Can anyone tell me what beaches are considered public and which are private?

A pretty loaded question. Depends who you ask?

__________________
"You are your choices"
www.lifeonshore.com
http://bobbyjblog.com

Yeah, I get a lot of head scratching when I ask that.

They're all public and if you need to dispute that point I have some extra golf clubs.

__________________
The enemy is ignorance.

Okay. I will stir the pot. They are all public. That would be my take on things based on customary usage.

__________________
"You are your choices"
www.lifeonshore.com
http://bobbyjblog.com

Good timing scooter. We must have pushed reply about the same time.

__________________
"You are your choices"
www.lifeonshore.com
http://bobbyjblog.com

My beach is "private". My walkover is "private". My driveway is "private". As long as you don't use my walkover or driveway to get to my "private" beach you are entitled to "customary" use of my "private" beach. You may walk across it, sit on it, dig in the sand and generally enjoy yourself provided you break no law. I believe this is what "customary" use of the beach means. Also, you may use the walkover or driveway to access my "private" beach with any owner's permission. Is all this fairly transparent?

__________________
Speak out freely...Hold to the truth...Question boldly.

just take your video camera and hit the record button if ANYONE gives you any hassle for being on the beach. Try to get any witness names and contact info.

__________________

Some of you guys are so adamant about "customary" use that you make it seem like a fight is brewing for everybody that ventures on to the sand. Most homeowners are not that mean! For every property that posts a sign, there are many more that live and let live. Untill the issue is truly settled, let's try to get along! If you really want to steer clear of controversy, access the beach at one of the county walkovers or state parks and stay reasonably near the waterline if you want to take a walk. I am sorry that I can see both sides of this controversy! The world is much easier for those who see things as black or white.

Tonight at the south walton annex the planning commission meeting has on its agenda a plan by the BMB homeowners to privatize the beach. That is at 6:00 I think. Please check the web site and agenda for more accurate info as I am speaking from a casual conversation a few days ago, and may be misstating
the crux of the issue.

Being adamant about customary use is what helps keep it customary. Have you all seen the beach mess in Destin, California, etc. If we don't keep watching over these so called "private" beach issues we will not even have the county walkovers to go to. History has proven that the county will not always protect our rights when it comes to access. I don't have many issues in my life right now but this one gets my goat and I do look at it as a reason to fight.

I agree with you about letting the issue get settled and have chosen that path. We work behind the scenes to make a difference and one day hope that this issue will be put to rest. Like Dave R says, "Owning the beach is like trying to own the sky".

__________________
"You are your choices"
www.lifeonshore.com
http://bobbyjblog.com

I just mean to say that heading to the beach with a towel and a weapon is not the answer. By all means, make your opinion known to the "powers that be". I think a little understanding and courtesy goes a long way. I agree that people should be allowed to use the beach, but in a way that is respectful to the people who paid a high price (and high taxes) for what many believed to be an exclusive right to their "yard". In the good ole days people just did not mind sharing- now they do. I don't really understand what changed the climate so dramatically. Some combination of density and land value and lack of civility, I suppose. Question- Why isn't the customary use of the beach stated anywhere on the deed? That would seem only fair!

It isn't stated on the deed because it is only in the last few years that it became an issue.

Don't know if this is due to a demographic shift, a change in attitudes, or just more density, but the "ME, ME, ME and screw everyone else" attitude needs to go buh-bye!

__________________
The enemy is ignorance.

My deed has all sorts of restrictions and a clause about who can access, sidewalks, etc. I just wonder why nobody bothered to point out the publics' right to customary use. Surely it is not a stretch to inform a landbuyer about the parameters of ownership. How many real estate sales people would even mention such a thing? I just feel like people were misled, intentionally or not. I personally think that the land south of the vegetation line was not anyones to sell in the first place. Why in the world were plats drawn in this way? I agree that you can not own the sky- but if the government allowed somebody to make money selling it, something stinks. Now that I think about it- all the buildings south of 30-A that block the view are actually "taking" something that should belong to the public. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. That and 5.00 will get you a cup of coffee.

First, I have not heard anyone even tease with the idea of bringing a weapon to the beach regarding public usage. No one. If you don't care about your rights, move on. As Herman Caine's grand father used to say, "them that's going to town, get on the wagon. Them that ain't, get the hell out of the way."

The reason you won't see customary use on a deed is because it something that is readily observable with his or her own eyes. I believe customary use comes from common law, something which this Country's laws were founded.

__________________

The weapon I was refering to was the comment about taking golf clubs to the beach. I was being sarcastic, as was the poster of the comment ( I assume). You mistake my position as being against customary use. That is not the case. I am just saying that being all p.o.ed at the homeowner who thought that the plat of their property meant something more (or different) from what they assumed, is sort of shortsighted. Why not question why some plats were drawn to the high water line? That does not make sense to me from the get- go. I really wish the entire beach had been left undeveloped south of whatever the beach road happens to be, 30-a, Beach 98 whatever. But the money in beach developement was just to tempting and now the deal is done. If I happened to be a beach property owner, I would not mind folks using my yard as long as they were respectful and cleaned up after themselves. I just hate to see people so angry at the homeowners that really do feel that they were duped somehow. We all have to live together. Try to have a little understanding for those who differ from your view and mine. I don't think you need to be ugly to anyone, myself included.

I guess what really throws me is how someone could purchase something and see people out back and then begin to complain about the people out back.

I really wish someone could explain it to me to help me see the other side of this debate. I would or will try to be very objective but for 2 years have not heard one argument that made sense to me.

The best argument I have heard has been about the density switch north of the beach in Blue Mountain. When the buyer bought he had no idea that a large development would happen north of him and shuttle all the owners to the beach near his home. I can somewhat understand his concern and issue but still do not understand how he could not understand the customary use issue making his point mute.

I feel the claim of a private beach is false and misleading. We shall soon see.

__________________
"You are your choices"
www.lifeonshore.com
http://bobbyjblog.com

As I have said before, I just do not believe that everybody understood the customary use thing. It should be explained to potential buyers just in case. This will make for much better relations going forward. What we as long time residents take as a given is not always obvious to the newcomer. I am for a free and open to all beach situation, but let's stop the crazy platting of lots that invite controversy, or at the very least , hard feelings. I am just saying that the beach homeowner does not always have horns and an effort to work our differences out in an agreeable way will be to everyones benefit. I hate to have to be ill with our neighbors!

I agree. This is one area that it seems some buyers were really mislead. It looks like another disclosure for us. CUSTOMARY BEACH DISCLOSURE

__________________
"You are your choices"
www.lifeonshore.com
http://bobbyjblog.com

Thank-you Bobby! I just was saddened to see all beach front owners painted with the broad brush. Some are actually mean spirited, some are just bewildered. I hope this deal is worked out soon-- We do not need a public tug of war at this point in time especially. Peace! And Happy Valentines' Day.

Bobby J, I hear your points. However, with the TDC (tourist development council) advertising our Award Winning beaches in national publications, trying to draw people in from the entire south east USA, beachFront owners cannot be so short sighted to think about only the density changes on the tiny area north of 30A in South Walton. Surely, they recognize that tourism depends upon a much larger draw of people coming to those very beaches which they try to claim for themselves. They also must realize that the new PCB airport will even expand the TDC's marketing area as far north as New England.

When I walk down the beach, I don't stop and pull out a legal description from the Clerk of Courts office, to see if the trash I'm about to collect is on private property. The biggest issue for these deeded owners, IMO, is that with people, comes trash. We must all do more than our share of keeping the beaches beautiful, and that includes collecting and disposing of waste, which isn't our own. I see many people actively involved in that, and it makes me happy. I hope more people will take lessons from those who are setting the good example.

__________________

With traditional easements, they are noted on surveys. It sure would make things much more simple if the lower beach area of the properties were also noted on surveys, then everyone would have a clear and precise knowledge. Without this, a property owner, who's property boundary is the mean high water mark, has no idea where that boundary is on any given day without daily surveys, because it changes daily, as it is a 13 year moving average.

I know there most Gulf front owners are wonderful people, and we are talking about only a few, but the issue of Customary Use on our beaches, will affect every inch of beach in South Walton in some capacity. I certainly don't intend to portray all beach front owners as some evil, greedy bat-urds, as most are not that way in any capacity.

__________________

I have not read the plan, and I don't live in the Blue Mtn neighborhood. This is on the BCC agenda for Feb. 24. Posting here because there is some interesting language included - see the phrase about the intent of the plan. Anyone out there know what it means for the public's right to use the beaches in Blue Mtn??

" 1.BLUE MOUNTAIN BEACHFRONT (BMB-1) NEIGHBORHOOD PLAN (NP.BMB-1) – AN ORDINANCE AMENDING SECTION 2.03.02 OF THE WALTON COUNTY LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE TO ADOPT THE BLUE MOUNTAIN BEACHFRONT (BMB-1) NEIGHBORHOOD PLAN AS AN OVERLAY DISTRICT; ESTABLISHING A DEFINED BOUNDARY; ESTABLISHING THAT THE INTENT OF THE PLAN IS TO PRESERVE THE BLUE MOUNTAIN BEACHFRONT TITLE AND CHARACTER, PAST DEVELOPMENT PATTERNS AND LAND USES, AND THE SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING DESIGNATION THAT IT NOW HAS AS A RESIDENTIAL PRESERVATION AREA (RPA) IN THE WALTON COUNTY FUTURE LAND USE MAP (FLUM) SERIES; ESTABLISHING THAT THE INTENT OF THE PLAN IS TO PRESERVE THE BLUE MOUNTAIN BEACHES FOR USE BY THE PROPERTY OWNERS IN BLUE MOUNTAIN BEACH SUBDIVISION NO. 1, ESTABLISHING THAT THE USE IS A PERMISSIVE ONE AND VESTED PROPERTY RIGHTS SHALL NOT BE ABUSED; ESTABLISHING PROVISIONS FOR VESTED TITLE AND PROPERTY RIGHTS; ESTABLISHING PROVISIONS REGULATING NEIGHBORHOOD BEACH ACCESSES; ESTABLISHING PROVISIONS FOR MINIMUM AND MAXIMUM LOT SIZES, SETBACKS, BUILD-TO-LINES, LOT COVERAGE, BUILDING HEIGHT, ALLOWABLE DENSITIES AND ACCESSORY STRUCTURES; ESTABLISHING PROVISIONS FOR USE MIX FOR COMMERCIAL AND WORKPLACE BY SIZE AND LOCATION; ESTABLISHING PROVISIONS FOR STREET WIDTH, PARKING REQUIREMENTS, VEGETATION, ARCHITECTURE AND LANDSCAPING; ESTABLISHING PROVISIONS FOR AMENDMENT; ESTABLISHING A PROVISION PROHIBITING THIS PLAN FROM BEING SUBJECT TO ANY PART OF, OR TO ANY OTHER PLAN FOR BLUE MOUNTAIN BEACH SUBDIVISION NO. 1; PROVIDING FOR THE INCORPORATION OF THE BLUE MOUNTAIN BEACHFRONT (BMB-1) NEIGHBORHOOD PLAN AS APPENDIX NP-2 TO THE WALTON COUNTY LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE; PROVIDING FOR SEVERABILITY; AND PROVIDING FOR AN EFFECTIVE DATE.

My understanding is that this would limit the use of the beach to owners (and guests I would assume) within the platted subdivision, and also limits the physical access structures to same. It also states that the right to use the beach is a permissive one granted by the gulf-front owners to their neighbors within the subdivision and not a customary use. This would be for the properties between Redfish Lake and the Blue Mountain Beach Regional Access located at the end of CR 83.

Thanks.
Wow, that is amazing. The beginning of the end.

So is anyone going to fight this so we can hear from blue mt beach vagrant?

__________________

Calling John R!

__________________
The mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open.

I don't want to rehash all the crap I learned about the actual ownership of the beach for that stretch, which all can read on the actual deed, if you actually read in depth about the developer dissolving and reversion of the ownership...yada, yada, yada.

However, Customary Use by the public is an entirely different beast, than rights to ownership. My guess is that some influential owners in that subdivision, are trying to prevent users/owners of Redfish Village from crowding the beach in that area.

I've been using that beach for years, and never been asked to move or leave. Essentially, that is what Customary Use is all about. The public using the property.

__________________

Looks to me like that might change.

Not unless they want to call the cops and my me and the other frequent users arrested and taken to court. I'm getting a little tired of the mess, and maybe it is time for someone to get arrested for quietly enjoying the beach.

__________________

In an attempt to clear up the discussion about the Blue Mountain Beach neighborhood plans I would like to note there are two plans, BMB-1 and BMB-2. The BMB-1 plan mentioned above is a plan being proposed by beachfront property owners that would include just beachfront properties. However, not all beachfront property owners decided to take part in the process. This plan would limit the use of the beach to owners and guests within the platted subdivision. And there is at least one beachfront owner in that area who has asked people sitting on the beach behind his house to move!

The BMB-2 plan is being put forth as a plan for the entire Blue Mountain Beach Subdivision #1. That plan basically mirrors county rules and regulations and says nothing about the beach. It in no way restricts use of the beach. Some individuals involved with the BMB-1 plan have asked to be excluded from the BMB-2 plan but that has not happened, as they are part of the subdivision.

Neither of these plans has been before the Planning Commission so they certainly are not yet about to go before the BCC. If they are on a BCC agenda it is likely because there was an assumption they would have been before the Planning Commission by now. But twice the BMB-1 plan has been scheduled to be heard by the Planning Commission but both times the plan has been withdrawn. Presently it is scheduled to be heard by them on April 9th. The BMB-2, which has no impact on the beach, is scheduled to go before the Planning Commission on March 12th.

I can certainly understand wanting to find ways to keep a development further inland from using your neighborhood as the designated access point to funnel all of their guests onto the beach.

I CAN'T understand pitching a fit about someone using the beach near your home when it doesn't preclude your use. I saw one of those "private" signs while walking along their deserted beach - and wished I'd had more liquids before my walk.

__________________
The enemy is ignorance.

The BMB-2 plan is less restrictive in nature than the one proposed by the beach front owners, IMO. It is also in the the interest of good neighborhood planning and proper land usage. I do not understand how a partial neighborhood plan can be considered for a platted subdivision but I am told that this is the case. If so, it is certainly not in the interest of good neighborhood planning and development as two plans could be at odds with one another in both goals and functionality. This would appear to be the case in these two plans.

__________________
Speak out freely...Hold to the truth...Question boldly.

Right on Andy A.

I think it is worth posting this section again. I'm no lawyer but it looks like to me like this would codify a precedent into the land development code about beach use being permissive rather than customary. If the BCC were to approve something like this, it would be one more hurdle to get over to establish customary use on the county's beaches, something the TDC has asked the BCC to look into. Owners in other parts of SoWal who think they have "vested property rights" to the beach would then assert their right to grant or deny "permission."
And never mind the larger issue. If I were a second or third tier owner in the subdivision, I would be very worried that my use might be deemed "abusive" one of these days and I would lose my "permission."
And aren't those neighborhood accesses county owned? Is the county going to give over control of them to these beachfront owners??
I sure hope this one goes down.

What I find most interesting about this is that the original Plat for Blue Mtn Beach S/D No. 1, PB2, P41, describes the boundaries of the property, which do not include the beach. The southern boundary is described in the Plat as, "...thence in a northwesterly direction along the bluff line of the Gulf of Mexico."

__________________

I love it! Put that in your pipe and smoke it you silly private beach folks!

__________________
The enemy is ignorance.

In lieu of BMBV's attendance to this discussion, I would recommend you searching the OR on the Clerks site for the first property east of the Blue Mountain Beach Regional Access. I am referring to a summary judgment issued in 2007 and deed recorded on September 12, 2007. The original property lines you described above have been modified to now got to the waters edge. Don't shoot the messenger.

Oh, I've seen that paper trail, but if the original plat of the sub-division never included the beach, how the hell could it suddenly be included later in time?

__________________

Good question, SJ. There is a similar situation in Seagrove, west of 395. The original Cube McGee plat didn't include the beach there either - lots went to the bluff. There are four contiguous lots there that now go to the MHW.
I'll be surprised if we don't see more of this.

I am told one of the Blue Mountain Beach beachfront property owners, a former lawyer, went into court stating the developers had 'intended' to give the beach to the subdivision and asked that the judge award him that property seaward of his home to the waters edge. Of course the developers, long since gone, were not there to say otherwise. I'm not sure anyone knew this was happening. At any rate since no one objected, the judge awarded him the property. After that many of the Blue Mountain Beach beachfront property owners marched into court making the same request. They got the same results. Pretty amazing! I am also told some of those new deeds do stipulate ownership on behalf of the subdivision, some don't. Did the developers own the beach to begin with? Hope that gets looked into. Why don't all the deeds read the same, other that they were handled by different lawyers? How do you prove someone intended to do something years ago? Lots of questions.

This my point exactly. Why not acknowledge the root of this problem? Lot lines were drawn without regard for general beach use by the public. I just can not believe that this was an innocent "ignorance" of the long term impact on the local economy and quality of life for residents. To rely on customary use as a safeguard is not much comfort to me. I think the lot lines should be limited to a reasonable distance from your building footprint. If the past can not be fixed, let's at least not continue down this bad path.l

I don't know the legal ins and outs but Richard covered what I had heard. The final result was the same. In addition to the Summary Judgment, the actual deeds themselves have a different legal description now.

I've read through most of the deeds, and the talk about the beach property going to the deeded beach front owners, then reverting back to the entire subdivision if the developer ever dissolved. It has been a year or two since I read all of that mess, so I may have that reversed, regarding the "ownership" pre and post developer dissolvement. However, I never found anything in the original plat regarding the ownership of the beach, and the beach is certainly not included in the legal description as I read it, in any form or fashion. The original plat does acknowledge that all avenues, streets and accesses (beach and Lake) within the boundary of the sub-division are dedicated to the perpetual public use.

__________________

link to original plat

__________________

SJ, the link doesn't seem to work.

__________________

Thanks, gayboi. Sorry, I forgot that the Clerk of Courts' site isn't user friendly re linking. It may get screwed up in attempting to bypass the disclaimer.

Try this >>>click<<<
Then, in the blue box to the left, select "Book Page."

Under Book Type, select "Plat"

Beside Book, type "2" (only the number, not the " ")

Beside Page, type "41"

A list will pull up and click on the hyperlink for the first item on the list. A new page will pop up. Go to the "settings" at the upper right, and a pop up box will appear. Beside the question, "Which image viewer would you like to use?," select pdf, then click "ok."

Back on the main screen, click "view image."

Remember that you can zoom in to read it closely, and pan around the screen.

__________________

Added to SoWal.com home page.

This subject just keeps coming around and I feel compelled to say something, I'm not fighting, just putting another take on this issue. I feel sorry for some of these people, seems there's another side of the story that you may not get to hear.
We have friends that sit beach front. We've talked with them about how did this beach issue happen? Here's the info that they gave us: They purchased their property somewhere in the late 70's or early 80's. Lot of area to be had at that time. This area was slowly building. Did Walton County buy in---as you can see not much. We've looked at their property warranty deed, which states a distance of X amount to the mean high water line of the Gulf of Mexico, thence go X amount along the aforesaid mean high water line etc... it reads like these people by deed own their beach. They think that all this mess came about after Dennis. Every beach front property owner that was left standing after this storm had to pay out of their pocket to shore up their property. (This included the sea walls--another issue. In talking with our friends, we found that Walton County didn't have a plan in place to cover the proper way to handle this situation, most were on their own. (Surprised us that Walton Co. never thought a storm would ever affect these people). Storms had affected this area before and FEMA helped to restore the dunes that were washed away by Opal, I believe. It's been a while since we talked about this). Most of the property owners went beyond the call of duty. Sand (another issue) was brought in to rebuild the dune system, plants were planted, and they believe that they did the best they could considering lack of rules for them to use. Some people did some good things and some people did some bad things. They told us they didn't want the seawalls, but had no idea what to do, they were just left standing there. They needed guidance, but there was little to be found.
Any how, here comes the mess. This started people saying that all beach front property owners should be washed into the Gulf of Mexico including their County Commissioner. Shame on the seawalls. Shame on the sand--shame on everything. A lot of property owners sit in complexes and sub-divisions. These areas have been sharing responsibility for the properties for quite sometime. Everyone backed out on this issue and starting saying, that's your property not ours, (seems to me that sums that up by a few people) we're not paying for any of it. So, here we are today. People feeling angry that they were abandoned and also dealing with other people that have the attitude of entitlement, I guess. There is one person in their complex that actually rubs it in their face, that he's sitting on their beach (could sit anywhere else) and it didn't cost him a dime. Kind of hard to take, I'm sure.

Two bits for our friends, they have never asked people to get off the property. They do go down and clean up after people that leave trash and such all over the place. The feel that they have been tagged as the bad guys, when really they don't feel they did anything wrong. They had to do what they had to do.
I can't imagine what would have happened to this area, what if all those gulf front property owners had not dug deep into their pockets and basically rebuilt the beach. Cost of $100,000's of thousands, depending on the area. Life savings, college and retirement money gone, for some, they're still paying for that storm. I would not have wanted to vacation on a beach that was ravaged by mother nature. It was a very sad situation and horrible to look at the destruction caused by Dennis. I just wonder what people would be saying if they had not made an attempt ( good or bad) to restore the coast. Bet a lot tourist dollars would have been lost, as well as jobs, and business. Our friends just sit quietly as people throw stones at this beach front group. As in everything, you have your people that are trying to do right (the largest number I believe) and then you have those that cause the grief (which maybe rightfully so).
IMHO, maybe those who attack these people should have to live (not rent or vacation) on the beach and face the obstacles that come with the turf. I think there are 2 sides to this story and both have their pros and cons. I guess you have to look deep and ask yourself, if that was my home, what would I have done and how would I feel about the negative attacks that come your way. I think some people act nastier than others. Maybe you have to walk a mile in their shoes to understand all the mixed emotions that come with the turf.
Best of luck to our non-trouble causing friends, we hope people will start distinguishing between the trouble makers and others that are just caught up in a bad situation.
Hope this doesn't make you mad that I've talked openly about your problems.

I am not asking the beachfront owners to pay for anything - the reason they had to "shore up their property" wasn't because of our demands, it was because their homes were undercut by the storm surge.

Millions and millions of tax dollars are being spent on beach renourishment projects and the nicest looking stretch of beach in the area is the one where we let nature take its course and fix the beaches naturally.

The only thing I am "asking" of beachfront owners is that they stop constantly biatching about people using the beach, going "mine, mine, mine," and messing with endangered species in violation of existing rules and regulations.

I know that some beachgoers behave inappropriately and cause problems, but those people misbehave wherever they are - frustrating us all.

__________________
The enemy is ignorance.

majah, I think that most people I talk to about the issue agree that a minority of gulf front owners are causing the problem, not the majority. Personally, I think that those gulf front owners remaining silent, while not raising stink about people sitting on the beach, need to speak up against the minority who erect no trespassing signs on the beach, if they wish to continue to be able to go to a grocery store, have their hair done, play golf, eat out, etc. If non-deeded Gulf front people are banned from the beaches, we will see every business around here dry up, and you can forget about services of any kind.

__________________

Thanks for acknowledging the fact that's it's not all property owners. I think my friends may like to hear that people are aware that it's the few that's causing the problem. They don't want their business to go bottoms up either. I'm not in full agreement with the actions that were taken after the storm, but don't think that they deserved being bailed on and then rubbing it in their faces. Some people are just not nice.

One last thought and have to focus on the books, sometimes it would be nice to read a thank you or we appreciate whatever. It always seems to be about the things we don't like. It's like having kids, you have to stop and give a little praise or you end up creating a kid that never feels as though they have done the right thing. No appreciation can equal bitterness. There's a lot of good here and a little bad. Thanks for letting me say my peace. Have a good day to all.

There always seems to be the apologists who tell us "it is just a minority or small group of people who are causing the problems". Be it Seaside, Gulf Place, Blue Mountain, Grayton, etc. I have never spoken with anyone in these "groups" and I've tried to find them.Of course, you can go to county meetings and witness the hand-wringing and horror first hand, but why subject yourself to such nonsense. You have to remember some people have no shame. They do not care about you, your family, your business or job, the community.... Nothing but themselves. They will always bring up money, taxes, and their rights. They will get the police, hire lawyers, and I ll be damned, they'll burn the whole place down to keep anyone else from enjoying it. (just figuratively) I have taken the liberty to exagerrate, but I believe some of you know what I mean. I know it sounds bad, but too many people who don't belong here have arrived and they're staying. Locals know exactly what I'm talking about, but no one wants to say it. And here is another news flash, just because you live here doesn't make you a local. Being a local means more than an address. It is a state of mind and can take a while to develop. Some people get it right away and some never get it. This area is still a special place with the people to match, but thank the heavens I don't have to be here all the time. I related the stories about Pandora's and Salty Dog to my friends in Greece a couple of weeks ago when visiting Tinos, and they just laughed and rolled their eyes. And we sat and listened to a band playing in the public square t'ill midnight. They had more pressing things on their mind, what fish to have for dinner?