bud...unless you've got the farm tied up with Brookstreet Securities, just open a cold one and enjoy the sunset--the economic meltdown isn't going to happen overnight. The Chinese will get what's coming to them when they discover all those USA subprime CDOs aren't worth the paper they're printed on :cool:

.

[elgordoboy]

Goofer,

Geeze bud...unless you've got the farm tied up with Brookstreet Securities, just open a cold one and enjoy the sunset--the economic meltdown isn't going to happen overnight. The Chinese will get what's coming to them when they discover all those USA subprime CDOs aren't worth the paper they're printed on :cool:

.
If you ever write a book, fiction or non-fiction, can I get on the list to proof or just see a rough draft? I've been lurking the last 5 months or so and catching up on posts. Your's have stood out. Fell off my chair a time or two laughing and I can't find any reason to to argue with you....yet. Don't really want to though either.:shock:

[SHELLY]

If you ever write a book, fiction or non-fiction, can I get on the list to proof or just see a rough draft?

I'm flattered...but I already made a promise to Oprah.


.

[6thGen]

Well spoken, free trade comrade. No go check your "made in" labels on all the items in your office, and tell me if that strengthens our country in both economic and diplomatic terms. Let's see, who invented the word "kowtow".

I believe that there would be more damage to the Chinese if we quit purchasing their goods than there is to us for purchasing them. For an example, look at your premise that Wal-Mart destroys small towns by eliminating small businesses (that overcharge). When folks quit buying from the small businesses and buy from Wal-Mart, the consumers win via more disposable income and the producers, or distributers lose their source of income. Unless we are forced to purchase from the Chinese, we are in the driver's seat.

[Bob]

I believe that there would be more damage to the Chinese if we quit purchasing their goods than there is to us for purchasing them. For an example, look at your premise that Wal-Mart destroys small towns by eliminating small businesses (that overcharge). When folks quit buying from the small businesses and buy from Wal-Mart, the consumers win via more disposable income and the producers, or distributers lose their source of income. Unless we are forced to purchase from the Chinese, we are in the driver's seat.Yes, I've heard the we can default, we can quit buying argument. It's what an economic junkie would say waiting for the next debt sale fix. If China undertakes an invasion of a sovereign state such as Taiwan, we will look the other way out of economic dependence and expediency born of short sighted "profit before country" policies. Free trade is not to be worshipped as religion, because it has a very dark side of unintended consequences. Imagine allowing free trade the ability to gut our agricultural sector. Just like the Tolstoy quote about not knowing the horrors of war until someone close to you dies, if you've not been sacked because of our whore-like relationship with China, who cares....right?

[6thGen]

Yes, I've heard the we can default, we can quit buying argument. It's what an economic junkie would say waiting for the next debt sale fix. If China undertakes an invasion of a sovereign state such as Taiwan, we will look the other way out of economic dependence and expediency born of short sighted "profit before country" policies. Free trade is not to be worshipped as religion, because it has a very dark side of unintended consequences. Imagine allowing free trade the ability to gut our agricultural sector. Just like the Tolstoy quote about not knowing the horrors of war until someone close to you dies, if you've not been sacked because of our whore-like relationship with China, who cares....right?

Everything has unintinded consequences. Capitalism and free trade might not be perfect policy, but it is the best we've come up with.

[SHELLY]

Everything has unintinded consequences. Capitalism and free trade might not be perfect policy, but it is the best we've come up with.

I guess this depends on whether your job has been outsourced to "Bob" in Bangalore or not.

.

[6thGen]

I guess this depends on whether your job has been outsourced to "Bob" in Bangalore or not.

.

I have plenty of skin in the game, so I'm not worried.

[Rambunkscious]

problem is, you cant live your life without purchasing Chinese items.

Their products are everywhere.

[beachmouse]

Maybe not entirely, but it isn't that hard to cut back on Chinese goods by 90% or so with some moderate label-reading.

[Rambunkscious]

I do not believe it is possible to cut back on Chinese products by 90%.

Even your computer and your car have Chinese parts in them.

Even if you could cut back on Chinese products by 90%, you would have to get a second job to pay the difference compared to non-Chinese products.

Your food, clothes, shoes, electronics, office supplies, building materials,
furniture, rugs, car parts, jewelry, tools,cameras, computer parts, dishes, toys,come from China, so whats left?

There is an article in todays Ft Walton paper about someone who was trying to do what you suggested no Chinese & seemed to be no problem. It is a problem unfortunately. For example Chinese womens shoes 30 dollars, same American made 114 dollars........................................... ....

[beachmouse]

Some recent purchases for us. It's a pretty middle class spending pattern, IMO, and we're currently at one professor's salary between the two of us until I can find another job.

Food- nope. We've checked place of origin pretty carefully since the toothpaste incident. Number one source of imported food in our diet is Chilean produce (killer clementines from there right now and their peaches over the winter were almost as good as Georgia ones) We only eat locally caught fish and shellfish.

Clothing and shoes- most recent clothing came from Vietnam, Indonesia, Mexico, and the Dominican Republic. Prices- $10-$18 per clothing item. Running shoes came from Vietnam

Cameras- only from Germany or Japan. Mr. Mouse is insanely picky about his camera gera

Dishes- melamine from Denmark, some neat plates and bowls from Japan (courtesy of World Market in Pensacola) and the big splurge for my birthday was a Le Crueset wok from France

Furniture- American-made in small family factories and woodworking shops for a very reasonable price (courtesy Room and Board)

Tools- American-made. If you look through Lowe's/Home Depot/Sears, the price difference between American and Chinese tools isn't that much

Electronics- one cheap Chinese DVD player for a back bedroom was a recent pruchase. I'd guess the rest of the older stuff is a mix of Japan, Taiwan, China, USA, and a little bit of high end EU stuff

Jewelry- either American-made, or from smaller southeast Asian, Middle Eastern and African vendors. Save for my big two rings, and a pair of diamond earrings, most of my jewelry cost $40 per piece or less


As for the $30 vs. $114 shoes, there are a lot of $114 Chinese shoes on the market these days that weren't terribly expensive to produce. And there really isn't a price difference between the companies that still make running shoes in America and the ones who outsource.

Car parts- bleepin VW parts come by way of Germany or Mexico. The Subaru's place of final assembly was Indiana with mostly a mix of American and Japanese parts

Toys- No kids for us yet. When I have to buy a toy gift, it's usually books or some sort of EU-produced deal

[Rambunkscious]

WOW, I am impressed with your effort and salute you!!!

[scooterbug44]

It really isn't that difficult to avoid Chinese products if you shop around and buy quality items. Items may cost more, but will last longer so I consider it equal. You aren't saving money by buying cheap stuff - you are getting exactly what you pay for! Good products can last forever with care - I eat off my great grandmother's dishes every day.

Be careful about buying produce from South and Latin American countries as their rules and regs regarding pesticides and chemicals are not as strict.

[beachmouse]

Agreed with the looking for quality that lasts part. What good's a $10 toaster if you have to buy a new one every year and clutter up a landfill with the remains of the old one?