Emergency BCC Meeting - 8/1/05

[peaboy]

After much work today, County Commissioner Ken Pridgen has requested an emergency BCC meeting to take place on Monday, August 1, 2005 at 5:00 p.m. in the South Walton Annex. The sole topic will be the horrendous use of the brown muck that was placed at Blue Mountain Beach.

We need a full house in attendance. If you are concerned over the photo's of Brown Mtn Beach and concerned about the direction our county and the beaches are heading than please make your presence felt monday.

If you have any further questions, please contact ed berry at 267.0558 or ed@shopforthehealthofit.com

[Sandie]

I hope that the house is full for this meeting. What they have done to the beaches is horrible. Hope everyone remembers this when it's time to elect the new officials. There's always a way to show folks how you feel, esp. when they don't seem to listen.

[wetwilly]

Hopefully as a result of the flood of emails and calls and the emergency meeting on the 1st, the commissioners will take action and get the contractors to take this subgrade brown sand off the beaches and bring in the 6.2 grade sand as specified. This brown "dirt" is obviously not what the 7/21 letter issued by the commissioners office specified as acceptable.

[saj300]

As a frequent visitor to the area, I was shocked by the pictures as well. I emailed the county commissioners today, and quickly received a response from one of them, stating that she was against the brown sand. While many of us visitors won't be able to attend the meeting, I hope that they take into account the letters we sent, and that the locals that are able to attend make all our voices heard. Thanks to those of you in the area who are fighting this fight.

[JB]

That isn't even sand. It's dirt.

Is it too late to remove the sand and replace it with something that falls under the guidelines? Will they do this, or just allow that section of beach (where I happen to spend three weeks a year) to be permanently ruined?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[aquaticbiology]

just time for a quick science experiment for the meeting - kurt, you will probably want to take photos of this for documentation with date and time displayed - grab a handful of the dirt and drop it into a mason jar of water. shake well, label and leave overnight to settle - see just how much is 'white' sand in case they say there's more 'white' sand content than there obviously is. bet you 5 bucks it's mostly decomposed peat and its about 5% white sand. also, if you can do it before the meeting, check for radon gas emmission from the dirt - should be a lot more than real beach sand - thus backing up the claim that the soil is 'harmful' as well as just ugly. one more quick exibit for the meeting (with photos for documentation of how it was made) - take a cardboard box top (about 2*3 feet) and place a 1" deep layer of white beach sand on the right side and a 1" deep layer of the dirt on the left (sinister) side. contrast is everything - johnny gloves would have put little cutouts of children playing in the white sand side but that may be a bit overkill for this meeting

marine and aquatic biology lawsuits totally rule and this is really close to the perfect panicked screwup. screw em back, hard!

[aquaticbiology]

be the 'sensible' complainant, hustle outside any loudmouths unless the panel just won't listen or appear bought off, and if the latter is the case, then call in the press with suggestive implications and bring the loudmouths back in en masse

rest in peace, johnny gloves, we will miss you

[bsullie]

This is the most disgusting and disheartening turn of events possible. We can't be at the emergency meeting on Monday, but positive vibes will be coming your way...give 'em helll!!!!! Thanks for the great job in keeping us informed. We're sending emails today...

[Smiling JOe]

just time for a quick science experiment for the meeting - kurt, you will probably want to take photos of this for documentation with date and time displayed - grab a handful of the dirt and drop it into a mason jar of water. shake well, label and leave overnight to settle - see just how much is 'white' sand in case they say there's more 'white' sand content than there obviously is. bet you 5 bucks it's mostly decomposed peat and its about 5% white sand. also, if you can do it before the meeting, check for radon gas emmission from the dirt - should be a lot more than real beach sand - thus backing up the claim that the soil is 'harmful' as well as just ugly. one more quick exibit for the meeting (with photos for documentation of how it was made) - take a cardboard box top (about 2*3 feet) and place a 1" deep layer of white beach sand on the right side and a 1" deep layer of the dirt on the left (sinister) side. contrast is everything - johnny gloves would have put little cutouts of children playing in the white sand side but that may be a bit overkill for this meeting

marine and aquatic biology lawsuits totally rule and this is really close to the perfect panicked screwup. screw em back, hard!
Perhaps we could even add potting soil beside the dark dirt and white beach sand so that there even a bigger visual to see what that north Florida topsoil comes closest to matching. Unfortunately, I will not have any time to do this exeriment because I will not be rolling into town until just prior to the meeting. Peaboy, will you be able to do this experiment for some evidence? From past experience, I know the County Commissioners will not listen to all of this rage from us all. They will simply ask for people to bring forth new evidence for testimony. (of course emails and mail should be sent, but at the meeting, they will limit the b_tching session.) They want to see evidence. I encourage everyone to bring evidence of the problem to go with their testimony. The color chart for what is acceptable would also be a good instrument for which to compare the topsoil (new beach dirt).

[aquaticbiology]

work on the injunction ad nauseum from wherever you are - get a list of local judges phone numbers and call their clerks and try to swear out complaints over the phone, it wont work but it will bring attention to the situation in the judges busy lives who have no clue this is even happening - the law has been set via the ruling allowing the non-white sand to be used and a injunction stopping the dumping gives you the biggest edge ever on getting the bad dirt removed and good sand reapplied, also forces the county officers to notice the dirt was 'bad' because there was an injunction attempted to stop its use.

the same idiots who opposed dredging will probably be at the meeting so dont be baited, just steer them gently toward the press to let them make fools out of themselves

go for it

[peaboy]

As to the experiment offered by marinebiologist, we have a group who are conducting this for presentation on Monday. Thank you for the idea and explaination. lets hammer them on monday.

[Paula]

If you go to http://www.drbeach.org you may get information about Dr. Beach's (Dr. Stephen B. Leatherman writes from his laboratory at Florida International University) "national healthy beach campaign" (SoWal beaches are recognized among his list). You may find some data that supports the concern about the dark sand here.

"Beach material" is one of the criteria used for judging the beaches... the categories are "Fine sand Medium sand Coarse sand Cobbles Rocky/Muddy" -- this may be useful information.

For those of you who are more familiar with beach standards, you may want to go to his website to see all of the 60 criteria. It certainly serves SoWal to continue to be on his list of recognized beaches. He's the one who selects the top 10 beaches every year (Grayton was one of them several years ago).

Can't be at the meeting but certainly support the efforts of people who will be there to preserve the beauty and uniqueness of our beaches.

[Donna]

Write letters to your County Commissioners and use your local address, for those of us who reside elsewhere. Their names are listed in one of Kurt's posts to this Board. I recently wrote to Cindy Meadows and received a very well thought out response within a week. I understand that she does not approve of this one, however. I am really sad that the County does not seem to be asking the experts (read: professional biologists and geologists) at our State Parks what should be done about this. When I asked a County official why the County had not hired experts to advise on this important matter, I was told that solution was what "the experts" advised. After a couple of questions, I realized that their idea of "the experts" was contracting companies that would haul the sand-dirt in.

Keep your eye on the ball, follow the money, and never forget how to count to three in the political arena! I am writing five letters today.

[Bill]

I posted this in another thread, but am posting it here also in case everyone doesn't read all the threads.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My wife (Rita) keeps close tabs on this message board, and she showed me this thread today. Unfortunately, it no longer amazes me what some people think they can get away with. However, we need more than moral outrage to help fight this. So, I'm sharing some information with you that I hope will help you that are close enough fight a better battle (we live in Arlington, TX, but have a house in the Dune Allen area), one based more on science than emotion.

First, a little about myself. I am an agronomist with the Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS), an agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. We are the agency that helped develop the Munsell Color Chart used to classify soil color (in an earlier post, someone referred to the Soil Conservation Service - that was us before a reorganization and name change about 10 years ago). My B.S. was in Soil Science, so I am familiar with how soil and soil materials are described and classified. That's not my area of expertise now, but I can point you toward links and resources that may be useful.

For more information on the Munsell Color classification scheme for soils, go to:

http://soils.usda.gov/technical/manual/contents/chapter3f.html

Here is a brief explanation, but you really need to follow the link to see some illustrations of the system.

The Munsell color system uses three elements of color—hue, value, and chroma—to make up a color notation. The notation is recorded in the form: hue, value/chroma—for example, 5Y 6/3.

Hue is a measure of the chromatic composition of light that reaches the eye. The Munsell system is based on five principal hues: red (R), yellow (Y), green (G), blue (B), and purple (P). Five intermediate hues representing midpoints between each pair of principal hues complete the 10 major hue names used to describe the notation. The intermediate hues are yellow-red (YR), green-yellow (GY), blue-green (BG), purple-blue (PB), and red-purple (RP).

Value indicates the degree of lightness or darkness of a color in relation to a neutral gray scale. On a neutral gray (achromatic) scale, value extends from pure black (0/) to pure white (10/). Gray is perceived as about halfway between black and white and has a value notation of 5/.

Chroma is the relative purity or strength of the spectral color. Chroma indicates the degree of saturation of neutral gray by the spectral color. The scales of chroma for soils extend from /0 for neutral colors to a chroma of /8 as the strongest expression of color used for soils.

One of the posts mentioned that a Munsell color of 6.2 was the lowest value that was considered acceptable for sand added to the beach. However, the "6.2", which I assume is a Munsell "value", is meaningless without knowing what hue (the basic color) range this value is in.

The NRCS has offices in almost every county in the country, and our employees are always available to help you with questions about our soil resources. Here is contact information for three people who should be able to answer some or all of your questions. I suggest contacting them in the order they are listed:

Terry Smith
USDA-NRCS
239 John Baldwin Road, Suite 2
DeFuniak springs, FL 32433
850-892-3712 EXT. 3
Terry.Smith@fl.usda.gov

Terry is the District Conservationist in Walton Co., and if he can't answer your questions, he can contact:

Jeff Allen
USDA-NRCS
4155 Hollis Drive
Marianna, FL 32448-2708
850-482-2002 EXT. 111
Jeff.Allen@fl.usda.gov

or

Andrew Williams
USDA-NRCS
c/o Santa Rosa Co. Health Department
Environmental Health Services
5840 Gulf Breeze Parkway
Gulf Breeze, FL 32563
850-932-9824
Andrew.Williams@fl.usda.gov

This is probably way too much information for many of you, but for those of you who will be carrying the fight for our beaches, I hope this is helpful.

[Miss Kitty]

Fellow sand savers: Please help me understand how this happened. Did the gulf front homeowners request this or was this the county solution? Where do the gulf front homeowners stand on this travesty? Are there any gulf front homeowners on this board? Please speak up and let me know your reaction to this. Someone posted earlier that as sad as it is that these homes are in peril, they are enjoyed by a few. How can anyone save a house over miles of nature's beauty? I would like to think if it was my house in jeopardy, I would do the best thing for the community as a whole and not permanently damage the beaches. This is such a disaster...what will be the damage score at the end of....Hurricanes vs. Man?

[CastlesOfSand]

Just sent my 2 cents worth via email. Good luck! Keep us posted!

[Paula]

I just send my email to the commissioner list posted elsewhere expressing my strong disagreement with using the dark sand they are using in Blue Mountain Beach. Even though I can't be at the meeting, I hope my email helps prevent the use of this dark sand in SoWal.

One thing I mentioned is that gulf front property owners may or may not have a long-term investment in this area (in fact, if the dark sand damages the beauty of our beaches, perhaps some gulf front owners will leave and go to prettier beaches). Gulf front property owners will come and go, but the beaches will be here for a long, long time (ideally long after we're all gone), and we need to preserve the beauty of the beaches for the long term.

[Flipper]

I attended the emergency meeting that took place immediately after Dennis. Gulf front homes are on the edge of collapse and many were concerned that with even a rain storm their homes would be lost.
I am a beach front owner and I am as concerned as anyone with the color and quality of our beaches but the problem is THERE IS NOT ENOUGH WHITE SAND TO TAKE CARE OF THE NEEDS OF THE BEACH. The decision was made as an emergency measure to allow gulf front home owners (at their expense) to bring in a darker sand to reinforce their homes, rebuild a portion of the dunes and then to cover the darker sand with three feet of white sand.
I know of many gulf front owners that spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on approved white sand after Ivan only to see it taken by Dennis. We are one of them. We have depleted the reserves of white sand and we are left with little alternative.
Before giving our commissoners "hell" recognize that we have no viable options. Please help us with soulutions to this problem but remember there is not enough approved white sand available.
Please recognize that as gulf front owners we love this beach enough to endure the repetitive storms and still keep hangin" in there!

[sarawind]

I believe it was a hurricane that damaged the beach and the sand dunes. Not houses. The beach belongs to everyone, whether you are a Gulf front homeowner or not. Everyone uses the beach whether they live on it or not. I live on the Gulf . It is my home and I cherish it, respect it, love it. I want white sand if possible and am in favor of dredging over scraping.

[Kim Smith]

I don't believe this color of sand should have ever been considered as a viable option. My home is further down the beach but I can tell you one thing, I will fight tooth and nail to get them to stop and to get them to clean up their mess. I have been watching other areas further down the beach that have been bringing in sand, it is not pure white but it looks holy compared to the stuff.

[Cork On the Ocean]

Mainebiology, can you elaborate on the radon. Why should it be higher? How much higher? As you mentioned, if radon levels are elevated above acceptable levels, wouldn't the health implications be our strongest argument? Can any experts elaborate on this. Will be there tomorrow and bringing friends.

[BeachDreamer]

THERE IS NOT ENOUGH WHITE SAND TO TAKE CARE OF THE NEEDS OF THE BEACH.

I think the controversy is that these are not the needs of the beach. These are the needs of the beachfront homeowners. The beach will be just fine, lumbering along naturally without assistance from anyone.

But Flipper, my heart does go out to you and all beachfront owners whose homes are at stake. I am praying that a solution can be found, and that your homes can be saved. I don't think anyone is happy that your homes are being endangered. :(

[sarawind]

I think the controversy is that these are not the needs of the beach. These are the needs of the beachfront homeowners. The beach will be just fine, lumbering along naturally without assistance from anyone.

But Flipper, my heart does go out to you and all beachfront owners whose homes are at stake. I am praying that a solution can be found, and that your homes can be saved. I don't think anyone is happy that your homes are being endangered. :(

Beach front owners cover a wide variety of people. Some are single, multi, business, large companies who all pay big time taxes, bring in tourists year-round and contribute to the economy of South Walton like no other. The needs of the beach covers everyone - you and me. I'm a little tired of hearing that the renourishmnent of the beaches is for homeowners. It is for everyone who uses or profits from the fact that South Walton has (had) beautiful beaches.

[BeachDreamer]

Beach front owners cover a wide variety of people. Some are single, multi, business, large companies who all pay big time taxes, bring in tourists year-round and contribute to the economy of South Walton like no other. The needs of the beach covers everyone - you and me. I'm a little tired of hearing that the renourishmnent of the beaches is for homeowners. It is for everyone who uses or profits from the fact that South Walton has (had) beautiful beaches.

The parks seem to have weathered countless hurricanes and storms without renourishment, and are gorgeous. :idontno:

[sarawind]

The parks seem to have weathered countless hurricanes and storms without renourishment, and are gorgeous. :idontno:
Don't know what parks you are speaking of but let me put your mind to rest. It ain't gorgeous here after Hurricane Dennis and renourishment is a must for survival of this area. I think your tagline says it all.

[BeachDreamer]

Don't know what parks you are speaking of but let me put your mind to rest. It ain't gorgeous here after Hurricane Dennis and renourishment is a must for survival of this area. I think your tagline says it all.

Anyone who knows me at all can assure you that my tag is tongue-in-cheek. :roll:

[BeachDreamer]

Everything I have read has indicated that beach renourishment is entirely for the purpose of safeguarding man-made structures...

http://www.beachtobay.org/html/beach_renourishment.htm

"Pristine St. Andrews St. Park beach remains beautiful because state lands are left alone to recover naturally. ``Renourishment" is strictly for the purpose of saving structures built too close to the water's edge."

[sarawind]

Everything I have read has indicated that beach renourishment is entirely for the purpose of safeguarding man-made structures...

http://www.beachtobay.org/html/beach_renourishment.htm

"Pristine St. Andrews St. Park beach remains beautiful because state lands are left alone to recover naturally. ``Renourishment" is strictly for the purpose of saving structures built too close to the water's edge."
You are misinformed. There are pros and cons to everything under the sun. You are treading in dangerous waters when you criticize homeowners for wanting to do everything possible to protect their home. The dunes will not be restored by Mother Nature. It is the dunes that protect us, not the beach. If a tornado in east Texas tore up your man-made structure you would not have so much time to rip up folks in Florida panhandle for trying to do what they believe is right.

[BeachDreamer]

You are treading in dangerous waters when you criticize homeowners for wanting to do everything possible to protect their home. The dunes will not be restored by Mother Nature. It is the dunes that protect us, not the beach. If a tornado in east Texas tore up your man-made structure you would not have so much time to rip up folks in Florida panhandle for trying to do what they believe is right.

Sarawind, I have not made a single ripping comment on this board. I have never offered a critical comment towards homeowners trying to protect their property. You have slandered me unjustly. I have stated an opinion, which I have a right to, with all possible respect to fellow posters. Of course I don't blame you for wanting to protect your home.

As far as tornadoes, your (rather snide) remark is ironic. You have no idea of my past experience regarding them, or the man-made structures I have had devestated by them. When a tornado smashes through your backyard, there is no planned evacuation. There is only a family huddled in a bathtub with a mattress for cover, listening to the deafening roar, and thanking God that we are alive no matter what state our property is in. But hey, that's par for the course in area in which we choose to live.

I know that emotions are extremely raw on this subject, for you and anyone directly effected by this tragedy. I am sorry for it. This will be my final response.

[Smiling JOe]

The parks seem to have weathered countless hurricanes and storms without renourishment, and are gorgeous. :idontno:
Maybe that is because they didn't build on the Gulf-front. :idontno:

[Tootsie]

I attended the emergency meeting that took place immediately after Dennis. Gulf front homes are on the edge of collapse and many were concerned that with even a rain storm their homes would be lost.
I am a beach front owner and I am as concerned as anyone with the color and quality of our beaches but the problem is THERE IS NOT ENOUGH WHITE SAND TO TAKE CARE OF THE NEEDS OF THE BEACH. The decision was made as an emergency measure to allow gulf front home owners (at their expense) to bring in a darker sand to reinforce their homes, rebuild a portion of the dunes and then to cover the darker sand with three feet of white sand.
I know of many gulf front owners that spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on approved white sand after Ivan only to see it taken by Dennis. We are one of them. We have depleted the reserves of white sand and we are left with little alternative.
Before giving our commissoners "hell" recognize that we have no viable options. Please help us with soulutions to this problem but remember there is not enough approved white sand available.
Please recognize that as gulf front owners we love this beach enough to endure the repetitive storms and still keep hangin" in there!


Did you see the brown dirt that has been dumped on the beach in Blue Mountain? How can anyone even consider using BROWN DIRT on our pristine beaches? The beaches are pristine, even after storm damage, because they are an ever-changing natural environment. If homes are in danger, then they should be protected to the extent possible - but never at the expense of the entire beach environment. That's what is at stake here.

If a homeowner isn't selective about the quality of sand used on their beachfront, then what will be the effect on beaches up and down the coast? Please let DEP or someone with a coastal engineering background help determine how to renourish the beaches (including how to protect homes) - NOT WALTON COUNTY ... :pissed:

[dbuck]

Is there some reason why sand could not be blown on shore from the ocean floor? There may be a reason for this, I have just been wondering.

[Kim Smith]

I was told that there was about a 2 year "waiting list" to have this done.

[Kim Smith]

Smiling Joe or Kurt,

I hate to ask this because it seems in times of need you two always come through with much needed information as to the area and what's going on. From you posts and your feelings about our beaches, I assume one or both of you will be at the meeting. I am out of town and would love to be there but our school's have started but I did send my letters, (which were not very nice) to those officials. I was hoping one of you would be able to post what happend and if there are other things that we need to do. I appreciate all of your posts. My husband says I have become a graytonbeach.com junkie. YOU GOTTA LOVE OUR BEACHES.

[Miss Kitty]

I think I can hear plans being made and experiments being conducted all the way over here in Dallas. To our fearless crew attending the meeting tonight...I sing your praises here and thank you for being the caretakers of the beaches we all so love and treasure. Good luck...common sense is on your side and I am sending all the positive vibes I can muster!

It's probably a good thing I am here...I might just be one of those banshees that gets ejected. Wish there was a live feed via the internet tonight, but I know one of you will give the rest of us a report.

STOP THE MADNESS!!!!

[luvthebeach]

I think I can hear plans being made and experiments being conducted all the way over here in Dallas. To our fearless crew attending the meeting tonight...I sing your praises here and thank you for being the caretakers of the beaches we all so love and treasure. Good luck...common sense is on your side and I am sending all the positive vibes I can muster!

It's probably a good thing I am here...I might just be one of those banshees that gets ejected. Wish there was a live feed via the internet tonight, but I know one of you will give the rest of us a report.

STOP THE MADNESS!!!!

Ditto from St. Louis! Thanks to all of you down there who will be representing the masses who are appalled by what's happening in Blue Mountain. Hopefully you can all knock some sense into the powers-that-be and get this stopped before they destroy any more of the beautiful beaches that we all love. We can't get down there in time for the meeting, unfortunately, but thanks so much to those of you who will be our voices. You'll be in my thoughts (and prayers!) this evening. Good luck!! :clap_1:

[Sandie]

It's 8:30, hurry and let us know what happened in the meeting!!!

[lollygal]

It's 8:30, hurry and let us know what happened in the meeting!!!

I have a friend who is there and I have been trying her cell for 30 minutes -- no answer! It surely can't go on this long! :eek:

[luvthebeach]

It's 8:30, hurry and let us know what happened in the meeting!!!

You must be in the Eastern Time Zone. Walton County is Central Time Zone (1 hour behind you). I suspect we should be seeing something soon (good news, I hope!!!) Let's keep our fingers crossed :!:

[luvthebeach]

I have a friend who is there and I have been trying her cell for 30 minutes -- no answer! It surely can't go on this long! :eek:

You don't suppose they've all been hauled off to jail, do you? :blink:

[bigdaddy]

For those of us out of town can someone please let us know the thread of discussions and any decisons reached at the emergency meeting? Thanks.

[seagrover]

Apparently there are a great deal of people that showed up for the meeting. My husband was standing quite a ways from the door -on the outside.

He said it got started by someone trying to "sell" something to renourish the beaches with - and someone said something about the meeting being about the sand - he got disgusted and left so I am in the dark as well.

Maybe they ARE all behind bars - the sheriff's office is just across the street!!!

Let us know if we need to go down and get out about 500 people!!!

[seagrover]

A message that strongly needs to get to everyone is for the kids & adults to stay off the dunes. There were children playing on the newly dumped sand yesterday at our walkover.

I know some people don't know but from what I have seen, you get yelled at even louder than before if you are on the dunes.

Our "Stay off the Dunes" signs got washed away with Arlene!!!

[Smiling JOe]

Just returned from the 3.5 hr meeting. I bypassed getting groceries because I know you guys are hungry for the scoop. No one is in jail... yet, and hopefully, no one will have to go.

Summary:
The Commissioners voted 3:1 (Ro Cutchens voted against) in favor of Comm. Jones' motion to remove all dirt dumped onto the Beaches that does not meet 6.2 or higher on the chart. Since the County approved the dirt dumping, the County will pay to have any dirt not meeting that lowered standard removed. My understanding is that this dirt includes any dirt used to sure-up home structures that does not meet the 6.2 > earlier requirement.

Any new sand used to fill for emergency stability fill will have to meet a 7.2 > on the scale, and this is for unwashed sand. On top of that, a minimum of 3' of a top coat of sand will have to meet a standard of 8.1 > on the Munsell (sp?) scale.

Basically, the standards were lowered from 8.1 to 6.2 on the color chart, with the higher number being more white, in a quick and emergency panic. Now, they are raising that substandard 6.2 to 7.2 with a top coat of white stuff.


I finally met Kurt! :clap_1:

Kudos to Cindy Meadows for having the balls (I mean that in the best way) to stand up for the People of Walton County. It was weird that her motion, which was less than the motion by Larry Jones, was voted down, but Larry's was approved. I guess my ex-wife is correct, that you need a penis to get things done. I still say that Cindy has the biggest balls of them all -- you know what I mean. Thanks Cindy!

Jail time may come, if they continue to say that the brown dirt meets is a 6.2 minimum. I will definitely be in violation of removing sand from the beaches.

Also, I must say that I am proud of Ed Berry, co-owner of For the Health of It, located in Blue Mountain, for suggesting that the Commissioners think long term, and hire experts to look into new ways of resolving the problem, instead of placing very expensive bandages on symptoms of the problems. Go Ed! If you guys don't already support Ed and Rachael's business, you should begin now at For the Health of It (http://www.shopforthehealthofit.com/index.html) or do so on your next visit. They are much more than a Massage Therapy Clinic and Health Food Store -- They are our community. Also remember to support others, like Celeste Cobena, The Soap Peddler, whose products are carried by For the Health of It (http://www.shopforthehealthofit.com/index.html) and other local stores, for speaking up and voicing her well noted opinion. Thanks all!

[Miss Kitty]

Apparently there are a great deal of people that showed up for the meeting. My husband was standing quite a ways from the door -on the outside.

He said it got started by someone trying to "sell" something to renourish the beaches with - and someone said something about the meeting being about the sand - he got disgusted and left so I am in the dark as well.

Maybe they ARE all behind bars - the sheriff's office is just across the street!!!

Let us know if we need to go down and get out about 500 people!!!


This sounds encouraging...masses of sand huggers!!! If there is any justice, those that "okayed" the brown sand/soil will be the ones in jail! Sounds like there was a snake oil salesman in the audience! Wonder what that was all about? Stay strong for the beaches!

[kurt]

Results of the meeting - The short story:

The brown soil at, and adjacent to, the Hwy 83 access in Blue Mountain Beach will be removed. Any soil anywhere in the county that has already been placed on the beach must meet 6.2 or higher on the Munsell scale or be removed.

The standard that was relaxed from the longstanding 8.1 on the Munsell scale to 6.2 about 10 days ago, has been raised to a 7.2 (or higher) and must be capped by 3 feet of 8.1 or higher. So any new soil brought on to the beach must be 7.2 or higher.

The soil that is 7.2 (or higher) can only be used shore up imperiled structures (although there is no hard and fast rule to exactly where and how much), not used to build new dunes.

Samples for approval will not be washed and dried before being subjectively compared to the Munsell scale, but rather examined in an unaltered state.

[Miss Kitty]

Whoa SJ....you snuck in there before I finished my hang in there post for those of us waiting for your report! I need to read it again. Thanks so much for putting us before your tummy!

[TooFarTampa]

WOW!! You met Kurt?!?! :lol:

Seriously, thanks so much for the update. It seems like reason is prevailing somewhat. I would have loved to have been there. Did Ro Cutchins speak? Were the concerns about his possible profit aired at the meeting? Were the commissioners contrite?

I'd obviously like to know more details on the outrage/browbeating, etc, but the hard facts are good enough for me. Thanks for the update! Now go get something to eat!! :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1:

[kurt]

Just returned from the 3.5 hr meeting. I bypassed getting groceries because I know you guys are hungry for the scoop. No one is in jail... yet, and hopefully, no one will have to go.

Summary:
The Commissioners voted 3:1 (Ro Cutchens voted against) in favor of Comm. Jones' motion to remove all dirt dumped onto the Beaches that does not meet 6.2 or higher on the chart. Since the County approved the dirt dumping, the County will pay to have any dirt not meeting that lowered standard removed. My understanding is that this dirt includes any dirt used to sure-up home structures that does not meet the 6.2 > earlier requirement.

Any new sand used to fill for emergency stability fill will have to meet a 7.2 > on the scale, and this is for unwashed sand. On top of that, a minimum of 3' of a top coat of sand will have to meet a standard of 8.1 > on the Munson (sp?) scale.

Basically, the standards were lowered from 8.1 to 6.2 on the color chart, with the higher number being more white, in a quick and emergency panic. Now, they are raising that substandard 6.2 to 7.2 with a top coat of white stuff.

There are some angry people around, and the over-flowing Courtroom, lost a few folks after the break.

I finally met Kurt! :clap_1:

Thanks SJ - I was writing at the same time you were.

Joe was smiling. ;-)

[KansasBorn/30ABound]

Thanks Kurt and SJ for your reports! I am only a visitor to the area but it is so special to our family that we were praying that they would fix this dark sand/dirt problem. It was a terrible mistake...glad that is how they finally saw the error of their ways.

[Miss Kitty]

Yea!!! Our two favorite SoWal people, Kurt and SJ have finally met! That's a good thing!

[Smiling JOe]

Whoa SJ....you snuck in there before I finished my hang in there post for those of us waiting for your report! I need to read it again. Thanks so much for putting us before your tummy!
No problem, Guiness is not just for breakfast anymore.

[Smiling JOe]

Thanks Kurt and SJ for your reports! I am only a visitor to the area but it is so special to our family that we were praying that they would fix this dark sand/dirt problem. It was a terrible mistake...glad that is how they finally saw the error of their ways.

Seems to me that one error was the lack of proper checking of the dirt placed onto the beach. The Commissioners stated that they only set the policy, and the Code Enforecment and County Engineer is in charge of administering the policies. Cindy Meadows was the only Commissioner that noticed the dirt was indeed dirt and not sand, so I cannot say that the Commissioners admitted to anything. In fact, Ro, bless his heart, denied any wrong doing whatsoever, and is still convinced that the way things were done forever, is still the best way. He states that since the dirt was already aprroved and dumped, that it is okay, and that all is fine. I say we ... I change my mind, and am not saying anything.

Thanks for all of you who sent emails and wrote letters to get this meeting called to order. It is sad that the County has such a half-a_s way of communicating with its people. This meeting was fully attended by only word of mouth, so many people were unaware of it. The County has much potential for implementing better ways of doing things. By the way, Kurt hinted at running for political office, only if he had a gong to help with conducting such meetings.

[Smiling JOe]

Yea!!! Our two favorite SoWal people, Kurt and SJ have finally met! That's a good thing!

I still would have not have picked him out of a two-person line-up. Well, maybe if Ed Berry were the other person with shovel in hand. :clap_1:

[Rita]

:clap_1: Thanks Kurt, SJ, and all who were there to "pack the place" !

[kurt]

I still would have not have picked him out of a two-person line-up. Well, maybe if Ed Berry were the other person with shovel in hand. :clap_1:

I spotted you out of a line up of 200. :shock:

Although 1/2 were women and quite a few were elderly, and some were elevated with name plaques, and some had uniforms, and some had their names stitched over their pocket, and some were not smiling. :lol:

[luvthebeach]

Yea!!! Our two favorite SoWal people, Kurt and SJ have finally met! That's a good thing!

I'll second that :D But from all the postings, I had just assumed they were old friends!

Thanks to all of you who postponed dinner to stick it out for what I'm sure was a long 3.5 hours! Sounds like the meeting was a great success...wish I could have been there. I'm sure the magnitude of folks who were there in support of saving our pristine beaches sent a strong message to the powers-that-be in Walton County! :clap_1:

Now we just need to figure out how to get Ro Cutchens out of office! Sounds like he may just have an agenda of his own that takes priority over the best interest of the county! :pissed:

Thanks again to all who tot this thing going and attended...you're the best :wub:

[kurt]

:clap_1: Thanks Kurt, SJ, and all who were there to "pack the place" !

One guy spoke up and complained that he couldn't keep up with any news or official info, and did the county know of, or have a website for that sort of thing. :lol:

[TooFarTampa]

One guy spoke up and complained that he couldn't keep up with any news or official info, and did the county know of, or have a website for that sort of thing. :lol:
Did you bring your SoWal stickers and hand 'em out?? :cool:

[pk305]

Thanks ONCE AGAIN, Kurt & SJ for being our communication link!
We are so relieved with your news and will continue to buy and love the Soap Peddler products and also plan to FINALLY check out For the Health of It store per your recommendation! All for supporting the BRAVE LOCALS who speak up and voice GOOD COMMON SENSE!!
THANK YOU for being there tonight!!

[Smiling JOe]

One guy spoke up and complained that he couldn't keep up with any news or official info, and did the county know of, or have a website for that sort of thing. :lol:

Do you think he saw the SoWal.com sticker on the exit door of the Court House? :floor:

[Beach Runner]

Thank you, thank you, thank you to those who were there to protect the beautiful South Walton beaches at the meeting! :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Sandie]

I bet Ro told him about this website. :laughing1

SJ and Kurt you both ROCK!!

[RiverOtter]

Yea!!! Our two favorite SoWal people, Kurt and SJ have finally met! That's a good thing!

:blink: Ut Oh... Can these two worlds collide and co-exist :biggrin:

Great work Y'all :bow: Fight the power:!: :cool:

[katie blue]

Thanks to Kurt for your vision, to Smiling JOe for your wisdom, and to all of you who petitioned the powers in writing and in person. You all are my HEROES :wub:

[Smiling JOe]

Thanks to Kurt for your vision, to Smiling JOe for your wisdom, and to all of you who petitioned the powers in writing and in person. You all are HEROES :wub:
I thought I was the cute one? :idontno:

On a side note, for all of you who sent emails to the Commissioners, I think it would be in order for you to write them again and thank them for passing Larry Jones' motion regarding beach sand. As Celeste Cobina (I think) stated at the meeting, we should be raising our standards, not lowering them. Encourage them to continue to raise standards in all of Walton County. I also encourage a special email to Commissioner Cindy Meadows, thanking her once again for listening and taking action, even if it is going against the grain of the remainder of the Board. She is a brave soul, and I am glad that I voted for her. Thanks Cindy!

[sarawind]

Just sent emails to all commissioners thanking them for passing the motion Larry Jones proposed regarding beach sand color. The power of the people is a beautiful thing.

[wetwilly]

Thanks to all the locals and others able to attend this meeting and to SJ and Kurt for getting us the scoop on the meeting. This board is great!!!!! :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1:

As others have stated, I am very glad to hear that the commissioners have agreed to remove the dirt at the BMB access, raise the bar/standard on replacement sand, but would like to know if the commission gave any indication who and how they are going to insure that this "new" standard and policy is going to be reviewed and enforced. It appears that they did not admit any wrong doing but that they indicated that "they (the commissioners) only set the policy, and the Code Enforecment and County Engineer is in charge of administering the policies".

Since the commissioners only set them and don't enforce them and noone seemed to enforce the other standards communicated in the July 21st report, who is going to make sure that the Code Enforcement and County Engineer adheres/complies with these new policies? Did the commissioners outline the procedure, process, and who is going to make sure that the engineers will adhere? Is there any penalty of the "policy" is not adhered to?

Hopefully they discussed and communicated how this new policy was going to be enforced so this has no way of happening again. :bang:

Any info on this would be great. Again, thanks for being the eyes, ears and voices for all of us "remote locals". :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1:

[Smiling JOe]

...Since the commissioners only set them and don't enforce them and noone seemed to enforce the other standards communicated in the July 21st report, who is going to make sure that the Code Enforcement and County Engineer adheres/complies with these new policies? Did the commissioners outline the procedure, process, and who is going to make sure that the engineers will adhere? Is there any penalty of the "policy" is not adhered to?

Hopefully they discussed and communicated how this new policy was going to be enforced so this has no way of happening again. :bang: ...
There in lies the problem. I guess me and my shovels may have to make a statement. The County Engineer, I forget his name, stood up and accepted all responsibility for the dirt being placed at the public access to Blue Mtn at CR(County Road) 83. I heard someone in the audience calling for his job. The duty of checking the sand against the chart is left to the very people who let it slide the first time. I have little faith that they will see to it that all of that dirt below the 6.2 on the Munsell Scale that was illegally dumped, will get hauled off. That is why my shovel and bucket are ready for action. I know this is not the end of it, only the begining. I think I am ready for a massage from For the Health of It. I have an extra shovel and plenty of 5 gal buckets if anyone is interested. Now where can we put all of that dirt???

[wetwilly]

"Now where can we put all of that dirt???" We could bury the person that allows this to happen again?? Just a thought and I'm sure SJ and others already thought about that one. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

There should be a smily that depicts someone beinig buried in dirt.... :nono1:

[Smiling JOe]

"Now where can we put all of that dirt???" We could bury the person that allows this to happen again?? Just a thought and I'm sure SJ and others already thought about that one. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

There should be a smily that depicts someone beinig buried in dirt.... :nono1:
I am all about having fun on occasion, but I am not looking to physically injure any persons involved. I don't mind giving them my two cents worth, verbally, and installing a larger mailbox for them to handle all of the complaint letters that I will constantly encourage others to send. I know that some of you think by me mentioning Edward Abbey earlier, that I would seriously consider inflicting physical damage to the construction equipment on the beach. The last thing I want on the beach is a 20 ton loader or backhoe with a siezed engine, and a big spot of oil on what is left of the beach underneath them. I would be rather pissed if that happened. By the way, the contractors and equipment operators are just doing their job. It is the job of the County Staff to direct and monitor the work being completed on the beaches.

[CastlesOfSand]

Just wanted to say thanks for the update and WAY TO GO!!!! You guys rule!! :bow:

and by the way.....

I LOVE this site!! :wub:

[Paula]

As everyone else on this thread has said, thank you to all who went to the meeting and helped "raise the bar" for quality of life and nature in SoWal.

One way to ensure that private citizens don't use sub-quality sand is to charge them a fine and have them remove it at their own cost if they use it. That way, it would be in the interest of those who own homes (and want to sell them in the future) to stay within the County requirements.

And, of course, we need to remember to be appreciative to those private citizens who own gulf front homes and who uphold the beauty of the beaches by responsibly doing what's right without having to be monitored. As I said on an earlier post, one needs to factor in the cost and risk of hurricanes if one buys (or inherits) gulf-front property (or anywhere in Florida, but especially gulf-front) and not be surprised if a devastating hurricane hits with extremely costly consequences.

I agree with SJ and others that we shouldn't be building gulf front anyway, but since we allow it we should do it with the highest standards so that our beautiful beaches are maintained for everyone.

[Miss Kitty]

Thanks to all the locals and others able to attend this meeting and to SJ and Kurt for getting us the scoop on the meeting. This board is great!!!!! :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1:

As others have stated, I am very glad to hear that the commissioners have agreed to remove the dirt at the BMB access, raise the bar/standard on replacement sand, but would like to know if the commission gave any indication who and how they are going to insure that this "new" standard and policy is going to be reviewed and enforced. It appears that they did not admit any wrong doing but that they indicated that "they (the commissioners) only set the policy, and the Code Enforecment and County Engineer is in charge of administering the policies".

Since the commissioners only set them and don't enforce them and noone seemed to enforce the other standards communicated in the July 21st report, who is going to make sure that the Code Enforcement and County Engineer adheres/complies with these new policies? Did the commissioners outline the procedure, process, and who is going to make sure that the engineers will adhere? Is there any penalty of the "policy" is not adhered to?

Hopefully they discussed and communicated how this new policy was going to be enforced so this has no way of happening again. :bang:

Any info on this would be great. Again, thanks for being the eyes, ears and voices for all of us "remote locals". :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1:


I am so encouraged...YOU CAN FIGHT COUNTY HALL!

The above quote brings to mind one thing...it sounds like we had the fox guarding the chicken house! I have no doubt our heroes will keep us informed on the enforcement of the "NEW" policy.

SJ...I totally agree about Cindy Meadows. I was in SoWal during the elections last year and being oh so tired of the national race, I began to follow the local elections. Ms. Meadows was a bright spot in an otherwise typical mudslinging election. If I could have voted...Meadows was my choice! I'm going to write her immediately! BTW...when is Ro's term up? HINT HINT HINT!!!

[Miss Kitty]

I spotted you out of a line up of 200. :shock:

Although 1/2 were women and quite a few were elderly, and some were elevated with name plaques, and some had uniforms, and some had their names stitched over their pocket, and some were not smiling. :lol:

Sounds like an idea for a new reality show! "The Characters of Walton County"....my vote for those with real character are the ones who went and stood up for what was right and reasonable. Common sense is an underrated quality these days...thanks to everyone for sharing your common sense with those that have lost their way!

[wetwilly]

I am all about having fun on occasion, but I am not looking to physically injure any persons involved. I don't mind giving them my two cents worth, verbally, and installing a larger mailbox for them to handle all of the complaint letters that I will constantly encourage others to send. I know that some of you think by me mentioning Edward Abbey earlier, that I would seriously consider inflicting physical damage to the construction equipment on the beach. The last thing I want on the beach is a 20 ton loader or backhoe with a siezed engine, and a big spot of oil on what is left of the beach underneath them. I would be rather pissed if that happened. By the way, the contractors and equipment operators are just doing their job. It is the job of the County Staff to direct and monitor the work being completed on the beaches.

Just poking a little fun about "where to put the dirt?". :laughing1 I was not seriously suggesting that anyone should get hurt. I just hope someone is enforcing the policy going forward.

[Smiling JOe]

Just poking a little fun about "where to put the dirt?". :laughing1 I was not seriously suggesting that anyone should get hurt. I just hope someone is enforcing the policy going forward.
I know you were kidding, but I feel the need to clarify myself, due to my recent expressions of my frustration with this poop.

On another note, you all should know that most of the Gulf-front owners state that they are willing to play by the rules which they have been given, but are very upset that the local government is now changing what they already said. I, too, would be pissed. Many of these owners have already sured-up their falling properties with dirt that may have to be removed if it does not meet the 6.2 on the Munsell scale. Can't you just see Ro Cuchens, who according to several Gulf-front owners last night, is working several of the jobs at Blue Mtn, removing this dirt that does not meet the 6.2, causing the houses to fall. To the home owners, seeing the contractors excavate the dirt from around their homes would be worse than seeing Hurricane Dennis eye to eye. Some of these owners already have contracts for dirt based on what the County said earlier. Several upset homeowners stood up to say last night that due to the County's indecisive behavior, that contractors would not deliver sand to their homes. I cannot blame them. How do the contractors know that they won't have to come back at their own expense and remove it later? The County is changing faster than the tide coming in and out, and everyone should be concerned. This time it was mostly for the good in my opinion. What happens next time? This local gov't has so much potential, but they seem to be stuck in a rut, continuing to make bad reactionary decisions rather than smart pro-active ones with the long-term in mind.

The County needs to hold another emergency meeting to discuss future operations.

[jdarg]

What a nice treat to wake up, check this board, and read about such great and hard working people. Thanks for your time and concern-from all of us who only wish we could live in paradise too!

And wouldn't it be nice if everyone everywhere would care this much about where they live?

[PureBeaches]

The beaches are eroding due to natural forces of nature. Those homes that have been undermined need to be removed. That was a risk the owners took when they bought them. Remove the houses and structures and let the beach heal itself.

[Smiling JOe]

The beaches are eroding due to natural forces of nature. Those homes that have been undermined need to be removed. That was a risk the owners took when they bought them. Remove the houses and structures and let the beach heal itself.
Would this be a time when the new definition of eminent domain could be used? Would aquisition of the beach front properties be for the better good of the public? :idontno:

[Cork On the Ocean]

I have mixed feelings about the meeting. First , I know who I am voting for and against without a doubt. No Ro! :pissed: Cindy is a true leader.

I feel very sorry for the gulffront owners and the confusion regarding existing contracts to bring in 6.2 sand. Not sure what they are going to do about that. My understanding was no more 6.2 but it sounded like some owners have had it dumped and not placed and some still have more already ordered and paid for. Really feel sorry for them. It was clear that some gulf front owners were responsible and wanted to do what was right. A few others were clearly motivated by money. They saw that first ruling as an opportunity to save money on the sand to shore up their homes and they are ticked that they're gonna have to pay more.

Also, the one guy that said the white sand came from Appalachicola and dredging wouldn't do any good was elegantly addressed by the other man who has been doing the work for years. Maybe the sand came from Appalachicola many years ago but it washed into the gulf over the last year and I'm sure it hasn't migrated back to Appalachicola. It's still right out there and as he said, just pull it out of Destin pass which is constantly accreting beautiful white sand. It worked for PC and apparently worked for the New Jersey shoreline as well. Seacrest Beach has not made a decision to replace sand yet saying that they are waiting to hear about dredging permits. They indicated that they should know by about Friday

I'm not sure that I agree Joe that they are going to pull out much of the dark sand. When they were clarifying the motion, they only said that sand that didn't meet the 6.2 was being removed but I didn't really hear them say that a "washed" 6.2 had to go. I just checked with a friend who was there and she also understood that "washed" 6.2 would stay and that the standard would now be based on "unwashed". My bet is that only the mud at the BM (appropriate) :floor: public access is really going to be required to be moved and it's at our expense for their screw up but I'd rather pay than leave it there.

I still think we had a great victory, we get the BM sand moved out and we've raised the standard slightly. Basically, it was a compromise but a move in the right direction.

[Smiling JOe]

I'm not sure that I agree Joe that they are going to pull out much of the dark sand. When they were clarifying the motion, they only said that sand that didn't meet the 6.2 was being removed but I didn't really hear them say that a "washed" 6.2 had to go. I just checked with a friend who was there and she also understood that "washed" 6.2 would stay and that the standard would now be based on "unwashed".
I think you are correct, but that part about unwashed vs washed 6.2 is vague and was left unaddressed.

[Miss Kitty]

Last time I checked, washing soil made mud! What does washing do? Do they try to use Clorox and Downy for soil that is whiter and softer?

[Smiling JOe]

Last time I checked, washing soil made mud! What does washing do? Do they try to use Clorox and Downy for soil that is whiter and softer?
:floor:
Washing the soil, if it has a high content of sand, will separate the sand from the dirt. You cannot just put it in a pot and let it soak, in which case you will make mud. It has to be filtered and the debris(dirt) removed. As the County Engineer stated last night, you run it through a coffee filter a few times then microwave it. To me, it sounds like fast food. Yuck!

[Donna]

I spoke with a very nice young woman in the County Clerk's office this morning, who said that the meeting was well attended. She was trying to figure out what the decision was in detail for purposes of the minutes. But she told me that the Commission voted 3 to 1 in favor of a clarification that imported sand had to meet the .62 standard BEFORE being deposited on the beach, not that it MIGHT meet it after deposit/mixing/bleaching/etc. The latter was apparently the claim of the person who imported the brown sand to Blue Mt. Beach. That matter remains unresolved as to whether it constituted a violation, according to the young woman.

One Commissioner was absent (Brannon); three voted in favor of the .62 standard before deposit (Meadows, Pridgen, Jones); and one (Cuchens) voted against. She also said the question was raised in the meeting whether Cuchens had a conflict and he reported that he had no financial interest or relationship with the issue or properties effected by this. But it doesn't really factor in the face of how the vote went.

I also heard that there were more people in attendance at this meeting than had ever attended a County hearing, which I am hoping is good news.

Not so good news---I was also informed that the County's server went down last week and that they did not receive any e-mail since July 24 and still are not up. My e-mail to all five of the Commissioners was returned just this morning. So those of us who e-mailed letters to the County Commission on this subject were not heard unless the letters were mailed or faxed. In the interest of time, I sent mine via e-mail and to all the departments and the governor's office, too. Sent an e-mail with the letter as an attachment. I plan to send a hard copy of my letter, in view of this, even though the vote is already in. If this vote was as I understand it (and in the face of as much anger as was noted), then the Commission deserves credit for making a brave decision.

Does anyone who attended the meeting last night have a different impression of what happened there? We are very eager to hear. Thanks for feedback on this important issue.

[kurt]

See the posts above about the results of the vote. Your discussion sounds a little confused.

The standard has been raised to 7.2 or higher for any new soil starting today, with a 3-foot minimum cap of 8.1 or higher. Any soil on the beach deposited before now that is crrently below 6.2 must be removed.

Washing is out.



The largest crowd I have ever seen or heard about was at a meeting at Butler Elementary about the asphalt plant on Peach Creek. 2nd largest was probably the dog ordinance meeting at Bay school, or last night's.

Last night's meeting should have been at a bigger venue.

[Donna]

Thanks for clarification, Kurt. I was so eager for news of the meeting that I failed to scroll through pages 2 and 3. The various posts were pretty clear. When I receive the minutes from the County Clerk's office, I will post on this Board as a link. Based on my discussion, I am very eager to read them. But sounds like the Commission made a brave decision, in the face of considerable controversy. And although he made a terrible error in judgement, that County Engineer is admirable for his accountability in a forum like that. He's not been there that long, right? A tough job, to be sure, and the County has lost so many employees over the past year.

I am very disappointed that the County's e-mail server was down, so letters were not received. But it would be a good idea for those concerned to send a letter of commendation to the Commission members. I am very impressed with Cindy Meadows, who has been responsive to my stated concerns and who is often the lone brave vote on that Commission. It is always difficult to be the only woman official on that dais, up there with the "good old boys." The women tend to vote more independently and so are often ignored or shut out of the information loop. She strikes me as a well informed, well meaning, and a very courageous elected official. We may not be able to vote in Walton County, but we can raise funds to support elected officials who can protect what we hold dear. And we must keep writing.

Isn't it always the rather obscure issues that attract the largest crowds? Our best attended hearing in Napa County (600+) was over the Wine Train, whether it should be allowed to stop in the towns or not. Not was the result. But emergency sessions are typically less well attended, because when there is an urgency condition, the hearing does not even require the typical noticing. Anyway, thanks to all who managed to attend and who let the rest of us know what was happening so that we could try to make a difference.

[OhioBeachBum]

Would this be a time when the new definition of eminent domain could be used? Would aquisition of the beach front properties be for the better good of the public? :idontno:
Was surprised that specter hadn't appeared earlier, then got to thinking. Even assuming successful navigation of the throng of those with $mils to throw around in court (presuming affording mils in beach assets implies similar scale liquidity to expend on protecting same), just paying the fair market for those props would be into 10 digits (public money)... Then what? Another 10 digits to bust it up and haul it off? Then "across the road" becomes prime (and horribly expensive). Cascade that ripple effect back from the beach and eventually the closest "common folk" - translate to those with modest sub-quarter-mill incomes - could afford to get to beach accomodations would be just slightly south of Montgomery, AL :blink:

[OhioBeachBum]

See the posts above about the results of the vote. Your discussion sounds a little confused.

The standard has been raised to 7.2 or higher for any new soil starting today, with a 3-foot minimum cap of 8.1 or higher. Any soil on the beach deposited before now that is crrently below 6.2 must be removed.

Washing is out.

BTW - I took some pix (last Fri or Sat afternoon) of what was being dumped down to replace what washed out seaward of Pompano Joe's parking lot. Kinda brown looking. Forgot to bring images with me today - I'll upload tomorrow AM.

[PureBeaches]

It may not take using eminent domain and the purchase of those houses to have them removed. Once the beach line moves inland such that those homes are now on "public access" beach, the owner may be responsible for removing them.

For example, in Galveston, Texas erosion of the beaches has caused the mean high tide line to move behind or under some homes. Therefore they are now on Land owned by the State of Texas. The land the homeowner's had owned when they built their homes is gone. Under Texas law, the homeowner's are responsible for removal of their homes. Florida law of course may be different.

Don't let the beaches be destroyed just to save a couple of private individuals vacation homes. It was a risk they took when they bought on the beach.

[sarawind]

It may not take using eminent domain and the purchase of those houses to have them removed. Once the beach line moves inland such that those homes are now on "public access" beach, the owner may be responsible for removing them.

For example, in Galveston, Texas erosion of the beaches has caused the mean high tide line to move behind or under some homes. Therefore they are now on Land owned by the State of Texas. The land the homeowner's had owned when they built their homes is gone. Under Texas law, the homeowner's are responsible for removal of their homes. Florida law of course may be different.

Don't let the beaches be destroyed just to save a couple of private individuals vacation homes. It was a risk they took when they bought on the beach.How is the beach being destroyed by private homes? Are you talking about the dark sand that is being dumped at Blue Mountain? Please explain.

[sarawind]

It may not take using eminent domain and the purchase of those houses to have them removed. Once the beach line moves inland such that those homes are now on "public access" beach, the owner may be responsible for removing them.

For example, in Galveston, Texas erosion of the beaches has caused the mean high tide line to move behind or under some homes. Therefore they are now on Land owned by the State of Texas. The land the homeowner's had owned when they built their homes is gone. Under Texas law, the homeowner's are responsible for removal of their homes. Florida law of course may be different.

Don't let the beaches be destroyed just to save a couple of private individuals vacation homes. It was a risk they took when they bought on the beach.Where did you get your info on Galveston? I read that the hurricane damaged houses were built without following legal guidelines and are the only private dwellings involved. Also, when did the Texas Land Grant office make this ruling as I read the decision has been delayed.

[katie blue]

[QUOTE=sarawind]How is the beach being destroyed by private homes? [QUOTE]

hi sarawind-
i'm a complete novice to this, but he may be referring to the issue that a beach is an organic thing, naturally shifting with time. And gulffront construction creates a "permanent" wall that impedes the natural regeneration of beaches and dunes, for a number of reasons. for one example, dunes are created by wind-blown sand. buildings near the dune line create a wind barrier--ie, the wind can not "blow through"--and thus the dune can not regenerate itself once damaged. erosion becomes inevitable. this can be evidenced throughout walton county. we still have dunes, but only in areas with minimal or no coastal construction.

i can't imagine gulffront owners ever willingly giving up their property though. as we're learning, money talks. however, i wonder if in the future gulffront houses could become more eco-friendly, allowing for a more aerodynamic shift of sand and wind? or perhaps mandating that gulffront house be temporary/movable structures that do not require creating immovable seawalls and foundations?

kate

[Smiling JOe]

[QUOTE=sarawind]How is the beach being destroyed by private homes? [QUOTE]

hi sarawind-
i'm a complete novice to this, but he may be referring to the issue that a beach is an organic thing, naturally shifting with time. And gulffront construction creates a "permanent" wall that impedes the natural regeneration of beaches and dunes, for a number of reasons. for one example, dunes are created by wind-blown sand. buildings near the dune line create a wind barrier--ie, the wind can not "blow through"--and thus the dune can not regenerate itself once damaged. erosion becomes inevitable. this can be evidenced throughout walton county. we still have dunes, but only in areas with minimal or no coastal construction.

i can't imagine gulffront owners ever willingly giving up their property though. as we're learning, money talks. however, i wonder if in the future gulffront houses could become more eco-friendly, allowing for a more aerodynamic shift of sand and wind? or perhaps mandating that gulffront house be temporary/movable structures that do not require creating immovable seawalls and foundations?

kate


I told you she was smart. :clap_1:

[ShallowsNole]

I take issue to the comments in this and other threads - and to the reports - that the damaged/destroyed properties more or less brought it on themselves by building how and where they did. Speaking as a private citizen and a life-long SoWal, most of the private houses that were built on slabs and are in danger of collapsing - particularly at Blue Mountain Beach - were built long, long ago. Another thread mentions that they were sited seaward of the coastal construction line. Well, sure they are now - but when they were built, there was PLENTY of back yard between the back of the house and the bluff.

While I'm sure that most of those properties are no longer owned by the families that built them, I would not say that there was a lapse of judgment on anyone's part. I personally never envisioned that much erosion. I also guess that we are all a bit stressed.

[Smiling JOe]

I take issue to the comments in this and other threads - and to the reports - that the damaged/destroyed properties more or less brought it on themselves by building how and where they did. Speaking as a private citizen and a life-long SoWal, most of the private houses that were built on slabs and are in danger of collapsing - particularly at Blue Mountain Beach - were built long, long ago. Another thread mentions that they were sited seaward of the coastal construction line. Well, sure they are now - but when they were built, there was PLENTY of back yard between the back of the house and the bluff.

While I'm sure that most of those properties are no longer owned by the families that built them, I would not say that there was a lapse of judgment on anyone's part. I personally never envisioned that much erosion. I also guess that we are all a bit stressed.
If I had 100 feet of Gulf-front yard, it would not be enough for me. As I mentioned, change is inevitable. Build on or near a body of water, and you need to consider time and change and the effects they could potentially have on your property. High or low, you may get wet, or fall down. When people try to stand up eye-to-eye with Mother Nature, she is likely to slap you in the face from time to time. This is just my observation. I have seen first hand and understand the importance of barrier islands as a buffer from the mainland, and I know that I take a risk by building here. I also know the importance of primary and secondary dunes. We don't have many dunes left, just elevated land, probably backfilled by man, I don't know. In my opinion if you build or buy in front of secondary dunes you are asking for trouble, yet these homes are built on top of what at one time may have been primary dunes. I guess I will shut up now and let Mother Nature take over.

[Wildernester]

Many of us have built our houses on sand. In doing so, we should accept the risk along with the reward. The fact that there is sand is an indication that water and wind have been there before. It's a pretty good bet that Mother Nature, or whatever you choose to call that cosmic force, will send it there again, regardless of what we do.

Let's direct our efforts to keeping whatever Mother gives us as pristine as possible, so that while it is here, we and others can enjoy it. As I sit on the beach at sunset and see beer cans, cigarette butts and candy wrappers, I wonder if we deserve whatever beach we are given. And while my vehicle bears a beach drivng permit, I am having second thoughts. Without warning, it, too, could deposit the contents of its crankcase on the beach.

[kurt]

Many of us have built our houses on sand. In doing so, we should accept the risk along with the reward. The fact that there is sand is an indication that water and wind have been there before. It's a pretty good bet that Mother Nature, or whatever you choose to call that cosmic force, will send it there again, regardless of what we do.

Let's direct our efforts to keeping whatever Mother gives us as pristine as possible, so that while it is here, we and others can enjoy it. As I sit on the beach at sunset and see beer cans, cigarette butts and candy wrappers, I wonder if we deserve whatever beach we are given. And while my vehicle bears a beach drivng permit, I am having second thoughts. Without warning, it, too, could deposit the contents of its crankcase on the beach.

Just like a good dog owner, you would clean up your vehicle's poop. ;-)

I am trying to focus on the "smaller" things I know I can get done or help get done - education, sand fencing, litter cleanup, dune protection, debris removal, lake protection, etc.

[sarawind]

If I had 100 feet of Gulf-front yard, it would not be enough for me. As I mentioned, change is inevitable. Build on or near a body of water, and you need to consider time and change and the effects they could potentially have on your property. High or low, you may get wet, or fall down. When people try to stand up eye-to-eye with Mother Nature, she is likely to slap you in the face from time to time. This is just my observation. I have seen first hand and understand the importance of barrier islands as a buffer from the mainland, and I know that I take a risk by building here. I also know the importance of primary and secondary dunes. We don't have many dunes left, just elevated land, probably backfilled by man, I don't know. In my opinion if you build or buy in front of secondary dunes you are asking for trouble, yet these homes are built on top of what at one time may have been primary dunes. I guess I will shut up now and let Mother Nature take over.I also take issue with the comments that the damage was done by homeowners - the damage was done by storms. My gulf front property was built along guidelines set up by the government and followed to a 't'. These guidelines change from time to time and will continue as circumstances change. Maybe the " let's blame the homeowners crowd" are folks pea green with envy.
I have seen so much damage done here by tourists that it's sickening. Sliding down dunes on
plastic garbage bags, boogie boards, etc. I've seem them throw garbage on dunes and beach, let their dogs poop and just keep on walking. No one takes them to task or even considers educating them. I've seen them dig big pits for fires at night and leave them, I've picked up enough trash on the beach to build a mountain. As a homeowner here who loves this area and it's people I deeply resent being blamed for all the wrongs that storms have wrought. The suggestion that beach front homes be taken from homeowners is beyond the pale. If my home can be 'taken' from me, then I ask, is your home safe?

[kurt]

Maybe the " let's blame the homeowners crowd" are folks pea green with envy.

I know all gulf front homeowners don't look down on beachgoers with disgust, that would be so sad if true. On the flip side there are probably some beachgoers who look up at homeowners not with envy, but disgust.

Maybe you're right. Maybe it is just a "have" vs. a "have not" issue. But realize, and accept without resentment, that the general public believes there would be no crisis, or restoration issues, if there existed no development too close to the water. The fear is that attempting to "correct" the beach environment will harm it, which has happened here and elsewhere. It is a fear of development and the destruction of nature, which of course many gulf front homeowners also fear.

I understand how you might take some posts on this board personally. But on the bright side, hopefully other information and perspectives can help by adding insight to your predicament and even possible help and solutions. I see all sides represented here. There are more people that don't own gulf front than do, so expect more posts from those that don't. I'd like to see more input from gulf front owners, but I know many are busy taking care of business and property.



I have seen so much damage done here by tourists that it's sickening. Sliding down dunes on plastic garbage bags, boogie boards, etc. I've seem them throw garbage on dunes and beach, let their dogs poop and just keep on walking. No one takes them to task or even considers educating them. I've seen them dig big pits for fires at night and leave them, I've picked up enough trash on the beach to build a mountain. As a homeowner here who loves this area and it's people I deeply resent being blamed for all the wrongs that storms have wrought. The suggestion that beach front homes be taken from homeowners is beyond the pale. If my home can be 'taken' from me, then I ask, is your home safe?

A lot of which you speak is discussed on this forum often. a lot of education goes on right here. As well as ways to spread the word and help our community. If you check out some of the other threads and posts (over 13,000 now) you will see that. It is one of the main reasons I keep the forum going. To be part of the solution and not the problem.

[sarawind]

"A lot of which you speak is discussed on this forum often. a lot of education goes on right here. As well as ways to spread the word and help our community. If you check out some of the other threads and posts (over 13,000 now) you will see that. It is one of the main reasons I keep the forum going. To be part of the solution and not the problem."

I applaud the education that goes on here and am mighty grateful for it! I should have stated my thoughts better. I don't look down on anyone but I do not appreciate beach goers that come here and show little or no respect for public and private property. What I would love to see is a better effort on the part of the federal, state, county and local government educating the public about the beaches and dunes. I suppose that in a 'perfect' world the beaches would be left untouched by man only to be viewed from afar. Alas, this isn't a perfect world nor or we perfect people. All we can do is the best we can. In reading the threads on this forum it is heart warming to realize so many people from near and far are passionate about the beaches and dunes.

[kurt]

I applaud the education that goes on here and am mighty grateful for it! I should have stated my thoughts better. I don't look down on anyone but I do not appreciate beach goers that come here and show little or no respect for public and private property. What I would love to see is a better effort on the part of the federal, state, county and local government educating the public about the beaches and dunes. I suppose that in a 'perfect' world the beaches would be left untouched by man only to be viewed from afar. Alas, this isn't a perfect world nor or we perfect people. All we can do is the best we can. In reading the threads on this forum it is heart warming to realize so many people from near and far are passionate about the beaches and dunes.

That would be an extremely imperfect world where I wouldn't want to be.

A lot of education can be done on the grass roots level, which we all can do, while pushing a bit for help from the government.

[Carter]

Where did you get your info on Galveston? I read that the hurricane damaged houses were built without following legal guidelines and are the only private dwellings involved. Also, when did the Texas Land Grant office make this ruling as I read the decision has been delayed.

I own a gulf front beach house south of Galveston. I can confirm that there are indeed a number of properties that are now in the public right of way (i.e. *on* the beach, you actually even have to go under some of these houses (all houses on pilings) at high tide when walking the beach) and are slated to be removed by state of TX.

All TX deeds (since 1984 I think) have caveat emptor language that says in effect: If your property ends up on public property (the beach) due to shifting coast, you are SOL.

While many of these properties were presumably not built so close to the beach 5,10,20,30 years ago, mother nature has moved the mean high tideline in an unfortunate direction, in some cases dramatically. By TX law, these houses are now illegal (many as result of hurricane a few years back).

There is currently a 2 year GLO issued moratorium regarding removal (moratorium meter started about a year ago, so about a year left) after which time the GLO (TX Gen Land Office) has said 'we understand this sucks for you MR/Ms homeowner, but the law is clear and you need to move or we will move you'.

GLO I believe is also offering some financial assistance to homeoners within the moratorium timeframe as an incentive. Carrot and stick thing, b/c if individual homeowners choose to stay/litigate beyond moratorium they lose the financial assistance option.

Anyway, not sure this is all that helpful or even interesting, but, you know, I'm never one to pass up an opportuntity to sound marginally intelligent in a public forum. (Kurt- I need a Cliff Claven icon: "Well, actually Narm, it's a little known fact that....") ;-)

[Miss Kitty]

I also take issue with the comments that the damage was done by homeowners - the damage was done by storms. My gulf front property was built along guidelines set up by the government and followed to a 't'. These guidelines change from time to time and will continue as circumstances change. Maybe the " let's blame the homeowners crowd" are folks pea green with envy.
I have seen so much damage done here by tourists that it's sickening. Sliding down dunes on
plastic garbage bags, boogie boards, etc. I've seem them throw garbage on dunes and beach, let their dogs poop and just keep on walking. No one takes them to task or even considers educating them. I've seen them dig big pits for fires at night and leave them, I've picked up enough trash on the beach to build a mountain. As a homeowner here who loves this area and it's people I deeply resent being blamed for all the wrongs that storms have wrought. The suggestion that beach front homes be taken from homeowners is beyond the pale. If my home can be 'taken' from me, then I ask, is your home safe?

"pea green with envy"...jeez, I certainly hope you don't really believe this!! I hear frustration and stress in your post and as we all tend to do you seem to be finding a way to cope with your situation. I can't blame you for that...I posted earlier that if found in your situation, I would like to think I would protect the natural resources before protecting my "second" home. We are not gulf front, but I remember freaking out over Ivan possibly damaging south facing windows on our second and third floor home south of 30-A. I finally came to my senses and realized it was all insured and it was just "THINGS" and the real threat was to the things that man cannot replace. (like the umbrella pines on Western Lake...right Kurt?!!)

We all take a risk owning in a beach habitat...gulf front owners bearing the biggest risk. We have taken many walks on the beach since 1986 and used to dream of owning gulf front...actually we would have taken anything!!! We considered you "lucky stiffs"! I don't do envy. When you build on sand, things are going to shift and when the land is gone, it is gone!...you must have thought this out before purchasing your home. I hope for recovery for allof youl on the gulf and that if rebuilding is in the future everyone looks to the future and not to a quick fix (brown soil on the beach).

Whew, getting dizzy up here on the soapbox. Thanks for letting ME vent! Remember, this is my opinion and it was not intended to offend anyone. I am always looking to be educated and welcome your response!

[kurt]

The DEP has determined that the dark soil on Blue Mountain Beach is a 4 on the Munsell scale and would have directed it to be removed had the county not done so.

[aquaticbiology]

The DEP has determined that the dark soil on Blue Mountain Beach is a 4 on the Munsell scale and would have directed it to be removed had the county not done so.

five months later on sunday

[bsullie]

Have searched the Board for what PCB did in the way of beach restoration. Deemed a success and why? Thanks!

[Smiling JOe]

I also take issue with the comments that the damage was done by homeowners - the damage was done by storms. My gulf front property was built along guidelines set up by the government and followed to a 't'. These guidelines change from time to time and will continue as circumstances change. Maybe the " let's blame the homeowners crowd" are folks pea green with envy.
I have seen so much damage done here by tourists that it's sickening. Sliding down dunes on
plastic garbage bags, boogie boards, etc. I've seem them throw garbage on dunes and beach, let their dogs poop and just keep on walking. No one takes them to task or even considers educating them. I've seen them dig big pits for fires at night and leave them, I've picked up enough trash on the beach to build a mountain. As a homeowner here who loves this area and it's people I deeply resent being blamed for all the wrongs that storms have wrought. The suggestion that beach front homes be taken from homeowners is beyond the pale. If my home can be 'taken' from me, then I ask, is your home safe?
Just want to correct you on a few things.

I don't blame homeowners for the damage. I only state that based on deduction, if you build your home on the rim of the Grand Canyon, get ready to rent a big crane to remove it from the bottom. That is a risk you take. It does not matter if your building meets new codes when there is no longer any earth to support it.

Regarding no one taking people to tasks or educating them on ideas of not leaving garbage on the beach, including dog poop, perma tents, etc., you have not been reading my posts or many others' posts. Go back to before posts before sharks and hurricanes. There are numerous examples.

Regarding the taking of Gulf-front homes. I was using a twisted sense of humor. If you read earlier posts, you will see that we are all pissed about the ruling of the Court concerning eminent domain. We are all at risk.

As I stated in a recent post, my home is at risk and I took that into consideration when moving into Hurricane Alley. In fact, all I have, including my life, is at risk every day in this mixed up world. Here today, gone tomorrow. I fully understand the way of life, although there are a few missing pieces in between the two ends.

[JB]

I *think* PCB did a full-scale dredging project designed to not only restore dunes, but widen the beaches. This was the approach I advocated for Walton County. It is, however, VERY expensive and I understand why they didn't go that route. But if we get another storm, it may be the only remaining option.

[bsullie]

I *think* PCB did a full-scale dredging project designed to not only restore dunes, but widen the beaches. This was the approach I advocated for Walton County. It is, however, VERY expensive and I understand why they didn't go that route. But if we get another storm, it may be the only remaining option.

How was the project funded? Based on what we saw on our last trip, the beaches seem to be faring well. Guess it was a LONG project? Hope the county re-thinks this option. Whadayathink?

[JB]

How was the project funded? Based on what we saw on our last trip, the beaches seem to be faring well. Guess it was a LONG project? Hope the county re-thinks this option. Whadayathink?

I have no idea how they payed for it. I'm sure someone here does. My guess is they either implemented a tax increase or floated a bond issue.

[Smiling JOe]

MarineBiology451, or anyone else who knows,
What are some of known and potential effects of dredging the sand and pumping it onto the beach?

[Beachlover2]

I can't imagine dredging not effecting the marine life - we are entering their environment - not just to visit as in swimming or surfing - but relocating it much like a hurricane or tornado.

I am so torn on this subject.

[SlowMovin]

Regarding the taking of Gulf-front homes. I was using a twisted sense of humor. If you read earlier posts, you will see that we are all pissed about the ruling of the Court concerning eminent domain.

Thank you for clearing that up. I have started--and then self-deleted, due to too much temper--three responses to the original post you made wrt eminent domain. I'm glad to see it was not meant seriously (although I worry that some readers may have taken it as such and agreed).

This eminent domain issue is an even bigger problem, IMHO. I can live with the risk that I may lose my properties due to natural disasters. I can even accept (albeit unhappily) that they may be seized to make way for a highway, utility right-of-way, etc. But I cannot abide the thought that the government might decide to simply give them to someone else for their own private gain.

[luvthebeach]

Thank you for clearing that up. I have started--and then self-deleted, due to too much temper--three responses to the original post you made wrt eminent domain. I'm glad to see it was not meant seriously (although I worry that some readers may have taken it as such and agreed).

This eminent domain issue is an even bigger problem, IMHO. I can live with the risk that I may lose my properties due to natural disasters. I can even accept (albeit unhappily) that they may be seized to make way for a highway, utility right-of-way, etc. But I cannot abide the thought that the government might decide to simply give them to someone else for their own private gain.

I think the majority of us who've been keeping up with the posts and come to know (and enjoy) Smilin Joe's sense of humor knew it was just a tongue-in-cheek comment :D

If anything, I took it as a jab at the ridiculousness of the emminent domain takeovers that have been reported by the news media lately.

[Smiling JOe]

...This eminent domain issue is an even bigger problem, IMHO. I can live with the risk that I may lose my properties due to natural disasters. I can even accept (albeit unhappily) that they may be seized to make way for a highway, utility right-of-way, etc. But I cannot abide the thought that the government might decide to simply give them to someone else for their own private gain.
Watch out, you are in Walton County and Cindy Meadows has only one vote.

[SlowMovin]

Watch out, you are in Walton County and Cindy Meadows has only one vote.

I know...believe me, I am worried.

I understand that Florida has somewhat stronger protections against eminent domain abuse than some states, but I don't think it's enough. Worse, there have been some attempts to weaken what protection there is. Unless something gets put in place to stop it now (while the Kelo v. New London ruling is still fresh), then I fully expect it to start happening in South Walton before the end of this decade. Those most at risk will be the older single-family dwellings on or near the beach (you listening, Grayton?).

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Maybe we should start a new one (or re-start the old one) on this subject.

[kurt]

I know...believe me, I am worried.

I understand that Florida has somewhat stronger protections against eminent domain abuse than some states, but I don't think it's enough. Worse, there have been some attempts to weaken what protection there is. Unless something gets put in place to stop it now (while the Kelo v. New London ruling is still fresh), then I fully expect it to start happening in South Walton before the end of this decade. Those most at risk will be the older single-family dwellings on or near the beach (you listening, Grayton?).

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Maybe we should start a new one (or re-start the old one) on this subject.

Who knows what will happen in the future. I believe it would take so much money to buy gulf front properties that we would have to stop making bombs. So you are safe.

Although, if I were a gulf front owner right now I might welcome a nice offer from the people instead of losing all through eminent domain by the next hurricane.

[Smiling JOe]

Who knows what will happen in the future. I believe it would take so much money to buy gulf front properties that we would have to stop making bombs. So you are safe.

Although, if I were a gulf front owner right now I might welcome a nice offer from the people instead of losing all through eminent domain by the next hurricane.

In theory, just as someone mentioned about Gal., TX, if we get hit hard by more forceful storms and much more erosion is caused, you may not own enough property onto which to build anything. As a Gulf-front owner, you own to the Mean High Tide level (correct me if I am wrong) which will vary over time. If that line moves to the roadside of your property, you don't own anything. If all of your buildable lot is washed out to see, the property value decreases to nothing and could be easy pickings for the Gov't to take for cheap. I doubt it will happen like this at any time in the near future, but it sure sounds potentially feasible in theory. The price that the Gov't has to pay is the fair market value at the time of the taking. If there is no buildable space, the fair market value would be very low.

[SlowMovin]

I believe it would take so much money to buy gulf front properties that we would have to stop making bombs. So you are safe.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I don't have full facts on this yet but I don't think the government has to pay the going market price. My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the government hires an appraisor who sets a price based upon his/her inspection of the property. If the owner rejects the price, it goes to court ordered mediation. If no settlement is still reached, it goes to a jury which determines the price.

Without going into all the possibilities, I can see a lot of peril for the (former) homeowner in the above process.

[OhioBeachBum]

The suggestion that beach front homes be taken from homeowners is beyond the pale. If my home can be 'taken' from me, then I ask, is your home safe?
Unfortunately, my home, near a thousand miles from any ocean beach, is not "safe" either. Any collection of govermental manjacks who can put together a semi-plausable justification can heist my home (and any other tangible assets for that matter), using any number of legal "vehicles", all alleged to be in the "public interest". :(
Things have gotten pretty screwy in the last 25 years...

[Beachlover2]

It isn't just the last 25 years - my parents lost their home some 45 years ago because the city needed the property for a parking lot. They fought it - but in the end lost the battle and had to take what the judge determined to be "fair".

[OhioBeachBum]

I know...believe me, I am worried.
I understand that Florida has somewhat stronger protections against eminent domain abuse than some states, but I don't think it's enough. Worse, there have been some attempts to weaken what protection there is. Unless something gets put in place to stop it now (while the Kelo v. New London ruling is still fresh), then I fully expect it to start happening in South Walton before the end of this decade.
There is already noise in Ohio congressional circles about a legislatively imposed 2-year moritorium on ANY exercise of eminent domain in the state - while the subject is "studied" to consider what if any subsequent legislation may be neccessary to eliminate, or at least severely hobble, the doors opened by that ruling. And this in a state that has been quite busy seizing private assets under various other (forfeiture) laws.

Interesting that the outcry didn't begin until some of the deeper pocket folks began to vew themselves and their assets as potentially "vunerable"...

[JB]

If there is one positive to Florida's eminent domain laws, it is that the state must pay "fair market value" for any property it claims under E.D. Case in point is the guy in the 'glades who held out for years against the state. He ended up pocketing $4 million for a piece of property not worth half that.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/06/everglades.holdout.ap/

[Fanceenan]

I agree with ShallowsNole and Sarawind! I am a gulf front owner at Blue Mtn Beach. We bought our place 20 years ago and did not dream it could fall into the ocean! We had probably 40 feet or so of sanddunes in front of us. I am a retired teacher and my husband is a state employee. We are not rich. I am pleased they have increased quality of the sand at BMB and elsewhere, but you folks really do offend me with your " they got what they deserved attitude". We followed the rules at the time. We did not build illegally; we have worked hard to keep our place. All the other hurricanes, including Opal, did not affect us like this one has! Remember, not all gulf front owners are millionaires! I want a beautiful beach too. Isn't there some way to improve the beaches and NOT have us fall into the ocean! I really enjoy reading and keeping up with the news on this site! This time is difficult enough for us, without having people gloating and saying we got what we deserved! We did not deserve this!!!
.

[TooFarTampa]

I agree with ShallowsNole and Sarawind! I am a gulf front owner at Blue Mtn Beach. We bought our place 20 years ago and did not dream it could fall into the ocean! We had probably 40 feet or so of sanddunes in front of us. I am a retired teacher and my husband is a state employee. We are not rich. I am pleased they have increased quality of the sand at BMB and elsewhere, but you folks really do offend me with your " they got what they deserved attitude". We followed the rules at the time. We did not build illegally; we have worked hard to keep our place. All the other hurricanes, including Opal, did not affect us like this one has! Remember, not all gulf front owners are millionaires! I want a beautiful beach too. Isn't there some way to improve the beaches and NOT have us fall into the ocean! I really enjoy reading and keeping up with the news on this site! This time is difficult enough for us, without having people gloating and saying we got what we deserved! We did not deserve this!!!
.

I don't think anyone is gloating over what you are going through. I am sure this is a difficult and stressful time and I feel for you, as do the vast majority of us here.

The issue here is planning. If anyone is pooh-poohed or disregarded it is coastal experts, who as noted in other threads are generally academics and often not listened to because they are too negative. Well, the truth hurts. I'm not saying I have all the answers, and who knows what my opinion would have been 10 years ago, but structures that were approved and followed the county rules precisely still may not really belong there in the first place. The problem is it is so, so hard to take "the long view" when nobody can really project what will happen 10 or 50 years in the future. There is easy money to be made, by both developers and county and state governments, and there is a market for the product. Who wouldn't want to look out their back windows and see beautiful emerald waters and sugar white sand? So the development itself was inevitable. But as someone posted earlier in this thread, Mother Nature doesn't even know your house is there. (Great line, btw.)

Interesting -- I read a study online at the DEP's site about coastal erosion in Walton County. It was dated 2000, well before the development was rampant and the density increased dramatically. There was nothing in it to suggest that dramatic erosion was expected, unless a major storm came in (a la Opal) and ate away at the dunes. Which is obviously what has happened.

My question is, how will the increased density affect Mother Nature's natural ability to eventually restore the beaches? Has it gotten so we have no choice but to keep scraping and dredging? Beyond the need to help the homeowners who have gotten into this predicament, where do we go from here? Time to call in the academics...

[Smiling JOe]

I agree with ShallowsNole and Sarawind! I am a gulf front owner at Blue Mtn Beach. We bought our place 20 years ago and did not dream it could fall into the ocean! We had probably 40 feet or so of sanddunes in front of us. I am a retired teacher and my husband is a state employee. We are not rich. I am pleased they have increased quality of the sand at BMB and elsewhere, but you folks really do offend me with your " they got what they deserved attitude". We followed the rules at the time. We did not build illegally; we have worked hard to keep our place. All the other hurricanes, including Opal, did not affect us like this one has! Remember, not all gulf front owners are millionaires! I want a beautiful beach too. Isn't there some way to improve the beaches and NOT have us fall into the ocean! I really enjoy reading and keeping up with the news on this site! This time is difficult enough for us, without having people gloating and saying we got what we deserved! We did not deserve this!!!
.
To clarify my previous statements, no matter how bad ones Karma may be, they don't "deserve" punishment. If I said so, it was in error. I do not know how to better say, in the bigger picture of life, that if you live on the edge, you are likely to get hurt. Only 40 feet of sand between you and the edge of the Gulf would be scarry to me, even before Opal. We live near a large body of water, that is known to be forceful and can reshape the earth in a matter of minutes. Simple deductive reasoning should raise a red flag when considering purchasing such a place. All that being said, you don't "deserve" punishment for your action of purchasing Gulf-front. You cannot run from Mother Nature, so you better learn to live with her ebb and flow.

[sarawind]

Time to use good common sense like the county did after Hurricane Opal. The method used then saved this beach for nearly 10 years. This is my personal experience on how the 'governnment' in South Walton works. A few days ago, I went to the annex to get a permit to repair our beach walkover. The first person had no idea what I wanted and sent me to person 2. Person 2 said, 'Oh, I''ve been here 3 months and don't know anything about permits. Person 3 got all excited and exclaimed, 'oh, I don't do hurricanes'. Person 4 told me he had only been on the job one day and as he came from the east coast he had no idea how to help me. Person 5 sent me to the tax collector who sent me to person 6 who told me to go to person 7 and get a copy of my deed. I still don't have a permit. I'm on a quest now.

[sarawind]

Maybe all the folks in California should have had the good sense not to build there as earthquakes happen. They must leave their homes, doncha think? Everyone along a river bank or on any coastal lands in the United States better pack up. Lightning may strike and tornadoes may spin by so people who live around that possibility better hit the road. Everyone around Mt. St. Helens should relocate. My word, stuff happens. Please belay the preaching.

[luvthebeach]

I agree with ShallowsNole and Sarawind! I am a gulf front owner at Blue Mtn Beach. We bought our place 20 years ago and did not dream it could fall into the ocean! We had probably 40 feet or so of sanddunes in front of us. I am a retired teacher and my husband is a state employee. We are not rich. I am pleased they have increased quality of the sand at BMB and elsewhere, but you folks really do offend me with your " they got what they deserved attitude". We followed the rules at the time. We did not build illegally; we have worked hard to keep our place. All the other hurricanes, including Opal, did not affect us like this one has! Remember, not all gulf front ow